Washing machines that
somehow remove the odors and spots from your garments sans the
use of water have been around the block a
time or two, and while we've heard a mad scientist claim that he discovered
soap-free cleaning, it's
Haier who's making him look brilliant. The detergentless WasH20 reportedly works by breaking down water molecules into OH- and H+ ions, and while we hardly recall the last chemistry course we took, we suppose we'll believe the claims for now. Apparently, the stains on the linens are "attracted and retained by ions of OH-, while the clothes are sterilized by the H+ ions." Word on the street has this one landing in France soon for around €699 ($957), but don't be
surprised if your threads come out of the wash mutated, vaporized, or worst of all, smelling exactly like they did when they went in.
[Thanks, Philippe T.]
posted Jul 30th 2007 1:18AM
My mom could use that ^_^
Water is a molecule, not an ionic compound. Hence, it cannot be broken into ions. Hence, making this whole thing bullshit.
..Guy, ever heard of bases and acids?
@John Galt:
Nice name. You're clearly trolling, but I always was a sucker for the bait. Please ignore this link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-ionization_of_water
Haier = Chinese brand. I try not to buy Chinese when ever possible.
you must lead a very spartan existence these days, i imagine... kinda like the unibomber?
Somethings are unavoidably Chinese made like Computers. But things like major appliances, I still have a choice and choose other brands.
Please man, cut the crap - it doesn't matter if its Chinese, American or European - theres shitty companies and good companies everywhere - stop that stereotypical crap.
And anyways - would you rather have some Chinese assembling your products while trying to do as good of a job as possible in order to not loose the job - or some fat American whining about minimal wages... Point is it doesn't matter who owns the company or who assembles your crap because all in all its all the same crap everywhere...
Just my .02
Brand and origin are two different things, I would never buy a Chinese BRAND, due to their notorious history of screwing over foreigners, but I buy things of Chinese origin all the time, it's impossible not to these days.
Well there will always be stereotypes about certain countries, but you just have to be a smart consumer and look look into things and not generalize. It is like saying American cars are crap, there are plenty of quality models, you just have to look past the vast majority of crappy ones.
Anyone want to make a calculation of how much this could save an average household per year?
actually its not that hard to not buy chinese things. i dont like their politics, and i wont buy their crap.
i've been doing it for 4 years now. it takes a little patience, and just a little more cash -- but what you do get for that little bit more is of obviously higher degree of craftsmanship.
i'll believe it when i see it, but right now, i'm highly skeptical of their claims for reasons i won't go into.
Umm, no soap? Why two soap draws then?
They are designed to look like the eyes of a square-faced monster, and the gaping whole in the middle is where they spew out dragons.
Maybe they're lint filters on a washer?
Or maybe you can use them if you really DO want to use soap.
Site says it is a "bi-mode hybrid" machine, offering an electrolysis soap-free mode as well as a "traditional" mode.
It's got some funky color schemes, too (see the "Personnalisez-moi" tab at the bottom right)
It seperates water into ions? Like through electrolysis? If i remember correctly, don't acids ionize in water into H+ ions and some other stuff, with same for bases except they ionize into OH-?
So it's like throwing baking soda into your laundry, then drowning it in vinegar?
But wouldn't they like neutralize each other?
I don't remember THAT much from chemistry, but i think thats how it works.
The essential ingredient in soap is the OH- ions. So basically by separating the ions of the water it is creating a soap-like behavior in that the OH- ions will remove the dirt.
"The essential ingredient in soap is the OH- ions. So basically by separating the ions of the water it is creating a soap-like behavior in that the OH- ions will remove the dirt."
no, detergent works because half of the molecule is nonpolar and sticks to dirt, while the other half is polar and is soluble in water. OH- ions would do little to clean nonpolar dirt, grease, or oils.
water on its own dissociates into OH- and H+ ions, but they're present for only fractions of a second. i doubt that this washing machine would change that in any significant way.
its like the ionic breeze for your clothes. in other words its high tech but does next to nothing
In China the Chinese don't look for jobs, jobs look for Chinese.
Um, why was this lil' joke downvoted?
Maybe they didn't get that it was "Steve Jobs" ... I dunno. I thought it was funny.
"Brand and origin are two different things, I would never buy a Chinese BRAND, due to their notorious history of screwing over foreigners, but I buy things of Chinese origin all the time, it's impossible not to these days."
Revrant2394 :you need to learn some history. Its the Chinese thats been screwed Historically by all other countries: Mongolians and Manchurian invaders, Europeans feeding them opium (attacking them when they tried to ban it), English and Portugal Colonizing their land (HK Macau..), Japanese invaders pillaging killing and raping their women... not to mention the Commies killing and oppressing their own people.
Can't await the first H-Bomb mods for this baby :D
I think the politically correct statement for "Revrant2394" would be to say "I would never buy a Chinese BRAND, due to their notorious track record in regards to quality".
But there are SOME nice Chinese companies, like Lenovo, which owns IBM's PC division, and Haier is actually pretty reputable itself. The problem in China, like in many other places, is quality control and intellectual property right infringement. Many inferior brands sell their wares under a better known name so that they sell better. These brands also commonly bribe officials for quality control testing certifications.
I'm willing to bet U.S. brands are getting pressure from existing partnerships with detergent producers to NOT research and/or release a product like this.
The Histrory of European Invader has passed. They should wake up and have a new look at the world!
I love China, I love Haier!
Yea, love them till they stop regulating the freedoms of the internet.
Some people said" I would never buy a Chinese BRAND"
Can he really do that? If somepeople hold some opinion, I suggest they should go to hospital to check his head if his head is full of rubbish!
China is more and more stronger than before!!
Stronger indeed. They have a multi-million-strong army to control the rest of the 1.2 billion Chinese... and that army just got stronger against its own people.
Here is more info translated from a french site: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.neomag.fr/produits/e-docs/00/00/02/07/document_fiche_produit.php&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=3&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwash2o%26hl%3Den%26rls%3DGGIC,GGIC:1970--2,GGIC:en
ROFL!
Washing your clothes with H+ ions or OH-? Love to see this... I wont be surprised if they recall this as soon as it is released!
I just took Organic chemistry this past semester and when I spilled acid (H+) on myself and tried clean it off, it just simply burned through. Your clothes might last a few cycles (assuming either ions will be in low concentrations) through this and it might even get clean, but dont expect your clothes to be in good condition after the 20th cycle.
>Washing your clothes with H+ ions or OH-? Love to see this... I wont be surprised if they recall this as soon as it is released!
when was the last time a Chinese company recalled ANYTHING unless some foreigners died from it? ;) (or foreign dogs)
if you think those companies will cave in that easily just because their product is dangerous or deadly or unsafe, you OBVIOUSLY don't know China at all. :P
I can predict a sharp increase in clothes discoloration during the next two decades...
This is equivalent to washing your clothes with bleach :|
It has won the REDDOT DESIGN AWARD 2007...
They had similar model years ago in Chinese domestic market, I saw an owner complained you needed to refill 'special liquid' from Hair into a container inside the machine.
The OH- ions would, if in a high enough concentration, hydrolyze the nonpolar grease and turn it into soap, at least in theory. I don't see this concept working, actually. Depending on your tap water, you could also get secondary reactions that could really mess things up.
Personally, I will stick to what works well...water dissolves the soluble dirt from the clothing, and the soap emulsifies the insoluble dirt from the clothing so that the water can eliminate it. It's simple, it works, and heck...soap isn't that expensive. Besides...when water is electrolytically decomposed, it breaks into hydrogen gas and oxygen gas. What they propose is an electrolytic dissociation into hydrogen and hydroxide ions, and I don't see that happening without adding a chemical agent. Acids naturally raise a solution's hydrogen (hydronium) ion level, bases raise the hydroxide level. Put them both together in solution, and they do neutralize each other. The H from the acid and the OH from the base come together to form water (since the equilibrium between H+ + OH- H2O has a very small equilibrium constant, 10e-14), and the other ions come together to form salt. When dried, that salt comes out of solution and leaves a residue. Mmm, mommy, why is that horse licking your blouse?
Soap molecules dissolve in water, unless it is really hard water, in which case it forms an insoluble precipitate known as soap scum. Soap molecules have an ionic end (Where Na+ or K+ ions are ionically bonded to an oxygen that carries a negative charge due to one excess electron). This is the part of the soap molecule that water molecules are attracted to. The other end of the molecule, past the oxygen, is a carbon double bonded to another oxygen, and then (for stearate soaps) a chain of 17 carbons, each with hydrogens. This part of the molecule water is not attracted to, but grease is. So, the soap dissolves the grease, then the water dissolves the soap. It acts as an emulsifier, much in the same way that lecithin emulsifies the oil and water in mayonnaise. If not for the emulsifier, the water and oil would separate, and no one's spreading THAT on their sandwich!
Sodium Stearate, a soap molecule:
Na+ :O-CO-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH3
ionic end, nonpolar end, attracted to grease
attracted
to water
You must be so glad they posted an article that enabled you to flex those intellectual muscles =]
The only thing I remember from high school chemistry was that I hated stoichiometry.
For all your "knowledge" about chemistry, you some overlooked one of the most basic principles. WATER IS MOLECULAR NOT IONIC!! It CAN'T be broken into ions. Thanks for trying to impress us with your ignorance.
John,
You have a very rigid and elementary understanding of water. Maybe you should read a little more about hydrology. Fortunately, your pride may be spared by the mere fact most individuals have a similar simplistic understanding of chemistry.
There is a complex interchange between water molecules and the molecules they interact with. Water molecules are constantly breaking apart and reassembling. pH readings actually measure excess hydrogen or hydroxyl, not an overall percentage of each. There is a constant electron exchange going on. In the absence of such an exchange, you are correct. There would not be a breakdown to individual ions, but this is not how things work in the real world. The electrolytic process exacerbates the electron exchange by introducing additional electrons.
While the basic chemistry behind all of this seems to make sense, I would be very interested to see this technology in practice. I have serious questions regarding effectiveness and safety. :-)
John, what you say is half-right. You should go back and review your acid/base chemistry a little more, though. Water can be ionized, it ionizes itself to a concentration of 10e-7 M of both H+ and OH-. High school science teaches us that things are molecular OR ionic. This is only partially correct, and I make sure to make clear that distinction to my students.
Electronegativity, or an atom's attraction to electrons, can easily lead to the ionization of water. When water encounters a Bronsted/Lowry base, such as NH3, the hydrogen bonding between the N of the ammonia and the H of the water allows the H of the water to leave the water molecule, forming OH-. This is why ammonia is basic when dissolved in water. The H+ bonds to the ammonia molecule via coordinate covalent bonding to form the ammonium ion, NH4+.
When water molecules encounter an acid, particularly a strong acid, like HCl, the acid ionizes to form H+ and Cl- ions. Though the bond between the H and the Cl is covalent (polar covalent), the water molecules are capable of ripping it apart due to the high electronegativity difference between the O of the water and the H of the HCl. The H from the acid coordinate covalently bonds to the water molecule, forming H3O+, the hallmark of an acid (pH is the negative log of the H3O+ ion concentration in a solution). The Cl- ion is left behind.
I am a high school chemistry teacher with 19 years of experience and two college degrees, John. Please tell me your credentials, which have apparently led you to label me as "ignorant".
I find such comments as "Thanks for trying to impress us with your ignorance" to be very troubling. I guess I can see for myself the low regard for which knowledge and education are held among many people. I am saddened by this. I work my class to make it as fun, useful and productive as possible. This is not the first time my attempt to share information has been lambasted on this site. I do not appreciate it, nor do I appreciate being labeled "ignorant" by folks who know only a little about what they are spouting off about.
And yes, Chris. I flex my mental muscles whenever I can. I am a teacher after all, it's what I do and who I am. I am not trying to impress anyone. I am only trying to help clarify certain things of which I have knowledge. I should hope anyone would be willing to do the same.
Looks like John's been H2Owned...
I think the point is that the reversible reaction breaking up H2O to H+ and OH- ions is very much biased to the H2O side such that you don't find that much H+ and OH- ions in pure water. Adding salts I think can be constituted as a kind of "detergent", so without addition of further compounds, shifting the reaction to generate higher amounts of H+ or OH- with 'pure water' seems difficult, possibly using up a lot of energy.
Max Fun:
BINGO! Well put. Long live Le Chatelier! :) Long live detergent!
I had a Haier all-in-one washer-dryer unit for seven months, and it was the worst piece of hardware I've ever owned. We had over a dozen warranty service calls on it, asked repeatedly that it be replaced after the fourth visit, and finally was told by Haier that wasn't going to happen. To their credit (and our surprise), Lowe's took it back after all that time, in exchange for a more traditional washer/dryer pair.
=0 i need to find out how to split H and O2...
Such thing will work properly, you'll just have to read teh instructions more carefully where there will be said (in a very tiny, barely visible print) something like "for best results, use detergent" or "in order for the magic process of separating ions to work properly, you must add our "special secret formula" every time you use your machine (obviously the "secret formula" will be a generic, unlabeled detergent)" :-P
Well, if this is coming out first in France, we'll never really know how well it eliminates odors.
Water molecules are not stable; they continuously dissociate to form H+ and OH-, but in very, very small amounts. This dissociation is not permananent, however, since an equal number of ions are recombining as new ones are splitting.
How are they forcing the dissociation of H20?
H2O H+ + OH-
And more importantly, how are they maintaining dissociation in a quantity high enough to have the claimed effect?
Where can we try this innovative washmachine?
Do you have some reseller in italy?