RED's 'big change' announcement is actually kind of big (updated)

RED's "big change" announcement is out. The good news: no more waiting. Unfortunately, that's about it -- still no DSMC configuration for the general consumer. The rest of the news is targeted at professional film makers which, really should be expected if only these lustful hearts could be contained. With Jannard's team recently overcoming some sensor and electronics limitations, the specs and prices for the Scarlet and EPIC systems have been juggled resulting in a new, stretched delivery schedule. Judging by reactions in the RED USER forums, the changes are welcome if only vaguely understood for a system that only exists on paper (outside of RED ONE) for the time being. Now go ahead and hit the read link for the specifics of what changed -- and with 1,048,576 possible configurations to this modular camera system, you'd better bring help.

Update: After reviewing the 1 million configs, we did find something noteworthy: the previously TBD price of the 2/3-inch 8x fixed zoom 3K Scarlet is now priced at $3,750 when it ships as a "complete kit" with brain and lens sometime in the Fall of 2009. It looks like it should also be compatible with lenses from Canon and Nikon via an optional interchangeable lens mount. As previously announced, the "brain" alone costs $2,500. That officially puts RED within fighting distance of the 1080p-capable Canon EOS 5D Mark II for the prosumer's dollar. Relevant components pictured after the break.

[Thanks, Ben]

[Ryan M @ Dec 3rd 2008 2:17AM]

So they basically just re-announced what they previously announced, just to say "The final production version of what we previously announced is going to be slightly better than what we actually announced."

[Taylor @ Dec 3rd 2008 3:06AM]

Perhaps this project will go the way that Steorn's Orbo did, or that dodgy $200 laptop that never existed...

[Sheynk @ Dec 3rd 2008 3:11AM]

@Taylor


yeah only Red One is an actual camera system that is out now...

[OutsideHollywood @ Dec 3rd 2008 9:08PM]

Actually, after digging through the release notes, I'm pretty sure that "fixed lens 2/3" camera will not be usable with Nikon and Canon lenes. I could be wrong, because things aren't so clear, but I'm fairly certain that "fixed" means permenantly attached to the brain, not a fixed focal length, since it is advertized as a zoom lens.

[andres @ Dec 3rd 2008 2:32AM]

judging from the picture, the upskirtmobile is only a few months away from production.

[Ayman @ Dec 3rd 2008 3:09AM]

thas a good judge of picture

but i cant judge from your avatar if that is a cow or dog..........OR is it a Dow or a Cog

[Romequez @ Dec 3rd 2008 6:55AM]

That's Clarus the Dogcow from Apple.

[aMac @ Dec 3rd 2008 11:28AM]

Clarus The Dog Cow appreciation thread!

[kb2zuz @ Dec 3rd 2008 4:56PM]

Moof!!!

[diggit @ Dec 3rd 2008 3:15AM]

As much as I love the RED concept of cameras and especially their DSMC, they need to put their money where their mouth is and finally start SELLING their products. Was bad enough when they announced the RED ONE and you had to wait for two years (I believe) and countless delays.
Even when you do order I understand waiting time is horrendous.
Now they're doing the same with the Scarlett, possibly worse.
The longer they delay the more people will invest in Canon or Nikon systems, which in turn makes it harder to attract new customers for their DSMC line.
And if ordering is such a hassle more impatient folks will just go with one of the more established companies who are known to actually...uh...sell products, not just release pretty Photoshop graphics cameras that one day could be released.

So for as great as RED could be, right now everything they're talking about in terms of Scarlet/DSMC/Monstro/etc , and hyping people up about, are basically just PLANS.

"...Where's the Beef?!"...

[ScooterDe @ Dec 3rd 2008 3:40AM]

I smell lebdev

[davec @ Dec 3rd 2008 8:17AM]

WRONG!! Go to the bottom of the class! I own a Red One and I didn't wait anything remotely like "2 years". You can order the Red One right now (there's no waiting list). Seriously why do people bother posting such ill-informed rubbish about Red on this forum when they don't know what on earth they're talking about - note to yourself = it just makes you look stupid, so why bother?

[Garnet @ Dec 8th 2008 6:40PM]

The FSU film school got their order in just a few months, given that they go enough cameras to go all digital I would guess that a single camera would not take that long. Yea, RED is not like a consumer electronics firm, but they don't really make consumer electronics. They make affordable professional tools.

[Fredrik Alvenes @ Dec 3rd 2008 3:56AM]

What's up with the wheels?

[Ryan Trevisol @ Dec 3rd 2008 6:16AM]

Well it seems obvious to me that their final product is about the size of a hummer.

[Ethan @ Dec 3rd 2008 9:55AM]

@Ryan: Their cameras are about as ugly as a Hummer, too.

[T. Rob Brown @ Jan 23rd 2009 3:18AM]

Hey... the first Macs weren't that pretty, either...

[Sean @ Dec 3rd 2008 4:17AM]

Interesting Jim Jannard story: Back in 1999 I was eBaying some old gear so I could afford a really cool Snow iMac. I decided to sell a "collector's package" of an original 128k Mac + Bondi Blue iMac. At the end of the auction I was preparing the shipping when I realized that the address being delivered to was in Irvine California (15 miles from my work in Orange). The winner gave me directions and told me to ask for him when I arrived. I pulled up to a huge warehouse/factory (Oakley headquarters) and walked up to the front desk and asked for Jim. The receptionist, confused, asked me where I was from. I thought I explained, but she called Mr. Jannard and mentioned that a "Sean from eBay was in the lobby". She was shocked when he mentioned he'd be right down. He came into the lobby and asked me how I liked "his world". I found out that he was on a quest to purchase working models of virtually every existing Mac sold.... Nice guy.... should have asked for free sungasses....

[Justin @ Dec 3rd 2008 4:45AM]

Omigosh. The idiocy in this article is astounding. Why is engadget even posting this?

RED was never a consumer company. It was a digital cinema company. The general consumer probably doesn't even know what recording codec RED cameras shoot on! Why? Because they could probably care less about it! They just want to press buttons and move little dials to make clinky noises that sound nifty!

RED makes cameras for people who KNOW what the hell they are doing. So why don't you folks at Engadget do some research before textually berating a company that defeated the once named label: Vaporware.

[KarlW @ Dec 3rd 2008 7:35AM]

I'm voting you up because, whilst you should probably cool down, you're right about RED.

They were never designing products anyone here could buy. They're a supplier to the movie and cinematography industries. It's not even really good tech/gadget news. It'd be like Engadget doing a special on mortgage deals.

[KarlW @ Dec 3rd 2008 7:39AM]

Ha! After the page refreshed, I saw the update.

That makes much more sense. Techies sure do love photography.

[s.zamani @ Dec 3rd 2008 8:09AM]

I belief that engadget, allways had many informations on equipment for professionells.
also, conserning the "scarlet 2/3" one could really talk about prosumer.

also isn't the article pointing out that: "The rest of the news is targeted at professional film makers?"

s.

[Ari @ Dec 3rd 2008 8:45AM]

the prosumer 3k cam is important in the sense that it will knock out the sony/canon/panny 1080/720p cams in that same price range. i'll be waiting to see side by sides on that front before proclaiming this thing king of the mountain.

outside of that, yeah, you're not going to be getting a 10-20k system to shoot babys first steps...at least i hope not...

[konshuss @ Dec 3rd 2008 12:42PM]

@Justin

while many of the comments appearing on Engadget would lead one to believe that the average reader doesn't want to do more than, "want to press buttons and move little dials to make clinky noises that sound nifty" - there are also those who can grasp the passion involved in investing 40 grand in a camera. Whether or not your personal opinion allows for such people to exist, this is an interesting look at some serious hardware anyone with even a passing interest in movies and production would want to read about.

As for your whining, Jannard's forum signature says it all: "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone with a bad attitude."

[August Young @ Dec 3rd 2008 5:31AM]

If you goto this product announcement page and scroll up about 5 images from the bottm it looks like a DSLR ;-)
It has what its seems to be a shutter release button on the top for landscape pictures and on the bottom for portraits when rotated 90 degress like 1ds canon or D2x Nikon...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23112

[Ben @ Dec 3rd 2008 5:46AM]

Thomas

Did you really miss the one key 'prosumer' announcement in all if this?

The fixed lens Scarlet is going to sell AS A WORKING PACKAGE for $3750. That's pretty significant, as well as the price drops. Then there's the fact that all systems get ANY lens mount, etc. etc.

That's the last time I send you guys some RED news.

[Thomas Ricker @ Dec 3rd 2008 6:00AM]

Uh, we already knew this was based on the $2,500 brain.

http://www.engadget.com/photos/reds-digital-still-and-motion-camera-system-now-official/1155677/

Nevertheless, the complete package price was unknown. I'll update.

Thomas

[Thomas Ricker @ Dec 3rd 2008 6:29AM]

You know what Ben, I stand corrected, this is pretty big. Post updated.

[Ben @ Dec 3rd 2008 10:47AM]

No probs - thanks for the update.

As to your quote: "That officially puts RED within fighting distance of the 1080p-capable Canon EOS 5D Mark II for the prosumer's dollar" - I think that's an understatement.

1) RED's video is/will be infinitely superior to the 5D - in terms of skew, data rate/compression. There is no comparison (having worked with both) - and as it's visually RAW, I can do amazing things in post. The 5D MAY have an edge in low light, but at such a compromise.... Let's just say NO ONE is talking about using the 5D for broadcast.

2) Anyone claiming the new REDs will not be good stills cameras has not seen still images taken from a RED ONE. I work with them every day, and we get 24 stills per second from our footage (that's an 8MP image in reality from a 4K file) of incredible quality. I pass these on to clients for publicity and stills, and they're thrilled at the 'no cost' extra. You can choose the exact image you want from thousands as well - imagine how this would change a photo shoot with a 'tricky' celeb.

The new D3x (whatever it was called) costs $8000 and shoots 7fps. Big deal.

[michael smith @ Dec 3rd 2008 6:22PM]

Thomas you still don't have it right in your latest update. The $3000 fixed lens Scarlet ($3,750 for the kit) does NOT have exchangeable lenses. That version has a fixed zoom lens and would be similar to the Canon - although theoretically much better because it will shoot video at 3k and at up to 150fps, where the Canon EOS E5 Mark II is only 30 fps at 1080P. Next you have the $2,500 model that DOES have exchangeable lenses - but then you'll have to add a bunch of stuff, like a lens, battery, viewfinder, etc. to that $2,500 price. So while $2,500 is less than $3,750 - the real world price on that one will depend on what other stuff you get to make it a functional camera.

But it's in terms of understanding the significance of this new announced update - that $2,500 price didn't change. The significance on a price perspective is that in the previous announcement, the fixed lens Scarlet listed the price as TBD - What this announcement conveys is that Red plans on keeping their promise from last year's NAB of a 3k camera for 3k. It's also significant that they're updating the specs and for the better as they redesign and re-approach the technology.

These kinds of changes to product lines happen at all companies behind the scenes. RED is just being open about what's happening and we're not used to that. They could have just not said anything until next year when the products actually come out, but that's not their approach to marketing. If you think about it, their marketing works as they get as much press on future products that Canon gets on current ones.

Over at my site at michaelsmith.tv I have other observations about the announcement, like what some of the newly released specs mean, such as FF1080P and the new specs (timelapse, and speed ramping). I also compare the old and new details..

http://www.michaelsmith.tv/2008/12/02/red-scarlet-and-epic-more-exciting-details/

[justin.gum @ Dec 3rd 2008 6:38AM]

This article still posts misinformation....

Or at least not all of it.

We don't know what the complete kit is. What we do know is that the Scarlet Brain with fixed lens alone is 3000 dollars. The complete kit is 3750. Speculation says I/O, Battery, and storage.

And Scarlet shoots at FF1080p. It's not compressed junk that EOS 5D MkII uses.

Also, to note.... Scarlet is not fighting against Nikon or Canon. You can tell because of the fact that Scarlet's resolution ranges from 5-24 MP. You spend 3 grand for 5 MP.... or 10 grand for 24 MP..... Clearly, RED is not aiming to match Canon or Nikon....

Ugh...

[Thomas Ricker @ Dec 3rd 2008 6:53AM]

RED is definitely targeting Nikon and Canon while also pursuing pro cinema. This is how the whole thing began with Jannard saying:

"Mysterium "Monstro" is a sensor program that pushes the envelope past anything on the horizon. It will go into Epic, and another camera aimed squarely at the DSLR market."

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18278

[Matt @ Dec 3rd 2008 7:12AM]

Having read of a "ground breaking" announcement made a few months ago, where it was stated that the D-SLR market would be "rocked" (or words to that effect) and then seeing Red re-position their proposition, strangely when the 5D MKII was announced and now seeing this. I fail to see how this revolutionises the D-SLR market. its just "another" video camera that takes stills, and when you consider that the 2/3" sensor is a mighty 10.1mm x 5.35mm in dimension, its just not in the same league as the 5D or indeed any other pro-sumer or semi pro SLR in the same price bracket, for me the 5D II remains the much more interesting proposition, a full frame sensor and HD video support, superb Hi ISO perfomance on stills and the Red, its hi iso wont compete, it does video ... wow, thing is, it was always going to be this underwhelming, i just hope the guy who made the BIG statements originally is suitably embarrased ...

[Ari @ Dec 3rd 2008 7:57AM]

eh, for one, the 4K camera is 1.3 of R,G,B not a true 4K of each color...when they get around the physical limitations, then let me know..

two, 35mm is still kicking ass. i'd much rather have the dynamic range of 5219/7219 kodak stock (in laymans terms, 14 stops of latitude!) then ANY sensor currently available (cmos or ccd)

i don't buy into any manufacturers hype..anyone who's ever had to pull focus on a crappy onboard SD monitor with one of these things can attest to that.

give me: critical focus, workable dynamic range, better noise/gain ratio and smaller bodies (aaton xtr!) and maybe we'll talk...until then..emulsion all the way!

[Ari @ Dec 3rd 2008 8:10AM]

to clarify, the RED ONE uses bayer interpolation, 50% green, 25% blue, 25% red...you're not recording ALL the color information present

[Mikeo @ Dec 3rd 2008 8:27AM]

Well, Foveon/Sigma's your only hope now.

The X3 sensor could have been perfect if overheating (?) and image processing systems are handled right. The Cinema world doesn't need resolution that desperately, so it'd be a snug fit.

[Ari @ Dec 3rd 2008 8:51AM]

it shows what a cinematography dork i am that the X3 sensor excites me. higher color resolution? yes please!

[Moosekiller @ Dec 3rd 2008 9:00AM]

I couldn't agree more.
When I hear people talking about the RED one, as if it was the solution to all problems in cinematography, I get so tired.

Just to clarify: It's not!

Granted, the RED one is quite impressive as a first camera from the manufacturers, but it is not impressive compared to other video cameras on the market, even those that are not full frame, it's not all about size, it's about workflow, compression rates (and REDRAW does not impress me much either, sorry) and ability to shoot under pressured situations.

I just shot 7 weeks on a RED one as first assistant, with Ultraprimes and Arri equipment to supplement with, build 16 by the way.
We had around 2 crashes per day, not counting the times the metal in the batteries lost contact with the v-lock plate (bad manufacturing basically, we tried another brand with great success, but RED chose to put the volt-meter in the batteries, hence you can't see the battery level when using non-RED batteries), we had a lot of "banding" in the viewfinder, and it got worse and worse until we had to revert the camera to factory standards (really annoying when you are on-set), the back-focus had to be checked 3 times more than what i'm used to on other pro-grade video camera brands...

If we're talking size and weight, yes aaton and the 416 beats RED in every way, handheld on RED isn't fun at all...

5219 and 7219 are amazing stocks, breaking all barriers we've been used to in film-shooting... So I agree, emulsion all the way....

[Ari @ Dec 3rd 2008 9:31AM]

that whole film is dead mentality annoys me too...
whatever happened to choosing the right tool to suit the project rather then "hey, thats new and shiny, lets beta test it on location"

i blame producers and the misconception that film will cost more then going HD when in reality it's about the same. i also blame us as a society getting lazier and hoping for instant gratification...

put it this way, if i'm putting an edge light (highlight, whatever you'd like to call it) on someone, would I rather get a nice gentle rolloff of detail, or a horrible mess of pure white clipped crap?

do i want to dumptruck shoot 50 angles of coverage because "tape/storage is cheap!" or do i want to get in with a decent shot list and get only the coverage I know is necessary for the scene?

it's not even a generational thing, i'm in my mid twenties and i prefer the 100~ year old technology...i feel sorry for the next generation of cinematographers that forgo learning how to expose a negative :\

[guy @ Dec 3rd 2008 8:16AM]

While I see potential in their sensor(namely the 645 for a medium format sersor), I highly doubt the DSLR market would consider a RED over a Nikon or Canon. Anyone realizes that the "DSMC" is not even a DSLR? It uses an EVF!

How about the auto-focusing speed? weather sealing? for starter, a hot shoe might help!

Perhaps you are being sarcastic,Thomas?

[Smi @ Dec 3rd 2008 8:32AM]

More hype. More renders. Another hollow announcement full of promises that may or may not come to fruition. Let's see some products, guys? Even if it's only prototypes.
I pretty much lost interest in RED and their products at the last announcement -- I had a little revelation that, perhaps, just perhaps, if they ever get round to releasing something, it might just be amazing. And now this? Meh. I can't ever see this being any serious competition for Canon, Nikon or any of the other big players. Not even the other big players in the cinematography world that are less well known.

Perhaps RED should try and make a dozen or so combinations before going for a million or whatever it is.

I'll probably get marked low for slating them like this, but you know what? I care as much as I care about their 'products'! It's actually how they've spawned a small army of fanboys and a "reduser" forum with very very few people actually ...well, using one.

[bebop @ Dec 3rd 2008 10:21AM]

That's the kneejerk response to RED's annoyingly immature self-promotion, I agree. But, well, they do have an honest-to-goodness, shipping product out that ended up pretty much as they announced, albeit delayed. So this is not vaporware in the true sense of the word. It's more like Nikon announcing the D5 now and telling people to expect delivery in 2011 instead of doing what they do and announcing a camera only when it's already in the van on the way to the stores.

RED is a smaller company, with no direct competition, so it's happy to show off it's R&D at an early stage, seek public input, and yes, publicity. Nikon would never do the same, it would give Canon the opportunity to match and exceed the specs before the design even got off the ground .. as well as harm sales of current hardware.

So anyway, don't get your panties in a bunch: just sit back and enjoy the renders.

[Dunn @ Dec 3rd 2008 8:59AM]

Um, unless something has radically changed from the previous configs (Nov. 13 announcement), the fixed lens is still fixed. The next one up is 2/3" Cinema and then the next one after that is the first "brain" that supports Canon and Nikon glass. That one costs $7000 without the mounts and shoots 5K video and somewhere in the neighborhood of 13MP stills.

Therefore this is, by no means, a threat to the 5D mkII. "But high end camcorders from Sony -> DOOMED.

[asdffdsa @ Dec 3rd 2008 9:48AM]

a 6x4.5 sensor for $43k and a 6x17 sensor for $53k? That is AMAZING. This blows all the high end digital backs like Phase One etc. completely out of the water.

[RyanTV @ Dec 3rd 2008 9:55AM]

"That officially puts RED within fighting distance of the 1080p-capable Canon EOS 5D Mark II "

Yup, it sure does, and I'm willing to bet you can take more than 5 minutes of video at a time before the sensor on the RED camera flakes out like on the 5D.

[Andrew @ Dec 4th 2008 1:07PM]

Have you shot with a MFDB before? While Hasselblad has gone the integrated route, unless RED makes the back work with existing MF bodies, it's not going to be adopted by the pro photography market. Also, people go with PhaseOne not just for the backs, but for the whole workflow. Is RED going to offer tethered shooting with live preview focus? How is the dynamic range going to be? Is it going to be usable in the studio? If they do integrated is the body going to be as unergonomic as the picture seem (use a H2, its designed for photographers)

[DBrim @ Dec 3rd 2008 10:12AM]

If they're targeting the 5DII and the D90 based on video capabilities, I doubt Nikon and Canon actually care. They know that these aren't going to hold a candle to high end video devices. But if you think that the SLR market is going to be changed by this (which you seem to imply?) you couldn't be more wrong. The full frame brain, while cheaper, still costs $9750, while the still cameras with the full frame sensors (5DII, D700) cost $2500.

[Ethan @ Dec 3rd 2008 10:23AM]

Why are we all talking about Canon and Nikon? It's Panavision that should be quaking in their boots.

[Eric @ Dec 3rd 2008 10:47AM]

Panavision lenses is where it's at. The cameras are boxes that let light in. I think they'll be fine.

Most people don't know this, but Panavision lenses were built and designed in the Leica plant in Midland, Ontario until that plant was sold. It's no wonder Panavision lenses are so amazing. The best lens maker in the world was building them.

[jon @ Dec 3rd 2008 10:32AM]

That thing looks comfortable to hold for hours.

Oh wait, no it doesn't.