Granted, there are some out there who've been dodging the whole "limitation" aspect of Netflix's Watch Instantly feature
for a good while, but for the honest, upstanding citizens abiding by the rules, things are (seemingly) about to change for the better. According to a recent report from the AP, Netflix is gearing up to banish the time limits for online streaming on all but its el cheapo $4.99 plan, meaning that subscribers to every other plan will be able to
watch online content as much as they'd like. In case you haven't connected the dots quite yet, it's being suggested that the move will be made to fend off the
looming competition from Cupertino, and while this would undoubtedly increase costs, it doesn't seem as if the firm plans on hiking rates (at least initially) to compensate. Now that's a change we can live with.
posted Jan 13th 2008 10:13PM
I wish they'd hurry up with the Mac support.
Second that.
Don't complain to Netflix. They would love nothing more than to be able to support OSX. Apple won't allow it. Apple won't license their FairPlay DRM to them. Movie studios require everyone to use DRM, especially for unlimited streaming services.
amazingly enough you don't need fairplay DRM to play on a Macintosh.
I'll cancel my subscription to netflix in a heart beat if I can get something similar from apple that works on my platform of choice and better yet doesn't have me waiting a few days between movies. Having time to watch them over christmas sucked because of the holidays meaning no mail delivery. A movie returned on the 23rd meant no movie back at the house until the 2nd when usually it's a 72 hour turnaround.
I thought the Netflix app used Silverlight, does it not? If so, then Silverlight works fine on Mac. (I'm using it on a G5 iMac.)
@Tom
Please, enlighten us. How Netflix can provide DRM-protected service on OSX without Apple allowing them to use FairPlay? I'd love to hear all about it.
No, Netflix does not use Silverlight. They showed a concept demo of it back in May, but they don't use it. Silverlight uses a new DRM. Have movie studios even approved this yet? I have no idea. What I do know is that if Apple allowed Netflix to use FairPlay, I would have had the service on my Mac a year ago instead of maybe sometime in 2008 if and when they can switch to Silverlight.
@Sean O,
Please don't keep propagating the myth that Fairplay somehow equals all Macintosh DRM.
Windows Media for OS X had its own DRM.
Microsoft Silverlight has its own DRM.
Macrovision licenses DRM for Macintosh as part of its core business.
Hell, even Liquid Audio in the mid 90s had its own, custom DRM for Macintoshes.
Fairplay is *only* about DRM content support on iPods. Not Macs, iPods.
@namtastic
You miss the point. Name ONE single reasonable option Netflix had to provide their service on OSX without using FairPlay. One. And don't say Silverlight. I'm not talking about something that's 5 minutes old. I'm talking about 2006 when they developed their service. It was either develop their own DRM (year right, that's practical) or wait it out.
You are propagating the myth that Netflix is some arrogant company that cares nothing about Mac users.
My point is very, very simple. OSX users who are peeved about no Netflix on their Mac (like me) for the past year have only one company to blame. Apple, not Netflix.
@sean o
I don't know, it seems to me that you're the one that missed the point. Now I don't know which of either the FairPlay requirement, or third-party OS X DRM option are true, but you seem to agree that third-party is an option, so long as it exists. Why would Netflix have to "wait it out" when there have been DRM options for OS X available since the 90's, as namtastic stated? Microsoft, Macrovision, and I'm sure tens of other companies are willing to supply or develop an OS X DRM and have it certified if the biggest online rental company in the world(?) is looking for one.
^ ^ ^ Edit: DRM options for the Mac available since the 90's*
@dg
You misunderstood namtastic's (misleading) post. He's talking about the old and defunct WMP DRM. Netflix uses the newest Windows Media 11 DRM (likley required to by the studios). WM11 DRM doesn't work on OSX.
Macrovision does not provide the kind of tools and service which Netflix required (codec, media player, plugin and DRM scheme). Even if it did, it would need the studios' stamp of approval. Only Microsoft, Apple, and RealNetworks provide the necessary components. That said, I don't even know if Real has the capability or permission to provide studio movie services.
Does anyone know what kind of DRM they are using. Once you answer that question then you will know who is at fault. Most often it is the developer. Apple's DRM works on both Macs and PCs. Should not the other guy's DRM do the same?
No, it's not that simple. First to answer your question, the DRM it uses is Windows Media 11. Microsoft is not responsible for providing DRM for OSX. They tried with their old DRM (PlayForSure). It was cracked and MS doesn't support it anymore.
Providing protected content on OSX is Apple's responsibility, not Microsoft's, not Netflix's. Apple provides their own DRM, and yes it works on PCs too. The problem is that nobody but Apple is allowed to use it.
Microsoft, not Apple, has just developed a Flash-video type technology with DRM support. It is called Silverlight. It is cross-platform (works on Mac or PC). Netflix demoed a concept version of their service using Silverlight. Hopefully we'll see it soon. There could be technological setbacks. There could be issues with the studios. There could be issues with deals they made with Microsoft last year. Who knows.
The bottom line is that Netflix service hasn't been on Macs for the past year because Apple won't license out FairPlay.
Sean O
Please explain why Microsoft should not make it compatible. I can only think of 2 reasons. They lack skill as a software developer and are destine to be a follower, or there market is so large they just don't care about Mac user's as customers. This is what got them in trouble before with the DOJ. I think they are just stuck on stupid. With there size and cash reserves you can't tell me that can't develop the software.
@sean
Ahhh... makes sense now. Thanks. I forgot about the WM11 Windows only thing too.
@JohnQ
Although Microsoft isn't a Mac-user's best friend, they are still a capable software company. Maybe they favor things like money before a best product possible, but they can still do something if they really want to (and yes, I'm a devoted Mac user, I'll never touch windows again if I don't have to). My guess is that Microsoft, more or less, doesn't care about Macs; and with good reason. It's not their platform! I'm sure WM11 support may come around eventually, but they have more important things to do like keep Vista up and running, and making sure WM11 works great on Windows, before they go making a free product for OS X, plus I'm sure they don't mind NOT spending the money to support OS X, AND perhaps keep some marketshare from those people on the edge who might just really like watching Netflix online.
It'll come, eventually.
Class action lawsuit, please. Last time I checked I pay the same price as other users who can actually use the watch online feature. Give me my ball back, I'm going home.
@JohnQ
Do you have any idea what a stupid, idiotic comment that is? You think Microsoft should be paying to make sure Netflix's video service can work on Apple OSX? You do realize that Netflix and MS are two different companies, right? So should Apple then in turn be providing Netflix the technology to provide their service on Windows?
Still waiting for OS X support or firefox support.
did anybody try it with parallels or vmware? and surely it'd work through bootcamp.
It works fine with bootcamp. Parallels is a piece of garbage and it's real slow (unusable) with it. Haven't tried VMWare.
But I stopped using Vista after I got my first, "You added more RAM on your computer and we have to make sure you're not a thief, so until you call this number, all your content are belong to us" message. Yes, I own a legitimate copy. And, BTW, if Apple starts doing the same thing, I'll drop them too. So it's either Mac or Linux for me. And Netflix works with neither.
amen to that.
Maybe the unlimited update will come with a new player, perhaps using Silverlight, and will be Mac-Linux, and Mozilla-Safari compatible. I personally don't believe the whole iTunes 24-hour $3.99 rental program. I would never pay that when you have Netflix offering almost the same service for an hour per dollar (in your plan) on top of their main mail-rental business, and now considering it to go unlimited. Apple will likely have a time-limit of something closer to a month, with the more important limits being on download quantity. Maybe I'm wrong, but they've gotta throw something in there that's totally different or it wouldn't be Apple. They don't put out products or services unless they a) Invent/re-invent them or b) change something key in they way it works.
This really no different than PPV from cable or satellite. Expensive and lasts 24 hours. The only advantage is you can put it on your iPod. That's cool if you travel a lot I guess. But movies shouldn't be watched on a tiny screen like that. David Lynch explains it best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKiIroiCvZ0
"This really no different than PPV from cable or satellite. Expensive and lasts 24 hours"
That's exactly my point. It's no different. That's not something Apple does. They ALWAYS make it different.
A-men re: Netflix Watch Now Mac support. I know it was going to be implemented with a new technology that works similar to Flash but competes with it), but so far, nothing. I would use it in a heartbeat if it worked on the Mac. If Apple comes out with something similar to what Netflix is offering now, I may partially jump ship and reduce my Netflix rental plan to the lowest option to cover renting movies on my Mac through iTunes.
This is actually an excellent service. I wish the selection is better, but that has more to do with movie studio. Playback quality + ease of use is close to a regular DVD (way better than iTunes, Unbox, Movielinks).
I hope they'd hurry up on the Firefox support also. At the moment, it's IE only.
Do we know if Netflix pays out to the studios for each online viewing? Or even if they pay reoccuringly to be able to host and stream the movies?
If Apple's deal with the studios pays out a percentage per rental I'm sure they'll have no problem supplying iTunes with almost all new releases. Studios don't get cash from each physical Blockbuster or Netflix rental, they only get wholesale DVD price out of them. I'm sure they'd make more off of a percentage per iTunes rental (eventually, as people get more accustomed to online downloading).
They want to head off Cupertino? Try pushing some Mac-luvving out the door. That would do it for me.
And make it compatible with the Xbox 360 while you're at it, Netflix guys. Thanks!
I second that, I see no issues with being able to download them on xbox other than xbl already allows rental. It would really fit in with microsofts goal of making the xbox a central part of your living room.
If I could use it in Firefox and Linux, I'd consider using it, but as it is, I would rather just rent the movie and get it in full quality. I think even if it did work in Firefox, I would use it only to preview a movie to see if it's worth a rent.
Taken from http://blog.netflix.com/2007/08/instant-watching-on-mac-firefox-and.html
"
A key issue for delivering movies online is that the studios require use of DRM (Digital Rights Management) to protect titles. And that's our holdup for the Mac - there's not yet a studio-sanctioned, publicly-available Mac DRM solution (Apple doesn't license theirs). I can promise you that, when an approved solution becomes available for the Mac, we'll be there. I'll also say that Silverlight 1.1 looks like a promising candidate - but that its DRM isn't likely to be fully available until 2008.
"
That's just marketing-speak to keep the Mac users pacified. If Netflix and the studios wanted it on the Mac, it would be on the Mac. And there's not one thing Apple could do about it.
Netflix is a rental company, not a software company. Where, pray tell, are they going to come up with this new streaming DRM system? It took an organisation the size of the BBC long enough...
@yoshi
What does Netflix gain by not having it on the Mac? Nothing. They gain nothing, yet lose potential customers. Think about it. There's no anti-Mac conspiracy going on. Netflix cannot do it yet. Period.
What the good poeple are saying is true. There is no viable option for them to put there service on the Mac. If Apple chose to license FairPlay, then there would be. Silverlight is the first possible alternative (developed by Mircosoft ironically). Hopefully that will happen soon.
Yes yoshi, I'm sure netflix wants their Mac customers to leave them and use iTunes.
Oh wait, no, they have every incentive to have it work on a Mac, there is no vast conspiracy against you, you are not a Mac martyr.
And seriously, anybody who has an x86 Mac should have XP installed on it anyways for the bazillion little apps out there that are windows only, and for old school gaming, lol.
Wow, take a chill pill guys.
I didn't say anything about some Vast Netflix Conspiracy, did I? I said that if Netflix and the studios wanted that content on the Mac, then it would be on the Mac. I did not speculate on the reason at all, just the fact that if they wanted it done, it would be done. It's that simple.
There are no technological reasons why they cannot do this. None. Zero. Zip. There is nothing that Apple is doing to prevent them from doing this. Nothing. While Apple may not be HELPING them do it, Apple is not PREVENTING them from doing it.
So, since the Netflix service is not available for the Mac, Netflix must not want their service on the Mac. Or, more precisely, they must not want their service on the Mac enough so that they will do what it takes to get it on the Mac. Which just means that they were not willing to either do it themselves or hire someone else to do it. Which, I am sure, just boils down to the cost/benefit analysis of whether it was worth it. They decided that the cost was not worth the benefit.
So, if Apple comes out with anything approaching a reasonable rental plan (and what has been reported so far is far from reasonable), Netflix may lose a few Mac customers. There is still a benefit to receiving the physical DVD, so I doubt they'll be hurt too badly by whatever Apple announces. Netflix took a gamble and they will probably come out ahead overall. I probably would have made the same cost/benefit decision to not go out of my way to bring the content to the Mac. But it WAS Netflix's decision.
@Yoshi - You are so naive. Have you ever worked in business? Its never that simple. Greed, Legalalities, Egos, Strategic Positioning, etc...
The real news is where this could go when combined with the previous Netflix announcement of having a set top box that gets these (now unlimited) movies onto your TV:
http://www.techconsumer.com/2008/01/13/netflix-preemptively-takes-on-apple-unlimited-online-movies/
If they do that, I will cancel my BlockBuster online plan, and switch.
Thats about the only thing keeping me. (I enjoy Blockbuster games at $5, but unlimited movies sounds better)
I checked my plan just now and it's a done deal. Time to phone the Blockbuster CSRs! :)
Heck Yes!
It kinda sounded like a done deal when i read about it on my phone later in the night. Verizon's writer phrased it like it would come in effect at Midnight Monday (and it did).
I may hold on for a week or so till I get my computer hooked up to a new TV, but Im psyched now!
Now, I need to find a nice one month trial. Two weeks is cool, but bigger is better!
I'm considering hooking up and old PC just to take advantage of this because I can't use it on my MAC. Lame.
I have my Mac Mini hooked up to my TV and use the Netflix online viewing via Parallels. Works alright but it would be a hell of a lot better using it natively on the Mac. Otherwise not too shabby, but it really could use a larger video selection.
This is awesome. I've been a Netflix subscriber for about 2 years now; but I haven't watched their online movies because the restrictions are kinda stupid. Good move on their part to relax those restrictions.
This makes no sense. You?: "I restricted my viewing from (probably) 17 hours a week to zero hours per week because I don't like the 17 hour restriction."
Glad I could irritate you. My Monday is complete.
Agree w/ Aaron. You didn't even try it out b/c you didn't like the term? Huh?
For HD HTPC users that have Netflix and use the "Watch Now" feature, how good is the quality? I looked on Netflix.com and there is nothing that talks about resolution or quality. I am guessing you are not getting 720P even on the TV HD material.
The quality depends on your actual broadband speed. The system does a quick speed test right before you start watching the movie and will degrade the picture quality mid-movie if your speed slows.
With that said, my opinion (since I haven't run any tests) is that at its highest quality it is displaying a 480p signal with compression that is slightly noticeable. Of course your computer upscales that if necessary and does a decent job of it.
But overall picture quality on a 1080p display is not quite as good as an upscaled DVD.
Also my opinion on their quality scaling system is that at lower qualities, the picture is not downscaled per se, just further compressed (think JPG compression at low qualities displaying some moire effect and artifacts).
There are 3 qualities based on how fast your internet connection is. If you have a cable modem then you get the highest. If you have cheap DSL then it's the lowest.
The high quality is very good for the vast majority of movies. Not quite DVD quality, but very close. It's much better than standard-definition digital cable or satellite. There are a handful of titles where it seems the studio did not provide them with a quality source master. "Last of the Mohicans" for example looks like it was encoded from an old VHS tape (it probably was).
I've been a longtime Netflix subscriber and I love the "Watch Now" feature. I just finished watching season 1 of "30 Rock" via the Watch Now service.
Picture quality is absolutely superb.
I just wish they could get some new releases, as most of the videos (with the exception of the TV shows) are at least a few years old. However, just like the OS X issue, it most likely lies with the studios and there is little Netflix can do about it.
I watch online with a Mac, just fire up IE on VMWare and I'm there. Works great :)
I really wish the PS3 web browser would support Netflix's watch it now. I'm not one to watch very many movies on my 22" computer screen when I have a 40" Samsung LCD about 10 feet away from it.
i'd prefer they drop the 'cant stream outside of the united states' rule...being stationed oversea's means i cant use that function. it kinda sucks paying for service, but not being able to fully use it.
and yes, im aware of using proxy servers, i just have not tried yet.
Everyone, stop it with the wish lists for Netflix movies on Firefox or your Macs. That may come eventually, but the reason Netflix is doing this is to get us watching movies on our TVs, not computer screens. I know there is a group out there with HTPCs, but I doubt that will ever be the majority. Consumers want machines and set top boxes in their living rooms that DON'T resemble PCs, even if they have a computer inside. That's why Apple came out with an Apple TV, and that is why Netflix wants to inside your living room by any means known to man. Just wait and see...
I don't want another box connected to my tv. Can't they just have compatibility with a PS3, Wii, Xbox browser instead?
Nobody wants extra boxes KC, but this is just the beginning. I'm sure Netflix would like their script running on PS3s and Xbox 360s and cable boxes nationwide, but will Sony, Microsoft and cable let them do it when they have rentals and video on demand? Why let a third party come in and take their money?
Hey, if the script can run on a modded legacy Xbox, then I'd be all set!
I do like Netflix but they need to include more content and to create a Media Center addon since I use Media Center as my DVR and would like the ability to use my remote to pause or fast forward etc...
Well that's nice of them...now give Linux users the ability to actually use this service...especially later down the road when you start charging more because of a service we can't even use.
You're a Linux user, so I'm guessing you're pretty smart. So why is it a smart person doesn't get it. There is no DRM for Linux. How on earth is a service like this supposed to work on an OS with no DRM?
Linux does have DRM...or at least they *were* working on it....maybe that's what GPLv3 killed...well they are saying that the Silverlight port might give netflix support...we'll see
Linux does have DRM, though it may not be approved and hasn't found enough of a market to take off. The OGG folks came up with one such.
GPLv3 has nothing to do with the existence (or lack of) of Linux DRM. Proprietary, non-free software works just great on Linux. If Microsoft or Apple wanted to port their DRM to Linux they could. I have no problem using Microsoft DRM on my Linux box provided I can get my fair use out of it. For a download-and-watch on demand service, that's pretty easy to do; I don't expect it to be portable because having it right when I want it is the real service they are providing. What I *do* mind is having to run Microsoft Windows.
If I am required to use Windows to use Netflix I will drop my account and look for other reasonable sources.
well, I figure right now the watch on demand is a free service more or less...so what I *am* paying for is the movies coming to me...when the price goes up because of this, then it's time to look at other options
All this talk of DRM is crap. It's about time these companies grew some balls and stood up to 'Hollywood'. All this talk of needing DRM to protect streaming content...why would it need protecting? If people really want this stuff for free or to keep copies they will either use peer-to-peer sites or just copy the DVDs and get much better quality copies. It's about time these companies stopped bending over and taking it up the ass from hollywood at the expense of their customers!
END RANT!
I'm not sure the CD paradigm works with movie rentals. You've never really been able to "rent" music like that. If I can buy a CD for $15.00 and rip it to my PMP (and by extension have the disc as a backup) or I can buy a CD digitally for $15.00 with DRM (and no hard backup), the choice is clear on which is superior. Same for buying movies online--I'm better off buying them on disc and ripping them to my hard drive.
But what if I want to rent? The business model is I get it for a short period of time, at a highly discounted rate, and then must return it. I don't own it. I can see how DRM is bad for digital movies I purchase at full market price. What I want is the rental model for movies I don't want to own specifically for that highly discounted price. The DRM is essential to get the discount and it's a fair trade.
@Shawn:
But my point still stands. You can go to the DVD rental store, rent your highly discounted rate DVD and take a copy before returning the DVD. Even with the older Netflix model, they send you a DVD which some people may copy before returning. The point is, pretending DRM stops this sort of activity is nonsense. All DRM does is treat law abiding citizens as criminals because anyone who is intent on copying it will do despite the DRM.
This is cool but between an xbox 360, ps3 & a tivo HD, I've got enough devices connected to my HDTV to go out and buy another to use netflix. Put it on tivo, netflix, and I'll subscribe. I wont drop blockbuster but I'll subscribe to netflix.
We'll never see it on the 360 or the ps3 unless both consoles are hacked to run homebrew &/or linux (properly... not gimped by a hypervisor). And the linux thing... netflix still needs to support that OS.
Bahh Thats what they said about DIVX on the X360 as well :) I think the 360 would be the easiest to port it to, and with the recent blu-ray victory, I think MSFT better look at value-added options for the 360.
@vw- but this directly competes with xbox live. Thats why I dont think you'll ever see this on the 360. MS already has a video download service in place. They could partner with Netflix to allow subscribers to download off xbox live instead of netflix's service (which would be a different way of achieving the same thing)....
hmm... I really like that idea.
Reed sits on the board of Microsoft. Apple will announce it's own rental program this week.
pretty simple.
As long as Netflix eventually gives a good implementation on the Mac, I'll be happy. I watched a movie of theirs this weekend, and a movie on openhulu; openhulu's video was low res, would cut out, and was jerky as hell, while Netflix played like a regular movie (a bit lower res, more like standard def than the HD we now expect, but still better than openhulu). I would rather they got it right, which they seem to have done thus far, rather than release something right away.
This breaks FairPlay4wm since it requires the latest Windows Media player. Too bad I won't be using this.
alright, i don't really care about the apple/linux/ps3/wii browser/drm limitations.
I think the wierd part of the whole thing is the available content on watch instantly, aside from like 2 or 3 good titles in each catagory (except independents, and documentaries, which are mostly independent) all the rest of the movies are bargain basement chaff that you see on drug store racks for .99 a dvd. and some content is there, and then dissappears quickly. for example, i watched the entire first season of ghost in the shell stand alone complex via watch it instantly. a week later, it was gone from the choices. can't get it anymore.
i'm sure it's some licensing issue more than a "well it takes a long time to convert their whole catalog" type thing. anyways, since i don't like a whole lot of 80's b movie cheese, i find that the service isn't allthat compelling (except when you find a title you do want to watch it's awesome, it's on demand, good picture and sound quality for streamed over the internet, and it's "free" on top of the delivery service) i just wish they had their whole catalog of movies up.
feel free to punch holes in my eval so that i can use the info to fuigure out how to use their service better.