Microsoft approaches iPod accessory makers for Zune
posted Jul 12th 2006 3:08PM
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It was inevitable: we get confirmation that the Zune is for real, and now Microsoft is already tapping into the device accessories market. They don't have to go far to find a slew of companies ready and willing to pop out goodies for their new DAP; it's presumably as simple as calling up the folks who make accessories for that other portable music player. iLounge has it that apparently the Zune will feature a proprietary expansion port not so different in function from the iPod's dock connector, and Microsoft is reportedly offering contracts which would allow partners to officially accessorize at a lower rate than Apple's "Made for iPod" program. It was fairly obvious that Zune's release would spark another Mac vs. PC embroilment, so it's no surprise Microsoft is likely covering their bases and making sure their own accessory lineup is ready.
So is this thing going to work easily with a mac?
Using MS' xbox group to design this device has good and bad points... nice clean lines and a good user interface are important, but I am more than a little concerned about the size of the battery case for the Zune. =P
But honestly, did they have to use Nintendo's 'Device Naming Dept.' to come up with the name?
My guess is that this will be Windows-only, 5% of the U.S. market is Mac, and about 3% of that have a Windows PC anyway, and any new Mac users can install Windows with BootCamp/Parallels.
Microsoft is just trying to eclipse the iPod's Halo effect, and generate something big before Vista...
Personally I'm sold:: Xbox 360 + Zune + Vista will be cheaper and hopefully an improvement on PS3 + iPod + MacOSX
I really think people are underestimating Microsoft here. I'm not saying they're guaranteed success, but there's going to be one hell of a fight.
The real casualties, however, are going to be the media players of companies like Sandisk and Creative, who don't have the marketshare to withstand Microsoft's assault. They'll end up as collateral damage.
The largest problem Microsoft faces is how to get anything resembling Apple's "coolness" factor. Microsoft needs to generate a new brand where Apple was able to rely on their own for the iPod, simply because Microsoft isn't cool.
Microsoft's done it once before, though; the Xbox was rather successful, though not profitable, in establishing a respected brand. The Playstation, though not as dominant in its respective field as the iPod is now, had dominated in the last round of consoles. Despite this, Microsoft successfully built a brand and basically tied with Nintendo in the last round; that's extremely significant, given that Nintendo's been in the gaming market longer than anyone.
Although I'm a dedicated iPod and Apple owner, I look forward to seeing what Microsoft pulls out of its collective hat. They could utterly disappoint, especially if they stick with their PMC software and have an uninspired design. But then again, it generally takes Microsoft three revisions to get something completely right anyways. Just look at Pocket PC/Windows Mobile; the third iteration was the beginning of the end for Palm.
If M$ takes on it's "partners," it's like shitting in their own bed. Love to see how everyone conspires to poison M$'s soup in months to come.
5% of the U.S. market is Mac
Yes, but more like 15++ % of the home users who routinely use a music player have Macs.
My own Dept here in a WinTel shop - of 17 people, 4 have Macs at home.
Not a FanBoy but a statistician
Embroilment is a cool word, I take back what I was ayin about you guys.
i think we'll all get used to zune... new names can sometimes take awhile to grow on us. we hated the wii and now that the name has been around for awhile, it's actually not that bad. zune works as well as anything else. if it cleverly integrates with other systems, isn't locked down so i can't load my old .mp3 music, has a kickass display and navigation, i'll buy one.
HopeFully It Will Be Scratch Free.. BetterScreen..
and Have Better Bass then the iPod..
I love the ipod But Jezze! the Bass sucks..
and well its overprice.. Prd..
I wonder if there going to come out with like a lil Zune to compete with the Nano?
hmm.?
Lets Cross Are Fingers..
and if not.. then ill settle with the next Generation Hopefully Less Problem free.. iPod..
By the Way (Glacing Aft).. Your Probly that Guy that Sat there So happy to hear When you Shitt* New Over Hyped (FUN PRODUCTS)From Crapple I mean Apple..Were nothing but crap.. O wait.. you probly sitting there enjoying your lil scracth Up Nano.. as I Speak
Get over it.. Let Microsoft have its fun.. Having Competion is Good.. the Company will make New and Inovated Products and Improving the old.
MS may not necessarily be screwing their partners. They could very well have Creative et al. assembling the Zune for them.
I can't wait to see what is in store!
Hmm... Well I seem to recall the first-gen iPod being a firewire only Mac product.
But hey what do I know.
If that's the case though, saying the Zune is bad because it doesn't support mac would be pretty damn hypocritical, Apple Fanboys.
Has Microsoft EVER done anything original or innovative in the past 20 years? Their company strategy is to find someone who is already innovative and rip off their business plan and try and muscle in with their OS monopoly. i.e. IE capitalize on Netscape popularity, MSN search - Google popularity, Xbox - PS2 popularity, Zune - Ipod popularity, C# - Java, MSN - AOL, Windows Media Player 11 - Itunes I'm sure there are a million more examples. The only way they "innovate" is to buy other companies doing something innovative. The only innovative thing i can think of is Direct X and when was that first created? 1994??
Based off the reports of "more than one device," I believe Microsoft is going to create a line of Zune's to compete with the Ipod line (that would be a PVP, Ipod-sized device with video, and a Nano-sized device) Remember, you heard it here first!
meh. we'll see.
i sort of doubt much will come of this, other than MS trying to muscle into another industry by abusing their OS monopoly.
bah!
Crapple, I run 10+ miles with my nano 5 times a week, and hey, guess what, still no scratches...
Then again if you're comparing the nano to the future M$ DAP an aesthetics comparison really wont matter, cause after all it's an M$ product and they haven't a clue when it comes to good design....
Yah, but Apple encourages the growth of their accessory makers by making their products scratch easier than butter and limit capabilities like Bluetooth headphones. I mean MS will probably make something so ugly you won't care if it gets scratched forcing the poor accessory market out of business.
Hmm...A few issues with the branding.
First, they need a different color. Green is the Xbox color, and orange is already the Xbox Live color - so if Microsoft wanted to add Zune functionality to its Xbox someday, it'd have to pick a different color. Even more importantly, orange is now well established as the Walkman color - look at any Walkman phone.
I'm thinking a "glowing" blue/violet would suit the name nicely.
Of course, the name has some problems too. It sounds too similar to "Zen," which is one of its competitors.
That said, I'm all for more competition. If anyone can dethrone Apple, it's probably Microsoft - especially if they have the Xbox team on board, as rumors suggest.
jesus...between d.j.j.s and crapple i feel like i'm at the non-spelling bee. if you aren't learning to spell at school, how's about at least chonking (yes, chonking!) on a spell-check now and then. jesus...
Reference comment #1 about it working with an Apple... I doubt it will work (properly) with Windows :)
Throw enough crap against the wall and some of it is bound to stick!
Is M$ going to lose money on every zune it sells like the xbox??? Not good business practice to take in less than you put out.
im excited. let the battle begin!
Hardcore,
Funny post.. but they make more money then all the other tech companies.. so they are innovative in the sense that they are A) taking on new markets when ready and B) innovative enough to improve on first to market products..
From your list:
IE capitalize on Netscape popularity (IE became better)
MSN search - Google popularity (ehh, Google still better)
Xbox - PS2 popularity (Xbox is a better product, PS2 had market share because of PS)
Zune - Ipod popularity (to be determined)
C# - Java (C# destroys Java in so many ways it is not even funny)
MSN - AOL (MSN better.)
Windows Media Player 11 - Itunes (TBD, I think WMP11 is better after using it since release - my money is definitely on WMP future releases)
Hmmm.. to add to your ripoff list:
OS2 - Windows (Windows better)
Word processors (Word is sole survivor for a reason)
Palm - Windows Mobile (Windows Mobile kills it)
IPOD interface - Windows Mobile Media (TBD, but again personal experience Windows kills it. My Toshiba Gigabeat S Series absolutely destroys my old iPod.)
Novell - Windows Networking (laugh)
Anyway, keep lining them up...
Why does a company need to make so much money? What is the purpose of money? Is this only for the shareholders? What if Microsoft was a private company???? I think public companies and the stock market has destroyed this planet more then anything. GREEEEEEEEEEEEEEED profits should be capped at 15% Microsofts main goal, and basically the goal of any huge company is to protect it's share, kiss the ass of shareholders and kill off comptetion.
If Microsoft is Smart they will Make the Zune Compatible with Mac.So Mac Users Won’t Be Left Out.
If its Better than then Toshibas GigaBeat S,
Then I’m Sold-That Thing its Sweet.
Imagine Bluetooth,Wifi,FM Radio,16.9 Screen & Scratch Free.. And A Reasonable Price..
That would be great.A Microsoft Product VS Apple Product will only Create New Innovative Products . And Soon we will all have something to Satisfy us.
"Hmm... Well I seem to recall the first-gen iPod being a firewire only Mac product.
But hey what do I know.
If that's the case though, saying the Zune is bad because it doesn't support mac would be pretty damn hypocritical, Apple Fanboys."
All right Tim I see your point, but remember as a mac only product the iPod was leaps and bounds above the competition.
No Apple support means death before it ever comes out.
I would not be so quick to laugh this off, I think ms might be making zume as a test ground for it's partners.
All ms has to do is intergrate services they already own or have, already successfuly used else where. media player 11,Live anywhere, wifi/bluetooth, plays for sure, and some form of urge.
If ms can pull this off they will have; creative/sandisk/iriver/samsung etc etc, dying to licence the os.
Once the Zune clones flood the market , then more people will download off of urge(or which ever ms service this uses), and in turn more money for ms.
If this clone market takes off, two companies have a huge advantage over everyone, these are; Samsung/sandisk. Both could undercut apple(and everyone else) because both, make Flash Mem. Which makes up a large portion, of the cost in the Nano's. Even a further point, in Samsungs favor is they also make hardrives as well.
So my point you have to look at the, big picture, I think zume is merely a testing ground, for the os/download service. Once ms proves Zune works, it will licence the os to everyone and their mother, and that is why Apple should not take Zune too lightly.
Those who are educated know that just about everything MS has done in the past has been a ripoff of Apple or some other competitor. If you think that Vista or a music player is any different then you are one of people MS has lured into accepting shoddy software and sub par performance.
Smart, lining up the accessory makers now - imho the accessories are one of the key factors in selling the iPod. Joe Shopper walks into Target looking for an mp3 player, looks at the different models, and then checks out all of the accessories that are Apple-only and thinks, "hey - iPod has all of this extra stuff you can get, it must be the one."
I have the 4GB Nano, love it, but if Zune is better, hey - I'm not a fanatic or anything, you know? competition=good!
surprising that all of these other players are out there and a lot of them are much cheaper than the ipod yet people still choose the ipod, not for "coolness" Factor but simply because they want something that works.
Quote: "Has Microsoft EVER done anything original or innovative in the past 20 years?"
I am not a huge Microsoft fan, but then, I am not a huge Apple fan either. I am much more a fan of the very small guys like Firefox developers. But with that said, Microsft (along with Apple) have both created innovations in the marketplace. And, both companies purchase ideas from others, this is nothing new in the way of business.
Out of all Microsft products, I actually think their hardware division does come out with some nice goods. I tend to use Logitech for everything, but I remember that Microsoft had the first laser mouse. They also had the first wireless keyboards. They had the first really usable bluetooth keyboards. A lot of their inital PC gaming input devices inspired other parties to build things better. And I think I rememeber an engadget post about a wireless backlit keyboard using induction to keep it charged.
Granted, Apple and Microsoft don't always invent the ideas, but they often implement them closer to "right" for us all to use. Then the smaller guys come in and improve on what is there.
My hope is that this player kicks iPod ass and forces Apple to come up with better, forcing Creative to come up with even better. Then maybe we might get some cool new features in an MP3 player.
This is going to be so interseting to watch:
1) Zune will hit the already saturated market and be over looked for the most part because MOST people are happy with their iPods.
2) Some people will buy it cause it's a new product with lots of novel gimmicks.
3) Apple will release their next gen. iPod "Zune Killer" and all those poor fools who bought a zune will be wishing they held out.
Raskawa,
"B) innovative enough to improve on first to market products.."
ANYONE can rip off any product idea and make it incrementally better - that isn't "innovation" - which is defined as "the act of starting something for the first time; introducing something new"
"IE capitalize on Netscape popularity (IE became better)" - Are you seriously trying to say popup infested, bugridden IE is better than Netscape's progeny - Firefox? - oh look someone came up with the idea to use pop up blockers and tabbed browsing and built in RSS feeds - we'll just take all that and call it IE7.
"Xbox - PS2 popularity (Xbox is a better product, PS2 had market share because of PS)" - How is Xbox possibly a better product than PS2, not that I'm saying PS2 is a better product - that's a subjective opinion. All Xbox has is updated components and is basically the equivalent of any Microsoft PC with the same specs.
"C# - Java (C# destroys Java in so many ways it is not even funny)" - I haven't played with C# so I can't comment on this.
"MSN - AOL (MSN better.)" - they're both crap
"Hmmm.. to add to your ripoff list" - and to update it:
"OS2 - Windows (Windows better)" - Mac OSX (mac os better, even though XP ripped off from that - how come Windows doesn't have a trash can but a recycling bin? Oh that's right cause trash can was already taken by another OS
"Word processors (Word is sole survivor for a reason)" - Yes their office suite is quite good - although with each release it is turning into more and more bloatware.
"Palm - Windows Mobile (Windows Mobile kills it)" - Windows Mobile is slow as crap.
"Anyway, keep lining them up..." Ok
- Oracle vs SQLServer - Oracle was first and still kills it
- DOS - purchased from Digital Research
- Xbox live - rip off of GameSpy and others (even though it is a better)
The fact is Microsoft is trying to fight software pirates at every corner, yet their entire company was built on the practice of industrial piracy.
"The real casualties are going to be the media players of companies like Sandisk and Creative."
if that's so I cant wait to pick up a Scandisk or Toshiba or even Iriver player for dirt cheap.
Microsoft should bundle the Zune with a new Xbox360 for market penetration, killing 10 birds with a sledgehammer.
hey looney zuney whateva ur name is.. if i had an ipod i would run over it with a 18 wheeler. it dont do nothing but the basics and needs acessories to improve what other already have standard. i laugh at ipod owners thinking they got the best in the world. idont!
I don't underestimate anything MS does, but they are far, far too late to this party. Unless, for some reason, Apple decides not to update the iPod or iPod Nano between now and Christmas.
It doesn't matter how good MS' device and service is; they are about to get a big mouthful of their own medicine for once.
There are somewhere in the neigborhood of 60 million iPods out there and those kind of numbers are nearly impossible to overcome from a structural point of view.
For years (about 10, actually 1984-1995 and some would argue longer) the Mac OS was literally years ahead of DOS and/or early versions of Windows. Didn't matter did it?
Nope.
Because there was far too much hardware, peripherals, and business systems, built around DOS/Windows for Apple to make any headway regardless of how good their stuff was.
Well guess what?
Welcome to 1984 in reverse. Apple buys such a massive volume of flash memory that they can price anyone out of the market, including MS, at anytime.
Peripheral manufacturers can't possibly risk losing the iPod market to make gadgets for MS' box. Will Apple make an open threat? Of course not. They will punish companies they don't like through back channels as MS has done for years.
People are not going to scrap iTunes (which they already know) for MS' service (which they don't know) regardless of how good MS makes it because (as Anthony Michael Halls' BIll Gates from "Pirates of Silicon Valley" famously said of Windows) iTunes is *good enough.*
Customers are "locked in" to an iPod universe with iTunes DRM, car peripherals, cases, docks, and on and on.
No matter how good MS' stuff is, it just won't matter this time. MS is going to gag on their own medicine.
In the words of John Hodgman, "Touche´."
Psycho Joe: "No Apple support means death before it ever comes out."
With a statement like that, you're living up to your namesake. I just want to know how excluding less than 5% of the computing market means death.
An asinine, thoughtless remark.
Good Points Matty - When products have become verbs in our venacular, they become nearly impossible to oust, not even almighty MS has attained that level of notoriety in society. i.e. "Podcasting", "Googling", "Xeroxing" - when people use a computer, they don't "Windows" even though they own 90-95+ market share.
3rdsun,
You don't get it do you:
The iPod is a phenomenal success because it does exactly what you say it does, "nothing but the basics." That's all it needs to do. That's why it's called an iPod not an iDoeverythingeventhoughyoudon'tneedmeto. That's why there is a huge industry focused just on making cool accessories to mod your iPod. I would much rather have something that I can build rather than having to deal with a clunky product that has lots of gimmicks that I don't need and can't get rid of.
if you want clunky sloppy seconds, then go ahead, run over that iPod with an 18 wheeler and go buy yourself a Zune. you deserve it.
BTW
do you work for Sandisk?
Nice use of their latest marketing schtick.
you say iDon't but really yer just as much of an iSheep as the rest of us.
Hardcore,
I agree with the Firefox being better than IE, but IE was a improvement over Netscape (and Firefox is NOT the same as Netscape - even though it came from the same source).
The brush off of anyone can incrementally improve I am not going to bother arguing, some of these things are not incremental improvements, they are taking a idea and making it significantly better. This takes innovation, cut it any way you want. Beyond that, lets just say they are innovative in the tech space by having a successful business model around ripping off other peoples ideas and making better products from them... better?
On the others:
Xbox - inarguably technically superior, agreed that it is a preference thing on platform. And it is not just upgraded components. Hard Drive and built in networking.. nuff said.
C# - no need to disagree here, I have programmed for years in both.
MSN-AOL - agree, crap both.. and MSN being better is just my opinion.
MacOS - your kidding right? Windows XP killed it.. OSX may have changed that, but we will see what Vista brings. Overall, we can settle this by looking at market share.
PalmOS/Windows Mobile - Slow? The first rev, not latest release. Try the Cingular/Verizon 6700 or 6600 for that matter.. next generation will be even better.. oh wait there is no plans for a next gen PalmOS...
Now your addon list
Oracle/SQL Server - pfft. Nice statement if your 60 and work for the State. Try using SQL 2003 or to truly seal the deal SQL 2005.. As fast, cheaper, easier to use, scalable, OLAP/XML/Reporting Services/etc/etc/etc. Do you work for the government?
DOS - ummm not sure what the point is here, but there is all type of Microsoft greediness around the history of DOS. It kind of started their sometimes questionable business model - which btw as I stated makes money and is innovative.
Xbox Live - Please. Gamespy does suck, it is PC/Mac and has nothing to do with consoles.. not even comparable. Xbox Live was a innovation for console platforms - Xbox Live Arcade also.. and that had never been done and is making them a killing.
None of your statements in regards to the above technology opposed the fact that MS built better products based on other peoples first to market products, which was my original point.
Basically I agree MS business model is questionable from a ethics standpoint, but it works well financially and is legal. I also contend that MS makes some of the best products in the markets they are in - alot (most/always/whatever your flavor is) of the time because they got the idea from other products.. and in the end they steal the thunder and market share from those first to market vendors. Sucks, but call your politician if you don't like it.
I jsut find it funny that on one coin I'm on MS side in the battle against Sony in the gaming indrustry, but against them when they try to do a "Windows" in the Music player indrusty....
Maybe that's it, they can't do a "Windows" in gaming, not as long as Nintendo lives...
But anyway, Micrsoft can do whatever they want, and get another 280.5 million euro fine....
Hey Matty,
I just want to point out that Sony was dominating the console industry and MS made headway anyways w/the Xbox.
Also, the Zune is obviously going to use WMP 11 (it's not like MS is going to develop a separate app for the Zune), and I'm guessing they're just going to add extra functionality meant for the Zune into WMP 11. And WMP is definitely NOT something people don't know about.
BTW, to whoever made the comment that WMP is a response to iTunes, please look at WHEN exactly it was released.
The Zune?
Now that is a stupid name. Even worse if they tie it in with the Xbox naming convention and call it the Xbox Zune.
They might as well call it the Microsoft Herb. I'm sure BK won't mind the mascot appropriation.
Would be interesting to see this happen. When MS tries to tightly integrate Zune + MS OS + MS music format, all the lawyers will be out there crying anti-trust, waiting to fill their pockets. When Apple does it, it's OK.
I think when the Zune is released, it would be the perfect time for Apple to open the iTunes Music Store up to its competitors. That would steal the thunder completely out of Microsoft's release and kill Urge. It would take all the excitement out of the release because Joe Average would shrug and say "its not iTunes compatible" unlike just about every other product.
Question is, would Apple do it and would their contracts with the RIAA affiliated music labels allow it?
Well, I'm glad they're getting support for this. I'm fully expecting Xbox 360-interconnectivity, since, well, it's an Xbox-branded device. Also, I'd like to see the GUI being like the Blades on the 360, too, as that would be more aesthetically pleasing than Apple's bland drop-down menus on the iPod.
I say competition is good for everyone. Matty, true MS is late to market but don't forget that Apple was pretty late to the DAP market also.
The early success of Windows had more to do with choices. Apple's Strategy to keep everything in house meant the only place to get an Apple product is from Apple so few choices.
People like choices. I know Apple users refuse to believe it but there are plenty of people out there that simply don't like Apples designs. Apple is a very inbred company with a single design theme. And if you like their particular hardware style and how their software operates it's a great place for you. But if like me you're not enthused by the shiney white theme or the hardline propriatarity or lack of flexibility or lack of choices then we need another option.
Will I buy a Zune device just because it's MS? I couldn't ubderstand doing that any more than I can understand why someone would buy an Ipod just because it's from Apple. I think there are a good number of people who are buying Ipods in spite of the Apple name and not because of it.
For me Ipods simply lack features that I can't imagine a DAP not having. It's possible that MS could screw up their DAP in the same way I view Apple has screwed up theirs and I won't buy it either. If Ipod does it all for you great and really nothing else to say. But who could possibly argue that more choices are bad?
Only MS has the power to rival the iPod.
"The Zune?
Now that is a stupid name."
Ok, so you think "Zune" is a stupid name but "iPod" is brillant?
Like another poster said, you guys are trying too hard to knock this device because you are shaking in your boots that this player will bury the iPod.
Better to spread FUD now, eh?
Sxcop,
I am surprised that people don't read their dictionary (including the Engadget folks who admitted their amazement of Apple's choice of name: iPod).
The third meaning or Pod is:
A casing or housing forming part of a vehicle, as:
A streamlined external housing that encloses engines, machine guns, or fuel.
Aerospace. A detachable compartment on a spacecraft for carrying personnel or instrumentation.
Something resembling a pod, as in compactness.
What makes me laugh is that the only way the Zune triumphs it will be by amalgamating the features the iPod offers through accessories.
Guess I would be excited if the Zune didn't BSOD every 30 seconds. More Microsoft garbage *yawn*
What I want to know:
will it be overpriced?
is it made to last?
is it hdd based or flash based?
does it play non DRM files at all?
if it has video capability, can it play other formats than WMV?
does it have any truly innovative features like wifi?
is the battery life more than 10h?
What I know or expect:
it is small and portable just like any other player.
it seems to have a nice screen which is wide.
the design is ok, it is minimalistic.
audio quality will suffer because MS has nothing to do with audio.
Let's take a trip down memory lane:
"IE capitalize on Netscape popularity (IE became better)"
IE became dominant for 2 reasons: 1) was given away free while Netscape was charging $39, 2) Was bundled with Windows. Let's not forget early versions of IE were VASTLY inferior to Netscape.
"C# - Java (C# destroys Java in so many ways it is not even funny)"
Maybe if you write proprietary Windows only code, it's better. Java is better for cross platform work.
"Windows Media Player 11 - Itunes (TBD, I think WMP11 is better after using it since release - my money is definitely on WMP future releases)"
iTunes is light years ahead of WiMP.
"OS2 - Windows (Windows better)"
Not hardly - OS2 1.3 and 2 were doing things (protected memory, real multitasking, etc) that Win 3.1 could only dream of. I used them both and OS2 was a much better OS than Windows (even of today) - rock solid and could run Windows in a Window.
"Word processors (Word is sole survivor for a reason)"
Word is one of the worst apps - tries to be a page layout app and fails MISERABLY with many nagging bugs that should have been fixed revisions ago.
IMHO, Ami Pro was the best WP package out there - too bad IBM killed it as WordPro.
"Palm - Windows Mobile (Windows Mobile kills it)"
Please - WM sucks - the Windows poor interface translates extremely poorly to the handheld. Not to mention it's just as insecure as the Desktop Windows. I'll take my sleek and efficient Palm, thank you.
"IPOD interface - Windows Mobile Media (TBD, but again personal experience Windows kills it. My Toshiba Gigabeat S Series absolutely destroys my old iPod.)"
You are kidding right? Everyome says the iPod interface is superior. Everyone.
"Novell - Windows Networking (laugh)"
Novell is the best NOS out there. I have used them all - Novell is reliable (stick server in closet and forget until power goes out), secure, and very good at what it does. Problem is it is a 1 trick pony - file and print serving only. Windows (wrongly) does way too much and none of those things well.
Also, most of the framework for AD was "borrowed" from NDS back in Novell 4.11. Given the choice, you will see lower TCO and higher reliability from a Novell network vs a Windows network.
Enough of your history lesson for today.
Novell, you are definitely remembering your "good old days". It was flaky, insecure, and unstable. It does not hold a candle to the current networking code in any active OS today. And your right about the one trick pony - meaning I had to have a admins for various server OS's back in the day, which brought my TCO higher. So been there, done that, been over departments that have done both exclusively, had them integrated and we live in a better world today without it. Novell does get props for AD/NDS concept.
C#, true - it is only superior in Windows because that is the only platform that runs the CLR. duh. And how many crossplatform business apps are truly needed? % wise? right, nuff said.
Windows Mobile vs. Palm - I have used/had both. Windows Mobile has way more flexibility and more features. Any gaps it does have are closing quickly. Again, no PalmOS future.
WMP11 vs. iTunes, not even going to waste my breath. You cannot list more than 3 features that iTunes has that WMP11 does not. Oh and don't even get me started on URGE being added in. Subscription music anyone? Oh yeah, codec support...
OS2 - Windows, one survived the other died a terrible lingering death. And I never compared OS2 vs. Windows 3.1 that is a old age argument and I agree OS2 was better (THEN).
Ipod Interface vs. Windows Media - Wrong again.. Like I said my Gigabeat kills my iPod.
Oh wait, here is some news coming across the wire this morning as a matter of fact: http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-11396_7-6550266-2.html?tag=btn
Oh what is that? That's right.. the iPod got crushed in a comparison review against the Gigabeat (running none other than Windows Media, which the judges gave unanimous thumbs up to over the iPod's UI). Funny. So much for your everyone saying iPod is superior statement.
And for the final one.. ummm Ami Pro? That is truly showing you are living in the old days.. lets see Ami Pro/OS2/Novell Supporter...
Word is so much more than Ami Pro ever was its ridiculous. They are not even in the same league - put Ami Pro up against Wordpad and you may have a argument.
-Rask
"Novell, you are definitely remembering your "good old days". It was flaky, insecure, and unstable."
That's hilarious. We ran 3.11, supporting 75+ users with 1 admin. It ran for almost a YEAR straight. Same at the other companies I admin'ed for. And the 4.11 upgrade was as stable as well. Sorry, you really need to read up - Netware was stable, secure, and reliable. A little on the expensive side, but you do get what you pay for.
"C#, true - it is only superior in Windows because that is the only platform that runs the CLR. duh. And how many crossplatform business apps are truly needed? % wise? right, nuff said."
Cross platform is a good thing - when your OS (Windows) gets exploited every day, it's great for your bottom line to switch to something more stable (*NIX, OS/400, etc) without a rewrite. Non-cross platform is only good for lock in.
"Windows Mobile vs. Palm - I have used/had both. Windows Mobile has way more flexibility and more features. Any gaps it does have are closing quickly. Again, no PalmOS future."
There will be a Linux rewrite of Palm. WM is poor no matter how you slice it. The Windows desktop metaphor does not translate to the handheld no matter how MS tries to shove it down the pike.
"WMP11 vs. iTunes, not even going to waste my breath. You cannot list more than 3 features that iTunes has that WMP11 does not. Oh and don't even get me started on URGE being added in. Subscription music anyone? Oh yeah, codec support..."
What codecs, iTunes supports MP4(open standard), MP3, WAV, Apple Lossless. Not to mention subscription music is a waste of $$. I have XM for that and record it to iTunes for use on my iPod. So, why would I pay URGE for the same thing whe I get so much more with my XM subscription?
"OS2 - Windows, one survived the other died a terrible lingering death. And I never compared OS2 vs. Windows 3.1 that is a old age argument and I agree OS2 was better (THEN)."
I'd put OS2 up against XP. And I'd bet OS2 would win. The thing that killed OS2 was IBM's poor marketing and support. It is a technically superior product. Which is why it lives on to this day in some very small niches where reliability is paramount.
"Ipod Interface vs. Windows Media - Wrong again.. Like I said my Gigabeat kills my iPod."
One device out of a sea of poor devices. Oooh yea, I'm sure Apple is quaking in their boots.
"And for the final one.. ummm Ami Pro? That is truly showing you are living in the old days.. lets see Ami Pro/OS2/Novell Supporter..."
How do you figure? Like the rest of the sheep, I moved to Word. Still think Ami was better in many respects. Predictable layouts, easy keyboard shortcuts out of the box, style sheets that worked, etc.
"Word is so much more than Ami Pro ever was its ridiculous. They are not even in the same league - put Ami Pro up against Wordpad and you may have a argument."
So tell me how? Word FAILS at the most basic of tasks - wrapping around objects, free form design, picture handling, etc.
Word is an average application at best. After 10+ years, you think Microsoft would have fixed some of the most glarig bugs. Yet they live on and on.
If you'd open your eyes, you'd see not everything MS does is good or even worth it.
Novell - Once the Internet hit big *1996* (read email and tcp/ip integration), add 150+ users, and it explodes.
C# - Cross Platform is not supportable for 90% businesses, save that argument for government agencies. This is a waste of breath.. plus my original point was C# was a innovation on top of Java, which it is.
Palm - the Linux rewrite was suppose to be done like what a year ago? Even Palm gave up on it and went to WM. WM is a fine product and is just part of the evolution of handhelds (it is definitely the next level over the current version of Palm).
iTunes - Codecs, you obviously misunderstood my statement, but did prove my point. iTunes has no support for non-apple codecs. Can we say Divx? Right, WMP11 has it.. it also transfers that codec support to WMP devices via on the fly conversions. As far as subscription music, your XM argument is just plain silly - that is like saying you can get free music by waiting for your song on the radio then recording it. We are talking On-Demand (URGE) vs. wait and record (your proposed iTunes/XM hack)....
iPod vs WM portable players - Gigabeat was just released last month and already people are converting and raving. And remember all of this started because anti-MS boys like you started flaming the potential release of the Zune... make that two iPod killers this year. Competition is good for the consumer and MS is providing it with Zune and WM.
OS2/XP - Your statements here are so ridiculous I am not going to even argue them. I knew some of the OS2 engineers, good product for its time but it is not current.
AmiPro/Word - Okay, so its a average product that pretty much took out all competition through ease of use, features, in a span of 10 years AND was one of the leading profitable products for the most profitable tech company _ever_. Makes sense
My eyes are open - the reality is that MS does some really awesome things and have kept pushing the technology envelope beyond where their competitors have. No doubt they have had some failures, but they have had more successes.
Ethically, it maybe frowned upon how they manage their business but Wahhh! Keep on crying, they develop kickass products.
After trouncing your age old underdog arguments I have got to stop trolling this thread to go develop more kickass apps in C#/ASP.NET.
For me its going to be:
Xbox 360 + Macbook + Zune
but im going to wait for the portabe xbox/origami version
its probably the only things microsoft do well.
Gaming.
Consumer electronics.
Vista aint so bad.