Panasonic offers up 32GB P2 memory card

It's been a short while since we've seen any news on the P2 HD front, but Panasonic is hoping to extract a few more hundies from those sold on the format by introducing a 32GB P2 card. The device, labeled AJ-P2C032RG, can be installed in sets of five into the AJ-HPX3000 and HPX2000 P2 HD camcorders for recording "up to 2.5 hours (over 3 hours in 24p) of footage in AVC-Intra 100 or DVCPRO HD and 5 hours (over 6.5 hours in 24p) in AVC-Intra 50 or DVCPRO 50." As you'd probably expect, this sucka won't run you cheap, as it's expected to demand a staggering $1,650 when it hits in November.

[Via AkihabaraNews]

[Stevie Wonder @ Sep 17th 2007 5:04PM]

$1,650? What a joke for an inferior, out-dated and no longer supported product.

P2 is going the way of the Dodo, I'm afraid!

[jesse zook mann @ Sep 17th 2007 5:07PM]

replaced by what exactly? compressed hdv? expensive varicams that shoot on tape?

[Max @ Sep 17th 2007 5:16PM]

What do you mean by "no longer supported"? It's still, and always has been, only supported by Panasonic. And they're rather attached to it, so I don't see them giving up on it for at least a little while longer.

There's no getting around the expense of P2. The cards are expensive, you need expensive hard drives to replace cheap tape backups, and it generally calls for an extra crew member on set to act as a P2 card wrangler. Despite that, the alternative for acquiring footage at this quality is full-size DVCAM tape like what the larger Varicams use, which are big, unwieldy cameras that go for $60,000 (not to mention $25,000 for a DVCPRO HD deck)

The HVX200 is a fantastic camera. Expensive, yes, but for under $10,000, I don't think you can find a camera that produces better footage.

[illingist trooper @ Sep 17th 2007 5:20PM]

...and you're uninformed.

[Stevie Wonder @ Sep 17th 2007 5:36PM]

A quote from PCMCIA.org:

"Please note that the PC Card Standard is closed to further development and PCMCIA strongly encourages future product designs to utilize the ExpressCard interface."

PCMCIA is dying! Slower bus speeds compared to ExpressCard media, OUTRAGEOUS pricing when compared to ExpressCard media.

What are you talking about when you say "hard drives are expensive"? A 750GB HDD goes for $199 on Newegg.com right now, compared to $1,650 for 32GB PCMCIA media? What the crap is that about?

And check out the Sony PMW-EX1 if you're looking for a camera for under $10,000 (under $6,500 actually) that produces better images!

So, to sum up, P2 is an inferior, over-priced product!

Word.

[Colin @ Sep 17th 2007 8:35PM]

Stevie Wonder - FYI the Sony PMW-EX1 records at maximum 35 mb/s, while the HVX is 100mb/s. Put it this way - I get 112min of footage on my 100gig firestore, whereas the PMW gets 100min on 32mb of memory cards.

That might not make a difference to you, but it does to industry professionals.

[Stevie Wonder @ Sep 17th 2007 9:47PM]

Poor, poor, misguided Colin. Bitrate has very little to do with "how good" a camera is. At the end of the day, all that matters is image quality, and the Sony beats the HVX in that department using a more efficient, higher-quality codec on the PMW-EX1.

So, FYI, you're flat out wrong, my friend. Do a little more research before making blanket statements like that, as they tend to make you look like an idiot! LOL!! OWNED!

[Max @ Sep 18th 2007 12:05AM]

Except that XDCAM (EX or HD), while certainly more efficient in bitrate than DVCPRO HD, is not necessarily the better codec. It's basically the pro version of HDV, so it's still a 4:2:0, long-GOP MPEG2 compression, compared to 4:2:2, Intraframe DVCPRO HD. On that PMW-EX1 you're talking up, the SP quality setting actually is just HDV video with uncompressed audio. HQ mode bumps up the bitrate by 10mbits, but you're still dealing with the same limitations.

Not saying DVCPRO HD is always better-- the lower disk space requirements of XDCAM definitely make it a more affordable option, and in terms of straight resolution, the EX1 will beat the HVX, but you're making a tradeoff in ease of chroma keying (reduced colorspace) and fast motion scenes (higher compression) that could easily be a dealbreaker for a lot of projects.

You are absolutely right that bitrate is irrelevant compared to image quality, but there's a lot more to image quality than just resolution, so to say that XDCAM is universally the higher-quality codec just isn't true. Perhaps you should heed your own advice and do a little more research before making blanket statements?

[Colin @ Sep 18th 2007 12:28AM]

Perhaps you should take some of your advice! I didn't see any support for any of your blanket statements...

So how about this: achieving lower bit rate by using 4:2:0 long-GOP MPEG-2 isn't acceptable when shooting stuff like green screen for broadcasters. (http://fxhome.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14929&view=next&sid=).

Or here's what Berry Green has to say (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=1048065):

***
Q:By and large no one complains about DVD quality, so here are we not looking at maintaining quality, whilst reducing bandwidth? Can it not also be said (with reference to DVDs) that it enabled far, far better than VHS quality at a sensible cost? So it WAS developed for quality?

A: Yes, but now you've stumbled exactly into the quagmire that is MPEG-2 interframe recording. MPEG-2 works quite well as a DELIVERY medium. MPEG-2 is not a synchronous codec with equivalent encode/decode times. DV and its variants are. It takes equal amount of time to encode as it does to decode. So realtime encoding at best quality is easily achievable.

But MPEG-2 is not that way. MPEG-2 was designed as a DELIVERY codec, not for acquisition! It can be very extensively processed, running multiple passes to optimize it to extraordinarily high quality within a given bitrate. But that means the encoding time might be 2x, or 10x, or 50x, or 100x as long as the decode time. Optimizing and improving and making the very most of the available bandwidth.

Can't happen in a camcorder. In a camcorder you're getting realtime encoding at nowhere near the efficiency of what's possible in a standalone encoding station. By very design you're getting the least-efficient MPEG encoding possible, being done not on a full program stream but on each individual group, and the differences from group to group can be extreme.

It's a great idea for delivery. But it's a lousy idea for source footage.
***

There's a reason that I can go down to my local Panavision and pick up a HVX, but I can't find a XDCAM anywhere. And to top it off, the 16gb SxS cards are expected to be around $900 - which is right in line with P2 cards.

So is it a terrible camera? Absolutely not. The PMW is a great addition to the marketplace. So check your fanboyism at the door and be excited that there are so many choices for HD Video- Each with it’s own pros and cons.

[Sean O @ Sep 18th 2007 2:15AM]

The P2 cards are joke. The price of the cards is a slap in the face. What does flash memory in other formats cost now?

When P2 was announced a few years ago, I knew then what's obvious now. Bait and switch. They're in the business of selling those cards. The delays on the 16gb were ridiculous. And now this thing comes out for a grand!?!

This is the thing. The quality of P2 and XDCam is substandard. Nobody shoots live sporting events, car commercials, etc. with some crappy handheld using a consumer-quality codec. The substandard quality is only good enough for news and reality shows. And those two sweatshop businesses actually benefit from the minute amount of time saved by going tapeless.

Point is, why P2 over XDcam? Yeah, the codec quality is slightly better. So what? They both suck if we're talking about the HVX. I know the DVCProHD can look rather good using a Varicam, since it's a real pro camera with real lenses. But who shoots with a Varicam AND requires a tapeless workflow? Nobody.

But let's pretend that you do need DVCProHD and you do need tapeless. Why not just get a Firestor box?

[Colin @ Sep 18th 2007 3:01PM]

"Nobody shoots live sporting events, car commercials, etc. with some crappy handheld using a consumer-quality codec."

Actually that's the whole point of the HVX - it shoots full spec DVCproHD. Granted the lens/chipset isn't as good as a Varicam but it can be intercut. In fact a Ford commercial I worked on shot Varicam for the majority of the commercial, and used a HVX for all of the car mount stuff. Think of it as an Eyemo for HD.

[wayne @ Sep 18th 2007 5:20PM]

Sean O:
Actually the HVX can produce really impressive results and the industry has taken quite nicely to it (Sony too, for Sony lovers, but the 4:2:2 colorspace is just better, imho). You are correct in saying that the limiting factor on these cameras lie in the glass, however, there are many vendors - (red rock micro, cinemek, etc.) that offer 35mm kits that allow you to use PL lenses of the Cooke/Arri variety, or at an even lower cost point, standard SLR lenses from the likes of Nikon and Canon. The picture quality is actually quite good, and there has been a well-documented push for commercial use with such rigs (including mtv). Check out sample footage from one such vendor:

http://www.redrockmicro.com/samples.html

I agree that a FireStore box may be a better dollar-for-dollar route vs P2, but prices will inevitably come down. Even with a $1500 firestor, $5000 panny hvx (which uses the same DVCPROHD codec as more $$$ rigs), $2500 for a 35mm conversion kit, and $1000 in some used Nikon or Canon primes, you're looking at a Varicam-like rig that still costs just under 10k. Plus it still has a tapeless workflow that won't require an expensive deck. Can't beat that, imho. (especially for indie producers)

[jesse zook mann @ Sep 17th 2007 5:06PM]

Now each 32 gig card won't hold 3 hours of footage... more like a half hour.

[Blaine Oliver @ Sep 17th 2007 5:07PM]

The flash is just rediculous to be honest, the prices are insane after 4GB and that still is a joke, 2gb is dirt cheap like 1GB.

[Xzavier @ Sep 17th 2007 5:31PM]

If you think that is expensive imagine if Apple were to sell it, YIKES!

[Metamorphic @ Sep 17th 2007 5:32PM]

damn with that money i can build me a pc with 1 terabyte and lots of other goodies. im just saying...

[GazzyC @ Sep 17th 2007 5:57PM]

Your home built PC as with most self builds will fall apart if stood on, rattle due to poor fitting panels, have noisy fans running at constant 12 volts, get full of dust and have messy wiring and not save you much money if any of buying a nice shiny pre built Dell or whatever! You do get to choose your components tho, those components that will fail prematurely as the case buckles and the dust builds up!

[mike @ Sep 17th 2007 5:59PM]

What are you smoking crack? My dad built built his computer and its just fine!

[GazzyC @ Sep 17th 2007 6:03PM]

Ahh but have you tried standing on it? Does it hurt your ears? A real PC will let 3 people stand on it and not break!

[mike @ Sep 17th 2007 6:20PM]

I tend not to stand on my computers... Also even with all the fans we have to keep the AMD cool, its not as loud as the Vaio thats in my room as a server.

[Stupidiot @ Sep 17th 2007 6:25PM]

Well, I can certainly stand on my homebuilt PC without any problems (and I'm not speaking theoretically, I just did because I was bored and wanted to prove a point, CM Stacker 831 FTW!). As for fan noise, it's a hell of a lot quieter than the last PC I had built by an OEM company, despite having twice as many fans, and the wiring in my one is also neater due to a modular PSU, so there! Do you think that people construct their own PC cases out of balsa wood or something and hammer the fans in with a couple of nails? Or is your post dripping with sarcasm that's difficult to detect over the interwebs?

[Shibathedog @ Sep 17th 2007 10:59PM]

Of all the comments ive ever read on Engadget, lifehacker, downloadsquad, Joystiq, and all the other blogs i read (Where some pretty stupid people leave comments im sure you all agree) This has to be the most dead wrong idiotic comment ive ever read in my entire life.

You honestly couldn't be more wrong, you obviously know nothing about computers/building them, Just because you tried it and failed doesn't make this true.

Maybe im just pissed because I build computers, But I like spending 1200 dollars on a computer that outlasts/outperforms a 4000+ dollar Dell by such enormous numbers. I mean its just common sense that they use custom/usually lower quality parts to save money.

[Bob @ Sep 18th 2007 2:21AM]

GazzyC, that was so stupid I think you gave me cancer.

[Dustin @ Sep 17th 2007 6:13PM]

If you're complaining about how expensive this is, you're not the target market. The P2 is a real consideration for news organizations and small production houses that don't produce long-format programs. It streamlines production when you don't have to log tape linearly and you don't need to maintain huge tape libraries if you don't want to.

As people have noted before, it's a format with relatively affordable cameras for working pros who don't want to deal with the compression of HDV or the expensive of the larger formats.

[Mike @ Sep 17th 2007 7:31PM]

I don't think I have ever heard of such a group of retards in my whole life. DVCPRO HD on P2 is pretty much the defacto standard in the industry right now, hence the huge pending backorders. Maybe before commenting on something clearly so many have no clue about, you should ask a DP or anyone who actually shoots professionally. HDV is for consumers who don't know the difference. PCMCIA is not a concern since you can file transfer right from the camera or use the Duel systems adapter. Go play your gameboys or psp's.

As for $1,690 or so, retail is for suckers and no one pays list or MAP. Besides these will drop like the 16's to half of the price this time next year if there isn't already the 64 or 128 out by then not to mention the third party companies like Hoodman, etc that are making aftermarket cards.

[Mike @ Sep 17th 2007 7:33PM]

You can do long form with P2 via P2 store or other offloader. If your in commercial or movie production you have most likely used or encountered this camera. Not only by low budgets and indies, but also on bigger projects were smaller high quality cameras fit the bill.

[Roger Singh @ Sep 17th 2007 7:58PM]

3 Hours seems odd to me for HD recording. I remember getting 40 some-odd minutes shooting 720 24pn on a 16gig card. So it should be something like 80 or 90 minutes with a 32gig card. I don't remember too much. I actually don't like using this camera.

Also, The MRSP is what the card will be sold at and there's no reason to sell it for less. It's almost next to impossible getting the 16gb version, and people will be willing to pay full price for the 32gb version.

Yes it's expensive, and a lot of HVX owners are bitter about it, as they all thought prices would fall quicker. But, there will be 3rd party versions out eventually, and hopefully they'll switch from 4 SD cards inside a P2 card to SSD Flash Memory to lower the cost.

[Max @ Sep 17th 2007 9:13PM]

I was confused about their recording times, as well, until I realized that those times listed are for a AJ-HPX3000 or HPX2000 with FIVE cards installed, not storage time per card. So, the capacity of a 32GB card is actually up to 30 minutes in AVC-Intra 100 or DVCPRO HD and 1 hour in AVC-Intra 50 or DVCPRO 50.

[erikcantu @ Sep 18th 2007 9:12AM]

If you are mocking P2 cards for their cost, have fun making your fanfilms in the forrest. I get paid to shoot.
P2 is the best thing to happen to the video production workflow since the NLE. Every take arrives in my NLE automatically as its own file, and instead of a $20-60K deck, I use a $3 firewire cable.

[Will @ Sep 18th 2007 12:45PM]

You should give a FireStore a spin if you like the P2 set-up. It's wayyyy nicer, in my opinion.

though, I personally abhor the P2 card because(as was stated in the argument above) the PCMCIA cards aren't current tech. I have no problem with the concept, I just find it annoying to have to find an older laptop to copy files off the camera(or having to connect the camera via the FireWire to the laptop). It'd just be easier if I could use those damn ExpressCard's that Sony's going to be using.

Either way, it doesn't matter to me, I shoot to a FireStore or HD-SDI, depending on what's convenient. Seriously, though, pick up a FireStore, dollar for dollar it's a better deal!

[Max @ Sep 19th 2007 12:21PM]

The Duel Systems DuelAdapter is an ExpressCard to PCMCIA adapter that's not too big and will let you read P2 cards at full PCMCIA speed in a MacBook Pro or other ExpressCard laptop. Goes for around $100. Not quite as streamlined as having the slot in the computer to begin with, but it's a decent workaround.

[Dolby @ Sep 18th 2007 2:11PM]

P2 is used in the professional broadcasting market and is currently the only widely available format that uses memory instead of a piece of media cd/tape. P2 is definitely not for the consumer level due to its price. For a broadcast station that really isn't too expensive.

The station I work for is going tape-less in a month and choose the P2 system, pretty much all the stations in our market are moving to P2 or already have P2. The local Fox O&O choose the Sony blueray system and even they are switching to P2 soon because it just works a lot better.

The 32gb ones are needed for HD shooting. Typically a photog wont shoot more then 30min total for a story unless its breaking news or a court room and then he/she can just use a portable firewire drive for longer recording. But 90% of what they shoot a 30min card is more then enough.

So expect to see more stories when P2 hits 72gb, etc. Its not a dead technology, its just starting to take hold in the broadcast industry as stations upgrade their equipment in preparation of HD News.

[Steve @ Sep 19th 2007 1:11AM]

"So, to sum up, P2 is an inferior, over-priced product!"

Well judging by the amount of P2 media that I've been seeing coming into my Avid Suites, I'd say it's taking off.

[bobeagle @ Sep 24th 2007 8:36AM]

I've shot 2 TV pilots and a feature on P2 using a combination of HVX200 and HPX500 cameras. For the professional, there is simply no competition. Especially when you take didigtizing time out of the equation. I have litterally saved weeks in my workflow, something I could not do even with XDCam (See bellow).

A couple of notes that may be useful:

- Sony's XDCam format puts a proprietary wrapper around the MXF format which is not native to Avid, FCP nor Canopus. So all media has to be converted. Practical upshot: you'll end-up capturing real-time instead of transfering files (which take twice as long).

- Firestore is great except that battery power may kill you. It was useless to me since the batteries give less than an hour of life to the drive. Unlike lights, mic recievers etc. the Wattage requirement of the Firestore prevents any kind of hook-up to an alternate source so I couldn't rely on my AB brick which meant having to rent a dozen extra batteries and cart them around with me.

- For me, 16G cards were really the starting point of 1080 usage in the field. The 32G will make it a reality since 7 minute loads are really unacceptable. I suggest taking a couple of extra cards as well as a wrangler to handle the transfer. I've had problems getting the Mac to recognize the Panasonic 60G card reader so I suggest transfering through a laptop in the field. This also lets you watch or even rough-cut in between takes out in the field.

All in all, if you're doing this for a living, P2 works and it works well. The camera handles extreme conditions including heat, humidity etc. remarkably well. And the cards pay for themselves in the long-run.

Final point on after market prices. I've talked to Hoodman, they are a little behind on their cards and with the demand as it is, don't expect them to be much cheaper than Panny for a while.