Again I don't trust American made traditional cars. Why should I trust one that is being fast tracked out of the R&D department at mach 2? Yes I know a huge chunk of the company is involved in this car and frankly if this fails Chevy is pretty much screwed unless the gov drops more money to bail them out. But frankly that isn't enough. I want to see 3 years, and 50,000 miles worth of data on this car proving that its solid before I go anywhere near American made again. Simply put I've been burned too often in the past. The car could be the sexiest thing on the planet. It could get 500mpg. It could be a geeks wet dream. And it could make women fling themselves towards the car. It means absolutely dick to me if its not reliable.
GM's automotive life and cred is being based on this car. There are literally thousands of people working on it daily to ensure its a solid launch. Yes its being moved quickly but there are two things to produce quicker results. 1. skimp on the quality or 2. Load it up with the best of the best, give it everything you have, set the budget high to higher ourside consultants....
You generalize by saying you don't trust American cars but several American brands are in the top ten in long term reliability and this is nothing new. Buick shared the number one slot last year with Lexus and even after sliding this year Buick is still in the sixth position. Also there are several foreign brands which rank below average in reliability including Scion with 243 problems per 100 vehicles, below Chevrolet. So much for Toyota perfection.
I completely agree. If Chevy or any other American company is serious about competing in ANY car segment, not just this electric/hybrid, etc. one, they need to start making enormous quality increases. Yes, cars like the Malibu are better than they used to be, but still miles behind the Accord, Sonata or other foreign car. Plus, by buying Japanese or Korean, you're supporting the American workforce more than buying a Chevy or Dodge.
I just want to follow up my comment briefly by saying that I agree that Toyota has slipped severely recently. I no longer recommend them, but companies like Honda, Hyundai, and Subaru make some of the best, most reliable, highest quality cars. Sit in a Malibu or Avenger, and then sit in an Accord or Sonata, and just by materials and fit and finish alone, you'll see my point.
Companies like Hyundai are building more plants in America while companies like Chevy are closing them down and laying off workers (even execs) in favor of cheap labor from Mexico or China. Yes, not all Chevys are made in other countries, and yes, not all foreign cars are made in America, but the quotient is quickly going to the foreign manufacturers making the most in America. Also, just because a Chevy is assembled in America doesn't mean the rest of the car was made in America. If you look at the fine print, they always say "Assembled in America of globally sourced parts". And yes, the same applies to Japanese brands, but like I said before, they're making more plants and more of an effort to employ American workers than the domestic companies.
It's not really a "new" car design. The drivetrain may be new, but the car itself is just a delta-platform (Chevy Colbalt, Saturn Astra) with some new body-panels.
Honestly, I want this car to succeed, because I believe we need plug-in hybrid technology, but, knowing GM and what happened with the whole EV-1 thing, I'm not entirely confident that it will succeed.
All companies use globally sourced parts. All of them. And in order for a car to be considered "domestic" in the US it must maintain a minimum of 75% domestic content. A Chevrolet HHR is made in Mexico but a Chevrolet Cobalt is made in Ohio. Many Hondas and Toyotas are made in the US but the Prius is made in Japan. If you care about supporting US made goods you have to check case by case. See if that Honda made in Ohio has enough content to be considered domestic. I bet it doesn't.
I understand that, and I said that all companies use globally sourced parts in one of my posts, but that still doesn't change the fact that these cars being made by domestic companies are slapped together without a care for the final product. I read an article on CNN a while ago, showing a behind the scenes look from an employee who had worked at a foreign car plant and a domestic one (names weren't given). He explained how the quality checks at the domestic plants were few and far between, and only checked at the end of the manufacturing of the item, however in the foreign one, they did checks at every little step in between. Also, back to the original idea, when the Aveo came out, Chevy ads trumpeted how it was an "American Revolution", just like the rest of their cars. How is a car an American Revolution, when it was designed and built in Korea by a Korean company (Daewoo)? And still, Chevy (and others) is closing American plants while foreign companies are making an effort to build more. Subaru has been building cars in Indiana for a long time, and they're excellent, so this is not a problem with the American workforce; the blame lies with the company. As far as I'm concerned, the only domestic company who's actually trying and building the best American cars is Ford. Their European models are just as good as Japanese and other brands, and they're slowly bringing them in. To that, good job Ford.
There are plenty of American made vehicles which rank among the top right with and sometimes surpassing Toyota and Honda. Yes I know that Pontiac, Dodge, Chevrolet and many other American brands are below average, but so are Nissan, Subaru, Scion and many other Japanese and European brands. People need to stop generalizing with these ideas which have no basis in fact.
" He explained how the quality checks at the domestic plants were few and far between, and only checked at the end of the manufacturing of the item, however in the foreign one, they did checks at every little step in between."
And this is also not true. I know because I work in an American plant and I know how hard those people work and I know how often they do quality checks. It's done at all steps of the production process.
Let's just agree to disagree. We each have our own opinions about this whole thing, and let's just leave it at that. All I will say, in conclusion, is that I have based my opinions on my personal experience, and what I have seen. But, you and everyone else are certainly entitled to their opinion.
I'm in complete agreement. GM has a LOT to make up for. They've been warned time and again, and they've promised time and again, and disappointed time and again. In the 2007 Consumer Report year end listed 15 of the 22 worst cars were made by GM (Ford, it should be noted, did comparatively well, scoring a few cars in the 22 Best Cars list (in terms of consumer satisfaction) - a big turn around). For years the only American cars that did well were those cars with Japanese or Korean drive trains. Pictures of dinosaurs in suits posing over a conservatively styled hybrid they rushed out the door years after the Japanese had them on the market - well, it doesn't fill me with confidence.
I forgot my points - I think we can expect similar quality to the Chevy Cobalt since the Volt is essentially a Cobalt with new sheetmetal and a new engine.
Let's just agree to disagree. We each have our own opinions about this whole thing, and let's just leave it at that. All I will say, in conclusion, is that I have based my opinions on my personal experience, and what I have seen. But, you and everyone else are certainly entitled to their opinion."
I agree in part. If you want to say Chevys are unreliable you can back it up with the ratings. But you also have to admit that Scion is unreliable because Scion ranks below Chevrolet. If you want to say that American cars are unreliable, you are wrong because not all of them are. If you want to say American cars are ugly, yes now you are talking about opinion. I happen to think the ugliest car on the road is the Japanese made Prius.
Don't confuse our opposing opinions with the facts.
I don't like Toyota or Scion, and agree that they are cheaply made and can be unreliable, and I'll agree the Prius is ugly and pointless. We both have opposing facts/opinions and there really isn't a right or wrong answer. There will always be this division, and I'm fine with that.
But, there are also studies by companies like Consumer Reports and other companies that support what I say. Like I said before, there's no point in going on about this, as it will continue to go back and forth forever. There's no right or wrong answer, and that's it.
What's wrong with American cars? American quality is among the best in the world (excepting Chrysler, but they had Daimler messing them up for a long time), and Ford out-ranks Toyota. This has been the case for some time now, and it is only getting better. To bash on American cars over quality shows you don't know what you're talking about.
To those touting JD power rankings etc for car reliability. I was wondering, do those rankings take into account the demographics of the people driving those cars? Buicks, Linconls, etc are probably driven more by blue hairs and significantly more conservative people who are going to drive their cars much slower and less recklessly than someone who buys a Scion. The average Scion buyer is probably under 25 and dogs the crap out of it. And Toyota may have taken a hit recently in the rankings, but they have also sold significantly more cars than any of the American manufacturers, so maybe it is a question of more cars total means more issues/recalls? I would like to see it percentage based. Or maybe it is already, I have to get ready for work so I don't have time to do the research.
"J @ Sep 8th 2008 5:14PM What's wrong with American cars? American quality is among the best in the world (excepting Chrysler, but they had Daimler messing them up for a long time), and Ford out-ranks Toyota. This has been the case for some time now, and it is only getting better. To bash on American cars over quality shows you don't know what you're talking about."
First, thanks for showing some support for American domestic autos. But check JD Power ratings. Ford brand does not out rank Toyota. Mercury (a Ford Corporation brand) and Cadillac (a General Motors brand) out rank Toyota this year in the long term dependability study. Last year Buick (another General Motors brand), Cadillac and Mercury all out ranked Toyota. But Lexus (a Toyota corporation brand) has a firm grip on the first place rank which it shared with Buick last year. Lexus made an amazing improvement from 145 problems per 100 vehicles to an incredibly low 120. Buick dropped from 145 problems per 100 vehicles to 163 which is still very good. At the same time, Scion which is anther Toyota brand ranked below average and this year took a massive slide to the 28th position well below average and among the worst quality as a brand. It looks to me as though Toyota corporation is making many of the same mistakes as General Motors by concentrating their quality efforts on their premium brands while neglecting their entry level brands. That is the big thing that both Ford and General Motors need to change. Chrysler seems to need serious work across the board. An interesting note: Honda as a brand slid from fifth position last year to ninth this year. Am I saying that Honda's quality is bad? Absolutely not. The quality of automobiles as an entire industry is excellent compared to 20+ years ago. I would not be afraid of even low ranked Chrysler if they had the product I really wanted.
Let's promote American vehicles but let's also keep the data factual.
"Dave @ Sep 8th 2008 6:41PM To those touting JD power rankings etc for car reliability. I was wondering, do those rankings take into account the demographics of the people driving those cars? Buicks, Linconls, etc are probably driven more by blue hairs and significantly more conservative people who are going to drive their cars much slower and less recklessly than someone who buys a Scion. The average Scion buyer is probably under 25 and dogs the crap out of it. And Toyota may have taken a hit recently in the rankings, but they have also sold significantly more cars than any of the American manufacturers, so maybe it is a question of more cars total means more issues/recalls? I would like to see it percentage based. Or maybe it is already, I have to get ready for work so I don't have time to do the research."
Then you have to apply the same logic to Lexus and Chevrolet. Young people buy cheap cars. Older people buy more expensive cars. Another thing, Toyota has not sold significantly more cars than General Motors. Check the sales numbers.
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Again I don't trust American made traditional cars. Why should I trust one that is being fast tracked out of the R&D department at mach 2? Yes I know a huge chunk of the company is involved in this car and frankly if this fails Chevy is pretty much screwed unless the gov drops more money to bail them out. But frankly that isn't enough. I want to see 3 years, and 50,000 miles worth of data on this car proving that its solid before I go anywhere near American made again. Simply put I've been burned too often in the past.
The car could be the sexiest thing on the planet. It could get 500mpg. It could be a geeks wet dream. And it could make women fling themselves towards the car. It means absolutely dick to me if its not reliable.
GM's automotive life and cred is being based on this car. There are literally thousands of people working on it daily to ensure its a solid launch. Yes its being moved quickly but there are two things to produce quicker results. 1. skimp on the quality or 2. Load it up with the best of the best, give it everything you have, set the budget high to higher ourside consultants....
Give it a chance
Traditional cars? In what way is this car traditional? If you don't want it, fine. But nobody cares about your car troubles.
Cool...that's one less spot on the waiting list for me.
You generalize by saying you don't trust American cars but several American brands are in the top ten in long term reliability and this is nothing new. Buick shared the number one slot last year with Lexus and even after sliding this year Buick is still in the sixth position. Also there are several foreign brands which rank below average in reliability including Scion with 243 problems per 100 vehicles, below Chevrolet. So much for Toyota perfection.
I completely agree. If Chevy or any other American company is serious about competing in ANY car segment, not just this electric/hybrid, etc. one, they need to start making enormous quality increases. Yes, cars like the Malibu are better than they used to be, but still miles behind the Accord, Sonata or other foreign car. Plus, by buying Japanese or Korean, you're supporting the American workforce more than buying a Chevy or Dodge.
" Plus, by buying Japanese or Korean, you're supporting the American workforce more than buying a Chevy or Dodge."
Utter bullshit.
I just want to follow up my comment briefly by saying that I agree that Toyota has slipped severely recently. I no longer recommend them, but companies like Honda, Hyundai, and Subaru make some of the best, most reliable, highest quality cars. Sit in a Malibu or Avenger, and then sit in an Accord or Sonata, and just by materials and fit and finish alone, you'll see my point.
Honda also slipped this year, but still highly ranked yet topped by Mercury, Cadillac, Buick and Lincoln.
@happy_penguin
Companies like Hyundai are building more plants in America while companies like Chevy are closing them down and laying off workers (even execs) in favor of cheap labor from Mexico or China. Yes, not all Chevys are made in other countries, and yes, not all foreign cars are made in America, but the quotient is quickly going to the foreign manufacturers making the most in America. Also, just because a Chevy is assembled in America doesn't mean the rest of the car was made in America. If you look at the fine print, they always say "Assembled in America of globally sourced parts". And yes, the same applies to Japanese brands, but like I said before, they're making more plants and more of an effort to employ American workers than the domestic companies.
It's not really a "new" car design. The drivetrain may be new, but the car itself is just a delta-platform (Chevy Colbalt, Saturn Astra) with some new body-panels.
Honestly, I want this car to succeed, because I believe we need plug-in hybrid technology, but, knowing GM and what happened with the whole EV-1 thing, I'm not entirely confident that it will succeed.
Ryan:
All companies use globally sourced parts. All of them. And in order for a car to be considered "domestic" in the US it must maintain a minimum of 75% domestic content. A Chevrolet HHR is made in Mexico but a Chevrolet Cobalt is made in Ohio. Many Hondas and Toyotas are made in the US but the Prius is made in Japan. If you care about supporting US made goods you have to check case by case. See if that Honda made in Ohio has enough content to be considered domestic. I bet it doesn't.
happy_penguin:
I understand that, and I said that all companies use globally sourced parts in one of my posts, but that still doesn't change the fact that these cars being made by domestic companies are slapped together without a care for the final product. I read an article on CNN a while ago, showing a behind the scenes look from an employee who had worked at a foreign car plant and a domestic one (names weren't given). He explained how the quality checks at the domestic plants were few and far between, and only checked at the end of the manufacturing of the item, however in the foreign one, they did checks at every little step in between. Also, back to the original idea, when the Aveo came out, Chevy ads trumpeted how it was an "American Revolution", just like the rest of their cars. How is a car an American Revolution, when it was designed and built in Korea by a Korean company (Daewoo)? And still, Chevy (and others) is closing American plants while foreign companies are making an effort to build more. Subaru has been building cars in Indiana for a long time, and they're excellent, so this is not a problem with the American workforce; the blame lies with the company. As far as I'm concerned, the only domestic company who's actually trying and building the best American cars is Ford. Their European models are just as good as Japanese and other brands, and they're slowly bringing them in. To that, good job Ford.
And back to the misconceptions....
Ryan, look here:
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2007130
And look here:
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2008115
There are plenty of American made vehicles which rank among the top right with and sometimes surpassing Toyota and Honda. Yes I know that Pontiac, Dodge, Chevrolet and many other American brands are below average, but so are Nissan, Subaru, Scion and many other Japanese and European brands. People need to stop generalizing with these ideas which have no basis in fact.
" He explained how the quality checks at the domestic plants were few and far between, and only checked at the end of the manufacturing of the item, however in the foreign one, they did checks at every little step in between."
And this is also not true. I know because I work in an American plant and I know how hard those people work and I know how often they do quality checks. It's done at all steps of the production process.
happy_penguin:
Let's just agree to disagree. We each have our own opinions about this whole thing, and let's just leave it at that. All I will say, in conclusion, is that I have based my opinions on my personal experience, and what I have seen. But, you and everyone else are certainly entitled to their opinion.
I'm in complete agreement. GM has a LOT to make up for. They've been warned time and again, and they've promised time and again, and disappointed time and again. In the 2007 Consumer Report year end listed 15 of the 22 worst cars were made by GM (Ford, it should be noted, did comparatively well, scoring a few cars in the 22 Best Cars list (in terms of consumer satisfaction) - a big turn around). For years the only American cars that did well were those cars with Japanese or Korean drive trains. Pictures of dinosaurs in suits posing over a conservatively styled hybrid they rushed out the door years after the Japanese had them on the market - well, it doesn't fill me with confidence.
I forgot my points - I think we can expect similar quality to the Chevy Cobalt since the Volt is essentially a Cobalt with new sheetmetal and a new engine.
"Ryan @ Sep 8th 2008 3:49PM
happy_penguin:
Let's just agree to disagree. We each have our own opinions about this whole thing, and let's just leave it at that. All I will say, in conclusion, is that I have based my opinions on my personal experience, and what I have seen. But, you and everyone else are certainly entitled to their opinion."
I agree in part. If you want to say Chevys are unreliable you can back it up with the ratings. But you also have to admit that Scion is unreliable because Scion ranks below Chevrolet. If you want to say that American cars are unreliable, you are wrong because not all of them are. If you want to say American cars are ugly, yes now you are talking about opinion. I happen to think the ugliest car on the road is the Japanese made Prius.
Don't confuse our opposing opinions with the facts.
happy_penguin:
I don't like Toyota or Scion, and agree that they are cheaply made and can be unreliable, and I'll agree the Prius is ugly and pointless. We both have opposing facts/opinions and there really isn't a right or wrong answer. There will always be this division, and I'm fine with that.
" We both have opposing facts/opinions and there really isn't a right or wrong answer."
But there are the JD Power Vehicle Dependability studies. Please check them as I posted above.
But, there are also studies by companies like Consumer Reports and other companies that support what I say. Like I said before, there's no point in going on about this, as it will continue to go back and forth forever. There's no right or wrong answer, and that's it.
What's wrong with American cars? American quality is among the best in the world (excepting Chrysler, but they had Daimler messing them up for a long time), and Ford out-ranks Toyota. This has been the case for some time now, and it is only getting better. To bash on American cars over quality shows you don't know what you're talking about.
you don't trust american cars?
i trust consumer reports.
stuff like the vw's have had horrible reliability recently
i dont like the grill. maybe its the mockup, or perhaps its more aerodynamic and is a false grill, i dunno whats going on there.
To those touting JD power rankings etc for car reliability. I was wondering, do those rankings take into account the demographics of the people driving those cars? Buicks, Linconls, etc are probably driven more by blue hairs and significantly more conservative people who are going to drive their cars much slower and less recklessly than someone who buys a Scion. The average Scion buyer is probably under 25 and dogs the crap out of it. And Toyota may have taken a hit recently in the rankings, but they have also sold significantly more cars than any of the American manufacturers, so maybe it is a question of more cars total means more issues/recalls? I would like to see it percentage based. Or maybe it is already, I have to get ready for work so I don't have time to do the research.
"J @ Sep 8th 2008 5:14PM
What's wrong with American cars? American quality is among the best in the world (excepting Chrysler, but they had Daimler messing them up for a long time), and Ford out-ranks Toyota. This has been the case for some time now, and it is only getting better. To bash on American cars over quality shows you don't know what you're talking about."
First, thanks for showing some support for American domestic autos. But check JD Power ratings. Ford brand does not out rank Toyota. Mercury (a Ford Corporation brand) and Cadillac (a General Motors brand) out rank Toyota this year in the long term dependability study. Last year Buick (another General Motors brand), Cadillac and Mercury all out ranked Toyota. But Lexus (a Toyota corporation brand) has a firm grip on the first place rank which it shared with Buick last year. Lexus made an amazing improvement from 145 problems per 100 vehicles to an incredibly low 120. Buick dropped from 145 problems per 100 vehicles to 163 which is still very good. At the same time, Scion which is anther Toyota brand ranked below average and this year took a massive slide to the 28th position well below average and among the worst quality as a brand. It looks to me as though Toyota corporation is making many of the same mistakes as General Motors by concentrating their quality efforts on their premium brands while neglecting their entry level brands. That is the big thing that both Ford and General Motors need to change. Chrysler seems to need serious work across the board. An interesting note: Honda as a brand slid from fifth position last year to ninth this year. Am I saying that Honda's quality is bad? Absolutely not. The quality of automobiles as an entire industry is excellent compared to 20+ years ago. I would not be afraid of even low ranked Chrysler if they had the product I really wanted.
Let's promote American vehicles but let's also keep the data factual.
"Dave @ Sep 8th 2008 6:41PM
To those touting JD power rankings etc for car reliability. I was wondering, do those rankings take into account the demographics of the people driving those cars? Buicks, Linconls, etc are probably driven more by blue hairs and significantly more conservative people who are going to drive their cars much slower and less recklessly than someone who buys a Scion. The average Scion buyer is probably under 25 and dogs the crap out of it. And Toyota may have taken a hit recently in the rankings, but they have also sold significantly more cars than any of the American manufacturers, so maybe it is a question of more cars total means more issues/recalls? I would like to see it percentage based. Or maybe it is already, I have to get ready for work so I don't have time to do the research."
Then you have to apply the same logic to Lexus and Chevrolet. Young people buy cheap cars. Older people buy more expensive cars. Another thing, Toyota has not sold significantly more cars than General Motors. Check the sales numbers.
Also, Toyota is far from perfect:
http://www.lemonlawclaims.com/toyota_avalon__problems_lemon.htm
Prius problems are numerous:
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_prius.html
And Toyota trucks are seriously defective:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=toyota+tundra+recall&btnG=Search