Alright, after a week of everyone going crazy-go-nuts (or not) over those new
MacBooks from Apple, we've got our first review from the boy at Ars Technica. They're rather glowing in their praise, but that might just be due to the
high amounts of heat this things puts out. That's right, for all their laptop innovations Apple doesn't seem to have managed to figure out how to keep these Dual Cores cool, and it looks like you might have to resort to
thermal paste shenanigans to keeps this thing cool enough to sit on your lap. Also, in Notebook Review's first impressions writeup of the MacBook they encountered serious instability from heat, making the laptop almost unusable. The only other serious problems Ars had with the MacBook were the relatively slow integrated graphics -- even though they were able to run more casual gaming titles just fine in OS X and Windows XP -- and the love it or hate it glossy screen. Otherwise, the laptop looks like quite the deal and a decent performer. Along with that
redesigned keyboard, the MacBook has a wider trackpad (how big are these things going to get?) and has an ability to do a "right click" by placing two fingers on the pad and clicking. The iSight, MagSafe and Front Row aren't anything different from the MacBook Pro, which is to their credit. In benchmarks the MacBook performs much closer to the MacBook Pro than its iBook predecessor, and its
easy expandability and multitude of pro-ish features make it fairly easy to recommend -- if you can stand the heat.
Read - Ars Technica reviewRead - Notebook Review impressionsRead - Macworld
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
mike @ May 19th 2006 11:28PM
of course, the heat issue is.. not an issue, if you have this thing on a table...
It's not really an Apple engineering PROBLEM as much as it is a DECISION..
You know, the thing is about an INCH thick. Burn your lap for design..
Jeff @ May 19th 2006 11:46PM
"It's not really an Apple engineering PROBLEM as much as it is a DECISION.."
Apparently you have never heard the term "laptop".
It's kinda like if Dell made a desktop computer that was 15 feet wide, and you were to say it wasn't so much a PROBLEM that it didn't fit on a desktop as it was a DECISION.
"You know, the thing is about an INCH thick. Burn your lap for design.."
Yeah, my Acer's about an inch thick too and it doesn't even get warm unless I block the vents. The fan isn't even on at all most of the time.
The MacBook may look nice, but its thickness means nothing in terms of heat output.
Jarod @ May 19th 2006 11:48PM
#2 You're right, you should stick to PeeCees.
Based on your decision making process, you're too dumb to use anything else.
"Difficulty with their products in the past?"
If you can't use an Apple product; the easiest most simple form of advanced engineering, then yes, even 'too dumb' is an understatement.
J. @ May 20th 2006 12:00AM
I'm personally getting pretty tired of the rather skewed view of Apple over here at Engadget. I've been reading the page for years and instead of honest to goodness journalism, you now clearly skew your page to the PC user. I don't understand how this blog was so good for so long and now it's warping it's stories. It's not being critical, it's skewed, sloppy journalism. The condescending tone of this post is clear of just that.
Keep the biased posts to yourselves and give honest reporting to your loyal audience. I'm really glad I read the Ars Technica review for myself.
leojsoap @ May 20th 2006 12:09AM
hmm, half of the reason I would purchase a laptop over a desktop would be to sit on the couch or in a vehicle, as usual with apple products these days, revision B should come along nicely (I'm typing this from a rev. B iMac G5, zero problems for the year i've had it)
I mark off on the integrated graphics crap as well, the only reason I would consider going Intel from PPC is to play newer PC games, that's not gonna happen very well on this thing, why no graphics upgrade option Apple? why!?
ah well, I'll just wait for whatever new/upgraded iMac comes along with OS 10.5
Bernie @ May 20th 2006 12:21AM
#5, don't read the posts that have to do with Apple then. If you've come to dislike Engadget, go read some other techno blog...
Dr. @ May 20th 2006 12:21AM
The MBP has the right click feature as well, it is an option that you can turn on in the System Preferences. I personally love my 17" MBP. The heat is annoying, but in the winter, I won't need to worry about getting cold, just take a seat, pull out the MBP and play some Mario or something.
SURVIVORlover @ May 20th 2006 12:24AM
Darn, I was hoping to pick one up. So is it that hot? I do assignments that takes about 1 - 2 hours so I dunno if someone can help me with this predicament...
azzy @ May 20th 2006 12:26AM
I don't understand how we have the ARS review, where they find the temp to be a perfect 62 degrees, and no heat issues at all, and the notebook review review, where there is overheating...and engadget writes that there is a heat problem. 1 out of 2 reviews???!!! I would HOPE that we could, I don't know --- WAIT to write this article until we had a bit more info than 2 reviews. But thats just the cynical scientist in me I guess.
uclatommy @ May 20th 2006 12:46AM
I think the reason why you feel the heat is because the laptop is good at dissipating it. I would rather have a laptop with good thermal conductivity to dissipate internal heat, than one that insulates it.
tehuti @ May 20th 2006 12:51AM
azzy, this is a quote from the ARS review:
"I then ran two instances of this script in order to peg both processor cores. The system would step the speed of the processor up to 1.833GHz until the processor crossed a threshold of approximately 82C at which point it would step the processor down to 1.667GHz. When the processor dropped below 80C it would speed step back up to 1.833GHz and the cycle would continue. As expected, this would cause the system's fans to rev up to their full speed and overall, the machine was very noisy at this point."
and
"I think that most people would agree that a machine running over 80C is not operating properly."
Both reviews acknowledged that the MacBook runs very hot. The only difference is that the one reviewer (ARS) did not experiece a system crash.
anthonysimilion @ May 20th 2006 12:54AM
#9 (azzy)
The arstechnica review clearly shows that the CPU is getting so hot that it is throttling down the speed:
"The system would step the speed of the processor up to 1.833GHz until the processor crossed a threshold of approximately 82C at which point it would step the processor down to 1.667GHz. When the processor dropped below 80C it would speed step back up to 1.833GHz and the cycle would continue."
It's also very noisy at these extreme temperatures. Other manufacturers using the same processor and similar form factor can have quiet and cool machines at full load, without thermal throttling (which is the processor saying to itself, 'I'm too hot, need to cool down').
Big Ed @ May 20th 2006 1:08AM
Well, the good thing is you don't need a women to get really hot anymore.
Ian @ May 20th 2006 1:28AM
Err... 82C #'s 11 & 12? Thats pretty damned hot in my book. 82C = 179.6F... Must have been a typo in the writeup or every laptop nowadays runs just shy of being able to boil water.
rijc99 @ May 20th 2006 1:37AM
For those of you who think Engadget has a rather skewed view of Apple... imagine if a company like Dell or Gateway had shipped a laptop that gets so hot the processor auto scales down and as a result has to be placed on the lap. I'd bet no one would hold back on negative reviews.
A laptop, especially a 13", should be able to be used as it's name implies. ON A LAP. If this thing is only to be used on a desk, I would get a desk top.
It just never ceases to amaze me the length at which an Apple supporter will go to defend Apple products. If a product is faulty, IT'S FAULTY. Call it for what it is.
A company that ships a product with such an obvious defect should be called to task. Be it PC or Apple or anyone else.
donut @ May 20th 2006 1:44AM
"A laptop, especially a 13", should be able to be used as it's name implies. ON A LAP. If this thing is only to be used on a desk, I would get a desk top."
Apple never called it a "laptop" it has always been referred to by Apple as a notebook.
tnkgrl @ May 20th 2006 1:50AM
I have both an Intel Mac mini (1.66 GHz Core Duo) and a MacBook (2 GHz Core Duo)... I tested for overheating by running CoreDuoTemp.app the Python script (2 instances for the 2 cores) mentioned in the Ars Technica article. Here are the results of my findings:
- Idle temperature after 15 minutes:
Mac mini: 52 deg C @ 1667 MHz
MacBook: 50 deg C @ 1500 MHz
- Temperature after 15 minutes at 100% CPU:
Mac mini: 90 deg C @ 1667 MHz
MacBook: 85 deg C @ 2000 MHz
The fan on the Mac mini was not even running at full speed. The fan on the Macbook was running but was surprisingly quiet.
The Mac mini was no warmer to the touch at idle than it was at 100% CPU. The MacBook was warmer to the touch at 100% CPu than at idle, but by no means too hot to burn my lap.
The MacBook was running on AC power.
I hope this settles that!
Reg @ May 20th 2006 1:51AM
#5 > I'm personally getting pretty tired of the rather skewed view ... instead of honest to goodness journalism ... this blog was so good for so long and now it's warping it's stories... skewed, sloppy journalism ... condescending tone of this post ... biased posts.
They have to keep Bill Gates as their number 1 fan somehow!
But seriously, look at their advertisers: almost all are competitors to Apple or offer products which do not run on the Apple platform.
Now you can call me cynical, but isn't it bad business to promote something your advertisers don't want you to promote?
SRD @ May 20th 2006 2:16AM
Many laptop makes can make latops small with the same specs that run nowhere near as hot. The sony SZ is even alomost a lbs lighter and has a dedicated GPU and gets nowhere near as hot. go to the review on notebook forums on the macbook pro it crashed 3 times because it overheated on the reviewer. the thing weighs over 5lbs there no reason it shoud overheat. and centrinos can run hotter than a desktop CPU. 60C is not much for a centrino 70C should be when gaming. 90C which the macbook can get is at almost the limit of the cpu before thermal failure. there is no reason at all for it to run that hot none. and i like apple products but to those that say that the case dissapates heat thats bull. its plastic which doesnt dissapate heat for crap its just damn hot.
Christopher @ May 20th 2006 2:18AM
Like somebody up there mentioned, the term being used these days is "notebook" and yes thickness has everything to do with a machines ability to dissipate heat efficiently. More surface area means more space to radiate. When you have a machine on your legs, which are also at about 98 degrees Farenheit and trying to regulate their own temperature, how can you expect not to have some discomfort?
capwkidd @ May 20th 2006 2:55AM
Odd, I checked out a Macbook, and could not get the 2 finger+Click to work, and no option found in sys prefs under touchpad for it... am I missing something?
kerunt @ May 20th 2006 3:25AM
What's the big deal about the right click on the touchpad? I've been doing that for over a year on my Acer AS1694WLMi. I can scroll by moving my fingers in certain (user defined) regions, I can assign functions (such as right click) and launch applications by hitting select parts of the touchpad, I can do anything I want with it. What's the big deal about Apple playing catch up?
And who cares wether it's called a "laptop" or a "notebook". It's the same damn thing, and if it can't be used as intended (read: on a lap), then it's faulty. You say it's called "notebook" so it is not meant to be used on a lap? Well I call it "white football", so head out to the field and throw yours a few hundred yards.
James @ May 20th 2006 3:38AM
@ #2
"Most good games come out for the PC only. Mac has few exceptions. I also don't appreciate APPLE's propreitary components and the difficulty experienced with their products in my past."
Haven't you heard the mac does windows too? (via Bootcamp)....as for propirietary systems, what are you referring to? Last time I checked, most components were standard to those in PC's.
Get your facts straight.
Isaac Cox @ May 20th 2006 4:01AM
From an independent point of view - owner of a Powerbook, iPod and 2 PCs - I think that the Engadget writers always seem to be biased in favour of Apple.
What I hate is that almost every blog descends into "I hate Apple - you suck" "No, your PC sucks" list of comments, which gets pretty tedious.
Shunnabunich @ May 20th 2006 4:14AM
donut (#17): Whether it's called a "laptop" or a "notebook" is pointless hairsplitting. The reason Apple calls its portables notebooks instead of laptops may be that they want to imply that the portables can be used in places other than your lap, such as a desk or car.
Anyway, I heartily agree that as innovative as they often are in some aspects of their hardware and software, Apple needs to go figure out what all the other PC makers are doing right, and then come back and re-engineer the MacBook and MacBook Pro so they don't double as space heaters. That's what my PowerBook G4 is for. Well, that and everything else I do, but yeah.
Matt G @ May 20th 2006 4:37AM
I've got myself a MacBook 2.0GHz (White)... just bought it a couple days ago. It does in fact get quite warm, hot you might say, but not hot enough to cause any serious discomfort, not even close to burning. I'm averaging about 60 to 70 degrees celsius under normal operating conditions, running Mail, Safari, iChat, iTunes all at once. It gets quite warm, no doubt, but it's not bad people, get over it.. Any notebook/laptop computer is bound to get warm. And I really like it, it's worthwhile with it's sleek, and slim design, i love it!
Matt G @ May 20th 2006 4:40AM
Oh, and thought I might add... it's not bad at all, as long as it's not directly on bare skin! If you're wearing shorts/pants or whatever, I don't find it as a problem. I can feel the heat, but it's totally bearable.
Marc Mayor @ May 20th 2006 5:30AM
Do Powerbooks have the same heat problem?
x23 @ May 20th 2006 7:18AM
"22. Odd, I checked out a Macbook, and could not get the 2 finger+Click to work, and no option found in sys prefs under touchpad for it... am I missing something?"
yeah i just looked in my system preferences and i see no such option either. personally i always liked the functionality that fruitmenu would give... a click and hold would bring up the right-click options. fruitmenu isn't Intel compatible yet however. firefox is the only app i can think of off the top of my head that natively allows the same functionality.
personally i don't think my 15" MBP runs much hotter than any Powerbook i have had in the past. i think it is actually cooler... though marginally. mostly due to it being faster and thus not reaching into the upper levels of CPU usage as much as G4 models would.
i will say it is much much hotter than my Vaio TR series *ever* got. that was actually a really nice laptop. never got hot. was completely silent... i'm actually wondering if it even *had* fans... as i never heard them. that was a fun experience (reverse switching to PC for a year) ... but managing an office of Macs with a PC wasn't really working out so well. that was my first taste of a glossy screen and integrated camera... and ever since then i was waiting for Apple to incorporate those features.
Goodman @ May 20th 2006 8:27AM
I went to see a MacBook at the Apple store, to see if it had a built-in mic to go with the built in camera (it did). The weird keys looked like they'd be a pain, but worked fine when I experimented. The shiny screen was annoying, but the bright store doesn't exactly replicate typical real-life lighting.
The first MacBook I went to had locked up in iPhoto. I signaled for help from an employee, and as he rebooted it, I commented "Good thing it isn't unstable like those Windows machines." He looked REALLY ticked and stalked off.
will chen @ May 20th 2006 9:13AM
thats kind of funny that you people say that macbooks arent designed to be used on your laps.
Its also kind of funny that you closer your eyes and tell yourself that this is perfectly acceptable for such a thin laptop.
Too bad almost no PC laptops overheat when used on your lap. I can vouch for every thinkpad T series (which is even smaller than the macbook - and a hell, HELL, of a lot more powerful than the macbook and macbook pro) that it doesnt even get warm when used on your lap during normal loads. Even during extreme loads, it doesnt get HOT.
Poor Apple fanboys, the more you bend over and let steve jobs sell you faulty products, the less of a chance that he actually sell a good one. Just look at the g4, Apple fanboys defended it to the death because Steve Jobs hailed it as superior to Intel offerings. Too bad the g4 wasnt that great - as witnessed by the HUGE leap that the core duo gave macbooks.
Joe @ May 20th 2006 9:31AM
Apple released a MacBook? Damn! Just when things were about to start getting crazy-go-nuts!
bprince @ May 20th 2006 10:18AM
x23- The 15mbp doest NOT have the 2 finger click option, the 17mbp does as well as the macbook(obviously). I assume that it's a software not a hardware issue but im no "macgenious." Anybody have any ideas on the topic...does the 17mbp touchpad look the same (size, etc.) as the 15mbp?
cracka @ May 20th 2006 11:30AM
Will Chen,
"thats kind of funny that you people say that macbooks arent designed to be used on your laps."
Well, I'm no enginerd, but I thought that all notebook/laptops were orginally designed for PORTABILITY - so that you were't chained to one location. You could always use your kb on your lap if you so chose. Today, when everyone bitches about weight, they're not saying "oh shit, i have a 6lb plastic box on my lap, i wish it were only 4lbs." No, they talk about carrying it around for work or travel. The only notebooks that aren't overly portable are the ones called "desktop replacements." Why? Probably becasue they weight 8lbs or more.
"Its also kind of funny that you closer your eyes and tell yourself that this is perfectly acceptable for such a thin laptop."
IMHO, I would expect a thinner shell to have more issues than a larger one when it comes to heat dissipation. Where are you gonna put all the fans in such a small case? Ever think about laptops vs desktop casings? Which one can handle heat better?
"Too bad almost no PC laptops overheat when used on your lap. I can vouch for every thinkpad T series (which is even smaller than the macbook - and a hell, HELL, of a lot more powerful than the macbook and macbook pro) that it doesnt even get warm when used on your lap during normal loads. Even during extreme loads, it doesnt get HOT."
I would love to send you any of the laptops i have had or have presently. They ALL get hot, whether it's from Apple, Compaq, Toshiba or Sony. Such is life. Guess what? There's a simple fix for the heat issue on your lap - it's called a lap desk.
Thanks for playing.
Jacob Varghese @ May 20th 2006 11:52AM
I know this has been talked about to death, but I have one last observation for everyone that says that Engadget is biased against Apple:
This post and the previous post are written by the same blogger (Paul Miller).
The last sentence in the previous post:
"So yeah, you can walk out the door with brand spankin' new Lenovo sporting an Intel Core processor, but it looks like you'll have to select quite a few options to get this guy up to the level of even the $1099 MacBook."
btw, don't forget the live blogging of every Apple event.
Go Engadget!
-mm- @ May 20th 2006 12:11PM
I can't believe all the "engadget is anti-mac" rubbish that's coming out. The heat /is/ an issue, they are just highlighting it as such. But then they go on to conclude:
"In benchmarks the MacBook performs much closer to the MacBook Pro than its iBook predecessor, and its easy expandability and multitude of pro-ish features make it fairly easy to recommend -- if you can stand the heat."
I'm sorry you guys are disappointed, but good reviewing depends on providing a balanced view, both the good and the bad. And /nothing/ is perfect enough to not have some negatives.
(This comes from a PC user who engadget has tempted to the brink of Mac-dom...)
Silver @ May 20th 2006 12:49PM
"I can vouch for every thinkpad T series (which is even smaller than the macbook - and a hell, HELL, of a lot more powerful than the macbook and macbook pro)"
Looks like someone needs to check his facts, Will. Not sure where all this mystical "extra power" is coming from as these machines (ThinkPads and MacBook Pros) are essentially running the same hardware. Nice try.
"Too bad the g4 wasnt that great - as witnessed by the HUGE leap that the core duo gave macbooks."
Um, how long has the G4 been out? How about 7 YEARS! It ran into its performance brick wall long ago, hence the big jump in performance with the Core Duos. Duh. Is there a big performance jump from the P3 to the Core Duos? Why yes! Yes there is! Rational thinking = 2, Will = 0.
You throw out the word "fanboys" Will, as if you have any idea what you're talking about, and once you open your mouth it's obvious that you don't. I guess that makes you a fanboy of ignorance. Pwned!
I'd love to see a lot less misinformation in the Mac vs. PC flamewars and a little more rational thought.
ryan @ May 20th 2006 1:03PM
first of all ive used both macs and pcs and pcs and windows is way more user freindly but i still like my mac mostly because it looks very nice lol. The new macbook does overheat to because i happen to own one.
Brian @ May 20th 2006 1:59PM
yes my Macbook is hot, but so was my Pismo that this replaced. Long ago I bought a Roadtools Coolpad and voila!, no more heat issues. Yes, it is one more thing to carry, but it's light and it fits in my bag just fine so it's not a nuisance. Also, when running off of battery power it only gets warm, so Apple has apparently set the power management for max performance when on AC which obviously will generate extra heat.
fpn @ May 20th 2006 2:53PM
#1. "of course, the heat issue is.. not an issue, if you have this thing on a table..."
Heat very much is an issue. Several of the Ars forum posters report their 2GHz Macbooks will only run at 1.83 or even 1.66GHz. That's the processor throttling to save itself, and that in my mind is a serious manufacturing defect. Furthermore, the heat that is being trapped by that big gob of thermal paste Apple uses is shortening the lifespan of every part of the computer.
Flux Amm @ May 20th 2006 3:21PM
Somebody in the referenced link about previous overheating problems mentioned that, if taken to a "Genius Bar," the techie there would reapply the thermal paste -- that was said to be a fix.
Is that to be what happens with these models?
Torontoguy @ May 20th 2006 3:48PM
I'm afraid, at the end of the day, it is only another Mac and that limits it to being just another piece of expensive yuppie desk jewelery.
Flux Amo @ May 20th 2006 3:51PM
http://www.osx86project.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=180&Itemid=2
Project OSx86 is orchestrating a protest for today May 20; participating involves calling Apple sales to ask what is being done to remedy the heat and whining problems. The squeaky wheel gets the thermal paste?
obo @ May 20th 2006 4:31PM
"The squeaky wheel gets the thermal paste?"
It puts the paste on the processor or else it gets the Jobs again!
Josh* @ May 20th 2006 4:36PM
rofl on, obo. Rofl on.
Silver @ May 20th 2006 5:00PM
Thanks for jumping in on this story (as usual), Torontoguy. You're consistent anti-Apple nuggets of stupidity are always good for a chuckle. Dumb can be funny.
Striggity @ May 20th 2006 5:01PM
Does the term "fanboy" annoy anyone but me?
Silver @ May 20th 2006 5:24PM
The term "fanboy" is used by people who have nothing intelligent to add to a discussion. It's kind of like a wheelchair for the intellectually disabled.
obo @ May 20th 2006 5:49PM
"The term "fanboy" is used by people who have nothing intelligent to add to a discussion. It's kind of like a wheelchair for the intellectually disabled."
Engadget is part of the Weblogs, Inc. Network, a network of more than 90 blogs. Here are some of our blogs:
PSP Fanboy
DS Fanboy
Revolution Fanboy
Xbox 360 Fanboy
PS3 Fanboy
pixelator @ May 20th 2006 6:06PM
LOL @ Mac fanboys pissed at articles that accurately depict the poor engineering of Apple.
My girlfriend's new Dell E1705 blows the doors off the 17" MBP and cost her $1300 less (shipped w/ tax). It gets warm, but not as hot as the Macs. It also doesn't step down under normal full speed operation.
It's also quiet as the grave even with the fans on.
SO let's recap: iPOD battery problems, older Mac book battery problems, iPOD finish scratching lawsuit, iPOD Video is slow as molasses. These are just a few bits of Apple's 'quality' worksmanship and component selection.
But hey, that glowing Apple logo and glossy white finish are NICE looking!