It's not like Sony hasn't been under fire from
outlets in America and
abroad before, but the latest quibble is coming from none other than the Church of England. Turns out that Sony reportedly took it upon itself to recreate the historic interior of Manchester Cathedral in Resistance: Fall of Man without first asking permission, and now there could be
hell heaven to pay. Currently, the Church has asked
Sony to "apologize and contribute a large donation from the game's profits as it did not pay a commercial fee to use the cathedral as a backdrop." Additionally, Sony could face two other demands -- one that requests the withdrawal of the game altogether, and the other to modify the section of the cathedral's interior. Notably, it's been no secret that certain sects of the
UK have been
dealing with rashes of gun crime, and while Sony hasn't succumbed to paying up or recalling all copies of the game just yet, it did say that it would "contact the cathedral authorities to understand their concerns in more detail."
posted Jun 10th 2007 8:16PM
you're in that church for no less than like 3 minutes
I was in that church for about 2 minutes, it's not a big deal.
Yea I was gunna say the same Paul. You fight like 20 guys and then you are out. I think the Church should stick with their spiritual matters and stop trying to make a quick buck.
Is't that what church is all about? Making a quick buck?
well jypson... if that's what they're asking for... then that's what it seems
The church vestry owns the rights to the building's semblance and architecture. It is a legitimate case of copyright infringement.
I agree with you James. The church has a case. It's only made worse by the fact that it's supposed to be holy place. To put it in a game and have a bunch of gunfire going on in it is just tacky and disrespectful to the parish and their religion. But really, if the church owns the likeness, then Sony needs to pay up. No matter what building or structure stands there, Sony, as a multi-billion doller conglomerate, should've had to forsight to ask for permission. Simple as that.
That's the real issue.
If the Church wasn't so concerned with getting media attention, they would ask Sony for a small amount of compensation and end the matter completely.
"The church vestry owns the rights to the building's semblance and architecture. It is a legitimate case of copyright infringement."
Does it? The last major architectural work on the Cathedral was about 150 years ago, so I doubt they have a valid objection on the basis of copyright. The church does have the right to restrict commercial use of the photography etc it permits on premises, but I'm not sure if that is involved here or not.
Sweet. The next time someone makes a building that slightly resembles this new cube shaped building I'm making, I can sue them and I'll be rich!!
Sorry, no. You cannot copyright a view of something. You can copyright a photograph, a sound recording, a video, a piece of writing. A work. You cannot copyright the grand canyon, or the view from the Golden Gate Bridge, or your dog.
And the Church of England is funded by taxpayer dollars, as England is a theocracy with the Queen as head of the church. Bad form to try to wring money from people for nonsensical claims of copyright when you haven't had to work for a living in four hundred years because people are forced to give your cult money on pain of imprisonment.
Now *this* is a reasonable thread. I agree that copyright isn't quite the best fit, it sounds more like defamation.
And the Church of England is funded by taxpayer dollars...
It's funded by donations, investments and a few other sources, but thankfully not my taxes.
http://www.cofe.anglican.org/info/funding/#where
Oh, it's Pounds not dollars.
Should half of europe complain about the war games they feature in? many levels in Call of Duty / Medal of Honour feautre town sections and i can remember shotting a gun in a church.
Sony just needed a church to moddel theres on to make it realistic graphics. they must have taken lots of photos in the church to moddel on, how would they do that without church permission???
I've posted an article on our blog looking at the legal issues. It's at http://impact.freethcartwright.com/2007/06/church_of_engla.html. Section 62 of the Copyright, Designs & Patents Act 1988 will be a problem for the Church if it brings a claim.
Well, considering the Anglican church basically just stole the Cathedral from the Catholics, they're one to talk. Maybe Sony can donate the money to the Catholics instead.
Shouldn't the church be going after the Chimera? It was those scum who invaded the church in the first place. Our hero, Nathan Hale was just trying to clean them out of it.
LOL... i got that,,, clever
I was reading another article about this, GameSpot I think, and Sony claims that they DID get all the permissions neccesary to use the cathedral in their game. My guess is someone in the church was out of the loop and looking to pull a jack thompson.
I read a similar one, except on BBC. Sony does actually claim to have asked for permission.. but who knows which one is telling the truth..
I don't see how the church couldn't know about it, I assume the developers would have had to spend a fair amount of time in there getting pictures and such stuff?
How did they find out that the church was in the game in the first place?
I work for a church and we play 360 and Wii. PS3 is just trash and way below our standard. As a church they should hold themselves to a higher standard and not play crap like PS3.
--Fanboy
All else aside, there's something wrong about demanding a donation.
At least they are not suing straight out, and at least willing to negotiate a fair price for using the churches property. It has nothing to do with religion, its about fairness and following the law. How many fortune top 100 would "ask for donation" instead of sending a "cease and desist letter". Exactly...
I agree that asking for a donation is bizzar... it's NOT because they're willing to negotiate though LOL- they just dont have a case
The problem with sending a donation is that once you have sent it to one you set a precedent for many private businesses and city councils to follow.
Personally i feel that with the building being a notable icon it should expect this. How many games have you seen structured in and around the white house? granted it is a little different but the under lying principle is the same
If the church sues, they have to hire/pay their lawyers for the legal proceedings. Doing it this way, they avoid the extra costs, and instead threaten Sony with distaste from anyone in the public that would support them (and I'm willing to [demand donation] that any good Anglican(?) would throw away their Sixaxis for their faith).
lol, demanding large donation?? it sounds awfully like "extortion". :)
wasn't the church of england formed because a certain king couldn't get head, so he chopped off his wives head instead, one by one, then set up the church to be allowed to get a divorce, ALL religion is crazy, oops i think i may have started a storm here.
Nice to know you lump billions of people in the world into a groups that are ALL CRAZY...
Hmm.. I think someone was slapped to hard on the hands in catholic school :)
j/k, but really let people believe what they want to in a religion as long as its not hurting other people.
If you believe in an invisible sky-wizard who watches everything you do and will send you to an underground lake of fire if you ever touch your private parts (and yet, professes to "love" you), then yes indeed you are crazy.
"let people believe what they want to in a religion as long as its not hurting other people. "
That's the trouble. It DOES hurt people.
And yes - everybody who believes in religion is crazy.
It is ironic that Sony, who's so concerned with people ripping of their DVD's and music (rootkit anyone?), is faced with a copyright lawsuit. God does have a sense of humor!
Then again, there is nothing like a little Plenary Indulgence... tithe Sony, TITHE!!
The rootkit was Sony BMG's doing, and Sony as an entity only owns 50% of it. The rest of Sony didn't know what was going on. In any event the effect was minimal. The rootkit was on shitty music, and on a small quantity at that. They pulled it quit and paid the price for doing it.
Wait a minute. What's the church doing playing video games?
Sony should have TOTALLY seen that one coming. They should pay for their stupidity.
no no, if everyone had to pay for being stupid, he whole world would be on bankruptcy...
Well, it'd give an incentive not to do stupid things, stupid.
It doesn't matter what you're doing in the church. The fact is that it's there, it's an OBVIOUS representation and there's no proof that permission was given to use it in a game that blatantly promotes violence.
Everybody knows that in 2007, if you do something like that you're asking for trouble. Put the controller down and read a newspaper or have a conversation with someone--keep up with the rest of us out here in reality.
yeah i got allot of hits from teachers at school, but worse than that my mother always scared the life out of me, always saying that the devil will suck me down to hell every-time i was a bad boy, talk about messing with a kids mind, i think i need to see my head shrink again
The church should be happy,at least now if ever someone who goes to that church travels back in time to an alternate dimension theyl know the perfect tactics for dealing with the chimera.....
I wonder what the financial status of the cathedral is... in no large secret that cathedral cost large amounts of money to maintain, take Lincoln cathedral, that has something like a week running and maintenance costs of ~£50,000.
It seems that this apparently unfortunate and disrespectful state of affairs would appear to be blessing some might say.
I'd be surprised as Jypson said, that someone wasn't just out of the loop. I expect we'll never know since this story is getting such hyped media attention, would certainly be humiliating to the church if this was the case
However this is mere speculation ;>
I just can't help feel there is something dubious about this whole thing.
"Sorry, no. You cannot copyright a view of something."
This is sort of true... First of all, they did not use the outside of the building but rather the interior. Once inside you are bound under the rules of the establishment.
Also, while I do not know UK laws, there are countries where commercial use of landmarks is prohibited without express license.
see Greece vs. Verizon lawsuit where verizon used images of the Parthenon in an ad.
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200706071411DOWJONESDJONLINE000904_FORTUNE5.htm
As an elf I consider Azeroth to be my holy land. WoW owes me big.
I hope the Sony sue the church lol
Church of England?
Sony should just get on some ships and try to find a land where they won't be persecuted, and where they will be allowed to live their lives like they want to. Without being forced to succumb to the wishes of the Church of England.
How did the church find out anyway? Wouldn't playing a game where the objective is to kill somewhat of a sin?
I guess we can add creativity to the list of things that the church wants to hold back.
the church is the heritage of everyone in England and everyone who's ancestors built / contributed to through tithe or whatever else and it is the right of everyone to use the image of it in any artistic or otherwise way that they please and the church is not only overlooking this but also has no case as your CAN'T copyright copyright the idea of a historical place... AND all they're asking for is money to use it... which means they're simply looking to profit from this
I'm going to go get a copyright on plywood crates tomorrow, and sue every developer of every first-person shooter game that has ever been made.
Ha ha!
That's all I have to say.
church thinks should they have a say in everything. Now theyre trying to get a dollar.
I love that everyone here is backing sony and sees how stupid it is.
Just to split the atoms within hairs for fun:
Artistic depictions that are way more offensive than this have been defended.
I hope artists take issue with this, but show integrity by not demanding defamation damages from the church.
The church ends up turning on artists. That's philosophical infighting, there.
This is a fun can-o-worms. :)
I've never liked some of the church's commissioned depictions of Christ, if you want to go THAT far. Too violent a focus for such a peaceful man.
Then of course the end of the world prophecies. They've screwed up many a kid's outlook on humanity, and they claim absolute validity! Not sci-fi license over already past events.
Sony should apologise out of pure politeness, but refuse to back down on the principle of artistic freedom.
theyre claiming theres a shootout in the church when you have to kill 100s of people but i thought you mostly kill chimera and not people
@ thomas_malkin
The Church of England is not funded by the Tax Payer, The Queen is the head of the Church but has no say in where Tax Money goes. Some Churchs do get what are called "Heritage Grants" to maintain them, and from your post I woul guess you are from the USA so you would be unaware of what Heritage is due to the fact your country is so young and any group of people (ie Native American Indians) who would have had a heritage have been wiped out.
In all fairnes though to Sony I don't think they should have a problem, as long as the Church in the game is all computer generated and photos etc weren't used for textures the church doesn't have a leg to stand on. To be quite sinical about it I actually think this sounds a bit like a publicity stunt - there is no good or bad publicity, just publicity
"What's so holy about the Church of England Anyways? There's nothing but a long list of hypocrite church leaders and bloody massacres that have occurred because of them for over a millennium. The Church of Satan (England) can go to hell. - kompression"
Erm, you do realise the Church of England was founded in 1534? That's 473 years ago, which is less than half of a millennium... The CoE hasn't partaken in any religious bloody massacres that I can think of (and any smart arse that brings up stuff like Protestantism vs Catholicism should realise that violence was never sanctioned by either side) - if you're thinking of the Crusades, well that was done in the time of Catholicism...
By the way, I'm no religious at all, so don't put me down as some CoE supporter. For the record, I think they're a bunch of idiots.
well the game has been out how long? and the bishop only just got around to his outrage now? guess his appeal needs money or whatever then......
cynical i guess, but claiming off sony (the publisher not the developer natch) is ridiculous - encouraging gun crime? er no - the whole game is about saving england against alien invaders? it's not like even a wwII sime where you shoot nazis for christ sakes.....
besides one would have thought some publicity in-game would maybe stir up a bit of interest in his cathedral, it's not like the church is overflowing with worshippers these days.....which brings me to my final point: the majority in this country are non-religious, isn't it about time we stopped listening to self-righteous morons who seek to impose their pompous preachings on the rest of us under the basis of bad fiction, especially when it's generally these same people who abuse their positions to commit the self-same sins they preach against?
sony should just soak up the unexpected publicity and ignore this idiot.
Manchester Cathedral is a beautiful building, just a short walk away is a place called Hanging Ditch. I'm sure you can guess what they used to do there, Sony better watch out!
You never cease to amaze me engadget.
Deleting my comment just proves your as biased and racist as the next bunch.
(refers to a post that was deleted)
It went something along the lines of "Muslims complain about Mosques being blown up in a video game, they're not open minded. The Church complains and it's a whole field day because we're in an unjust world."
This is rediculas. I live i Manchester and this is on the news about how the Church is offended because this is inappropriate jut because there is some gun crime. I always thought that gangs carried pistols with dodgey barrels and sometimes sawn-off shot guns. Not post WW2 Carbine.
look past the ovbious. the church and the mediatorial shadows that work with the christian church have been paid by sony to get the game its advertising on tv, just like the hype about grand theft auto was all about. Also, a key things about the bbc news reports that aired this was the time is was aired, about 4-5pm when i remeber first seeing it, key time for kids to watch it and go out and by the game on the internet (as age restrctions mean nothing nowadays). They very obviously put the name and platform of the game up, showed the best bits of the game, and hyped up the hate. Just like the hype of hatred between christianty and marilyn manson is. Maybee in n over my head, but if im wrong, theres a side of it that is right. This is the best thing to ever happen for sonys PS3 so far (as the ps3 isnt doing well, this is what they want fools!)
Love wild bill
www.wildbillonline.co.uk
First of all, as one poster mentioned, if there were legitimate legal grounds for these demands, Insomniac Games--the developer--should have come under fire as much as Sony. That said, the publisher will always be the one who eventually takes the blunt of a controversy, and this can only hurt them and the video game industry in the eyes of non-'gamers' if it isn't handled properly. And Lord knows (ha), Sony knows how to mishandle PS3-related issues.
This isn't a case of copyright/patent infringement, but a symbolic desecration of a holy monument to those who recognize it as such--the same type of desecration we see recreated in film, television, and literature time and time again (which, I suspect, nothing is said about). There are two reasons there is even an issue being made about this: there is the most money to be had (video games > everything else but porn), and it comes from a place that has been made out to be the most vulnerable. The reason why there’s as much to-do about violence/sex/potential-moral-detriment in video games is because every time a Jack Thompson adds his argument to the tubful that stand perpetually raised against ‘video games,’ the industry remains an impersonal entity with nameless identities and faceless fans, and collectively takes its slap on the wrist so not to risk losing their ability to buy and sell games at Wal-Mart.
This is yet another chance for one of the big guns of the video game industry to stand up for itself as a form of media that's here to stay. Though, as we've seen in the past, video game figureheads are more than willing to take their punches, say their sorries, and go back to making entertainment without putting up the least bit of a fight as to whether or not their medium should be respected.
And that's why Roger Ebert remains right: video games aren't art. More like graffiti, their artists flee at the first sign of flashing lights.
Stupid fcking churches.... FCK OFF!