I remember a time when fabs like this (well not quite as complex) would have all been built in the US... this was a time when we actually gave a rats ass about stuff like jobs and trade deficits and being a technological leader. But that was many decades ago and now all we care about is saving 1/2 penny or two on the cost of this component and that for our precious devices.
@Hazdaz GF is in the middle of building a more complex, yet considerably smaller facility in New York. They already own one of similar complexity in Dresden.
Hell, TSMC could have just bought AMDs fabs, along with Chartered, for less than what it's costing them to build this new one.
@Hazdaz I somewhat agree with your point, but the dynamics are not that simple. Sure "cheaper" drives a lot of decisions, but what's going on right now in the semiconductor biz is that most companies, especially new ones, can't afford to build ANY fab, especially if it's going to be obsolete in few years. That's where foundries come in. By serving lots of semiconductor vendors, a foundry can afford to make that investment.
The part that I agree with you about, is that since these factories are so automated anyway, I don't see why a TSMC equivalent can't exist in the US. Intel still uses US fabs, so it can done.
There is no such thing as a "free market," so I truly hope that you don't buy into that nonsense... but you are right about bringing up Reagan. That bastard did more long-term harm to the US than any war, cold or otherwise, could possibly have done. We can thank him for our crushing deficits, crumpling infrastructure and trade imbalances that are only now being looked at. Some of us have been throwing up red flags over this crap for many years but everyone was too business to bother.
Taxcuts? Taxcuts for what? Corporate America already pays some of the lowest taxes of any country on the planet when you look at ACTUAL taxes paid (you know, with all the typical creative accounting that exists). The last thing we need is to give these guys tax cuts.
Tax INCENTIVES on the other hand, I am all for.... Tell companies that they can save $X if you build that factory here. Or help American companies get back into the game when it comes to technologies that they have fallen woefully behind in by spending money on R&D that is shared with government and business.
Exactly. INCENTIVES, not one sided corporate handouts. Simply spelled out: You do something that's economically (only long term need apply) beneficial for the country and it's citizens, and we'll give you a break.
@Hazdaz We do have fabs and new fabs being built in the U.S. Doesn't mean that you should expect other people in other places not to build cool stuff too. New York state is getting a new $2.5 billion 28nm fab in East Fishkill and there's plenty of fabs elsewhere in the country.
I am not saying we don't... and TSMC is obviously a Taiwanese company, so of course I don't "expect" them to build here in the US, but I am looking at it that more and more of these type of industries that used to be almost exclusively US-based and used to represent the high-paying jobs that would be employing Americas into the future, are now more and more based elsewhere.
@appsman Well, there's no reason there shouldn't be major tech companies in other countries apart from the US and Europe. This is a Taiwanese company so not really surprising they want to build a plant in Taiwan. And given that the devices that are made WITH these chips are going to be almost all put together in that area of the world, it makes (slight) sense to have the chips produced nearer.
That aside, I'm curious about the economics - I get that it's automated and doesn't have high labour costs (compared to the cost of the finished product), but where did that 9.3 billion on building it get spent - is *that* part labour-intensive? I.e. would it have been a 15 billion fab if they'd built it in a country with higher labour costs, even if it ends up costing the same to run?
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I remember a time when fabs like this (well not quite as complex) would have all been built in the US... this was a time when we actually gave a rats ass about stuff like jobs and trade deficits and being a technological leader. But that was many decades ago and now all we care about is saving 1/2 penny or two on the cost of this component and that for our precious devices.
@Hazdaz
GF is in the middle of building a more complex, yet considerably smaller facility in New York. They already own one of similar complexity in Dresden.
Hell, TSMC could have just bought AMDs fabs, along with Chartered, for less than what it's costing them to build this new one.
@Hazdaz The free market decided to go with Taiwan and what the free market wants it gets. Thanks Reagan.
@Hazdaz I somewhat agree with your point, but the dynamics are not that simple. Sure "cheaper" drives a lot of decisions, but what's going on right now in the semiconductor biz is that most companies, especially new ones, can't afford to build ANY fab, especially if it's going to be obsolete in few years. That's where foundries come in. By serving lots of semiconductor vendors, a foundry can afford to make that investment.
The part that I agree with you about, is that since these factories are so automated anyway, I don't see why a TSMC equivalent can't exist in the US. Intel still uses US fabs, so it can done.
@Hazdaz True that. US needs to get back it's pride and it's jobs!
How about some tax cuts?? It's about F-ING TIME!
@BigD145
There is no such thing as a "free market," so I truly hope that you don't buy into that nonsense... but you are right about bringing up Reagan.
That bastard did more long-term harm to the US than any war, cold or otherwise, could possibly have done. We can thank him for our crushing deficits, crumpling infrastructure and trade imbalances that are only now being looked at. Some of us have been throwing up red flags over this crap for many years but everyone was too business to bother.
@DrScope
Taxcuts? Taxcuts for what? Corporate America already pays some of the lowest taxes of any country on the planet when you look at ACTUAL taxes paid (you know, with all the typical creative accounting that exists). The last thing we need is to give these guys tax cuts.
Tax INCENTIVES on the other hand, I am all for.... Tell companies that they can save $X if you build that factory here. Or help American companies get back into the game when it comes to technologies that they have fallen woefully behind in by spending money on R&D that is shared with government and business.
@Hazdaz
Exactly. INCENTIVES, not one sided corporate handouts. Simply spelled out: You do something that's economically (only long term need apply) beneficial for the country and it's citizens, and we'll give you a break.
@Hazdaz We do have fabs and new fabs being built in the U.S. Doesn't mean that you should expect other people in other places not to build cool stuff too. New York state is getting a new $2.5 billion 28nm fab in East Fishkill and there's plenty of fabs elsewhere in the country.
@tekdemon
I am not saying we don't... and TSMC is obviously a Taiwanese company, so of course I don't "expect" them to build here in the US, but I am looking at it that more and more of these type of industries that used to be almost exclusively US-based and used to represent the high-paying jobs that would be employing Americas into the future, are now more and more based elsewhere.
@appsman
Well, there's no reason there shouldn't be major tech companies in other countries apart from the US and Europe. This is a Taiwanese company so not really surprising they want to build a plant in Taiwan. And given that the devices that are made WITH these chips are going to be almost all put together in that area of the world, it makes (slight) sense to have the chips produced nearer.
That aside, I'm curious about the economics - I get that it's automated and doesn't have high labour costs (compared to the cost of the finished product), but where did that 9.3 billion on building it get spent - is *that* part labour-intensive? I.e. would it have been a 15 billion fab if they'd built it in a country with higher labour costs, even if it ends up costing the same to run?