Blu-ray not merging with, thumbs nose at HD DVD. Again.
By Ryan Block 
posted Apr 21st 2006 11:29AM
posted Apr 21st 2006 11:29AM
Both sides have announced, built, and even begun selling their devices
-- if you don't think the next gen optical war between HD DVD and Blu-ray for the high definition living room hasn't
already begun, well, you're probably not a regular here. But just in case there was any hope that these two
factions would come
together and truce before too late turned into too too late, well, sorry, consider those hopes dashed;
according to Panasonic CEO Kazuhiro Tsuga (pictured right heading to work) regarding unifying with HD DVD, "We are
not talking and we will not talk," and that "the market will decide the winner." Just like that. You hear
that Toshiba? Bring it on, they say. Man, we can't wait to start reporting all the flaming-bag-on-doorstep incidents
that are so going to occur between Blu-ray and HD DVD executives.
What Market are they talking about?
I ve seen a few "HD-DVD Now On Sale" banners but not any BRD banners...this may be enough to sway the ignorant masses
Competition is healthy. Hopefully it is the consumer who wins from all this (unless you are a poor sucker who adopts too soon and drops $$ on the wrong format).
I wish I could go to work everyday and be shot at. It would at least make the trip a little more exciting.
Yeah, how 'bout we just not buy any of them and wait for holographic disks?
#2 - Why is it swaying the ignorant masses. You make it sound is if there is a huge technical difference between the two formats. There isn't... they both work the same way. The only technical benefit blu-ray has is more capacity, which isn't a selling point for a movie player, and 1080p, which is even less of a selling point. Hardly any of the 1080p capable sets on the market will work with their spec anyway.
When you consider how few HD capable homes there are out there, then you consider how few of those are hardcore HT enthusiests, very few people are going to drop $1000 on a movie player.
I think anyone who bys the new format in the first year will deffinitely regret it. The only reason I can see for someone to buy either one of these formats is to buy a PS3. Sony and the BRD camp are going to bank their success on the one device. Sony will sell as many BRD players as they can produce with the PS3 for the first year it is on the market and since these devices will be considered affordable BRD players when you consider the fact that it's a next gen gaming system as well.
If the PS3 is as popular at the PS2, Sony will sell at least 100 million of them in the next five years. If that's not a winner, than I don't know what is.
On second thought, the majority of homes still do not have HD TV sets to even watch these fancy moving pictures float across their screens. The soonest the majority of the market will even think about buying a High Definition player will be the day after thanksgiving, and we all know what's going to be hot on peoples minds that day.
#6, you're wrong in one aspect. HD-DVD's that are out are 1080p. Says so right on the packaging. So that's not an advantage for the Blu-Ray camp.
You miss the few things HD-DVD has going for it :
1. Its already on the market. Even though supply is short, it's actually available now.
2. Price. Stand alone HD-DVD : $500, HD-DVD drive : $100 (estimated based on the X360 story), HD-DVD movie : roughly $20-$25. Blu-Ray stand alone : $1000, Blu-Ray drive : $500 (as reported today), Blu-Ray disc : $30-$35 from the pre-orders I've seen.
3. BD+ : people keep forgetting about this. Do you want Sony to keep upgrading the firmware in your device without your permission? They can with BD+. There is no equivilent technology built into HD-DVD.
Winner seems clear to me, PS3 or no PS3. It's like saying UMD will supplant DVD just because the PSP uses it.
Isn't the HD DVD smaller then the Blu-ray when talking about storage? I think that will decide who wins and looses.
Microsoft had the chance to put a HD-dvd reader in its xbox 360, But they said it wouldn't do it after all the pre-orders were in. That move could have changed the course of this format war. Now SONY is still promising to put a BRD player in the PS3 which is a quite a gamble because of the hit they'll take on PS3 sales.
In my own opinion, the Blue-Ray format can store more information, easily allowing to have a fully authored Standard-Def and Hi-Def DVD on a single disc. It is also easy to manufacture backward compatable DVD players, because all hey need to do is add in another prism. one to read Standard Def and One to read Hi-Def.
since both can easily store a movie in 1080p HD-DVD will win this because it is cheaper however BRD will win in the computing/gaming market where storage space is more important with games such as UT2004 taking > 15GB already the next generation will only be bigger.
The two formats can live side by side, in peace...
... or we could have one massive game of UT 2007 cross platform PS3 players v Xbox 360 to settle this once and for all :rolleyes:
just my 2pence
Phil
Screw both formats! Its nothing but a way to price gouge the consumer! DVD's just went mainstream 5 years ago and people are quite content with their collection. Also how much more hi-def can you get with these new formats? I mean right now if you have a decent Television and a DVD that was transferred properly it looks pretty damn good. If you do buy a new next-gen player you still need to purchase an extremely expensive TV to notice any difference. We should all make a stand and go completely digital with Divx and Xvid.
#2
Quite the opposite. It seems Sony is just targeting the higher end consumer. BD adds easily 5 to 1 over HD adds in in various magazines as well as advertisements as well as various review sites banners. Sony knows they dont need to target Joe consumer with 1000$ products when the ps3 will take care of that.
You would be surprised how many people bought the ps2 just because of the dvd capability (as crappy a player as it is).
Where as the HD is an optional attachment to a different entity (great for those who have one). But dont bank on people buying an xbox + attachment separately to get a player for 500$ when they can buy one flat out.
And my personal opinion is that HD screwed itself by releasing a crippled version at product launch.
BD seems to have the right audience targeted and a price tag to match. HD is going for the typical consumer at launch. (foolish with a first gen 500$ price tag especially as most average consumers dont even have the underlying base to take advantage of the new format)
True winner wont be known for some time.
I think invaderluj hit it the nail on the head. Many people are giving the general public way too much credit. Like most products the general public is not going to dig into the specs. They wont understand them anyway.
It's just as likely or perhaps more to come down to something as simple as the name. The public thinks they know what HD is. In fact products that have nothing to do with High Definition are adding HD to the name because the public is already associating it with 'better'.
The public is likely to look at HD-DVD and say "I get that it's HD and HD is good right?" then look at Blu-ray and say "Uhh ok it's blue so what?"
I know you all are saying these things as best you can understand them, but I work with both formats, and when you start putting your own high-def content on a disc, you'll soon realize that even a single layer 25GB disc is barely enough.
The Last Samurai is already on a double layer HD-DVD... with HD-DVD we'll still have to use two discs for extended movies, and movies with lots of extras. Sure a 25GB or double layer 30GB is enough for a 1080p movie, but what about all the special features and extended editions... HD-DVD is already running out of room with a standard movie.
Once you start using the formats you'll understand, we need an easy 25GB to begin this high-def journey, and we'll be using 50GB for movies before you know it.
As the future holds higher and higher amounts for Blu-ray, I can clearly see after using the technology, Blu-ray will be victorious.
I know it's an old argument, but Beta was definitely better (at the time, at least) for quality but people still chose VHS overwhelmingly because they could fit more on the tape.
I think the more important question is, "Does the public really care about this new format?" Nobody seemed to care about SACD and DVD Audio, and will the generaly public really be able to notice a major difference between HD-DVD/BRD and standard DVDs?
Yep, the gaming consoles choice of drive isnt' really going to mean diddly in this matter.
And I recommend people just not buy at all, until a standard has come to fruition.
You might see one format become the 'blank media' recorder, and the other become DRM pro content only. And there is one aspect where both factions are actually on the same side- squeezing out the small to medium content producer who cannot afford to make and market for both formats.
"The only technical benefit blu-ray has is more capacity, which isn't a selling point for a movie player,"
Huh? Apparently you have absolutely no clue how much space high-def content requires. A two hour movie alone can easily push 25GB. That's without any extras.
Yeah yeah, talk about mp4, blah blah blah. Those new codecs are mainly good for *low bit rate* encoding, i.e. you will get better quality for things like web downloads. At the bit rates required for artifact-free HD, the file size is not really going to be much different. I encode this stuff every day, so I'm speaking from experience. You can get *good* quality from an HD mpeg4 file that's about half the size of an mpeg2, whereas if you dumped that much data from the mpeg2 you'd end up with garbage. But for real pristine HD quality, both files will need to be about the same size.
Given that, it's still just as desirable as ever to have as much storage space as possible. What you will end up with, and what Sony will no doubt encourage as much as possible, is either more extras on BD discs, or better quality. My guess is they'll just push for more extras, since studios will probably try to save money by only encoding once, in whatever lowest common denominator codec that both formats support, and extras are a better marketing gimmick anyway. (Sony and Pioneer have both been touting the data rate of BD vs. HD, so you never know what they'll focus on - the early adopter crowd are the ones who care most about quality.) But either way, you will get more and better things from BD discs.
The Market? I have been reading these press releases and articles, especially those comparing HD-DVD and Blu-ray adoption to that of VHS and DVDs.
Hello... The problem is, you need an HD TV in order to take advantage of these new HD optical formats and players. When VHS and DVDs came out, they worked with the TVs everyone already had in their house, so there was a HUGE market to tap into. With HD-DVD and Blu-ray, the number of households with HD TVs is extremely small today, and will be for some time to come.
There is no "Market" (at least a mass market). These companies are likely hoping (planning?) that HD optical players will help drive HD TV sales (since it is essentially a prerequisite), but that will take some time. I expect it will be another 5+ years before HD TVs are in enough homes that HD optical players have a real "Market".
Until the HD standards "settle", there won't be much adoption of HD TVs or HD players. When talking with friends/family about when they plan to upgrade to HD TVs (and accessories, like HD drives), they tell me they are in "wait and see mode". There are just too many "unknowns" in the HD world today (i.e. 1080p needs to be supported as the default for ALL HD TVs, DRM issues like HDMI need to be finalized, etc.).
glacia00, you beat me to it! That's exactly what I've been saying.
Think like the casual consumer, without any knowledge or interest in specifications. They know what "DVD" is, they've got a handle on the term "HD". Hell, they might initially buy HD-DVD discs because they think their current Coby DVD players can play them. They don't know or care if their set can actually handle 720p, 1080p or 300zx. They will perceive an improvement over something they're already comfortable with.
BD has strong hand with PS3, but I don't think it's enough to put them on top for most casual consumers. The linchpin will be the price on the PS3. If it is prohibitively expensive, and MS can do the $100 HD-DVD add-on, I've got to think HD-DVD may come out on top.
It seems to me that many anti-Sony people like to compare Blu-Ray to Betamax and create the impression that Sony is going it alone on this one. Guess what guys Panasonic's parent company is even bigger than Sony and their in the same camp. Oh and BTW all you Mac types, isn't Apple also onside?
"The market will decide the winner" i can't believe it! Gojira-Tsuga and the others members/executives are counting on the upcoming release of the PlayStation 3 to open AND win the marketplace for the Blu-Ray Disc camp.
Cant see the PS3 being a decent Blu-Ray player, other companies are touting $1,000 price tags for a vanilla player, how do Sony think they are gonna pack that and the worlds most powerful gaming machine into a $500 box.
If they do, and it runs linux - I can pretty much imagine them all being snapped up by geeks wanting ultra powerful Linux Blu-Ray servers at 1/4 of the price of equivelent hardware. That would bankrupt Sony, Seriously I dont think they could afford to put a 'proper' blu-ray player into the PS3 at their suggested $500 retail price, certainly not this year.
Is it the fact that you're American that means you can't see the dodgy racist ground you are on by depepicting a Japanese man as Gojira (Godzilla). You might aswell have him as a ninja.
Question? What are they going to do, if we the "public" decide to NOT to buy either format? Seriously? No long-winded boycott speech, just the possibility of that "scenario" happening. Panasonic and Toshiba maybe the manufacturers with money, however, it is we the "Fickle Public" that will make the final decision. Arrogance has nothing to do with it.
The problem is that people have no incentive to ditch their dvd and buy any of these products. It's not as large of a difference as going from a VHS to DVD. Most people wont even notice the difference except for the price.
Really, I see this as the next laser disc (they are still great products). But until the prices get down, more extras are on the dvd's besides the usual (ooooh, you get to see the trailer!), and they enter the data management sector of the pc world (i.e. hd dvd-w) they will have a hard sell on their hand and certainly it wont be decided by who's first.
WTF? remember 8-track tapes? Yea and how about LP's yea, somone will buy that shit, obsolete or not, that format will be like a floppy in 10 years anyway. Only thing that really counts is what the movie store will rent out. Then that only counts for home theater people. I mean how many people can play VHS on thier computer? It could turn out HD-DVD for non pc stuff, and blu-ray for PC. Stating how this will turn out only makes you look silly, like Bill gates in 1981 "640 of memory ought to be enough for anyone".
i predict neither take off. people already can't really see any difference between dvd and these new formats. if they do, is it really worth spending the extra cash? they'll both fade off into obscurity much like SACD and DVDA.
It seems that the content distribution companies believe that control of their format will somehow help them to maintain control of the distribution of their property. They only have to look back at the DVD encryption key debacle (my former company's software MPEG player was blamed for cracking of the encryption codes), to think that they have to do everything possible to lock things up for as long as possible, and somehow perceive that avoiding a common platform will somehow help them to preserve this security. From a bigger picture perspective, this is really narrow thinking, and the market for high definition content will take a LOT longer to develop, which essentially minimizes their return on investment, both with the new format, plus with sales of older DVD formats, since consumers aren't going to want to buy twice (or 3 times), but no doubt there's a much warmer, fuzzier feeling from taking the restrictive path.
If anything, Apple being in the BD camp spells doom for Blu-Ray, since Apple always picks wrong--DVD-RAM? Wrong! DVD-R over +R? Wrong! Regressing to single layer DVDR in the MacBook? Wrong!
Good thing too, since BD+ is terrifying.
Overall;
Who gives a dren.
DRM-crap sony format is not going anywhere near my home, and theres no chance in hell I am rebuying my dvd collection just to get a slight resolution improvement.
HDDVD will die
And BluRay will die even harder.
DVD will continue to be mainstream for 5 years or more, then it will be replaced by something completely different.
Holographic discs, or maybe purely digital storage.
I HATE Sony and their PS3. I with HD-DVD.
I prefer Blu-ray. It has that 'You are swimming side by side with a giant blue stingray in the deep blue ocean' soothing feeling to it. I now know that high-definition must overtake the old normal definition because tiny words in movie credits for example can become a blur on our flatscreen TVs. High-definition can reveal more shaded colour, such as our lawn in front of the house with different shades of light and dark green. I'm happy with my VIERA Panasonic's 42in Plasma HD monitor that gives justice to high-defintion. Blu-ray movies and blank discs are being made en masse as we speak - or read.
HD-DVD will succeed, BRD will not. Yeah, you can compare it to the VHS/Betamax war.
I really despise Sony for their DRM blunder...
'nuff said
early adopters, buy now to help fund the death of:
1) analogue outputs (explicitly written in the AACS licensing agreements all HD-DVD and Blu-Ray hardware manufacturers must agree to after a period of so many years)
2) fair use (DVD all over again)
3) and help keep the content distribution cartels in business (and help fund their law-changing, granny-suing pursestrings) by buying early and buying often!
forget the specs rember the betamax and vhs war betamax had better tech specs but ultmatly lost the vhs had more of the industry backing it...
... by this logic bluray should comeout on top because it has more industy backing with movie studios and ps3 which should lead to more content appearing on the bluray format and also with more manufactures supporiting it the may be less problems with supply.
However HD-DVD could edge it because the are 1st to the market and are priced much cheaper for drives, players and discs
only time will tell...
Perhaps, in a few years when you can buy a combined HD-DVD/Blu-Ray, PLAYER/RECORDER, more people will have upgraded their display to HD and we'll see a greater incentive to invest.
Toshiba have back-up plans for building Blu-Ray machines (through another company, is it with JVC I read?) All other major companies are bound to have similar contingency plans, who's to say they won't be for hybrid players?
Finally, who's to say there won't be more than one flavour of holgraphic disk?
Samsung have already announced they will build a hybrid - neither format needs to "win" then.
lol to #38 (Arthur):
"I prefer Blu-ray. It has that 'You are swimming side by side with a giant blue stingray in the deep blue ocean' soothing feeling to it."
And thanks #16 (MuDoggy) for the Insider's insight.
Good to see that blu-ray's looking good.
Should do well for my blueray.bz and blueray.co.in domain names. ;-)