TiVo fanatics livid over Series3 shipping delays

So if you're a consumer electronics manufacturer in the midst of a highly-publicized product release, you'd think that the last group of customers you'd want to alienate would be the die-hard fanatics who participate in your forums everyday and were among the very first to place orders for said product, right? Well judging by the tone of the comments on the TiVo Community boards, that's exactly what the company has down to its so-called VIP subscribers -- you know, the ones who possess those coveted lifetime subscriptions and woke up extra-early this past Tuesday to ensure that their new Series3 boxes would arrive the next day. Except TiVo apparently wasn't ready to handle the deluge of orders that it received, and after two days of wondering what the heck was going on (calls to customer service were met by confusion and misinformation on the part of the phone reps), everyone finally received an email confirming the delays and promising shipment by Friday. Luckily TiVo had the good sense to refund the shipping charges -- in some cases $50 worth -- to these early adopters, but much to the VIPs' displeasure, they learned that they'd be unable to cancel their pending orders if they wanted to go the retail route; and what's more, there was some confusion as to whether store-bought TiVos would even be eligible for the $200 lifetime subscription transfer. As of this writing it seems that only a handful of folks actually got their boxes on Friday, with everyone else scrambling to reschedule the CableCARD installation appointments they'd made with their cable providers. So while there's little argument that TiVo makes a fine product with a world-class interface, perhaps when it eventually comes out with the Series4, it'll do some better planning or leave distribution to the professionals -- apparently, TiVo and e-commerce don't seem to go too well together lately.

[Via HDBeat]

[Alex @ Sep 17th 2006 7:43PM]

Tivo got most of the boxes out on Friday, for delivery on Monday (tomorrow)

[schtum @ Sep 17th 2006 8:00PM]

CableCard installation appointment? How much do they charge to have a guy come over and slide a card into the slot for you?

I love TiVo, but I hate cable companies. I'm just about ready to dump mine for itunes.

[Rick @ Sep 17th 2006 8:21PM]

Aside from being livid, they're probably really pale. Go outside. Stop watching tv!

[Reality Check @ Sep 17th 2006 8:25PM]

I am an anti-semitic troll, please spam me: [e-mail], [e-mail]

[RWD fan @ Sep 17th 2006 8:52PM]

Your description of these fans as die-hard contradicts your premise that these people shouldn't be the ones to upset. These are the one's that should be upset if Tivo has to piss off someone, as they will whine all the way to the store to buy this new one with their hard-earned $$$, regardless of delays. It's the non-tivo fan you don't want to upset, because they are not going to get hooked in the first place.

[Popstand @ Sep 17th 2006 8:54PM]

To "Reality Check", if you like your Comcast box then never, ever, use a Tivo box, ever. You will quickly learn to hate your current DVR if you do. Anyway, there is some added value to the Tivo box as it stands right now, OTA HD tuner, clear QAM tuner, so you could get local HD cable stations sans cable cards with even the most basic Comcast subscription. Also, I would imagine that more advanced features will be unlocked shortly (Tivo2go, multi-room viewing). At least I hope so. When are the content providers going to realize that the vast majority of people are legitimate users, paying for their content, and we just want to have a little flexibility in where and when we watch it? Also, for those wondering, I only have to pay $14.00 for the cable card install, with no monthly fees.

[Popstand @ Sep 17th 2006 8:57PM]

"Comcast does have a killer DVR that's dirt cheap."

^^^^^ Are you kidding? The Motorola boxes are complete garbage by comparison. I will absolutely agree with the price advantage though. The Tivo is one expensive piece of equipment.

[ben @ Sep 17th 2006 9:09PM]

I'd always loved TiVo, and today I switched to a Motorla box from Comcast... this thing is garbage, but $800 is a joke. I want an HD DVR, and I've had TiVo for 3 years, but I can't pay $800 for it.

[JoelW @ Sep 17th 2006 9:42PM]

I ordered my Series 3 a couple hours after it was available. Like the article said, CSRs couldn't keep their stories straight.

After talking to one on Saturday and still not being able to confirm anything, I picked up up yesterday and will refuse the shipment from UPS.

Sure $800 is a lot of money, but this device just hit the market. Any person with a marketing background will tell you this device will be in the early adopter category for a while (people willing to pay premium for it).

As far as the device itself, I'm very happy with it so far. I'm currently on a extended basic cable plan with Time Warner and able to record my local OTA HD channels. Once my Fios TV is installed last week, I'll be recording HDTV like a madman.

[shlerp shlerp @ Sep 17th 2006 9:52PM]

The more important TIVO series 3 story that no one seems to be reporting on is the fact that it won't be compatible with cablecard 2.0 and SOME cable companies (time warner at the top of the list) are switching many (and possible all) of their cable channels to "Switched Digital" which requires two way communication with the set top box in order to receive the channels. Unfortunately the series 3 tivo only works with cablecard 1.0 and is not able to send information, only receive it. Therefore, people who purchased an 800 dollar series 3 tivo (like me) will be slowly losing the channels they pay the cable company to receive.
Some people are saying that this “Swicthed Digital” stuff is breaking the FCC mandate for cablecard support, but from what I can tell it seems like it’s more of a loophole for the cable companies to get out of supporting it.

This will all be resolved when cablecard 2.0 is locked down, and tivo released a new box that supports it. But everyone who spent 800 bucks for this one will be out of luck.

[GadgetGav @ Sep 17th 2006 9:59PM]

What confusion..? Tivo dropped the ball in not being able to meet demand (and what did they expect after **SO** long) but there's nothing to be confused about. The lifetime sub "transfer" is an offer to be able to buy your lifetime sub over again, and the page with the details clearly says that you have until 12/30/06 to do and that it must be done through tivo.com. I can see that they don't want to give the profit cut to the likes of Best Buy when they're giving up the monthly sub on the S3.
However, given that it will cost me $1000 to get in on this deal, and as others have said, I can get the Comcast dual tuner HD DVR for $15 a month, I'm going to try that for a month or two first. I've been a happy Tivo owner from the first Sony S1, but at $1000 they're stretching my loyalty and what they think their interface is worth. I know the Comcast box will be worse, but the S3 solution won't pay off for at least 5.5 years - more like 10 years if you take into account that you'd have to keep a cable box sub *as well* as two CableCards if you ever want to use On Demand services... There's no way any computer hardware I buy today is going to be relavent in 10 years time..!
CableCard has been hamstrung by cable companies, Tivo has taken too long to get their HD product to market and the S3 will be missing a lot of the features that have become standard in the S2. Doesn't sound like a compelling reason to drop $1000 to me.

[Aiken @ Sep 17th 2006 10:19PM]

Correction--

While a few of the boxes apparently did ship on Friday, according to the miniscule number of UPS tracking numbers that have gone out, not one was delivered on Friday, nor Saturday. No VIP order has been delivered yet.

[Jeff @ Sep 17th 2006 10:22PM]

And I'm on the phone with Tivo support right now because although I paid for 1 day shipping, they sent it 2 day. Seems like a small thing I guess but why did I pay extra money for 1 day then? Seems pretty smarmy to me.

[Gautam Desai @ Sep 17th 2006 10:31PM]

It's crazy. The did this with Series 1 too. I was among the first 500 orders for the original box years and years ago and they shipped it two weeks after the first units hit the stores. Customer service really stinks with these guys.

[Aaron @ Sep 17th 2006 11:09PM]

So, like... why do people love Tivo so much? Don't get me wrong, I like it and I suppose it's convenient, but it seems like a dumb thing to have die-hard fans. It records your TV shows in case you're too busy (or too stupid) to watch them at the right time yourself. Neat, and a logical evolution in television, but... I dunno. People just go on and on about their damn Tivo...

[Another Aaron @ Sep 17th 2006 11:21PM]

TiVo *is* the industry standard for DVR interface, expandability, features and bug-free performance. I have owned a Series 2 for years and I have 2 Moto 6412 III HD boxes. There is *no* comparison in terms of ease of use. The Moto boxes are utterly craptacular.

However, everyone that argues price is spot-on. There is also *no* comparison in terms of what these pieces of equipment cost. TiVo S3 is way way way more expensive than a cable box even considering its advanced feature set.

The bottom line is it comes down to cost/value analysis...and that is a personal decision. If you have enough expendable income than anything can be a value for the money.

[Bogey @ Sep 17th 2006 11:34PM]

To: "Reality Check"

Because it's NOT just a $17 install and $10/month. To get the DVR, ComCast force you to subscribe to a package of channels that'll set you back approx $50/month (that's before the DVR fees). I don't want all that crap. I'm happy with my basic digital package + HD at considerably less than $50/month.

However, Tivo @ $800? No, thanks. I'll stick with my Series2.

[Dan @ Sep 18th 2006 12:25AM]

What kind of Comcast do you use? Because I pay 10 bucks a month for DVR AND HD programming and wasn't forced to subscribe to any movie or sports packages.

[Dan @ Sep 18th 2006 12:30AM]

I was also given a brand new STB, too. Funny calling people cheapskates. Some of us are college kids in the Bay Area who have to pay rent and tuition with no help from mom and dad. So yeah, I'll stick to my cheeseburgers.

[zedwards @ Sep 18th 2006 7:49AM]

Wow, I can't believe people actually buy these when it comes with cable (albeit sucky interface). I guess people really do have money to throw away. If someone wants to send $$ to my paypal acct, let me know and I will be more than happy to help you unload some cash.

[Crazy Legs @ Sep 18th 2006 8:11AM]

The problem isn't that the Moto 6412 phase III box is inferior to the Tivo box. The problem is that Comcast and many other large cable providers don't properly flag shows with the "new" or "repeat" tags. I have the Moto 6412 III and think it's awesome. I have never missed a series recording or experienced the "whack-a-mole" problem. I've never had the phantom 1989 recording or the box shutting off problem. My town owns the cable company and provides excellent service. It's the service that makes all the difference. The Tivo users who act all high-and-mighty about how much better their product is fail to realize that they actually prefer the higher quality service than the actual equipment. If the large cable companies got their act together, and if Motorola increased the size of the hard drive, Tivo would be driven out of the market.

[WizarDru @ Sep 18th 2006 8:41AM]

Crazy Legs said: "The problem is that Comcast and many other large cable providers don't properly flag shows with the "new" or "repeat" tags..[snip]...My town owns the cable company and provides excellent service. It's the service that makes all the difference."

I don't think it is Comcast's fault that the player freezes up during playback if you try to pause and then unpause to quickly, or stops responding for several moments and then executes every command you've sent in the last few minutes all at once, or may lose recorded shows and WILL lose guide info during a power outage or accidental unplugging. It certainly isn't Comcast's fault that they are significant delays in any command involving pausing, skipping, rewinding and other playback issues, or poor encoding on HD broadcasts and on and on.

The 6412 is servicable, but it sounds like you're very lucky to have not experienced many of its operating problems. Head to a site like avsforum.com and see for yourself how many people find it substandard.

[WizarDru @ Sep 18th 2006 8:21AM]

Dan asked: "What kind of Comcast do you use? Because I pay 10 bucks a month for DVR AND HD programming and wasn't forced to subscribe to any movie or sports packages."

Well, then you're lucky. Comcast in our area charges $10 for HD, $15 for DVR and if you want either, you'll need to subscribe to the Digital Silver package and get those channels, which is an additional cost. While you MIGHT be able to pick up the HD channels over the analog line, Comcast has begun encrypting even the basic local channels HD feeds, so it won't do you much good.

And quite honestly, anyone who claims that the Moto 6412 boxes are the equivalent of a TiVo obviously hasn't used either that much or that extensively. $800 is an awful lot of money, but that's not really relevant to how crappy the 6412s are...just how much money TiVo thinks it can get from the early adopters.

[GadgetGav @ Sep 18th 2006 9:10AM]

aleghart, of course it is a budgetary decision. It's just that different people can tolerate differnt levels. You will still need to pay Comcast for the service, regardless of what you pay for hardware, and by your own figures it will be 5 or 6 years before the Tivo breaks even with the Comcast DVR.
It's not *just* a budgetary decision, but it's a balance between what we pay out vs what service we get. Given the shortcomings of CableCard 1.0, the fact that the S3 will not support CableCard 2.0 (if and when the cable co rolls it out), given that the S3 does not do Tivo to go or room to room transfers, given that if I ever, even once, want to use the PPV or On Demand services I still need a cable box, the balance seems to be heavily against Tivo at the moment. Maybe it will change, but the only thing the S3 has going for it is the interface, which I will miss, but only as much as I miss my OS X interface when I'm at work and have to use a PC. It still gets the job done...

[Tom Boucher @ Sep 18th 2006 9:42AM]

It's stuff like this that had me pack up my TiVo's and sell them on eBay. I'd used TiVo since 2001 and was waiting for the HD Capable TiVo since enadget first brought it to my attention at CES 2005.

They took too long, Time Warner's HD DVR boxes are 'good enough' and there is no way I'd drop $800 on a box, then the monthly charge when for $6.95 a month I get a DVR from TWC and if they come out with a newer nicer one, they'll trade it out for free.

[shlerp shlerp @ Sep 19th 2006 12:05AM]

I've been dealing with Time Warner all week.. they just adopted a new box.. they will not trade it out for free. They will not trade your old box out AT ALL unless your current one dies of natural causes, or if you bother with scheduling a truck roll and having your current HD box replaced with a regular box, and the scheduling a new truck roll later to put in a new HD box, and requesting the newest model. EVEN THEN there is no garantee that you will receive the newest model.

Time Warner SUCKS. they are the WORST. I am in southern california BTW.

[GadgetGav @ Sep 18th 2006 10:23AM]

Just called Comcast. My cable bill will go up by $5.50 a month to get their dual tuner DVR. That means it would take me 15 years to break even on the S3 with the lifetime sub...! And like Tom just said, if something better comes along (like something out of Tivo's deal with Comcast maybe) I'll just upgrade the hardware. Much as I dislike paying monthly fees, Tivo have just set their price point too high.

[aleghart @ Sep 18th 2006 2:00PM]

I love hearing the cheapskates laugh at early adopters for spending their own money. Tivo versus Comcast DVR is not a budgetary decision. I choose not to drink powdered milk and drink the real stuff. It costs more, even thought the nutritional value is similar. I buy real butter, not generic margarine. I didn't have a choice as a child, and now I do. Nice thing about being a grown-up. You get to spend your own money.

So, you can drive your 20-year old, fuel-efficient Toyota Tercel down to McDonald's and buy a plain cheesburger. Take it home so you can save your money with generic potato chips and Kool-Aid. Maybe you can turn off the lights to save a few more pennies while you enjoy your Comcast cable.

Nobody lives off Top Ramen because they like it. Some of us grow up and are willing to spend a little money for better things in life. Tivo is a small expense, but worth it to the loyal fan.

And as for shrinking market share? Share always changes when masses of Yahoos show up buying cheap crap for bottom dollar prices (or low monthly payments). Don't forget that companies love suckering in uneducated consumers with low monthly payments, add-ons, and upsells.

Comcast is making plenty of profit from their added service fees and being able to leverage their customer list. You're stuck for 1-2 years, and most will stay for 5-10 or more. At $15/month that's $180/year, $360/2yrs, $540/3yrs. How old are most cable boxes? 5yrs or older? Is your DVR worth $540-900. That's what most people like you will be paying. Congratulation on your low monthly payment. And your plain cheeseburger.

Penny wise, quarter-pounder foolish, if you ask me.

Y actual MMV.

[Greg @ Sep 18th 2006 4:23PM]

I just picked one up from that Best Buy concept store in Chicago. If
you hurry I think they still have a handful left. There number is
773.348.4217. The store is called Escape and I think they will even
hold them for up to 24 hours.

[Popstand @ Sep 18th 2006 8:23PM]

Wow. Just checked the tivocommunity forums, and what a whiny bunch of bastards. This, from a guy who has one on order with delivery tomorrow. So many people ran out and bought a second unit from Best Buy, just to get one right away, it's kind of disturbing. Talk about a serious need for instant gratification. I'm looking forward to my delivery tomorrow, but I'm glad I didn't spend the last 6 days foaming at the mouth and crying myself to sleep at night!

[happy shmappy @ Sep 19th 2006 12:07AM]

Time Warner is the one agressivly persuing switched digital video by the way.

[scottk52 @ Sep 19th 2006 8:37PM]

Having both the Comcast DVR and TiVO I must say that TiVO
is worth having. The interface is SO MUCH better, it just makes sense, very intuitive. It's the waiting that hurts.