The left response - Americans are stupid and cannot think for themselves....odd.
The American people those who are smart and not delusional because of hope and change. Know for a fact anything govt touches is overpriced, under powered and taxed to death.
The reasonable response: across the world people have learned that for certain industries and services (health care, education, logistics etc.) government ownership is preferred because unlike private organisations they're interested in the well being of its citizens. Private companies want a profit; environment, stakeholders and long term effects be damned.
The media and politicians in the united states have convinced the populace that the government is bad, inefficient and out to take your liberties away. Nevermind the fact that the governments in Asia and Europe are being trusted and for a reason: they do a pretty good job at looking out for their citizens. Like, oh I don't know, providing healthcare that is better at half the cost... And it's all government regulated... Commies!!!
And before I forget. All those countries with cheaper, faster broadband? All because of the government. Looks to me like america, one of the few countries without much government support in this area, is a clear example why you need more government investment and less corporate interests.
Oh yea, let's lake some reports from newspapers and infer from that the quality of health care.
Or we could look facts, at health care spending per person and notice this is almost twice as high in the united states as any other nation. Is it twice as good? He'll no
As someone from the UK I am unaware of any hospitals or clinics closing (save to be replaced by shiny new ones). From my experience the NHS has always been brilliant at treatments and service, and 92% of people here agree with how it is funded and run (BBC 2009).
Amazing, you do not know how to search Google News, yet you read Engadget. Funny thing is, is that all the stories are in hours ago, I figured I would get some from March which is when the big closures were talked about.
Anyways, just don't get cancer and do not want to go into your doctors office that day you are sick and I guess your healthcare is awesome.
I am with you 100%, but the big problem here in the us is that we are thought from an early age to fear communism, or socialism. We are thought that capitalism is the only way to get things done, and if a government wants to impose socialistic programs then whats next, they'll take my gun... etc. Combine that with propaganda from Fox and friends, some fake grassroots organizations funded by the biggest corporations, and the Republicans in congress stopping any progress in anything, and we end up with this POS government that cant get anything done. There are so many things to learn from our friends across the pond, in the UK, France, and Germany about how to run a good healthcare system, or maybe add in some workers rights to our laws. The hopes for the country to change are diminishing, since after all, historically speaking those reps are supposed to win some seats this elections. Republicans only care about corporate profits, and whats best for the big wall street guy, but yet they have so may people brainwashed into thinking that Liberals want to put communism in and take your gun away, blah blah blah.
I read through your link and found NO articles about the NHS closing hospitals or clinics. One article, from the NY Gazette of all places, talked about a ward loosing beds now that improved treatment times mean that patients can go home quicker.
Do you actually have any evidence to support your idea that the NHS won't treat cancer or see you on the same day? Because it just so happens that someone close to me went into hospital last week and was seen in half an hour (despite it being 1:00am), and cancer survival rates here are the highest in Europe.
@R2 D2 There's ample evidence of diseases that require advanced treatments having much poorer results in the UK and Europe. Cancer and cardiovascular surgery are shining examples. Sure, they have a better system for the average person with the average cold, but we have a far superior system for the truly amazing medicine. The problem with this country is that we've tailored ALL of our medical facilities towards this high end medicine. There are very few, if any, basic clinics in many communities around this country.
Throw in the ridiculous cost of drugs along with the sheer amount of frivilous lawsuits and its no wonder our healthcare is so expensive.
And I hate to burst your bubble but if the US government took ownership of the healthcare in this country they'd eventually go broke or have to tax us to death, at least with all of the current deficiencies that exist in our system. The ONLY improvement we'd get from the government taking over is streamlining administrative tasks.
Oh I love that. You totally ignore the link then make up a newspaper and a article, there is no NY Gazette, there is a Daily Gazette in NY, but it has no such article. Then theres the fact that there is plenty of articles, yes there are a few that are just cutting a majority of their beds and their staff.
@FtL1776 And just to back up your statements I've been assisting in the cost cutting effort as a 3rd party IT consultant. It's definitely happening and will continue to happen.
Please show me an article from your original link that shows the NHS closing hospitals. I've already shown you there aren't any.
Here are some quotes from that NY article (the one you linked me to and then claimed I made up):
"But hospital chiefs say they plan to change the way services operate to make them more efficient, meaning patients will not need to stay in hospital as long and fewer beds will be needed. Harry Clarke, director of operations for scheduled care, said: "There are no plans to close Clifton Hospital."
"Chiefs at Blackpool, Fylde and Wyre Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust have insisted they have "no plans to close" the hospital, which provides renal care and dermatology services."
As for the second link you gave me after realising your mistake, the only result giving any planned closures to hospitals was a Guardian article, which mooted that one way of dealing with budget cuts caused by the recession (which would be felt exactly the same way under a privatised system) would be to move some hospital services to new polyclinics, saving money and placing them closer to the community. Again, to prove I haven't "made it up":
"NHS London proposes that by 2017 about 75% of all visits to casualty and 50% of all out-patient appointments, especially for long-term conditions such as diabetes, will be dealt with by a network of 100 polyclinics."
"The changes mean that as many as a third of the beds in London hospitals would disappear, he added. "We are starting from a place where we have [in London] too many beds already – significantly more than the rest of the population."
"Hospital bosses say this will mean "increased fast track rehabilitation" and "shorter stays in hospital"."
To highlight: If my wife gets breast cancer in the UK, her mortality rate is 88% higher. If I get prostate cancer my mortality rate is 607% higher in the UK than here.
In addition to that we have shorter wait times and a far greater access to new technology. The US averages 34 CT machines per million people while the UK averages 8.
Throw in the fact that over the past 34 years Americans have recieved all or part of all but 5 Nobel Prizes in Medecine and you can see why so many American's don't want the politicians mucking with their healthcare.
The top 5 hospitals in the US conducted more clinical trials than the rest of the developed nations hospitals IN THE WORLD.
If nationalized healthcare was so great then why did the Premier Williams of Canada fly to Miami to have heart surgery? Was Canada's medecine not good enough? What about all of the poor people in Canada? Do they not deserve the best cardiovascular surgery?
The day nationalized healthcare surpasses the free market in terms of quality will be a cold day in hell. I don't trust corporations and I don't trust politicians, but by leaving it up to the free enterprises with politicians keeping them in check we have the best combination. Remove the anti-trust exemption from the insurance companies and you'll see reform (in terms of price) "overnight."
I'd never heard of the NCPA before but it turns out that they are a "conservative think tank" who aim to "develop and promote private alternatives to government regulation and control". Not the least biased of sources don't you think? These guys don't even belief in global warming.
Let's take a more impartial source like The Guardian newspaper (well know for it's impartiality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_guardian), which in turn cites the World Health Organisation (the mother of all independent sources). This article points out that per person there are 151 nurses and doctors per 10,000, compared with 110 in the US. The same goes for hospital beds, 39 per 10,000 verses 31. Life expectancy at birth here is 80 verses 78. It's true that the US just beats the UK on cancer but there is a much bigger difference in cardiovascular mortality in the UK's favour. Obesity rates in the US are also higher by about 10% but I guess this isn't as directly linked to healthcare.
If you want to throw in celebrity endorsement Steven Hawkins regularly cites the NHS as saving his life and generally being awesome.
Finally, given the populations of the UK and USA it would be much fairer to compare medical advances of the whole of Europe with the whole of the USA (every EU state has a national health scheme of some sort, as does every other developed nation world wide). Not that this is particularly relevant to how people benefit from these advances.
@R2 D2 LOL!!!! THE GUARDIAN, "IMPARTIAL"??? Its the biggest roll of leftist toilet paper in Britain, and everyone knows it! You just gave yourself completely away. Oh and I have confirmed that you've made up everything you've posted here - not a word was taken from the non-existent "NY Gazette". But lies are all you commies have, isn't it? A little hint: a tech blog, where IQs tend to be higher than normal, isn't the best venue for your propaganda.
Ahh yes the British health care system the champion of the liberal left. The damn NHS is broken and leaking at the seams. That is why they are trying to dismantle it and go private. As someone who has visited and have the majority of my family in England, I can attest that the NHS is a broken entity. The socialist free loaders who infect the USA currently hear and feel but do not think about the ramification of taking the socialist path.
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money [to spend]." - The Iron lady aka Margaret Thatcher.
Now that we've thrown 'em off the trail, use the form below to get in touch with the people at Engadget. Please fill in all of the required fields because they're required.
The left response - Americans are stupid and cannot think for themselves....odd.
The American people those who are smart and not delusional because of hope and change. Know for a fact anything govt touches is overpriced, under powered and taxed to death.
@nastro
The reasonable response: across the world people have learned that for certain industries and services (health care, education, logistics etc.) government ownership is preferred because unlike private organisations they're interested in the well being of its citizens. Private companies want a profit; environment, stakeholders and long term effects be damned.
The media and politicians in the united states have convinced the populace that the government is bad, inefficient and out to take your liberties away. Nevermind the fact that the governments in Asia and Europe are being trusted and for a reason: they do a pretty good job at looking out for their citizens. Like, oh I don't know, providing healthcare that is better at half the cost... And it's all government regulated... Commies!!!
@nastro Oh come on look at British Healthcare, its not like they are closing down any clinics and hospitals... oh wait sorry.
@Freefalll
And before I forget. All those countries with cheaper, faster broadband? All because of the government. Looks to me like america, one of the few countries without much government support in this area, is a clear example why you need more government investment and less corporate interests.
@FtL1776
Oh yea, let's lake some reports from newspapers and infer from that the quality of health care.
Or we could look facts, at health care spending per person and notice this is almost twice as high in the united states as any other nation. Is it twice as good? He'll no
@FtL1776
As someone from the UK I am unaware of any hospitals or clinics closing (save to be replaced by shiny new ones). From my experience the NHS has always been brilliant at treatments and service, and 92% of people here agree with how it is funded and run (BBC 2009).
@R2 D2 http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1C1GGLS_enUS364US364&q=nhs%20closing%20hospitals&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=nws:1&source=og&sa=N&tab=wn
Amazing, you do not know how to search Google News, yet you read Engadget. Funny thing is, is that all the stories are in hours ago, I figured I would get some from March which is when the big closures were talked about.
Anyways, just don't get cancer and do not want to go into your doctors office that day you are sick and I guess your healthcare is awesome.
@Freefalll You would be right except for the fact some governments are more efficient then others.
@Freefalll
I am with you 100%, but the big problem here in the us is that we are thought from an early age to fear communism, or socialism. We are thought that capitalism is the only way to get things done, and if a government wants to impose socialistic programs then whats next, they'll take my gun... etc. Combine that with propaganda from Fox and friends, some fake grassroots organizations funded by the biggest corporations, and the Republicans in congress stopping any progress in anything, and we end up with this POS government that cant get anything done. There are so many things to learn from our friends across the pond, in the UK, France, and Germany about how to run a good healthcare system, or maybe add in some workers rights to our laws. The hopes for the country to change are diminishing, since after all, historically speaking those reps are supposed to win some seats this elections. Republicans only care about corporate profits, and whats best for the big wall street guy, but yet they have so may people brainwashed into thinking that Liberals want to put communism in and take your gun away, blah blah blah.
@FtL1776
I read through your link and found NO articles about the NHS closing hospitals or clinics. One article, from the NY Gazette of all places, talked about a ward loosing beds now that improved treatment times mean that patients can go home quicker.
Do you actually have any evidence to support your idea that the NHS won't treat cancer or see you on the same day? Because it just so happens that someone close to me went into hospital last week and was seen in half an hour (despite it being 1:00am), and cancer survival rates here are the highest in Europe.
@R2 D2
Because you know, socialism is bad, and that type of healthcare is not good for you (sarcasm)
@R2 D2 There's ample evidence of diseases that require advanced treatments having much poorer results in the UK and Europe. Cancer and cardiovascular surgery are shining examples. Sure, they have a better system for the average person with the average cold, but we have a far superior system for the truly amazing medicine. The problem with this country is that we've tailored ALL of our medical facilities towards this high end medicine. There are very few, if any, basic clinics in many communities around this country.
Throw in the ridiculous cost of drugs along with the sheer amount of frivilous lawsuits and its no wonder our healthcare is so expensive.
And I hate to burst your bubble but if the US government took ownership of the healthcare in this country they'd eventually go broke or have to tax us to death, at least with all of the current deficiencies that exist in our system. The ONLY improvement we'd get from the government taking over is streamlining administrative tasks.
@R2 D2
Oh I love that. You totally ignore the link then make up a newspaper and a article, there is no NY Gazette, there is a Daily Gazette in NY, but it has no such article. Then theres the fact that there is plenty of articles, yes there are a few that are just cutting a majority of their beds and their staff.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1C1GGLS_enUS364US364&q=nhs%20closing%20hospitals&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=nw
Theres some more help.
@FtL1776 And just to back up your statements I've been assisting in the cost cutting effort as a 3rd party IT consultant. It's definitely happening and will continue to happen.
@FtL1776
Please show me an article from your original link that shows the NHS closing hospitals. I've already shown you there aren't any.
Here are some quotes from that NY article (the one you linked me to and then claimed I made up):
"But hospital chiefs say they plan to change the way services operate to make them more efficient, meaning patients will not need to stay in hospital as long and fewer beds will be needed. Harry Clarke, director of operations for scheduled care, said: "There are no plans to close Clifton Hospital."
"Chiefs at Blackpool, Fylde and Wyre Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust have insisted they have "no plans to close" the hospital, which provides renal care and dermatology services."
As for the second link you gave me after realising your mistake, the only result giving any planned closures to hospitals was a Guardian article, which mooted that one way of dealing with budget cuts caused by the recession (which would be felt exactly the same way under a privatised system) would be to move some hospital services to new polyclinics, saving money and placing them closer to the community. Again, to prove I haven't "made it up":
"NHS London proposes that by 2017 about 75% of all visits to casualty and 50% of all out-patient appointments, especially for long-term conditions such as diabetes, will be dealt with by a network of 100 polyclinics."
"The changes mean that as many as a third of the beds in London hospitals would disappear, he added. "We are starting from a place where we have [in London] too many beds already – significantly more than the rest of the population."
"Hospital bosses say this will mean "increased fast track rehabilitation" and "shorter stays in hospital"."
Seriously, read this stuff before you post it.
@chripuck
Where is your "adequate evidence" please?
@R2 D2 I knew you'd take the bait.
Just one of many articles, with ample sources at the bottom... http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba649
To highlight: If my wife gets breast cancer in the UK, her mortality rate is 88% higher. If I get prostate cancer my mortality rate is 607% higher in the UK than here.
In addition to that we have shorter wait times and a far greater access to new technology. The US averages 34 CT machines per million people while the UK averages 8.
Throw in the fact that over the past 34 years Americans have recieved all or part of all but 5 Nobel Prizes in Medecine and you can see why so many American's don't want the politicians mucking with their healthcare.
@R2 D2 Additionally:
The top 5 hospitals in the US conducted more clinical trials than the rest of the developed nations hospitals IN THE WORLD.
If nationalized healthcare was so great then why did the Premier Williams of Canada fly to Miami to have heart surgery? Was Canada's medecine not good enough? What about all of the poor people in Canada? Do they not deserve the best cardiovascular surgery?
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2510700
The day nationalized healthcare surpasses the free market in terms of quality will be a cold day in hell. I don't trust corporations and I don't trust politicians, but by leaving it up to the free enterprises with politicians keeping them in check we have the best combination. Remove the anti-trust exemption from the insurance companies and you'll see reform (in terms of price) "overnight."
@chripuck
I'd never heard of the NCPA before but it turns out that they are a "conservative think tank" who aim to "develop and promote private alternatives to government regulation and control". Not the least biased of sources don't you think? These guys don't even belief in global warming.
Let's take a more impartial source like The Guardian newspaper (well know for it's impartiality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_guardian), which in turn cites the World Health Organisation (the mother of all independent sources). This article points out that per person there are 151 nurses and doctors per 10,000, compared with 110 in the US. The same goes for hospital beds, 39 per 10,000 verses 31. Life expectancy at birth here is 80 verses 78. It's true that the US just beats the UK on cancer but there is a much bigger difference in cardiovascular mortality in the UK's favour. Obesity rates in the US are also higher by about 10% but I guess this isn't as directly linked to healthcare.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/mar/22/us-healthcare-bill-rest-of-world-obama
If you want to throw in celebrity endorsement Steven Hawkins regularly cites the NHS as saving his life and generally being awesome.
Finally, given the populations of the UK and USA it would be much fairer to compare medical advances of the whole of Europe with the whole of the USA (every EU state has a national health scheme of some sort, as does every other developed nation world wide). Not that this is particularly relevant to how people benefit from these advances.
@R2 D2 LOL!!!! THE GUARDIAN, "IMPARTIAL"??? Its the biggest roll of leftist toilet paper in Britain, and everyone knows it! You just gave yourself completely away. Oh and I have confirmed that you've made up everything you've posted here - not a word was taken from the non-existent "NY Gazette". But lies are all you commies have, isn't it? A little hint: a tech blog, where IQs tend to be higher than normal, isn't the best venue for your propaganda.
@psycros
Whatever you think of the Guardian the World Health Organisation is a difficult one to refute. And, once more, here is the gazette: http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/blackpoolnews/Hospital-beds-to-go-in.6473369.jp
@FtL1776
Ahh yes the British health care system the champion of the liberal left. The damn NHS is broken and leaking at the seams. That is why they are trying to dismantle it and go private.
As someone who has visited and have the majority of my family in England, I can attest that the NHS is a broken entity. The socialist free loaders who infect the USA currently hear and feel but do not think about the ramification of taking the socialist path.
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money [to spend]."
- The Iron lady aka Margaret Thatcher.
@R2 D2
The best thing about the NHS is the fact if I brake my leg, I don't need a mortgage to fix it.
@nastro
Can you give us any evidence for anything you just said? Particularly that anyone is trying to privatise the NHS? Thanks.