HDMI-equipped Xbox 360 Premiums still carry 90nm chips

Well it appears that despite all of our wishing, hoping, and positive-thinking exercises, Microsoft has failed to deliver on a small dream of ours, namely, 65nm chips for the new HDMI-rocking Xbox 360 Premiums. Despite signs pointing otherwise, new photos show that this batch of systems continue to carry the Zephyr motherboard layout, which uses the older, hotter 90nm chips, though the boys in Redmond have addressed the heat issue a little bit with the addition of a second "daughter" heatsink attached to the CPU by heatpipe. The new 65nm "Falcon" boards -- which chipmaker Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC) confirmed are in production -- are still on their way according to the rumor mill, slated for release sometime this Fall. Interestingly, Microsoft and TSMC have just laid plans to produce the Xbox's graphics-memory subsystem using the chip manufacturer's 90nm embedded DRAM spec. We won't speculate on when we'll start seeing that addition appear, however.

[Chappy @ Aug 15th 2007 11:41AM]

What "signs pointing otherwise" are you talking about? It says "Zephyr" right on the box.

[Loban @ Aug 15th 2007 11:41AM]

Personally I don't give a flying rat's ass about the 65nm. I just bought my new HDMI Premium and I can't wait to start gaming on it. If it dies, oh well, what do I care? I'll have it replaced or repaired or whatever. I'm sick of waiting, there are too many games coming out this month and this fall to miss while waiting for the next best thing. Life is too short to wait for the newest technology, it's always gonna happen in this industry. As soon as you wait for something new, and then buy it, something else new will come out.

I'm betting on the theory that the new heatsink will stop the RROD problems, but if it doesn't, oh well, I will have learned my lesson and maybe I'll get lucky and Microsoft will replace it with a 65nm one, if not, oh well.

Plus, all this talk about the 65nm jive has gotten people instantly dismissing 90nm hardware as crap. There is nothing wrong with 90nm as long as it's cooled correctly, what do you think was in past consoles. Someday when everything is 5nm, will you be ragging on 65nm? No. It's just the next step in technology, nothing more, nothing less. If you want an Xbox 360 now, just buy it, stop holding your breath waiting for technology to meet your wildest dreams and expectations.

[Totalfixation @ Aug 15th 2007 11:56AM]

You are exactly right, if you don't have one and are waiting for it. It shouldn't matter if you get a 90nm or a 65nm chip, they all work the same. With the more recent precautions of the RROD I think Microsoft has been minimizing it with the extra heat sink. This Blog posting is good to me because I already have an Xbox and haven't seen the need to get a new one, but wanting the elite. I think I should wait till the elites are using the 65nm chips.

[Albert @ Aug 15th 2007 11:57AM]

Well, if you have no patience and hav money to burn on a defect system...go ahead. Sure anybody can send it in for repair but it's a waste of time. Who the hell wants to send hardware after hardware in for repair when u can wait another month to be satisfied for a long time.

[Homeboy @ Aug 15th 2007 11:57AM]

You have really missed the point. It's not about NMs at all. As a matter of fact people don't care about what CPU is under the shell, what matter is that the CPU doesn't get warmed up to excessive temperatures.

There are two ways to get the temperature down, one is by improving the cooling and the other one is by using a more efficient CPU. The later one is the better in the long run. Sure MS will replace your 360 if it's troubled but sending in a device for repair can be a nightmare of 2-8 months waiting. If I'm an Xbox live subscriber I wouldn't weeks of my subscription ticking away while my machine is in for repair.

This whole 65Nm thing concerns reliability rather than technology.

[ssuk @ Aug 15th 2007 12:03PM]

If you improve the cooling via the fans, the thing would actually sound like a bleeding plane engine, this extra heatsink should help, but some extra venting on the 360 would be good.. Even if it has a shit load of holes in the thing already...

[curtis estridge @ Aug 15th 2007 11:58AM]

it is pretty lame but honestly i dont there is a single person out there holding out on buying a 360 until that 65nm chip.

[wickedpheonix @ Aug 15th 2007 12:08PM]

I'm holding out until another price drop comes around. After that, I'll probably grab ahold of one. As far as I'm concerned, there are too many sweet PC titles coming (or at least titles that'll be released on the PC as well as on the 360) for me to care too much as to when to grab the 360 games. Here's the other thing: I can grab 360 games used, but not PC games. So a couple months down the line, I take the time to play through a really cheap used copy of Halo 3, or I can rent it, but I'll definitely have to get a new version of Call of Duty 4, Half Life 2 Episode 2, and Crysis for the PC.

So yeah, once theres a 65nm, silent DVD, large heatsink, HDMI 360 premium on the market for less than $300 or so, then I'll get one.

[MacBookOwner @ Aug 15th 2007 12:09PM]

I'm not waiting specifically for the 65nm chipset, but I AM waiting for reports on any red ring of death problems with the "new" HDMI equipped Premiums (which sound more like repurposed Elite motherboards) before buying an Xbox360.

I'm very interested in the games coming out for the Xbox360, but I'm not willing to be Microsofts Hardware beta tester, esp. now that we KNOW there are serious issues (to the tune of $1 billion dollars) . Besides, Bioshock, etc. will be just as fun 2 months down the road, right? Its not like great games lose their playability.

[Hunter @ Aug 15th 2007 1:24PM]

Actually, I am holding off for just that reason. The quieter the better since I'm also getting the HD-DVD drive and it will be in the middle of my living room. The wife is constantly complaining about the noise of my current one.

[Mojo_Yugen @ Aug 15th 2007 3:07PM]

Raises hand too. 65nm or some evidence that MS has fixed most of the problems they are having.

[Secura @ Aug 15th 2007 12:03PM]

Well that's a half-assed job.

[ssuk @ Aug 15th 2007 12:06PM]

Since they never really publisied these HDMI-enabled 360 Premiums, how can you say they've done a 'half-assed job', they're giving you extra cooling and extra video-output for nothing. Stop complaining and enjoy the fact they gave you that, they could have just left you with composite out only.

[Secura @ Aug 15th 2007 12:28PM]

I would rather have a system that actually works longer then a couple weeks maybe?

[alexhrose71 @ Aug 15th 2007 12:55PM]

Secura, thats complete bollocks. Most 360s are lasting over a year before the RROD occurs, lasting mroe than two weeks is an incredible exaggeration of the problem.

Two weeks for the repair, sure, two weeks between failures ? LOL noob.

[Loban @ Aug 15th 2007 12:04PM]

Thanks guys, I am well aware of the technology and the reason behind the failures. I am an electrical engineer. My point is that yes, I admit I'm a little patient, and I'm sick of waiting. Sure, the 65nm may hit this fall, but then again, maybe they won't. And there's no guarantee that mine will or won't be defective, just like there's no guarantee that the 65nm revision won't be defective too. If mine fails, oh well, I look like an idiot, and I learn my lesson, I'm a big boy, I can take it, and I can also admit when I'm wrong, that's life.

But chances are, I will have enjoyed some awesome games before it fails, if it fails.

Oh, and Totalfixation, I will NOT buy an Elite until Microsoft makes it worth my while. I am not paying $100 more for a black paint job and 100 gigs more of space ($1 per gig is ridiculous).

[John B @ Aug 15th 2007 12:19PM]

I have to agree. The new heatsink/epoxy fix should help with the RROD more then the 65nm chip will. I can't really remember but it seemed like the heat decease on intel's prescott CPU's was not all that great when they shrunk it from 90nm to 65nm. It took a redesign to conroe to get the heat in check. The main reason for the 65nm is so that CSM can make more chips per wafer, thus lowering the cost for MS.

[JS @ Aug 15th 2007 12:23PM]

Thats what best buy's replacement policy is for, I just bought an XBOX and the replacement policy. The girl told me if I'm un satisfied for any reason during the two year replacement period, just bring it in and we'll replace it with a brand new unit.

So when I get confirmation of the new chipset, maybe my xbox will start acting up a little bit. Then oops I guess its time for a replacement. Hooray for replacement policies!!

[Kevin @ Aug 15th 2007 12:34PM]

Pardon me, I will hopefully be a new 360 owner soon and I hear alot about the RROD thing. As any PC builder will tell you, it's all about location when you it comes to PC overheating. Open areas and low dust areas should help overheating? I know many of you don't stick yours in a closet or something. Yet, shouldn't natural airflow help from overheating?

[The ZeroCorpse @ Aug 15th 2007 1:16PM]

Yes, it should. And Yes, it does.

As I say below, the bulk of the people complaining about "overheating" aren't even console owners. The ones that have the console and say they keep sending it in for repair because it overheats are mostly likely not taking care of it in the manner you describe. Simply allow some airflow, and the 360 keeps on truckin' with no problems.

Stick it in an enclosed entertainment center, on top of your TiVo, and yes-- It will overheat. Bury the power brick (which does have fans in it) under a mass of other cables and dust, and yes-- It will overheat.

Place it in a well-ventilated area, alone, without other components to transfer their heat to it, and it will work just fine for years.

I'm glad to see one of the posters in here isn't a complete moron who buys the fear, uncertainty and doubt spread by those who have no practical experience with the console in the first place. Kudos to you!

[h0mi @ Aug 15th 2007 3:08PM]

I bought 1 of these for the 360:

http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=75004

and in spite of that I still got the RROD. I've relocated my (fixed) 360 by taking it out of the semi-enclosed area it was in (nothing on top or in front but the sides and rear were enclosed) and putting it on an open shelf next to the add on and my DVR.

[Phil @ Aug 15th 2007 12:40PM]

I'm sorry, but don't forget that we on this forum are just a fraction of what makes up the mass market of games console buyers.

The mass market is not bothered at all about whether it's 90nm or 65nm chips. However, they will be extremely 'bothered' if the thing breaks!

All of this could have been avoided if Microsoft had taken an extra year to develop and test the hardware in the first place.

PR at it's worst.

[tobias @ Aug 15th 2007 12:45PM]

at least these 65nm chips will enable M$ to put a smaller fan in this thing, then I wont have to wake my neighbours up trying to drown out the turbine they've put in the back of this thing when I watching a DVD. This is a major defect, what is the point of having 5.1 out if you have a fan providing a background 'wweerrrrrrrrrr'. Sort it out Bill.

[chris @ Aug 15th 2007 12:48PM]

How much will a 90nm chip effect a casual gamer such as myself? I want to get an xbox and play halo 3 and madden '08. I usually only have time to play for about an hour.

[Gero @ Aug 15th 2007 12:51PM]

I think Robbie Bach should be fired.

[Victoid @ Aug 15th 2007 1:01PM]

i've got a new HDMI-equipped 360 premium, and it comes with a component AV cable with an S/PDIF jack. unfortunately, you can't plug an HDMI cable and the AV cable into the X360 at the same time! if you want digital audio and HDMI video, you have to somehow extract the audio from the HDMI output (which is pretty inconvenient if you don't have, for example, an HDMI-equipped receiver). you can't physically fit the two connectors next to each other on the 360 because the ports are too close together. so frustrating! terrible design.

[Steven @ Aug 15th 2007 2:56PM]

Doesnt that defeat the purpose of HDMI? It was made to provide a digital audio and video connection in one cable. HDMI + audio cable is dumb when you can just use component + audio cable. Think about it...

[Victoid @ Aug 15th 2007 3:16PM]

I have, indeed, thought about it. HDMI video and component video are not the same. The former is digital, the latter analog. If you desire a lossless digital connection between a video source running at your display's native resolution, then HDMI would likely give a better picture than component. At the same time, if you have audio equipment that won't take an HDMI input, then you're left with S/PDIF for audio.

[alexhrose71 @ Aug 15th 2007 4:28PM]

MS does indeed provide a dongle which allows you to extract analog audio while using HDMI. I believe its included with the Elite. You should contact MS and ask how to order one.

[The ZeroCorpse @ Aug 15th 2007 1:06PM]

You guys can keep waiting. I was playing on a launch system for a couple years and I never had an overheating problem. Not once. Not ever.

I did swap out that system (sold it, then bought a new one) to get a quieter optical drive, but again I've never had any problems with heat, or the RROD. Most of that is just urban legend and FUD.

Personally, I think a lot of the people who are having problems with the system overheating are idiots who don't take care of their stuff. If you place it on another component, like a stereo or TV, it will get hot. If you put it in an enclosed entertainment center with a door, it will get hot. If you block the vents in any way, such as placing it on a carpeted floor or flush against the wall, it will get hot. If you smoke around your 360 and clog the vents with crap, it will get hot.

This is stuff we've known about computers since the mid-90s. Why shouldn't it still be true today?

Take care of your things, read the fracking manual, and you should have a pretty low chance of having any problems. From November 22, 2005 to today (August 15, 2007) I've been using my XBox 360 for hours on end, watching movies, TV shows, downloading things, and of course playing games, and it has never had one moment of down-time. It's still going strong.

Don't believe the hype. It's not a faulty system. It doesn't just automagically overheat. I worked retail selling the XBox 360 for six months (before I left that job), and the demo system was on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, AND it was enclosed in a plastic display case (ventilated by some holes in the back), and it NEVER broke down on us, unless you count needing replacement controllers because the customers are such abusive jerks.

This subject bugs me, because it features a lot of people who do NOT even have the console bitching and moaning about how they won't get one until Microsoft fixes the "defects", and if these idiots actually used an XBox 360 every day, they'd probably see that the "defects" are, in no uncertain terms, mostly b.s. spread on the Internet, and exploited by people who abuse their console.

"No! I didn't put it on the carpet! It just overheated by itself! It's defective!!!" . . . Riiiight.

[borland502 @ Aug 15th 2007 2:06PM]

You are right, many people complaining about the RROD (including myself) do not own a console. It is a fair complaint, though I think any consumer has the right to know about reliability problems. No one is harping on the Wii/PS3's failure rate.

However, you should consider this point: What if everyone just shrugged the failures off or consigned the reports to FUD? Would Microsoft have extended the warranty to a year? Would they have further extended RROD protection to three years?

Yes, I can see why constant harping by non-360 owners can get annoying. But even if you never experienced a problem, a farkload of people are now covered because people complained. They complained loud enough to be heard.

I don't consider myself an activist, but poorly built products should never get a pass. You're damn right the problem tickles my PS3 owning soul, but you shouldn't sweep the problem under the carpet out of solidarity.

[MacBookOwner @ Aug 15th 2007 2:38PM]

"Most of that is just urban legend and FUD."

That is bullshit. As a Microsoft shareholder, I guarantee you that MS would not have taken a 1 billion dollar charge last quarter based on "urban legend and FUD". They admitted it was an actual problem. Did you even read their press release about it? Did you even read what Moore, Bach, and Ballmer said about the issue?

Being a fan of the Xbox doesn't mean you should ignore the facts, and dismiss any criticism of your "fave" gaming platform.

[The ZeroCorpse @ Aug 15th 2007 2:48PM]

It has nothing to do with fanboyism (which is what you're accusing me of, isn't it?) -- It has to do with my personal observations, my experience as a retail dealer for this console, and the experience of others I know who have owned the console since launch.

And Microsoft NEVER said "oh, yes! The XBox 360 overheats!" -- They admitted there are some problems with the line, and most likely those have to do with around 3% of the consoles being assembled wrong somewhere in the line, thus leading to a RROD from something other than overheating.

All I'm saying is that I've owned two-- They NEVER got a RROD. I've watched two others sit on display, in 24/7 operational demos, and they never got a RROD. I have several friends with XBox 360s they've had since launch, and THEY have never gotten a RROD. In six months of selling the console, out of hundreds- perhaps thousands- sold to customers, I only got back a few of them. Less than a dozen. Return customers never mentioned the RROD. ONLY the ones shopping the Sony products said "Oh, I heard the 360 overheats. That's why I want the PS3."

Say what you want, but since you DON'T OWN A 360 you know nothing about it from a first-hand perspective. My 360 is on RIGHT NOW, and has been running for five hours (downloading a bunch of demos and TV shows) and let me look--- Nope-- no RROD. In fact, it's not even as warm as my MacBook is right now.

If you want to wait, that's fine with me. Enjoy the void. Me? I'm gaming and enjoying the console right now. By the time it does fail, I think I'll probably have gotten my $400 worth of entertainment out of it.

[Aman Patel @ Aug 15th 2007 1:13PM]

Reading the comments here, one would be led to think that every 360 suffers from the rrod. I purchased mine from Costco in April 2006 and have never had any problems with it. No scratched discs, no rrod, not even a single crash. I'd be willing to bet that there are many more 360s that operate like mine than those that suffer problems. Then again, maybe I'm just lucky. My only wish has been that it had HDMI, but maybe I'll pick up a new one at some point.

Btw, all of my home theater equipment sits on wire racks, which undoubtedly allows for more air flow than standard shelves, and each rack is separated by at least 12". Maybe mine would be dead as well if it sat in a closed cabinet with other equipment.

[Adi @ Aug 15th 2007 1:42PM]

Engadget has to find a way to bitch at Microsoft otherwise all the apple might mouse suppositories lodged in their asses might get angry.

[BTS.WRKNG @ Aug 15th 2007 1:47PM]

Contrary to what all the Microsoft astroturfers commenting above would have you believe, there IS someone waiting for the 65nm chips before making a purchase, and that someone is me.

I've waited this long and we all know it's coming very soon; why on earth would I knowingly buy a console that's significantly MORE likely to have a meltdown due to Microsoft's crappy hardware design and lack of proper testing? Because I'm an idiot?

[gshb @ Aug 15th 2007 1:59PM]

wait wait...engadget reported here http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/01/xbox-360-65nm-chips-out-there-45nm-chips-in-the-future/ that Chartered makes the xbox360 chips, but now they're saying TSMC makes it? well which one is it? i would much rather get a 360 made by TSMC than one from the clowns at Chartered.

[ArtVandelay @ Aug 15th 2007 2:05PM]

Ummmmmmmmm guys...the 360s problems are a little more than FUD, urban legend, or user error. Urban legends, FUD, and user error wouldn't set a company back a cool billion in warranty repairs. Not trying to criticize or cause a flame war but let's not make this out to be something it's not. The RROD is real and the disc scratching problem is real. This is not even up for debate, ign, kotaku, 360fanboy have all had 360s fail on them. Not to mention the millions others you can find on the web or at your local gamespot if you ask a few folks.

Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean everyone else is lying, engadget is an apple fanboy site, or people are making the problem bigger than it is.

[smilingassassin @ Aug 15th 2007 2:24PM]

I have had an Xbox 360 since the zero hour launch event and it has been replaced three times already. The latest one they sent has a dvd drive tray that wil not open so i use a paper clip to change the games when I need to because I don't want to wait through a lengthy repair right now. I preordered a special edition Halo 3 Xbox through GameStop but I can guarantee you right now that if that thing does not have a new chipset I will be getting my money back. I am not going to waste another penny on this POS chipset that they are still trying to sell new heatsink or not. BTW MS where is my refund for the repair costs on my 360. When you were going to do the repair you wanted my F-ing money right away but now you say you need 8 BS weeks to process my refund.

[phisquare @ Aug 15th 2007 2:33PM]

The RROD is not a myth. I do not own an XBOX 360 myself, let me explain why. Where I work we were provided with two brand spankin' new XBOX 360's for lunchtime/break enjoyment about 6-7 months ago. These systems had moderate play on them, usually during lunch breaks for about 1-2 hours at a time and were both left out to ventilate in an open space when they were running. Fast forward 6 months and guess what happens? That's right, XBOX 360 number 1 receives the 'mythical' RROD. I had generally shunned the rampant reports of RROD until it happened to our 360 here at work. No big deal right? Still under warranty, send it back and get a replacement. Fine, we can continue to enjoy our second Microsoft masterpiece. Wrong. Two weeks later XBOX 360 number 2 receives the 'mythical' RROD. That's right, two brand new XBOX 360s failing at nearly the same time. Utterly ridiculous. My fricken Sega Saturn runs like a champ and it's over a decade old.

Buying an XBOX 360 is a gamble. Sure, there are tons of users who have gotten lucky and haven't had any problems but there are a large number of people who do. I don't understand how people can comment here and shrug off this major problem like it's no big deal. This is a $400+ machine that doesn't even last a year. How can anyone justify buying something this expensive that has such a major flaw? If your brand spankin' new 42" plasma TV just bit the dust a year after you bought it would that be okay? No. How about your car? No, completely unacceptable. I don't buy products because they have nice warranties and I'll just be able to replace them when they break, I buy products that work well and work for a long time. Microsoft blatantly admitted to the XBOX 360s faults by extending the warranty period.

I refuse to purchase an XBOX 360 until this issue is sorted out. And even then I still may not be inclined to do so. Good luck XBOX 360 owners, you're going to need it.

[The ZeroCorpse @ Aug 15th 2007 2:52PM]

I'm sorry your workplace is so dusty, or so warm. It must be uncomfortable for you.

Or maybe you work with abusive idiots who didn't care for the consoles all the time.

I'm sorry, but a tale of a public-use console dying doesn't even begin to match my good experience of personally owning one and enjoying it RROD-free for 21 months.

Don't get one. I don't care. I'm just saying you're basing your decision on an extremely non-ideal situation.

[phisquare @ Aug 15th 2007 3:16PM]

My workplace is hardly dusty and air conditioned 24/7. These 'public-use' consoles were played with by no more than 8-10 different individuals in a situation that would be no different from you having your 'abusive' friends over for a game of Halo. Like I said, you got lucky, twice (I find it comedic you found it necessary to swap out your original XBOX 360 for one with better performing components).

My Wii, Playstaion 2, Gamecube(s), Dreamcast, Saturn, XBOX (original), stereo receiver, dvd player, cable box and various other electronic equipment are all housed in an entertainment cabinet and have never had any problems whatsoever. It's interesting that the XBOX 360 requires all this extra precaution and care just to keep it running...

The XBOX 360 is a faulty piece of hardware, period.

[h0mi @ Aug 15th 2007 3:21PM]

The failure rate is estimated to be around 30% which would still mean that most people will not have a problem with their 360. But a 30% failure rate is extraordinarily bad. The anecdotes about my failure, my friend's failure or someone else's 21 months of problem-free gaming are anecdotes, not data. FUD? No.

[DEEZNUTZ @ Aug 15th 2007 3:47PM]

Yeah after RROD is resolved, there will be a massive recall of ELITES due to harmful lead paint on them from our fellow CHINESE manufacturers.

All jokes aside, 360 is the shizznit!!

[Dylan @ Aug 15th 2007 4:11PM]

Now that we know the new premium 360's don't have the 65nm chips, has any confirmed which chips the Elite is running?

[hn333 @ Aug 15th 2007 4:26PM]

I find myself more and more not really caring about video games. I waited years until I got a PS2 and I still enjoy playing it. Maybe I'm just getting old.

[alexhrose71 @ Aug 15th 2007 4:33PM]

Zerocorpse has just cursed his 360. I'm guessing it will happen just as he's opening that Halo 3 or Mass Effect case :P

[Loban @ Aug 15th 2007 5:01PM]

Ahh yes Microsoft, you screwed me again. I just got my HDMI Premium and I can't even use the HDMI port. I need both HDMI (to my TV) and optical audio (to my Receiver) seperate, but you CANNOT plug in an HDMI cable and the AV connector to the Xbox 360 at the same time. My Receiver does not have an HDMI input. So now I'm stuck using component into my TV. Way to go Microsoft.

[teej @ Aug 15th 2007 5:16PM]

It's note Microsoft's fault your receiver is old.

[teej @ Aug 15th 2007 5:17PM]

not*