RFID bugs found in the bottom of British "wheelie bins"

There's been a bruhaha a brewin' in Britain concerning electronic bugs found on the bottom of curbside garbage bins, or to use the British lingo, wheelie bins. Apparently without the citizenry's knowledge, two German companies, including Sulo and Deister Electronic, are mostly responsible for installing these bugs in cities north of London. For shame, sirs, for shame! The Daily Mail reports that the little buggers (which we assume use RFID) transmit info to the central company database on how full the bins are each time they're lifted by a garbage truck. And of course, the ever-entertaining Conservative MPs are all over this, particularly Andrew Pelling, who told the newspaper: "This is nothing more than a spy in the bin and I don't think even the old Soviet Union made such an intrusion into people's personal lives. It is Big Brother gone mad." We couldn't agree more, sir -- surely Stalin wasn't this diabolical.

[Via SmartMobs]

[helio9000 @ Aug 28th 2006 4:29PM]

I've been wondering by cities don't do this in order to better track use and pickup patterns.

[Billy Goats @ Aug 28th 2006 4:30PM]

I'm in Halifax NS, and all our bins have little transmitters in them, and it was not an issue here at all. Mind you, we were informed of this fact before this bins were sent out. They put them in a deterrent to theft (or similar) as each bin is supposed to stay at the address it's assigned to, even if you move.

Someone want to tell me how this little sensor knows how full the bin is? It would seem to me that it would have more wires coming out of it if it did that...

[Uncle Jerry @ Aug 28th 2006 4:37PM]

Lord help us all! What will they do next? Put a meter on our water pipes to see how much water we use?!?

[Wonderboy @ Aug 28th 2006 4:39PM]

"how full the bins are each time they're lifted by a garbage truck"

can't you just have a single electronic scale weigh the bin when it's being dumped? why do they need a tag on each bin?

Either way... who cares if they're doing this? They're not recording what's in the garbage bin, just how full it is... it's efficiency and I see nothing wrong with that.

[phreel0aderr @ Aug 28th 2006 4:45PM]

For the most part these types of bins belong to the city. The homeowner has no say what they do with them.

[Josh @ Aug 28th 2006 4:51PM]

guess their problem is that a german *gasp* company provided the _spy_ devices on those (royal?) British wheelies...

[Pinkerton @ Aug 28th 2006 4:54PM]

>>>Someone want to tell me how this little sensor knows how full the bin is? It would seem to me that it would have more wires coming out of it if it did that...

Most likely, the weight is recorded by the arm when the bin is being lifted. At the same time, the RFID tag is read and correlated in a database to the weight.

[adaminc @ Aug 28th 2006 4:58PM]

Ok, so let me get this straight, people in london, the most surveilled city in the world, are complaining about privacy issues with devices that measure the mass of garbage in the bin? Hey, at least they arent snooping into what the garbage is, and they could, because as soon as the truck lifts up that bin, its public domain.

[tamurlane6 @ Aug 28th 2006 5:02PM]

"can't you just have a single electronic scale weigh the bin when it's being dumped? why do they need a tag on each bin?"

My educated guess is that the garbage truck has a scale on the can lifter. The bug probably just tells the scale which can it is lifting. It would be an easy and reliable way to charge people by weight of garbage. I don't really see it as an invasion of privacy though.

[tamurlane6 @ Aug 28th 2006 5:03PM]

man beat to the punch!!

[Jamie @ Aug 28th 2006 5:07PM]

I'm all for this. My useless neighbours put out 2 gigantic wheelie bins full each week and recycle nothing. Anything to make them go through the 10 seconds per week of sorting the recylables is worth it.

[Gazoogleheimer @ Aug 28th 2006 5:19PM]

I see no problem with this. Why do people worry about who knows how much garbage they put out? It's nonsense.

BTW: The way it measures load (i think) is not by weight but by volume. See the two little dots? I think those are ultrasonic transcievers that tell the RFID chip how much trash is in there when the garbage truck gives it a boost of inductive power.

[Gazoogleheimer @ Aug 28th 2006 5:23PM]

Scratch the ultrasonic thing-I was wrong after looking at the pics again. I think it has to do with ID, like the last guy said.

[Martin @ Aug 28th 2006 5:37PM]

I think the problem is this; In London we pay something called Council Tax which includes waste removal (amougst other things).. I think the concer is that a weighing/billing will be introduced so effectivly people will have to pay the council tax, and then pay again for the waste to be removed (even though its included in the tax)..

[Jon @ Aug 28th 2006 5:37PM]

The idea is that in the future the government will be able to tax people who produce more waste.

Hopefully the pilot scheme will fail.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5291222.stm

[Jam @ Aug 28th 2006 5:37PM]

There are men who looks inside the bins and if there is something that he doesn't think that should be in there he won't empty it. Or if there is something he like s he will take it outm and keep it for himself!

[ukexpat @ Aug 28th 2006 5:41PM]

Buggers = those to participate in buggery...

[Andy @ Aug 28th 2006 5:43PM]

I'm going to check my bin next time it's emptied.

If there are any of these on the base they're going to meet Mr. Powerdrill.

(Yes, the council made me pay for my own wheely bin, so it's mine to 'modify').

[CJ @ Aug 28th 2006 5:59PM]

Im going to go to down my street and remove them from all the bins... nosey bloody government.. its like 1984

[Booda @ Aug 28th 2006 6:10PM]

Actually, it *is* invasion of privacy. It is a tiny, tiny jump from "oh, we're just weighing things, no worries" to "hmmmm, Mr. Johnson's bin has been 40% light for two weeks in a row...has someone moved out?" or maybe a rent control scenario: "hmmm...the bins at 123 Main St. are suddenly empty, let's find out what's going on".

Not to mention usage patterns...Mr. and Mrs. Johnson always seem to have double the garbage right before a string of hotel charges shows up on his credit card, etc. etc. etc.

The point being that any data collected, especially to a central entity like a government, can be correlated with other data, and conclusions can be drawn. Those conclusions may or may not be true, but in many cases, the conclusion would otherwise be protected by some civil right (like the right against unreasonable search and seizure). Yet by performing a seemingly innocent and trivial operation like weighing a garbage bin, and linking the information discovered with other similarly innocuous information, those civil rights can be circumvented.

Sure, collecting the info is probably innocent and a good idea for efficiency's sake...the point is that people should have been informed ahead of time and there should have been some public discussion about the practice before it went into effect.

[bairmik @ Aug 28th 2006 6:22PM]

While getting ready to BBQ this last weekend, I was shopping for some steaks and some cheeckin at the local Jewel in Chicago. While placing the meat in my basket, a small sticker from the steak package stuck to my shopping list.

The sticker read something along the lines of how to safely handle the meat products, detailing how to clean the meat and the area and utensils you use during the preparation.

I noticed something odd about the sticker though. It wasn't made of paper, and it was kind of thick, with a thicker band running around the edge of the sticker about 1/4" wide. I tried to tear the sticker in half, and couldn't, it had a sort of thin laminated plastic coating. I took out my keys and jabbed at it until it tore open, and sure enough RFID inside.

Then I looked down the aisle; every package of meat, be it beef, swine or bird, had one of these 'safe handling' stickers on it.

What I want to know is this: who is so interesting in the meat that I am eating?

[Scoobydoo @ Aug 28th 2006 6:23PM]

Pathetic overreaction... The "Germans" didn't put the bugs in the bins, the local waste management firms did. It isn't like Herr Dr. Z is sitting somewhere in Germany reading how much crap the Brits throw away... These schemes are paid for by the local governments, not "the Germans".

[JamesB @ Aug 28th 2006 6:52PM]

We have municipal garbage collection here, so it wouldn’t be a private firm where I live. Once data is collected, I’m sure that over time the data could and would be sold. This means targeted advertising, pressure from recycling advocates, frivolous lawsuits, etc.

Like every other data collection system - it starts out small and seems like a great idea then becomes a major invasion of privacy.

[Dolomite @ Aug 28th 2006 6:52PM]

You know nothing about world domination. There is always an evil German scientist behind every diabolical plot!

[teo @ Aug 28th 2006 7:07PM]

barmik,
Those tags are like security tags on clothing--to ensure that you do not walk out of the store without paying for said meat. They are deactivated at checkout.

[adm @ Aug 28th 2006 7:16PM]

At least in their country, the Conservatives still get upset about unauthorized surveillance.

[Ryan Waddell @ Aug 28th 2006 7:59PM]

The reason they're reacting so harshly to this is because it appears to be RFID. And any time you mention RFID, suddenly everyone goes all "OMG! RFIDZOR! TEH PRIVACIES!!!" - if they want to keep track of how much trash you're throwing out, they can do it quite easily without RFID. Put a GPS in the truck, and I assume it already weighs the trash in the bin regardless, and badabing badaboom you've got your database all over again. In this case they decided to go with RFID. Who cares?

[Abl @ Aug 28th 2006 8:17PM]

Here is a company in the US that uses RFID chios in their bins

http://www.recyclebank.com/

They pay you based on how much you recycle

[Jakg @ Aug 28th 2006 8:52PM]

was just about to send them in - i live in the UK and i have them, they have been in the bins for at least two years, as my dad knows someone who used to work for Onyx (a company that does bin collection), and they use it in connection with a camera in the back to see if something is in their that shouldnt be, and therefore which bin (and thus house) that it came from, and it can also be used to find stolen bins

PS - how do you read one? i'd love to hack my bin!

[Jakg @ Aug 28th 2006 8:59PM]

oh yes - they are RFID by a company called "World Tag", if anyone wants some shots of mine, then i will, its nothing but a small coin shaped black disc though, and i suspect they have been in there a looooong time as there are custom holes for them in our bins

And the prices for the units are ****, as their is no way their £2 each (i might just email world tag for a quote), and £15,000 for a RFID reader is just...

But people still think what is ensentially something that can hold data and can be read wirelessly MUST be from 1984

[Myles @ Aug 28th 2006 9:42PM]

I live in NS, Canada, and here our "Green Bin" as we call it have these little thing. Like someone else said, mainly for theft purposes I suppose. Not a big deal really. Old news. :P

Oh the "Green Bin" is used for compost, food scraps, soiled paper, etc. It's picked up every two weeks along with the garbage in black/green bags, paper/cardboard in blue/clear bags, and recyclables, cans, containters etc in blue/clear bags.

[Kei @ Aug 28th 2006 10:28PM]

LOL this is just measuring weight, not transfering Bank details. British MP's need to relax and stop thinking every european country is there just to spy on them.

[Conor @ Aug 29th 2006 6:36AM]

In the news in Northern Ireland as well

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=704289

[Bill @ Aug 29th 2006 8:41AM]

Although this device in itself is not going to ruin civilization, I think the point of a lot of people who protest this is that this is another step, be it a small one, towards even more monitoring. Let's say 10 years from now we'll all be driving cars with black boxes that record how much and how often we drive so we can be taxed on road usage. If it was introduced today, people would freak! But start with trash cans, meat labels, passports. Soon, very soon, it's common place and begins to seem reasonable, efficient and high tech even. Then black boxes only so the government can determine road usage patterns "to build better roads" and for accident reconstruction "to help the victim". Years later, once everyone is comfortable with the technology, we're paying for road usage and being fined for exceeding the speed limit based on our black box data. Heck, we'll probably even pay a "connect fee" for that "benefit".

I'm not a conspiracy theorist thinking the government wants to control me. They could care less about me, it's my money they're after. It's about the money.

This pattern can be seem in other things too. "Gun control", for instance. The US government isn't going to say tomorrow "turn all your evil guns in, you law abiding citizens". They started by banning "assault rifles" which sounds great. I mean who needs an assault rifle, right? But in the fine print they define guns with a folding stock as assault rifles. Then they'll want to ban all small concealable hand guns. We conceded but later they want to ban certain kinds of bullets unless you have a permit and on and on. Then one day you have to get special permission by the Regional Gun Control captain to own any kind of gun, pay a huge fee and renew quarterly.

It all starts so small.

[hect0r @ Aug 29th 2006 9:42AM]

Leeds UK has had these for over a year, the council sent out a letter to everyone before the bins where modified. I took mine out in 2 seconds the day it was put in and opened it up have pic somewhere. Any hows no big deal just used to weigh the rubbish. Whats more of a big deal is they harp on about recycling here in Leeds and the council in reality, sells all the carefully sperated stuff to India, it gets trucked to the coast and put on some huge ship once a month. Recyling should be loaclised in my opinon going back into community where it came from.

[AlanJC @ Aug 29th 2006 9:51AM]

Wow, an Engadget post with some sensible comments?

Nice to see only a handful of people being silly abut it all, but seriously, even without RFID tags, it would still be very easy to monitor people's usage.

And yes, we do pay for waste removal as part of council tax, but why should I pay as much as the house next door that has 2 kids, 4 dogs, and therefore generates way more waste? Especially if I recycle too?

Your other services and utilities are on meters, isn't this just another service that currently everyone pays a flat rate for?

Time for a change people, penalise the wasteful people, and recover some of my wasted taxes on services like this that cost a fortune!

[Gabriel @ Aug 29th 2006 10:12AM]

I think it's funny to see people who pay for parking spots to complain about beeing charged for the weight of trash.

But you're right. Collecting garbage from everyon in the city is government's obligation, I think an extra fee (IF the RFID is beeing used with this plan in mind) is absurd... otherwise, it's just tagging.

(PS: I was not making fun of you, people of the north, with the parking meter reference... I'd rather pay to park than pay the huge amount of taxes that are hidden in products and services here in Brazil)

[macona @ Aug 29th 2006 11:41AM]

bairmik: I am sure those labels were not rfid but just antitheft stickers like you would find in you cds, books, ect. Meat theft is not all that uncommon, just look at some of the prices.

If they want to know about you purchases they can get it all from the barcode when they scan it. From the barcode they can tell what the item is and from the price they can deduce the weight.

Everybody assumes now when they see a little tag "OMG RFID". It can be no worse than a barcode on the front of something. They could just as easily, and even cheaper, laser inscribe a barcode on these trash bins that the truck could scan as it picks it up for dumping. The use of a transponder is obvious, you dont have to worry about a barcode getting covered, dirt ect.

[Bob @ Aug 29th 2006 1:23PM]

This will only encourage neighbours to dump their rubbish in other neighbours bins. We already know that our next door neighbours have dumped stuff into our bin recently and thats the only time we have caught them. This kind of behaviour will be rife if this method is introduced.

[Alex @ Aug 29th 2006 1:48PM]

why is this big news? if you read the leaflet when you got the bin. it tell's you it has an electronic tag in it. so what?

[Jon Tansey (UK) @ Aug 29th 2006 2:53PM]

i thought they were gunna b using RFID to calculate the cost of the shopping at the checkout in the future - so does this mean that they can check what u have bought and how long you take to use it or throw it out? - just sounds like a way to send u more marketing stuff if u ask me!

[ryan @ Aug 29th 2006 3:40PM]

Okay, so tell me this...Would it have been such a "big" deal if they slapped a barcode sticker on the bin and not the _EVIL_ RFID...


...Looks like macona beat me to the comment, well I'll just add to make myself sound sane.

[Jenny @ Aug 29th 2006 11:43PM]

About 'weighing' the trash bins to measure 'how much trash' is in them:

A landfill is not concerned with how much your trash weights. They want to know about VOLUME. More volume fills up more landfill. They'd really rather you throw out a little chunck of concrete than a whole bin full of stuff.

[TC @ Aug 30th 2006 3:48AM]

Well, if they're going to use those where I live, then the contractors will have to start making sure the same recycling bin goes back to each house — I seem to get a different house's bin after each collection!

[Alfa Dog @ Sep 2nd 2006 11:52AM]

I worked for one of the big trash companies 15 years ago, and we looked into technologies like this to help optimize routes. The biggest challenge at the time was finding a ruggedized computer and display. We rigged up a touch screen display inside the cabin and found that the drivers would STICK THEIR FINGERS through them when they didn't react quickly enough. We toyed with the thought of RFID, but the technology simply wasn't mature enough at the time. Also, we tried to weigh the containers as the trucks were lifting them, only to find that there wasn't a good way to weigh in motion. This meant that the driver would have to lift the container, and pause it mid-lift to get an accurate reading. This actually made the route LESS productive, and was abandoned. Of course technology marches on, so I suspect it's easier to do this stuff in 2006.