New higher res PowerBook displays having problems?
By Ryan Block 
posted November 28th 2005 10:05AM
posted November 28th 2005 10:05AM
Ok, so apparently some people are having some weird horizontal line issue with those
new Apple PowerBooks that have the
higher res, higher brightness displays — apparently it's
even something that's been spotted on display models in Apple stores. Frankly, given the gallery of pictures of the
issue, we can't really see much of a problem going on there; then again, it may well be one of those things you have to
eye in person to properly perceive. Anyone out there noticing this problem on their new PowerBook? Let's get to the
bottom of this, shall we?
[Via The Inq]
Looks like you need a magnifying glass to see the problem. At some point, you have to wonder if some of the problems of current electronics (Ipod scratches, x-box 360 overheats, this) are manufactured media stories..?
It must be a Microsoft problem, a conspiracy again Jobs or maybe Aliens, but don't try to blame Apple or some girls here will commit suicide.
I haven't noticed anything on my 17".
The problem is that the displays are cheaper quality than what apple has always used. My dell LCD at work has always had the same issue. Quality is what you hve always paid for with apple and it is disappointing they have dropped the ball on the new powerbooks. I've noticed the lines, or almost a dithered look, on every new powerbook I've seen.
hawk-eye always have problem to see that LCD. My PowerBook (Pismo) look fine to me. Only thing it's not too bright as new Powerbook does.
I have a brand new 15" Powerbook, and I'm not experiencing any difficulties like this. Not at any brightness level or anything..
The problem is there. I bought the new powerbook last week and immediately noticed the lines. At first, i dismissed it as a fluke because my friends didn't notice them. However, after reading the apple dicussion boards, it seems like are a lot of people who are also bothered by the lines.
Here's a really good test image to showcase the problem.
If you viewed this image on a powerbook the image on the right would become smooth if you lined up the lines with the lines on the screen.
The problem is that there aren't enough people who notice the problem for apple to feel compelled to do anything. So everyone loses. :|
I have this "issue" on my PowerBook. I also have it on my other LCDs (both Apple and non-Apple), my ViewSonic CRT monitor at work, and my TV. ALL screens show these lines if you look closely enough. It's more apparent on the new PowerBook as these are extremely bright and crisp compared to most laptop LCDs, and you tend to work much closer to them than desktop monitors. Turn up the brightness and get right up close to ANY monitor (LCD, CRT, whatever). You'll see these lines if you look hard enough.
This may be relate to the brightness of the displays – stronger backlight more details on the screen?
My brand new 15" has this problem... I actually went through three before I got one that worked completely, and they all had the lines on the LCD.
I don't really notice it any more so it doesn't bother me all that much, but there's definitely a quality issue there. It looks like alternating rows of pixels have different brightness.
I don't know what #7 is talking about, I've never seen anything like this on any monitor. Sure, there's a grid on other LCDs, but this is more pronounced than that.
of course all lcds have lines (the spacing between pixels), but these lines are different. do you have the new powerbook? I wasn't looking for the lines, but i saw them immediately.
if you put a half tone image (grey) if you look closely you should be able to see lines that are about 3 pixels apart. People have taken pictures of their powerbooks and you can actually see the luminosity is around 5% darker every 3 pixels. This is a manufacturing defect and is a known problem for incorrectly calibrated lcd screens.
Apple has had lcd problems in the past. I bought the 15" AL, when it first came out. Lots of people denied that white spots were a problem, but they were there. So are these lines.
I saw it the first week I had my new powerbook, but honestly I forgot it was there until you mentioned it.
I do not believe you are correct #7. True, lines like such would be seen on crt monitors and tv if you get up close to them, but that is part of how those type of displays work and manufactured. LCDs on the other hand just have an array of pixels, if you were to get up close enough all you would be able to see would be a grid pattern on the display. I have not seen those lines on any LCD monitor i have owed or any my friends have owned. I have however seen it on some laptops, mostly on lower-end ones. I can only think they are using cheaper displays, any one know who manufactured the displays for apple?
Those lines are caused by a high refresh rate. I don't have an apple, but if you can lower the refresh rate (preferably to 60 Hz), the lines should disappear. I purchased an LCD monitor and had the refresh rate at 75 Hz and had those lines. I lowered it, though.
I fixed "the problem" to inperceptable level by recalibrating the display in expert user mode - in colorsync
I actually had this exact same problem a few months back with an A series vaio (17 inch 2nd gen xblack lcd screen) i bought, i brought it back to the store and exchanged it for a smaller FS series (15" same 2nd gen xblack) and no more lines to be seen. Strange things, couldn't stand seeing the scanlines.
It's not a bug, it's a feature. Apple has/had a thing for horizontal lines...
http://www.landsnail.com/apple/local/design/design2.html
http://www.xmission.com/help/screenshots/macosx/macosx3.gif
I hope engadget will post Gary's image I'm curious to test it out.
The only issue I have with the new pb 15" is that if I stare at it long enough I see some sort of crazy 3D dolphins come flying out of the screen. But you have to sit just right and kinda let your eyes go out of focus or even a little cross.
I work at an apple store, and we have not received any back for this reason. I hope this problem doesn't persist or we are going to be busy....
How about you buy me a new Powerbook, and then I'll let you know? k?
#17 sorry here's the picture. It wasn't created by me so i can't take credit. click name for link.
its http:// crankycat.com/pb15_problems.png if you can't
I have a dell inspiron 6000 with 1680x1050 res, and it exhibits this behavior... HOWEVER, I actually really like it. Call me crazy but I think it looks cool. :) I can see how it would be a major issue if you were worked in graphics, but I don't, so rock on, brothers.
Well, I have seen the problem on my new PowerBook, which was built to order. I went to an apple reseller afterwards to see if it was the same with all PowerBooks, and it was. This is nothing to do with refresh rate, this is a flaw in the construction of the display. It probably will never be acknowledged by Apple.
There is a problem with some PowerBooks, yes.
Some, more pronounced than others.
I have the lines—maybe in better condition than others report, BUT you only see them if you are 6–8 inches away or closer. You absolutely CANNOT see them from a foot away, even with 20/15 vision. Nope. Nada. No how.
Take it with a grain of salt. Oh, and acidscan, you're right, it IS Microsoft's fault :)
I bought my 15" PowerBook last week and it has this problem too. :( I already had to return the first one due to a different display issue. Should I take this one back too?!? What's going on Apple? We pay extra $$ for your machines because they are supposed to be high quality. This blows.
I haven't noticed any problems on my 15" powerbook (yes, it is the new model) It has been turned on nearly non-stop since I got it, and I ordered it the day they announced the new models.
Damn apple products... what is up with them and lines on their products?
I have a 17" and everything looks blurry if not run at max res. I bought mine at Apple store. Curse the people who stole my 15".
Smaller pixels, same borders between them - where's the problem boys?
Looks fine on the 17"
Gary;
Thanks for the png link...
I just want to clarify this. If there's nothing wrong with the display that png file appears completely normal? And if it has the defect you can see a pronounced banding?
Currently, I see nothing of issue at all.
thanks for the help.
A friend of mine showed me - it was very definitely noticeable using the pb15_problems.png image that Gary linked to. It's not noticeable on everything, but it's 100% there in that image at least.
A lot of people will say these problems don't exist, just because, well because they don't notice these problems. At the risk of generalizaing, it's typically the same crowd who claim 1) 30 fps is the maximum the human eye can see, 2) 60Hz refresh (on a CRT) looks no different than 120Hz, and 3) any resolution above 1024x768 is just too "small". In short, they're simply ignorant about the problem.
But it does seem to be real on at least some PBs. I stopped by my campus store this morning and confirmed it on a display model. If you're perceptive and care about the image quality of your LCD displays, it doesn't take a magnifying glass and you don't have to be looking for it to notice it going on.
The horizontal lines don't exist on the 17" its just the 15". to #27, thats what i thought at first, which only made me a little bummed. But if you look at the picture that i posted, you can acutally see, thats not the case. the screen has the potential to look great, completely smooth, and no perceptable border. But it doesn't because the lines aren't caused by "borders" but rows of pixels that are darker than the next. maybe a class action suit is needed to fix the problem.
Some other weird problems with my new 15" is i've had numlock turn on w/o the numlok light turned on. and when i hit numlock it never turns off. The only solution i've been able to find, is to do a restart.
Just bought a new Powerbook, and I havent had any issues with it yet. And if you are waiting to get the Intel Powerbook - I encourage you to get it now...They are amazing!
Check out my website by clicking on my name!
Hey Asher,
On a good display none of the interference/banding is shown in the image. On the new powerbooks there is heavy banding and interference for the orange boxes.
The image on the right has lines across, which you can basically counteract the bad display to create a "clean" image.
If worse comes to worse, maybe someone can create a core image filter, to make the bad displays look good.
Gary;
Thanks for the troubleshooting help.
I was beginning to think my eyes had gone bad. I made several moire patterns in Photoshop to see if I could create a banding as well as 3 solids... Nothing. Glad to know I've got a good display.
I've got to say the brightness on the new ones is intense. And can see how it accentuates many image flaws. So a "minor" banding issue according to apple would mean a major issue to a user.
To those who think this is just endemic to LCD's - click the read link and look at the pictures. This is not just the "screen door" effect. It's actually on every other line of pixels - it looks like every odd line is slightly brighter the the line of pixels previous. It might even be some sort of bad dithering algorithm (though if these are 6 bit panels, that's a problem in itself given the market).
The example they show with the ESPN logo pretty clearly illustrates one way that it's a problem for professionals. Though I could think of a lot of cases where faint white stripes would cause issues when doing graphics or photography work...
I'd like to thank Engadget for bringing to attention the first acknowledged flaw in my four-day-old 15" PowerBook, a flaw that I hadn't noticed myself but that, now that I have, bugs the hell out of me.
Many of the APPLE forum boards on these subjects are being locked so I thought I'd add my comments here. I am finding that I am not the only person who is quite unhappy with a few aspects of this new machine.
The 15" display is NOT up to the standard Apple set with it's previous lineup. My previous PowerBook (which I now regret selling) was a 1GHz TiBook, which had a display which was not only more clear - not suffering from horizontal lines - but it was also brighter and not warped.
Video display: if I drag a finder window/safari window I get a distinct slow tracking effect. Very 1970's but not what I would call normal for a 128MB video card. My 32Mb Vram eMac does not even show this.
My new Powerbook's display is actually warped, sitting 3+mm above the keyboard on the right hand side when closed. This looks and feels cheap; NOT the quality exhibited on previous PowerBooks.
The actual PowerBook case must be warped by about +1mm on the lower left side. Needless to say, I am not typing this message on my new computer as it rocks back and forth!
The faulty track pad - do I really have to go in to this issue? I believe it is well known. I do ever remember a trackpad just randomly not responding.
More annoying than that is the single button below the trackpad. When I click on it, I can feel it grinding against metal! It is uneven and also rocks back and forth.
Hard drive noise. As this is a different and faster HD than my tiBook, I am trying to believe it is natural however it is quite distracting...too much clicking and popping. It does not sound "healthy".
Audio. My main complaint is that I can hear the HD noise through my headphones as well as a very distinct static noise. I am glad I am not an audio engineer! In addition there is an audible "tink tink tink" noise with every keystroke when typing in text edit etc...what in the world?!
I am a graphic designer who had a full time job as well as my own business as a freelance designer. I do rely on my Mac and am scared (how else can I put it) - there are so many faults on this machine, but from what I am hearing there are MANY models like this one in the wild. What can I do?
Thanks for your time.
I wrote a quick little app that overlays alternating white lines with 5% alpha on the entire screen. It improves certain areas but it makes others worse. It's possible that the problem is more complex than this, but if not, and someone can figure out exactly what kind of filter needs to be applied, I can write an app that'll do it. I'd be happy to post code if someone else wants to take a crack at it too -- there's not much to it.
Try tilting...
I went back the the png file and tilted my machine until I was at a very low angle to the screen and could then see the added lines. This may be a display angle issue more than anything else. To those of you who have the problem try rotating your pb on the vertical axis and see what happens.
And to chicago2sweden, that pb has been dropped, perhaps more than once.
I just got my Last week and i've noticed the lines on lighter background colors and menu colors.
It can be subtle, but for a designer it can throw them off in their designs involoving horizontal design elements.
Is there a fix for this? Will apple recall all of their powerbooks?
The filtering app is a clever solution although would that throw off colors. Colors are important for graphic artist caues they need that acurate color feedback
I just got my Last week and i've noticed the lines on lighter background colors and menu colors.
It can be subtle, but for a designer it can throw them off in their designs involoving horizontal design elements.
Is there a fix for this? Will apple recall all of their powerbooks?
The filtering app is a clever solution although would that throw off colors. Colors are important for graphic artist caues they need that acurate color feedback
I have this same problem on my PowerBook. I tried to tell Apple about it, but the people at the store claimed that they couldn't see anything. Bloody crooks. I used to love Apple, but now....
I do hope that they do some sort of recall, if only so that I can go up to those ignorant people at the store and say, "I told you so!!!"
dsn,
I'm really interested in your filter app. Is there anyway i could get a hold of it? you can email me at gtsang AT cs.utexas.edu
This problem happens on my 2 year old powerbook, so it's definitely not the new displays... just user settings. I recommend using colorsync to fix it, or lowering the refresh rate to 60hz.
Earth to people... Apple ain't gonna spend a whole lot on new PowerPC products when they got Intel stuff down the pike. Sure, they'll be new products based on PowerPC, but the budgets just got cut, big time. I'm suprised they didn't start using lower quality LCDs sooner.
The only thing I'd buy from them right now is the mini, and thats only so I don't feel so bad about spending yet again when the intels come out.
The problem is real. Hundreds of customers are complaining and are returning their Powerbooks.
The problem affects October 2005 15" Powerbooks only, apparently on batches wk 40+. I returned my first Powerbook (W8544) and received another (W8548) with the same problem.
The problem is that every third line of pixels is lighter than the other. Try visiting espn's site and look at the gray part of the logo. Move the window around a bit, ideally a pixel up or down at a time. Do you see the lines disappear and reappear? See the forums at macrumors and apple discussions for more help in demonstrating the issue (search for crankycat, who is hosting an image that makes the problem obvious).
I think that the line problem is important for us to complain about because
1) No other computer manufacturer sells bad screens like this. By returning your defective product, you are sending your message in dollars that this Apple product is not worth the money.
2) The lines really do distort what you're seeing and isn't good for you. Look everyone, every third row of pixels has a noticeably lighter tint to the rest of the screen. It distorts the way we see smooth curves (look at the curved lines of the default blue desktop background image -- it's jagged) and some folks even complain of a headache. And for professionals who use the screen for as many as 12 hours a day... it's a bit much to put up with.
By looking around at the entire laptop market, AT MINIMUM the product should have a proper quality screen.
I just wish Apple would fix this. Don't ya'll?
Boohoo... cry me a river.
Get an Cinema Display if you want to work on graphics. Problem solved.