Alright, something's fishy here. When Apple announced that the
new MacBook Pro has two NVIDIA GeForce chips -- the 9400M and the 9600M GT -- the focus was on what that means for battery life. Absent any mention of Hybrid SLI, we assumed that was all, but PC Mag has posted some eyebrow-raising benchmarks comparing the new MacBook Pro to HP's Pavilion HDX16t, which also features a 9600M GT. While the MacBook Pro test model fell behind the Pavilion in most benchmarks due to its slower processor, its
Crysis framerate beat that of the Pavilion by 24.1 frames per second -- 41.9 over 17.3. That doesn't make a lot of sense, unless you look at benchmarks of a desktop with NVIDIA's similar GeForce 9300 chipset and a GeForce 8500 GT -- turns out
Crysis runs 12.63 frames per second faster (29.19 over 16.56) in Hybrid SLI than it does on the 8500 GT alone. Is the MacBook Pro running in SLI mode when
set for performance? We don't have confirmation of that, but we'll put it to the test in our
forthcoming review -- until then, feel free to grab a grain of salt while freaking out anyway.
Update: Sorry, folks -- NVIDIA's just
posted a support doc that says the MBP doesn't support Hybrid SLI in either OS X or Windows -- and when running Windows, it's locked into using the 9600M GT. We're not sure where that
Crysis boost is coming from -- GDDR3 vs GDDR2, perhaps -- but we'll dig deeper in our review. Stay tuned.
Read - PC Mag (MacBook Pro benchmarks)
Read - Hot Hardware (NVIDIA GeForce 9300 desktop motherboards benchmarks)
posted Oct 15th 2008 3:43PM
i have no idea what this means.
Hope this helps: The setup consists of an IGP as well as a GPU on MXM module. The IGP would assist the GPU to boost performance when the laptop is plugged to a power socket while the MXM module would be shut down when the laptop was unplugged from power socket to lower overall graphics power consumption.
To elaborate...its like the SLI set-up on desktops (two vid cars connected together to act as one) but its between an integrated and discrete chip like the Macbook Pro has.
It means that when doing basic computing tasks ie Surfing the web your Mac will use an on board low power graphics accelerator. When you need a little more grunt when playing a game or HD movie another more powerful card will help accelerate graphics, at the cost of battery life.
http://www.nvidia.com/object/hybrid_sli.html
Thanks for explaining in Joe language, Zach! :D
it does take a reboot to switch the graphics cards though.
i.e. going from less powerful to powerful requires shutting down
Why low ranked?
http://www.engadget.com/2008/10/14/macbook-pro-requires-logout-to-switch-graphics-modes/
because a logout and a reboot are vastly different, especially for macs. The computers running XP at my work actually stop to tell you that it's playing the logout sound, along with saving the registry, etc., whereas with OS X, assuming you don't have any hanging programs or unsaved work, logging out is pretty quick.
Wait... NO WAY does Apple cram a MXM Type-IV into the Macbook Pro. SHOW ME SHOW ME SHOW ME SHOW ME.
im a little ignorant to the SLI but i thought they had to be the exact same card.
Hybrid SLI uses the integrated GPU along with a dedicated GPU to get better performance than either chip can achieve alone. So if true in this case, the integrated 9300 chipset is giving an extra graphics boost to the 9600M GT. I don't claim to be an expert, but I hope this helps.
Considering that it requires a logout-login to merely switch GPUs, I heartily doubt that Nvidia/OSX has a working SLI implementation.
The allegation here is that the Windows implementation has Hybrid SLI. That, I would believe.
the curious thing is that nvidia's info page says the 9600M GT does not have geforce boost (which is using both gpus at the same time) because the integrated graphics wouldn't make enough difference in performance. i am so confused. unfortunately, apple's website is no help, they put everything in very simple terms (i.e. they don't even list the model of the CPU; there is a big difference between the T9400 and P9500, both of which run at 2.53 GHz).
also, since you only need a logout to switch between the two, maybe that could be fixed by software? the whole benefit of hybrid power was that it switched on the fly without closing anything.
The pcmag link says that its running in boot camp. Since windows was not design for this type of machine, is there any mention of how it is running SLI? Does it automatically set it self for that in windows or can it be switched?
This is looking more and more like my next computer...
I like how this nvidia FAQ answers it all: http://nvidia.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/nvidia.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=2243
" Question
Does the Apple Macbook Pro (Late 2008) support NVIDIA's Hybrid SLI® technology?
Answer
No. NVIDIA Hybrid SLI technology for notebook computers allows a motherboard GPU and a discrete GPU to work together for extreme multi-GPU SLI performance when needed (called GeForce Boost mode), or use just a single GPU for low power consumption and long battery life (called Hybrid Power mode).
Apple's Macbook Pro (Late 2008) does feature both the NVIDIA® GeForce®9400M motherboard GPU for everyday computing and the NVIDIA® GeForce® 9600M GT discrete GPU for high graphics performance. You can switch between the Geforce 9400M motherboard GPU (called energy saver mode) and the Geforce 9600M GT discrete GPU (called performance mode), but you cannot use both GPU's at once in this implementation.
Apple's hybrid graphics technology is supported under the MacOS X operating system version 10.5.6 and higher only. When running Microsoft's Windows XP™ or Microsoft's Windows Vista™ using Apple's Boot Camp, the system locks into performance mode which uses the Geforce 9600M GT discrete GPU for all graphics related tasks and can not be changed to use the Geforce 9400M motherboard GPU for low power mode."
Investigative reporting at its finest. Found with a google search.
I like how this nvidia FAQ answers it all: http://nvidia.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/nvidia.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=2243
" Question
Does the Apple Macbook Pro (Late 2008) support NVIDIA's Hybrid SLI® technology?
Answer
No. NVIDIA Hybrid SLI technology for notebook computers allows a motherboard GPU and a discrete GPU to work together for extreme multi-GPU SLI performance when needed (called GeForce Boost mode), or use just a single GPU for low power consumption and long battery life (called Hybrid Power mode).
Apple's Macbook Pro (Late 2008) does feature both the NVIDIA® GeForce®9400M motherboard GPU for everyday computing and the NVIDIA® GeForce® 9600M GT discrete GPU for high graphics performance. You can switch between the Geforce 9400M motherboard GPU (called energy saver mode) and the Geforce 9600M GT discrete GPU (called performance mode), but you cannot use both GPU's at once in this implementation.
Apple's hybrid graphics technology is supported under the MacOS X operating system version 10.5.6 and higher only. When running Microsoft's Windows XP™ or Microsoft's Windows Vista™ using Apple's Boot Camp, the system locks into performance mode which uses the Geforce 9600M GT discrete GPU for all graphics related tasks and can not be changed to use the Geforce 9400M motherboard GPU for low power mode."
Investigative reporting at its finest. Found with a google search.
@Ray
"Since windows was not design for this type of machine"
Other PCs actually aren't that different; if you think that an Apple computer and a 'PC' are different things, you are woefully incorrect.
I (and everyone who has ever installed Windows OS on a Mac) can vouch for it running just as good (if not better) as on any other PC (because it is one). The only difference between Apple computers and PCs is that Apple computers can run Mac OS X. Apart from that they are just PCs.
You can even choose to only install Windows on a Mac if you want to, and it will work just like a Sony, Dell, or HP laptop. If you want to run Windows on it, you shouldn't have any problems (at least not any more than usual, hehe).
@who?
i was referring to integrated + dedicated set up, but then i read somewhere else that a couple laptops already have it!
But thanx, its good to know that windows isnt bogged down by boot camp (or primary install if thats what you were saying, im not sure how that works). Also, i wonder how this trackpad will work in windows. I know there wont be any multitouch, but...
@Ray
The trackpad will work fine, but Microsoft doesn't support multitouch in their OS (maybe there's a program somewhere).
On the other hand, the trackpad itself is a button (or buttons, based on how you set up the preferences) and there is no reason it would work for right/left/middle/whatever you set it for clicking.
@who, "pcs" can also run OSX, though its a legal nightmare.
@ nerdtalker or anyone:
can the 2 cards be used individually simultaneously? could os 10.6 use one card for video and the other with opencl to, say, run live sound of multiple midi and sound processing programs at a gig for guitar, keys, bass and drums, with no latency?
That's great, but I could hire a team of actors to perform Crisis live in front of me for the price of this laptop :0)
I'm a Mac guy and I still found your statement hilarious!
LOL. I'm a Mac/PC/Linux person, man I wish I could afford a MacBook Pro! :)
@Aaron
You look just like Justin Long ?
Oh yeah well with 700 billion dollars I can hire people to play Financial Crisis in front of me....
Take That!
OR
I can give every single American a $2,000 MacBook Pro and on top of that give 1 Mcdonald's Apple pie to 47 million of those Americans who have no health insurance right now for all their troubles.
*Estimates based according to the CIA U.S population and amount of Health care uninsured government estimates.
this is super funny...
I am a university student but i'm still using PC~
I should be the only who "think different" :
http://9gag.com/read/entry/id/1373/Apple+-+Think+Different/
There's no way they managed to fit a hybrid of Rocky in there. You guys are idiots.
I can't picture myself running Crysis on a Mac
Nor can you picture yourself running it on an HP either
@7on
On an HP Blackbird 002, yeah I can.
I have Crysis running on my MacBook Pro.
Not that I hate Macs or PC's, but a Mac is not my choice for a gaming laptop.
i can run crysis on my hp dv5t.
@ garrenteed,
so u hate Mac.
No, I just would use a PC to game it up, and a Mac to do other things.
With the gloss on these new glass screens, you can picture yourself doing everything on a Mac....
Oooo, the gap between Mac and PC hardware seems to close more and more every release :)
Will be interesting to see if this is whats happening :)
Yeah, but Mac is still waaaay more expensive for the hardware spec you get.
What gap between PC and Mac Hardware? The imaginary one that cost $500 more?
What i meant is that Mac's have always been limited to what they contain, now they seem to be getting the same new tech as any PC. Never ever thought SLI tech would be in a Mac :)
Though i would say this seems to be priced close to that of PC laptops in this spec. DDR3, LED backlit, Nvidia 9600gt etc. :)
Yes dotAaron they have contained the same PC hardware as every other computer since the intel switch.
I'd really like to have a Pro for solid modeling and stuff like that that my current macbook X3100 just can't do. But I think the new one will. And maybe use the extra to rebuild my desktop. Ah decisions decisions.
Also it didn't mention if it was the 256 or 512 one. If it is running SLI I might just opt for the cheaper one. Since that should definitely get it done.
So before anyone asks: Yes, it does.
I find this very interesting and look forward to your complete analysis. It doesn't make sense, but i'm sure you'll figure it out. I can't believe I'm actually considering buying one of these. I'm a PC!
Phew. Here I was thinking I'd have to get my Wolfenstein on since it wouldn't play Doom.
And also - yes it will.
but! umm....eh....FIRST!!!!!
Strange, according to those benchmarks the old Macbook Pro with the 8600 beats the HP for gaming, and that has a 9600 and a slightly faster CPU
Strange indeed. ^ LAMME ME LA VERGA ^
PC version of crysis...
If this configuration is in the MacBook Pro (and x86 computer), then it'll be PC laptops soon too.
NVidia isn't stupid enough to only allow this hybrid technology to exist on a Mac when there is such a large PC market.
Also, wouldn't this pave the way to have SLI without necessarily having two cards? Couldn't the components all be slapped on one video card opening a slot in PC cases everywhere?
You're really behind on the times, and if you're a Mac user, then it's understandable.
PC users have had "SLI" on one card for eons nows dating back to the Voodoo2 days even in specialized cards such as the Quantum3D Obsidian X24 SLI and consumer level cards such as the RAGE Fury MAXX cards (ATI's version) a decade ago.
Most recently, you can buy Crossfire on a card in the form of the 4870X2, and NV cards just as recently as the 9800 GX2 (launched earlier in the year) also support Full SLI on one PCB, and their rumored, upcoming 206/212 chips (for the PC market) are expected to have some form of SLI on a single PCB intrinsic to them as well.
Steve mentioned in the Q&A after the presentation that this is new Nvidia hardware, and although they don't have exclusive rights to this chipset/GPU configuration, they are the first to bring it to market.
This doesn't say anything. Of course the hardware SUPPORTS the HybridSLI. The hardware isn't an issue, Mac OS X is the issue. Crysis was running on Windows Vista when they benchmarked it, obviously not on OS X. Vista, unlike OS X, supports HybridSLI.
Yeah, but most people serious about gaming on a Mac run windows to do so anyway...
Is there a reason why Crisis can't run on an Xbox 360? I'm also still waiting for S.T.A.L.K.E.R. to come out for the 360. I don't have a desktop PC anymore and have gotten too used to playing on a 42" HDTV to go back to a 22" LCD monitor.
Why not hook your computer up to the TV? I do it all the time...
@Jim
No mouse and keyboard, that's why. :¬)
But seriously, neither the 360 nor PS3 has the GPU power to handle those kinds of graphics.
Jim, dont ever expect crysis for Mac. As you know the PS3's gfx card is slightly better. The actual chip is the same as the 7800GTX. I have the 7900GTX (which is faster). I tried running crysis on max at 800x600 (just slightly more than non-HD TV res) and it only just ran without lag. Nuff said.
You're completely overlooking the part in the NVIDIA docs which say
"When running Microsoft's Windows XP™ or Microsoft's Windows Vista™ using Apple's Boot Camp, the system locks into performance mode which uses the Geforce 9600M GT discrete GPU for all graphics related tasks and can not be changed to use the Geforce 9400M motherboard GPU for low power mode."
This would be great materiel for a new Mac ad.
"Hi I'm a Mac and I run Crysis better than a PC."***
"Hi I'm a PC and I...we'll I got nothin now."
***according to a PCMag comparison so complicated you'll never understand
Ummm, no, there exists FULL SLI laptops by Voodoo PC and Alienware that would run circles around this Macbook in Crysis and in every other single game out there on the market.
It's also noteworthy that hybrid SLI is not supported by Mac OSX natively, and thus had to be run within Windows, using off-the-shelf PC components anyways.
Furthermore, take any desktop PC with Crossfire 4870X2s or Tri-SLI GTX 280's (custom made gaming PC that is) and pit it against any Mac, and the Mac will lose every single benchmark every single time.
Mac's are always a generation or 2 behind when it comes to gaming potential and performance because they are always an after thought.
There there now engadget, Thanks for switching to FPS from percentages, makes a little more sense now.
A better one;
PC "So Mac have you played any games recently?"
Mac "Yah I beat Crysis a couple days ago on my all new MBP!"
PC "This can't be true" *faint*
Case in point:
This would walk all over the MBP:
http://www.alienware.com/products/area-51-m17x-notebook.aspx?SysCode=PC-LT-AREA51M17X-GC&SubCode=SKU-DEFAULT
By offering the NVIDIA® GeForce® 9800M GT in a dual GPU SLI® configuration, the Area-51® m17x does not disappoint. With up to 1GB of dedicated memory, this DirectX® 10 capable gaming rig delivers images sure to capture the attention of professionals and enthusiasts alike.
For creative professionals and industrial designers, the Area-51 m17x offers the NVIDIA Quadro® FX 3600M GPU, engineered for superior image quality on CAD, DCC and other visualization applications.
And it looks way slicker to boot.
The above laptop would mop the floor with Apple's offering.
PC's will always, always, hold the performance crown.
@Hamidxa: I agree 100% (or 100FPS faster than the MBP) I was simply making a jab at apple's intense marketing campaign that capitalizes on the uninformed majority of consumers (and subsequently keeps them that way).
@ Hamidxa. Case in Point? that Alienware costs 4K. Of course it will. Find one around $2799 that will run circles around the MBP
Boarderwoot, in that case, well played! ;)
Luke, the point being, that Macs don't even offer you the above options featured in the Alienware, because if Ive said it once, Ive said it a thousand times, Macs are always, always, a generation or 2 or more behind compared to PC's.
You are aware that I could configure a Tri-SLI GTX 280 setup or Crossfire 4870X2 desktop system with cash to spare that would have any comparably priced Mac for lunch, right? Oh, and for that matter, you don't even have the option of running those cards or those configurations on any Mac. :)
I'm a Mac, and I'd like to thank Vista for showing off my full potential.
@ Luke
Gateway P-7811FX. Almost half the price. More than double the performance.
Ok maybe not double the performance but regardless it would destroy a MBP for 2800
This might help.
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/10/14/a_closer_look_at_apples_move_to_nvidia_chipsets_displayport.html
HMMMMMM
Might have to grab one of them soon it seems
Well obviously Apple wouldn't say that it supports Hybrid SLI if it only worked in Vista.
MacDailyNews is reporting that the switch from IGP to the dedicated GPU (or vice versa) requires a logout -- so it's either not running HybridSLI or OSX doesn't handle HybridSLI very well.
The Apple is probably running the GDDR3 version of the 9600M GT, whereas the HP is running the GDDR2 version.
A DDR3 9600M GT with T9400 will score around 5800 (3DMark05) at 1280x800. Seeing as theyve benched the Macbook Pro at 1024x768 and got 6400, that sounds normal.
That would definitely explain it.
There is no ddr2 9600gt
@Persian
We're talking about the M cards. There is definitely both a DDR2 9600M GT, ive seen reviews of both.
Also, '05 is a typo above, I meant 3DM'06
My mistake then. I'm a desktop kinda guy.
I bet Snow Leopard will support this if true.. Then we just need some DX10 support and vista is left with nothing.
Er, what? There's no DirectX support on Mac OS X, period. Ported games render in OpenGL on Mac OS X. That's because DirectX is a Microsoft technology that was specifically engineered for developers to write Windows games.
DirectX 10 is overrated though; I'd rather run DX9.0c or OpenGL under XP than DX10 under Vista.
Errgh. This is what's tearing me apart. I'm trying to decide, should I dump more money into a 9600 Pro or stay cheap and go for just a regular Macbook.
Probably just go cheap and save money to build a new PC in the future... but if what this news is saying is true, I'd probably want to stick with a sick Mac.
Why stop at the 9600, when thats yesterday's news, and why stop at some handicapped pseudo-SLI.
Go with an Alienware featuring 9800 GTs in true, full, SLI if you want true power and performance in laptop form.
Of course, you could always build a gaming PC (note: not Mac, Mac mobo's don't even handle the following configs) featuring Crossfired 4870 X2's or Tri-SLI GTX 280s and still have cash to spare versus spending that money on a MBP which is infinitely weaker by comparison.
Check out the clearance page of the Apple Store, and you can still buy the remaining supply of old Macbook Pro's starting at 1599 (or 1399 with edu discount). I would so love to get one of them for on the go video editing (I use FCP all the time), but the new ones with their glossy screen and lack of Firewire 400 bother me.
I'm almost wondering if they messed up that test. The 3DMark06 tests suggest a 30% gaming performance gain over the Penryn (4,1) MBP, but that one Crysis test suggests an 85% gain.
I want a 17 inch NOOOOW
17 inch of what?. *blush*
http://nvidia.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/nvidia.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=2243
does it strike anyone that engadget have to write an article on the smallest apple update, anything tiny! hehe there such apple fanboys (not like i didn't know already!)
They make virtually 0 games for the MAC and certainly not Crysis, what is the point of this for Photoshop?
Don't you know that you can run Vista and OS X on this laptop. You don't need to make Crysis for Mac if it already works on a Mac. Find a real point kid.
Guys, looks like Mac OS cant manage SLI...
http://nvidia.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/nvidia.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=2243
I'm on one of these Macbook Pro's right now :D
This is one of the best engadets comments sections I've read. I've learned alot. Kudos you guys.
I know that, then buy a PC if you want to play games on Vista so you do not pay double the price and get a usb stick to make it run OSX KID
Using both gpu's in hybrid sli at once won't work on a new macbook, or any other 9600gt laptop.
Only the 9500M G and lower gpus can run both the integrated and discrete at the same time for a boost in performance.
Check out NVIDIA's chart, scroll down http://www.nvidia.com/object/hybridsli_notebook.html
Anything above the 9500M G only supports the hybridpower gpu switching.
http://www.nvidia.com/object/product_geforce_9400m_g_us.html
The chipset does support it. Wonder how Apple is trying to "prevent it", ie via software or hardware?
What a shame. I actually considered jumping over to a MBP for its elegance and portability... as well as superior ability to run parallel or vm fusion on it. Reason being is that I'm ok with the MAC world to a certain level, but other than that I need my MS fix, because believe it or not, MS software runs better on Windows.
On top of that, I had hoped that the fairly advanced mobile graphics card would be usable between both operating systems for light gaming (Word in Conflict anyone?) during my all-too-mundane Discrete Structures course. A shame, but I don't see any reason that these limitations will be held back for too long if Apple deems a software fix is worthwhile... which is a whole nother story.