We don't even really know how to approach this one, but
we all well remember the talks that
went down between Toshiba and
Sony (et. al.) before Blu-ray and HD DVD hit the market; they were going to truce, they were going to unify, it was going to be
more like DVD, less like Betamax and VHS. And, of course,
we all know how that went. And no matter how many times we think talks might still be in the cards, they get shut down for one reason or another,
bitter rivals to the end. Except when one of the most powerful men in the Japanese electronics business, Toshiba President Atsutoshi Nishida, tells investors "We have not given up on a unified format. We would like to seek ways for unifying the standards if opportunities arise." Oh sure, we could take that at face value and all, but it sure does go a long way to assuage stockholders' fears that a format war might yet render Toshiba's technically inferior HD DVD format obsolete and useless, telling them that a unified high definition video format might still be in the cards. Call us pessimists, but we'd love nothing more than for these guys to prove us wrong.
posted June 27th 2006 6:54AM
Why is Blu-Ray technically superior?
Blu-Ray can store 25 GB/layer and has proven in labs that it can multiplex multiple layers, with 2 layers being the most feasible in a production environment. However, the yields on Blu-Ray discs out of the factory are ridiculously small -- they are too hard to manufacture, resulting in waste of 3/4 of current production runs. Add to that, there is only .1mm of polycarbonate substrate (which is a major reason for the higher data density) with a magical anti-scratch coating that will theoretically let the discs hold up to being breathed on the wrong way. Of course, theoretically, the yields should be better than 25%.
HD DVD is already multiplexing two layers, and can do more in the future. The .6mm of polycarbonate substrate will be far more resilient for those nasty scratches that occur when random folks use the disc as a coffee coaster before returning it to Netflix.
Oh, and while I'm on the topic of fanboy ignorance instead of actual real-life production information -- VC-1 isn't inferior to MPEG4 AVC (h.264) at higher resolutions (I give the nod to 264 at SD and lower reses). The codec can't reproduce film grain, and needs to have "film-grain injectors" built on top of the decoders. This is because the internal noise filters see grain as high frequency noise and simply removes it. Although this may fly for certain kinds of content, 264 is by NO MEANS better than VC-1.
I'm not suggesting that any of the technologies are "better" -- they all have their strengths and weaknesses. In the end, the smart folks will just buy dual-format players from one of the neutral companies (LG, Samsung) and be done with it.
Currently I prefer the HD DVD technology, Toshiba need to license the technology to other electronics companies.
People are talking about the PS3 and Sony running away with it, but HD DVD has the backing of some serious companies. For example all Microsoft have to do is release Vista on a HD DVD and teh PC uptake will be huge.
In terms of movie companies, they don't matter they WILL release movies for whichever format starts selling.
All the people saying they "back" Blu-Ray on here, I wonder how many actually have a blu-ray drive. I know a number of people with HD DVD players (at half the price). By the time the PS3 comes out you will be able to get an xbox360 AND a standalone HD DVD player for a little more than the price of a single PS3.
Ben H. is right. If MicroSuck chooses to use HD-DVD as PC storage and a method to release their new software, BR is doomed.
And if the Porn Industry sides with HD-DVD -- IT IS OVER!! (And “Technical Superiority” will have NOTHING to do with it)
The name iPod is just as bad as Blu-Ray. There's more Blu-Ray manufacturers so even though HD-DVD is out first (by what, a month?) the costs of Blu-Ray can scale lower. In the end HD on demand is all that matters. Movie companies would be smart to start thinking about bundling high capacity hard drives like Apple's XSan with their disc-free HD movie collections so we can have a backup system.
Yes I saw Blu Ray at Best Buy last week. They are on the shelves finally. I think it may have been a Sansung model though. Sony couldnt even get it right.
As far as 1080p in Toshibas initial offering.. Well, what percentage of TVs are actually 1080p capable? like 10 or 20% in homes... Maybe.
And as we've seen with Sony in the past they can screw over the consumer. Proprietary software and hardware, Crazy forms of copy protection, poor customer support.
If Tosh comes out with a second Gen player before X-mas, and probably at a still lower price, with their superior encoding, and sold working hardware. They got it.
Blu Ray is just a lil too fragile, with it's information so close to the surface and that fine pitch on the info. A BD player would have to be very stable, thus large and heavy or with suspension built in. I think they just maybe tried to pack too much on them disks.
Stewrt
Sorry for all you guys that think you know a myth from a truth, but Blu-ray actually does support both MPEG4 AVC and VC1.
I should know because I work on Blu-ray.
I think the important milestone for when the war really starts is when hdtv becomes more wide spread for example in the uk (where I live) Sky (sat tv) and ntl/telewest (cable tv) have yet to offer many hdtv channels less than 2 or 3 so there is no real incentive to buy a hd-ready set yet... with the cheaply available run-of the mill tv sets that can act as a interim solution while prices are still stupidly high on hd sets. What might be interesting is if the ps3 and soon the 360 with hd-dvd drive prompts further hd-tv uptake. As someone above said without a hd set there is less noticeable quality increase.
when standard tv sets/standard services(uk analogue signal is being phased out starting 2007 and whole of the uk by 2012), dvds and players are phased out this may start the switch to hd on a grand scale and thats when the war will truly start when consumers are actually thinking about changing there tv set and dvd/home movie equipment...
only time tell
Geez; Sony (cultist) fanboys take a pill. Even if Blueray tanks that doesn't mean they won't be able to put games on it for the PoS3. It's not the end of the world, have some Kool-Aid . I am waiting to see if the magical scratch coating on the extra thin Blueray media holds up. I think Blueray will fail because of the extra cost and difficulty manufacturing the hardware and the disk. Joe consumer will not be able to see a difference, early reports are that HD DVD looks better than Blueray right now anyway. Early adopters and tech savvy people don’t decide these things. The unwashed masses of consumers do and that’s the way it should be.
Sorry but, who said that Blu-ray doesn't support MPEG4 AVC and VC1?
can't you people read before spreading wrong info!
taken from:
http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#bluray_video_codecs
What video codecs will Blu-ray support?
MPEG-2 - enhanced for HD, also used for playback of DVDs and HDTV recordings.
MPEG-4 AVC - part of the MPEG-4 standard also known as H.264 (High Profile and Main Profile).
SMPTE VC-1 - standard based on Microsoft's Windows Media Video (WMV) technology.
For those that say blu-ray has just been released, you're obviously not up to date. In Japan this has been released since 2003.
**********FROM WIKIPEDIA*****************
The first Blu-ray recorder was unveiled by Sony on March 3, 2003, and was introduced to the Japanese market in April that year. On September 1, 2003, JVC and Samsung Electronics announced Blu-ray based products at IFA in Berlin, Germany. Both indicated that their products would be on the market in 2005.
I have not seen a HD movie running yet but the day i do (which wont be long btw) i cant see myself ever going back to watching a DVD. Personally i will go for both technologys, i will buy the add on Tosh player for my 360 priced at $180 and my PS3 will already have blu-ray player at $650. So why would anyone buy a player at $1000 when you could have a ps3 and an xbox 360 add on for $800 and then have the best of both worlds? Its a shame our collections are going to look very odd with a mixture of old DVD, HD disks and Blu-ray disks. We will have to have both if we want to watch alot of the movies, due to companies sideing with one or the other format. They should have created a joint project and one format instead of creating this expensive mess for the consumers!
UmmmHmmp!!
I have spent the last few days doing a side by side of HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray. I know this is technically impossible but in spite of its supposedly larger capacity, Blu-Ray did NOT look better than HD.
Now of course this a not a true, blue (no pun intended), comparison. I did not view that same movie at the same time. And I also realize that Toshiba made sure to put only the best on their demo disc.
None-the-less, I found that the Samsung Blue Ray looked only like a real good DVD. The HD looked show stopping good.
The colors just jumped out at you. The lines seemed much more crisp and the picture overall was more impacting.
$500 vs. $1,000---------you tell me-------I’m listening
UmmmHmmp!!
I have spent the last few days doing a side by side of HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray. I know this is technically impossible but in spite of its supposedly larger capacity, Blu-Ray did NOT look better than HD.
Now of course this a not a true, blue (no pun intended), comparison. I did not view that same movie at the same time. And I also realize that Toshiba made sure to put only the best on their demo disc.
None-the-less, I found that the Samsung Blue Ray looked only like a real good DVD. The HD looked show stopping good.
The colors just jumped out at you. The lines seemed much more crisp and the picture overall was more impacting.
$500 vs. $1,000---------you tell me-------I’m listening
I have read through these posts and wonder why nobody has mentioned the durability of blue ray discs or HD-DVDs.
The HD-DVD is the same physical technology as the DVD albeit with a higher data density. It has a relatively thick plastic layer over the data layer about .6 mm or 23 thousands of an inch. From a durability standpoint it should be similar to a normal DVD.
Blue ray is one six of that about .1mm or about 4 thousands of an inch. This is about the thickness of one sheet of paper.
What’s going to happen if blue ray users find out that their blue ray disks get damaged easier. Or a computer user looses all their data due to a damaged disk. Or that new game you bought for $60 bucks is gets destroyed?. Wouldn't this spell doom for the blue ray format?
We all know DVDs are more durable than CDs because the data layer is sandwiched between two layers of plastic. In the blue ray disk a UV cured hard coat material is applied over the data layer. How well will this hard coat stand up over time?