We don't even really know how to approach this one, but
we all well remember the talks that
went down between Toshiba and
Sony (et. al.) before Blu-ray and HD DVD hit the market; they were going to truce, they were going to unify, it was going to be
more like DVD, less like Betamax and VHS. And, of course,
we all know how that went. And no matter how many times we think talks might still be in the cards, they get shut down for one reason or another,
bitter rivals to the end. Except when one of the most powerful men in the Japanese electronics business, Toshiba President Atsutoshi Nishida, tells investors "We have not given up on a unified format. We would like to seek ways for unifying the standards if opportunities arise." Oh sure, we could take that at face value and all, but it sure does go a long way to assuage stockholders' fears that a format war might yet render Toshiba's technically inferior HD DVD format obsolete and useless, telling them that a unified high definition video format might still be in the cards. Call us pessimists, but we'd love nothing more than for these guys to prove us wrong.
posted Jun 27th 2006 6:54AM
I'm still convinced that HD-DVD is going to win. Blu Ray might be technologically superior (as betamax was), but HD-DVD has the benefits of being first to market, and having a better name. People know what HD means, they know what DVD means, so they presumably will know what HD-DVD means. I think that will be a far bigger benefit than being technologically superior - I've found that most of the time, the masses don't give a flying hoot about what's technologically superior.
I am very sceptical of this actually happening. In fact I think hell may freeze over first.
I do agree it would be a good thing, but it would certainly piss off the early adopters who have already bought one or both formats players. Not to mention people who have already bought movies.
I know my plans are to go the cheap rout for HD DVD and pick up the Xbox 360 add-on this year, assuming reviews say it is acceptable quality. However if these talks pick up any steam I will have to pass.
This articel is a little pro Blu-Ray. I hope that blu-ray looses personally. bah to Sony.
Yeah Right. What he meant to say was that if Toshiba is getting hammered and it looks like they may lose everything, they will compromise and clutch onto BluRay for whatever cash they can. Honestly, I hope both companies lose their shirts over this, and a 3rd option is presented. They should have compromised. I am not going to spend a dime until there is a single standard.
I've been following this war for a while, and personally I think Blu-Ray is going to win. If it does, I'll be glad since it is the superior one (technologically speaking).. with so many of the big hollywood studios backing blu-ray instead of hd-dvd, and with major U.S. software/hardware companies backing it, and the big one - the Playstion 3, which will have built in blu-ray and will sell like crazy - I think blu-ray will take the throne.
Having said that though.. I also will refuse to buy a player, until it is clear that one of the standards has given up the war. Until that happens, I can't be certain.. so good job industry giants, at screwing yourselves out of profits.. we the consumers won't spend until one of you guys gives up the war. I hope hd-dvd gives up since they're already losing anyway.
"I hope hd-dvd gives up since they're already losing anyway."
How can you say that HD-DVD is losing Mark? Blu-Ray products JUST came out on the market! Granted I could care less what format wins, but to make a statement like that when the first batch of Blu-Ray movies is just rolling out is a tad bit ridiculous.
Kudos to the industry for splitting the market 4 ways (Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, the wait and see camps, and the I'm-still-happy-with-my-plain-ol'-DVD camps).
@Intrepid You mean that if Engadget does not bash Sony then its "pro Blue-Ray"?
For any reasonable person Sony should be supported in this battle because it did everything right and pro-consumer this time: it did not go along and try to push new format on everyone, instead it works in a team, has built a coalition of major companies (Pioneer, Panasonic, Samsung and Apple) and worked hard to bring major studios on board. Sony is not Microsoft, its does not have monopoly in anything, hence it can not simple force others to join Blue-ray. I believe significant concessions were made by Sony to buid Blue-ray camp. Also, the best thing about the Blue Ray is that it has much better promise of having a longer life span, as it can expand theoretically up to 200Gb. That means consumers will not have to switch on yet a new media in a couple of years.
Toshiba on the other hands is greedy and proprietary, not only trying to push already outdated technology, but also not willing to share and build a wider industrial support base. If HDD wins this battle, the main losers will we – customers.
No one is loosing or winning. No one has really come out with anything yet!. If I at all see a winner in all of this. It is going to be HD-DVD. Its cheaper to buy the player, and acually has way better features. Also, Everyone said that its not really HD when there only at 1080i, but all the HD-DVD cases I have seen say 1080P on them. So They are really all the same. Besided, Sony is going down the tubes with the Playstation 3. So thats going to kill blur-ray pretty fast.
But as everyone else said. I really don't care about HD dvd's and all that. I can't burn them. I can't even get anything out of them not having a HD display. All my computers won't play them. So who cares.
Give me a downloadable format that once bought can be redownloaded again and again sence I own it. Kind of like on Xbox Live. Once you buy something, you can delete it if you want to and download it again whenever you want for free again. I'll take that.
Betamax/VHS isn't really an apt comparison from a technical point of view. Betamax did offer better PQ than VHS, but with the critical problem that it didn't offer enough capacity to store a feature length movie on one cassette. So what ultimately did Beta in was its technical *inferiority* in one critical area.
Blu-Ray OTOH offers the promise of both better PQ (supports 1080p and lossless audio) as well as higher capacity (50GB vs 35GB).
That being said, Sony's insistence on using MPEG-2 to encode its discs could be Blu-Rays ultimate undoing, as it all but negates the technical advantages of the physical media. The MP2 compression algorithm is long in the tooth compared to the newer methods being used to encode HD-DVDs, with the result that BR movies to date have poorer PQ than HS-DVDs and no extra features, as the movie takes up the whole disc.
Unless Sony can get Dual layer BR discs to market ASAP, or ditches MP2, the battle may go to HD-DVD.
Apparently even though blu-ray is technically superior, the recent customer reviews all over AVS seem to make it seem otherwise. A technological advantage means nothing if you can't use it. Also the price is going to hurt with a lot of people. Based on recent reviews it seems like it should be the other way around with Sony begging Toshiba for a cease fire.
I disagree with Meridian. I appreciate the issues created from the lack of a unified format. However, I am no longer a believer in "mass-confusion" with respect to consumers. It is up to the manufacturers to brand their products and explain the benefits through mass media. It is up to the retailers to sell them. After the success of the iPod, I no longer believe that consumers are "dumb". When you consider what's involved in using an iPod legitimately or otherwise, I am forced to believe that given the proper marketing, any technology can be reduced to simple terms that the "layman" can understand. Format wars can suck but they can help push both technologies much harder a lot faster. With two formats at war with each other we may see earlier exploitation of the full capabilities of each standard. At any rate, I look forward to watching both standards go toe to toe.
Mark, how is HD-DVD losing?? They have a player out already, and a quite a few titles out. Blu-Ray dosn't look to have a player out until August, though titles are now available. And from the look of it Blu-Ray players will cost double that of HD-DVD
Toshiba can kiss Sony's hindlier quarters. What did Toshiba think the response would be with their no-1080P playback ability on their initial hardware offering?
History shows us that everytime Sony goes out of their way to try and be elite, they end up losing.
Betamax, mini-discs, their proprietary memory card that only Sony computers can read, PSP cards... granted they do make some money from these products but in the end, none have lasted through the test of time... the blu-ray spinoff will probably face a similar fate which is why I'm going with HD-DVD's.
Is it me - or is Bust buy (Best Buy) stocking Blue ray Players now?
For $999.00 no less.
Its insane.
A lot of Sony's percieved "advantages" are just that, "percieved" advantages only.
1080p doesn't matter, most high end sets can convert from 1080i to 1080p and will be able to do 24 fps pull down conversion to boot.
People who have viewed the 1080i/1080p output on the Samsung player can SEE NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL when hooked up to a top of the line 1080p DLP television. Yet clowns (Best Buy Bastards, Engadget post whores, etc) still run around parroting this 1080p thing like it's the holy grail in this format war (and for the record all HD-DVD material is mastered in 1080p, the players just can't do it yet).
Toshiba argued that the Blu-ray media was too difficult and costly to manufacture and so far they have been proven right. Sony is rumoured to be getting only 40% yields on their 25GB discs and no 50GB dual layer discs in sight any time soon. Meanwhile HD-DVD 30GB dual layer discs are being quickly and cheaply manufactured on the same equipment that made standard DVDs. We might even see 45GB 3 layer HD-DVD within a year while Sony continues to try to prove the superiority of their format.
Sony is killing themselves by insisting on sticking with MPEG2, the movies look terrible compared to the VC1 encoded HD-DVDs. Sony better change their codec or get those 50GB discs into production and soon, or word of mouth is going to kill Blu-Ray before it gets off the ground.
HDDVD is not losing by any means. The use of the VC-1 codec on the 30GB disc allows the PQ to eclipse the PQ on BluRay thus far. Plus, there is speculation that Toshiba will have a third useable layer before Sony makes use of it's second layer, possibly negating the storage argument.
By the time Sony releases the PS3, the HDDVD drive will be available for the XBOX 360 at a cheaper price point, nonetheless.
As for the 1080P comment, the current Samsung BD player is just performing an internal de-interlacing from 1080i to 1080P, not outputting raw 1080P. There also apparently is a firmware update coming for existing Toshiba players to enable 1080P and the 2nd Gen players will be 1080P out of the box. All of the media released so far have been mastered in 1080P res.
BluRay looks great on paper, but has yet to live up to the hype. This could change, but as these prices, market penetration will be difficult.
The lower price point, better performance and XBOX offering still make HDDVD a strong contender. The biggest hurdle I see in that camp is slow studio support, but we are starting to here rumblings of some studios supporting both formats.
I do agree with the topic the title of the article alluded to, which is that a format war is just rediculous and it would only benefit both companies to collaborate. We have heard from Toshiba, let's see what Sony has to say.
Blu-ray is technically superior? I disagree. Blu-ray can kiss my ass. I hope its Sony biggest failure to date.
Blu-Ray is technically superior. That is a simple fact, and rooting for the inferior format doesn't make much sense from a geek perspective.
@Jason - $999 is "insane"? You weren't around or paying much attention when DVD players were launched, I take it. Blu Ray players and movies are already both cheaper than their respective DVD counterparts were at this point in their life cycle.
I'm sorry but I don't see Sony winning this fight. If holding less data (35 vs 50GB) makes HD-DVD technically inferior, reviews on AVS state otherwise. HD-DVD is out now, player is cheaper ($500 vs $1000), and movies are cheaper. HD-DVD will have 1080p eventually, and HD-DVD will have xbox360 where Blu-Ray has the PS3. IMHO the PS3 doesn't look like the easy win everyone hopes it will be with delays, limitations, and high price (same issues as Blu-Ray).
Look at BetaMax, DAT, MD, MemoryStick,& PSP movies. Sony doesn't learn. Most consumers know anything Sony is more expensive because you pay for the name. Not because it is better.
It doesn't matter how Blu-Ray compares to DVD at launch time, it has to be substantially BETTER than DVD to convince even home theater nuts to plunk down $1000 for the Sammy player or the $1500 that most other first generation players are going to cost this year.
By and large the reviewers who have watched the first crop of Blu-Ray movies have been unimpressed saying that they only look marginally better than upconverted standard definition DVDs.
To get Joe 6 Pack to buy into a new format you really have to WOW them, Blu-ray isn't doing that.
HD-DVD on the other hand, for all of it's "technical inferiority" has been wowing people with truly sharp looking titles mastered with the VC1 codec. The player is a reasonable $499 or less and titles are already down to $20 (there are also 30+ titles, many of which are worth owning).
Neither will win. With the confusion over two HD formats and not enough saturation in the HDTV market to make people want something better than regular DVD. Most people who get HDTVs love the way regular DVDs look and will not likely shell out for higher priced HD/BR discs and players.
HDDVD wins for shear better backwards compatability... hybrid discs are possible with Hddvd not with bluray ... bthe bluray camp gave up on it... on top of that the HD camps DVD upscaling is much better....
then theres the fact that killed betamax back in the day... the porn industry is now leaning towards hd-dvd cause of stupid sony licensing and authoring practices.
And with prices for bluray ranging from 1000-1500$ i don't see it as consumer friendly either.
and as was said the wow factor from Bluray has been kind of deflated in the hddvd vs bluray booths at certain stores hddvd even has more of a pop with it's videos the fact is blurays biggest misstep besides being a sony format that kind dooms it already (betamax, sacd, umd) is that they have neglected there codecs they went for mpeg over vc1 and they got smashed in the quality department on all there first string movies its just horrible.
Unfortunately Synergy is probably right. Both formats will probably be unable to get heavy penetration due to most people considering DVD the "standard" in video quality. I know people that can't even tell the difference between an HD channel and an SD broadcast.
So both formats FAIL and the only way to get an HD movie experience is via pay-per-view or direct download (both of which will have lackluster video quality).
:(
"A lot of Sony's percieved "advantages" are just that, "percieved" advantages only."
When you have a 100GB hard drive and a 50GB hard drive side by side, do you also say the advantage of the 100GB model is a "perceived" advantage?
The bottom line with these formats is this: they exist to hold data. That is ALL they exist to do. How the data is stored is pretty much immaterial because they can both utilize a variety of pre-existing video codecs. What matters is how MUCH data is stored and how FAST that data can be retrieved. (Speed matters because higher data transfer rates mean less required compression - but then, of course, you need the extra capacity to store the extra data required.)
On BOTH of those counts, Blu-Ray is technically superior to HD-DVD. There is absolutely zero reason to root for the technically inferior format. What, just because you don't like Sony? And you think Toshiba hasn't done stupid things in their corporate life too? These are both proprietary formats "owned" by Japanese companies. The only differentiating factors between them are capacity and speed. Blu-Ray wins on both counts.
It would maybe be a bit different if the technically inferior format was open-source and the superior format proprietary. Then you could at least make a case on political or moral grounds. As it is, it's just moronic to support the inferior format when they are both proprietary formats subject to licensing fees.
You are right Jeff, lets just talk about capacity.
BD is 25GB SD with no 50GB dual layer in sight.
HD-DVD is 30GB right now. Plus it's more efficient because it uses VC1 instead of MPEG 2.
What you are saying amounts to "it doesn't matter how the PICTURE looks all that matters is the data storage capacity" when talking about something like HDTV is weak thinking at best, moronic at worst.
Please stop the FUD.
Myth: BR is better because it has 1080P.
Truth: Both disks are encoded in 1080P. The very first HD-DVD player OUTPUTED 1080i. All future players will support 1080P (even if it is needed or not)
Myth: BR is only format to support lossless audio.
Truth: HD-DVD support DTS True HD which is lossless 7.1 format.
Myth: BR has more capacity.
Truth: In the real world BR disks are 25GB (single layer) vs 30GB (dual layer) for HD-DVD. BR camp has had a huge problem with yields on dual layer BR. Toshiba is close to production on 3 layer (45GB) disk. Sony claims no problem with dual layer (50GB) disk and proto work on 4 layer disk (100GB). The truth is that until it is on retail shelves it is hard to seperate truth from overselling. Right now on the shelves HD is 30GB and BR is 25GB.
Myth: BR has better picture quality.
Truth: BR is using mpeg2 instead of VC1/mpeg4/H.264. It would take a bitrate about 4X as high to get equal PQ from mpeg2. Since BR is using single layer & mpeg2 it has far worse PQ than HD with VC1 and 30GB. The reviews have said the same thing. BR with modern codec OR BR with dual layer (50GB) & mpeg2 would be acceptable quality (equal to HD-DVD). BR with mpeg2 and 25GB looks like garbage.
So although BR is technically superior on paper it hasn't translated to real world performance. Right now with the products on the shelves HD is higher quality, cheaper, more available, and the movies can be produced at same price as normal DVD. BR is too complex, too expensive and offers little benefit over DVD and on benefit over HD-DVD.
When it comes to watching sports, HD makes a HUGE difference. When it comes to watching movies, its not that big a deal. It is much sharper, but at the same time, it doesnt really enhance the experience in a manner that makes me want to shell out 1 grand, or even 500 bucks. I will get the HD-DVD add on for my 360 if i see something that really impresses me. At the moment I would probably say HD-DVD has the edge because Sony (for whatever reason) cant get their act together with any of their products. For the moment, I think I speak for most people when I say I'm gonna be a spectator for now because nothing i have seen gives me a reason not to be.
::sigh:: Sony just makes me sad.
It seems to me that Sony is just out to make a buck. Anymore, Sony insists on introducing a new media format that is "Technologically Superior" then ends up being a bust.
Look at the UMD - "Universal" media format? Please. There is absolutely nothing universal about it unless you load it into your PSP and fire it into outer space. Sony wanted consumers to "restock" their movie collection only to watch it on a 5 inch screen. I don't think so.
So, Sony then throws Blue-Ray at you and again expects the consumer to restock their movie collection! For what purpose? Because the Playstation 3 is going to have a player? Seems to me that Sony creates new formats so then you can go and buy their product to play it. Good marketing? Yes. But, it's just getting lame.
I'm an average college student on and average salary, and I just can't afford to buy new formats and players every time Sony want to make a buck! HD-DVD is that only way to go. The size difference between the two mediums is minimal and speed just isn't an issue. Let's not forget that most DVD players will be able to play HD-DVD will little to no upgrade. Works for me.
Also, going with the technically inferior product is not a good idea? Thats a little rediculous. There are many, many instances where the "inferior product" is the winner. PS2 vs GC vs Xbox. We know who won that battle. The battle between xbox360 and PS3 hasn't begun yet, but at the moment xbox360 is less powerful, and it seems it will take considerable market share from Sony. At the time when the ipod came out at 30GB there were creative mp3 players that had 60GB. No one cared, because ipod was cool and had a lot of support. The difference in storage size is unimportant. Especially when you consider the fact that 35GB is more than enough space for the movie and then extra features. Also the 3rd usable layer could make it 45GB. I bet most movies don't use have the space available, regardless. Hd-DVD is technically inferior, and that may actually be an advantage it has.
Jason, are you serious? Taiyo Yuden is already producing 200GB quadruple layer Blu-Ray discs. So don't even try to win this argument for HD-DVD. When the world's premiere media manufacturer chooses to develop your technology, that should say something.
And Jeff is absolutely correct in everything he said.
Kyle- "most DVD players will be able to play HD-DVD with no little to no upgrade" - are you high? DVD players will never be able to play HD. In time, you won't be able to buy DVD players anymore.
Blu-Ray has been chosen by more movie studios. It's got the trojan horse in the PS3 (people will have it in their homes before they even realize it). It's been chosen by Vivid video. The movies are already the same price as HD-DVD movies ($20-30, check Amazon). The players will come down in price (hell, there's only one on the market right now).
Blu-Ray supports the VC-1 codec. It's up to the STUDIO to decide which codec they use in production of their discs.
It's just that Sony's been using MPEG2 for their discs. (Don't know why...)
Interesting parallel, but Betamax had better picture quality, but less capacity than VHS..ahem.
Of course, Blu-ray's PQ issues in some titles should be a very temporary thing also.
As for Toshiba's comments, it does not instill confidence. They should have faith that their format will prevail on its own two feet, but quite honestly, I can see how they might have difficulty with that. Toshiba is looking fairly isolated in the CE world with this, with Microsoft/Intel egging them on from the sidelines.
Do you guys remember SACD vs DVD-AUDIO? It feels like deja vu all over again but in the video realm. Dvd's upconverted on a decent dvd player look GREAT. You only see the "big" difference on a BIG screen tv at least 50" and up! The average consumers tv is only around 34". I must say though that toshiba's $500 HD-DVD player does a phenominal job upconverting old dvd's. Far better than your average $150 upconverting player. For that reason alone I would get the toshiba because existing dvd player that upconvert at the same quality costs $1000 and up!
I guess we'll have to leave it to the porn industry, as usual, to end the fight..
Why do people still post: HD-DVD is technically inferior?
As of now HD-DVDs has greater capacity (30gb vs 25gb) and better picture quality (VC-1 vs mpeg2). Both format is encoded in 1080p...neither players can output true 1080p.
If you are backing Blu-ray please read the facts and not buy into the Sony PR machine.
Sony needs to get their act together and switch over to VC-1 and Toshiba needs to hire a new marketing department.
can't we all just get along?
just make a HD-Ray disc or even better a BLUHD disc
Jacob,
Yes the hardware supports it. Sony's software to produce the video for the discs does not yet and they aren't close (widescreen mag interview).
Danny,
What I am sure about is that you and Jeff are fanbois of the first order. I was a supporter of Blu Ray until I saw how Sony handled the launch. Titles that should have been reference discs (Fifth Element) instead look worse than the HBO-HD versions.
I could care less if someone is producing a 10 layer Blu-ray disc. Yields on the dual layer discs are supposedly 10% which puts the cost of manufacturing them at $150 and up. HD-DVD blanks only cost slightly more to manufacture than dual layer DVDs and the yields are 95% (compared to 98% for regular DVD).
Sony had to prove their "technical prowess" yet again and chose to build something that they can't deliver. They aren't even using the full 25GB on the current blu-ray discs, they are capping them around 21GB so that they can use more of the yields.
Remember when Sony promised that PS3 would have dual 1080P via dual HDMI output?
Sony is very good at promising what they can't deliver.
I honestly see BR making a bigger impact in the PC world than movies. Sony is really doing a poor job in releasing good looking titles. Where I work we got a BR sony laptop with 1920x1200 res and it came with House of the Flying Daggers, which looked in some scenes worse than DVD because of noticable artifacts. Resolution wise it was extremely hard to notice a difference between Standard Def (and I'm a bit of a videophile). I thought it was the computer's screen at first so I put on some other highdef content to make sure and it looked dramitically better with different content. How does sony expect to sell these things when customers get such a bad first impression of the format? In best buy I saw a BR phantom of the opera playing on a Samsung 4095d tv and a HD-DVD demo on a westinghouse lvm-42w2 and the HDDVD looked better on the much less expensive tv, not just a little either. So much so I think your average consumer would have definitely have noticed a sharpness difference. Phantom of the opera looked extremely soft. Not to say that BR can't look as good or maybe better, but so far with my eyes(and they are pretty darn good IMHO :) ) HDDVD looks better and that is what a lot of consumers first impressions may be. Especially since they don't realize there will be improvements on both sides. Serenity, albiet a bit of noisy, looked much sharper when I viewed it on a friends DLP 1080p tv. Sony needs some great looking titles but I don't know if it can be done with single layer BR. House of the flying daggers took up almost every available meg in the BR disk so I don't know how they are going to improve it with their current codec and limitations. I'm not biased just telling of personal experiences I've had so you can flame all you want you cannot disprove my experiences which correlate with many of the avsfourm members. Though I will not by a player until there is a clear winner even though I already have on order a 1080p native accepting tv with HDCP though HDMI. So hard to wait :(
I'm currently working on a blu-ray/hd-dvd player, yeah it'll play them both, it'll upconvert vhs/betamax tapes too.
Everyone will want one.
Jason, I am by no means a Sony fanboy. I think it is much more clear that you are an anybody-but-sony fanboy. Perhaps you could call me a Blu-Ray fanboy, though. I think it is a clearly superior technology. That is the only reason I support it. I don't care who makes it or what kind of supposed hiccups it has had at launch. I think in the long run it will be much better for all of us if we have the higher storage capacity and transfer rates that Blu-Ray provides. For both computer and movie use, this is essential. I don't want any more movies split up onto multiple discs, which is what is going to happen with HD-DVD (and possibly also with Blu-Ray). Now, if the movie studios start using Mpeg-4 it might not be a problem for either. We'll see.
OH STOP! Microsoft’s decision to not include HD-DVD in the X360 will be a huge contributor to its downfall! Imagine what a lead HD-DVD would have had if ALL X360’s came with it. Now the format has to rely on “one today, one tomorrow” trickle sales at about $1,000.00 per player.
Remember, people need a “good” reason to go Hi Def on the player side (i.e. we are not in a hurry to “buy” our movie catalogs all over again, especially those that weren’t shot in Hi Def). There are also some good low priced up-converting DVD players out there.
Sony is “crazy like a Fox” for cramming Blue-Ray into the PS3 since it will create an over night base of Millions of Blue-Ray players. They also have oodles of content (is there a Toshiba Studios somewhere out there that I missed?). Besides, Bluuuuue Raaaay sounds much cooler than HD-DVD. It’s like the difference between what the Federation (Blue Ray) or the Klingon Empire (HD-DVD) would call a next gen player. Oh, yea and the pornsters are all signed up for the Blue Ray.
NOW BRING ON THAT OH SO CHEAP BLUE RAY PLAYER CALLED A PS3!!
I don't think consumers want either HD-DVD or Blueray at this time. It's to soon after the switch to DVD and the demand for HD is weak. Add the confussion about the battle between HD-DVD and Blueray and you have a product most consumers don't want to deal with. And tech-savvy early adopters aren't exactly excited thanks to the DRM issues involved. I own thousands of legal DVDs but I didn't buy any until their DRM was broken so I could make back-ups (I store my original CDs and DVDs and use copies). I plan on doing the same with these HD formats. Not every early adopter cares about DRM and similar annoyances but a significant number do. If one of the two HD formats would remove DRM as a feature they'd get a lot of extra consumer support.
Frankenstein - I agree with your enthusiasm for BR. One thing to note, though. Any film is going to be better quality in high-def, not just the ones shot in "hi-def" as you say. Point of fact: film stock is much higher "resolution" than 1080p. So even the beauty of Blu-Ray cannot quite replicate the theater experience. But it's getting closer.
If blu-ray fails, which i hope it does, but then there is really going to be some trouble with that PS3, all blu-ray, so if sony and all the PS fans out there loose Bluray look for some really expensive games on the PS# or a major upgrade AKA buy a new one. I think that the HD-DVD is going to win just becuse the players are cheaper and have been around longer than the Blu-Ray. Tosh i think hit this one well. But i do think that there should be a unversial format like DVD. I mena sony came out with a UMD and its proproity to sony and only sony really, you can only preety much play it in a PSP. Come on Universal Media Disk my ass. Screw off Sony
Sony appears to have a better grip on DRM this time around, which is why the studios have generally been more supportive of Blu-Ray, pre-launch.
Tighter DRM is usually a bad thing for PC guys, but Sony has managed to get Dell and HP (#1 and #2) and Apple on board...
Also, Blu-Ray is based on open standards and java, whereas HD-DVD is based on MS's proprietary iHD format. For the life of me, I can't see why anyone would be excited about a new MS/Intel platform gaining a stronghold in the livingroom away from the PC.
In the end, CE companies (and most consumers, IMO) would rather support Sony than MS when it comes to video and games and even data, when away from the PC. No one wants to give MS entre to the living the room - the CE wants to keep MS in the office.
Politically, it appears that Toshiba picked the wrong partner by developing HD-DVD with Wintel, and the content guys and CE hardware guys and even the PC guys are letting them know it...
I salute Sony for developing a standards-based system that's designed for HD video, gaming, and data, whereas HD-DVD is designed primarily just for video.
And although I'm no Sony cheerleader, I'd much rather see them win than MS/Intel in this particular battle.
Why are people cheering on VC-1 as a codec? I seem to recall that the SMPTE threatened to de-certify the codec based upon Microsoft's "misleading" (politely put at best) claims about the codec as opposed to H.264.
VC-1 is inferior to H.264.
We as consumers should be insisting that regardless of the hardware format (HD-DVD or Blu-Ray), the studios should use the best codec possible, that being H.264. That means no MPEG2 titles from Sony and no VC-1 titles from the TimeWarner Entertainment companies.
Wow, long and pointless thread. Guess I'll add to it! :)
Two of Jerry's Myths are... Myths! :p
>Myth: BR has more capacity.
>Truth: In the real world BR disks are 25GB (single layer)
>vs 30GB (dual layer) for HD-DVD.
Um, BD DOES have more capacity, just none of the BD launch titles. To say this is a myth is totally misleading. Is it a myth that DVD is 8GB... after all there were no dual layer DVDs at launch.
>Myth: BR has better picture quality.
>Truth: BR is using mpeg2 instead of VC1/mpeg4/H.264.
It does not matter what Codec is being used. As long as the transfer / compression / bitrate is good, the two, side-by-side are gonna look great. And there's several Reference-Quality MPEG2 HD transfers out there clocking in well below 25GB, such as Gladiator and the non-BD Fifth Element.
Besides, Bill Hunt at the Digital Bits has said that, as of yesterday, a Blu-Ray demo he just watched is THE BEST LOOKING HD HE'S EVER SEEN. And he's already raved about the picture quality of HD-DVD.
So, indeed, according to one source, BD has the best picture quality! :)
On paper, BD has better specs. That's just a plain fact (higher capacity and higher bitrate, even if we're not seeing it today).
But look, in the end BOTH formats will have totally comparable quality. They will have their duds (ala Highlander) and their reference material (ala Fifth Element Superbit). It's just too early to call a winner or loser right now.
-Pie
Why is Blu-Ray technically superior?
Blu-Ray can store 25 GB/layer and has proven in labs that it can multiplex multiple layers, with 2 layers being the most feasible in a production environment. However, the yields on Blu-Ray discs out of the factory are ridiculously small -- they are too hard to manufacture, resulting in waste of 3/4 of current production runs. Add to that, there is only .1mm of polycarbonate substrate (which is a major reason for the higher data density) with a magical anti-scratch coating that will theoretically let the discs hold up to being breathed on the wrong way. Of course, theoretically, the yields should be better than 25%.
HD DVD is already multiplexing two layers, and can do more in the future. The .6mm of polycarbonate substrate will be far more resilient for those nasty scratches that occur when random folks use the disc as a coffee coaster before returning it to Netflix.
Oh, and while I'm on the topic of fanboy ignorance instead of actual real-life production information -- VC-1 isn't inferior to MPEG4 AVC (h.264) at higher resolutions (I give the nod to 264 at SD and lower reses). The codec can't reproduce film grain, and needs to have "film-grain injectors" built on top of the decoders. This is because the internal noise filters see grain as high frequency noise and simply removes it. Although this may fly for certain kinds of content, 264 is by NO MEANS better than VC-1.
I'm not suggesting that any of the technologies are "better" -- they all have their strengths and weaknesses. In the end, the smart folks will just buy dual-format players from one of the neutral companies (LG, Samsung) and be done with it.
Currently I prefer the HD DVD technology, Toshiba need to license the technology to other electronics companies.
People are talking about the PS3 and Sony running away with it, but HD DVD has the backing of some serious companies. For example all Microsoft have to do is release Vista on a HD DVD and teh PC uptake will be huge.
In terms of movie companies, they don't matter they WILL release movies for whichever format starts selling.
All the people saying they "back" Blu-Ray on here, I wonder how many actually have a blu-ray drive. I know a number of people with HD DVD players (at half the price). By the time the PS3 comes out you will be able to get an xbox360 AND a standalone HD DVD player for a little more than the price of a single PS3.
Ben H. is right. If MicroSuck chooses to use HD-DVD as PC storage and a method to release their new software, BR is doomed.
And if the Porn Industry sides with HD-DVD -- IT IS OVER!! (And “Technical Superiority” will have NOTHING to do with it)
The name iPod is just as bad as Blu-Ray. There's more Blu-Ray manufacturers so even though HD-DVD is out first (by what, a month?) the costs of Blu-Ray can scale lower. In the end HD on demand is all that matters. Movie companies would be smart to start thinking about bundling high capacity hard drives like Apple's XSan with their disc-free HD movie collections so we can have a backup system.
Yes I saw Blu Ray at Best Buy last week. They are on the shelves finally. I think it may have been a Sansung model though. Sony couldnt even get it right.
As far as 1080p in Toshibas initial offering.. Well, what percentage of TVs are actually 1080p capable? like 10 or 20% in homes... Maybe.
And as we've seen with Sony in the past they can screw over the consumer. Proprietary software and hardware, Crazy forms of copy protection, poor customer support.
If Tosh comes out with a second Gen player before X-mas, and probably at a still lower price, with their superior encoding, and sold working hardware. They got it.
Blu Ray is just a lil too fragile, with it's information so close to the surface and that fine pitch on the info. A BD player would have to be very stable, thus large and heavy or with suspension built in. I think they just maybe tried to pack too much on them disks.
Stewrt
Sorry for all you guys that think you know a myth from a truth, but Blu-ray actually does support both MPEG4 AVC and VC1.
I should know because I work on Blu-ray.
I think the important milestone for when the war really starts is when hdtv becomes more wide spread for example in the uk (where I live) Sky (sat tv) and ntl/telewest (cable tv) have yet to offer many hdtv channels less than 2 or 3 so there is no real incentive to buy a hd-ready set yet... with the cheaply available run-of the mill tv sets that can act as a interim solution while prices are still stupidly high on hd sets. What might be interesting is if the ps3 and soon the 360 with hd-dvd drive prompts further hd-tv uptake. As someone above said without a hd set there is less noticeable quality increase.
when standard tv sets/standard services(uk analogue signal is being phased out starting 2007 and whole of the uk by 2012), dvds and players are phased out this may start the switch to hd on a grand scale and thats when the war will truly start when consumers are actually thinking about changing there tv set and dvd/home movie equipment...
only time tell
Geez; Sony (cultist) fanboys take a pill. Even if Blueray tanks that doesn't mean they won't be able to put games on it for the PoS3. It's not the end of the world, have some Kool-Aid . I am waiting to see if the magical scratch coating on the extra thin Blueray media holds up. I think Blueray will fail because of the extra cost and difficulty manufacturing the hardware and the disk. Joe consumer will not be able to see a difference, early reports are that HD DVD looks better than Blueray right now anyway. Early adopters and tech savvy people don’t decide these things. The unwashed masses of consumers do and that’s the way it should be.
Sorry but, who said that Blu-ray doesn't support MPEG4 AVC and VC1?
can't you people read before spreading wrong info!
taken from:
http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#bluray_video_codecs
What video codecs will Blu-ray support?
MPEG-2 - enhanced for HD, also used for playback of DVDs and HDTV recordings.
MPEG-4 AVC - part of the MPEG-4 standard also known as H.264 (High Profile and Main Profile).
SMPTE VC-1 - standard based on Microsoft's Windows Media Video (WMV) technology.
For those that say blu-ray has just been released, you're obviously not up to date. In Japan this has been released since 2003.
**********FROM WIKIPEDIA*****************
The first Blu-ray recorder was unveiled by Sony on March 3, 2003, and was introduced to the Japanese market in April that year. On September 1, 2003, JVC and Samsung Electronics announced Blu-ray based products at IFA in Berlin, Germany. Both indicated that their products would be on the market in 2005.
I have not seen a HD movie running yet but the day i do (which wont be long btw) i cant see myself ever going back to watching a DVD. Personally i will go for both technologys, i will buy the add on Tosh player for my 360 priced at $180 and my PS3 will already have blu-ray player at $650. So why would anyone buy a player at $1000 when you could have a ps3 and an xbox 360 add on for $800 and then have the best of both worlds? Its a shame our collections are going to look very odd with a mixture of old DVD, HD disks and Blu-ray disks. We will have to have both if we want to watch alot of the movies, due to companies sideing with one or the other format. They should have created a joint project and one format instead of creating this expensive mess for the consumers!
UmmmHmmp!!
I have spent the last few days doing a side by side of HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray. I know this is technically impossible but in spite of its supposedly larger capacity, Blu-Ray did NOT look better than HD.
Now of course this a not a true, blue (no pun intended), comparison. I did not view that same movie at the same time. And I also realize that Toshiba made sure to put only the best on their demo disc.
None-the-less, I found that the Samsung Blue Ray looked only like a real good DVD. The HD looked show stopping good.
The colors just jumped out at you. The lines seemed much more crisp and the picture overall was more impacting.
$500 vs. $1,000---------you tell me-------I’m listening
UmmmHmmp!!
I have spent the last few days doing a side by side of HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray. I know this is technically impossible but in spite of its supposedly larger capacity, Blu-Ray did NOT look better than HD.
Now of course this a not a true, blue (no pun intended), comparison. I did not view that same movie at the same time. And I also realize that Toshiba made sure to put only the best on their demo disc.
None-the-less, I found that the Samsung Blue Ray looked only like a real good DVD. The HD looked show stopping good.
The colors just jumped out at you. The lines seemed much more crisp and the picture overall was more impacting.
$500 vs. $1,000---------you tell me-------I’m listening
I have read through these posts and wonder why nobody has mentioned the durability of blue ray discs or HD-DVDs.
The HD-DVD is the same physical technology as the DVD albeit with a higher data density. It has a relatively thick plastic layer over the data layer about .6 mm or 23 thousands of an inch. From a durability standpoint it should be similar to a normal DVD.
Blue ray is one six of that about .1mm or about 4 thousands of an inch. This is about the thickness of one sheet of paper.
What’s going to happen if blue ray users find out that their blue ray disks get damaged easier. Or a computer user looses all their data due to a damaged disk. Or that new game you bought for $60 bucks is gets destroyed?. Wouldn't this spell doom for the blue ray format?
We all know DVDs are more durable than CDs because the data layer is sandwiched between two layers of plastic. In the blue ray disk a UV cured hard coat material is applied over the data layer. How well will this hard coat stand up over time?