Toshiba introducing SD-friendly players for flash card movies that no one buys

We hate to harsh on Toshiba here, we honestly do, but what in the world is it thinking? As if its clearly unimpressive Super Resolution Technology wasn't embarrassing enough, we're now hearing that the outfit is expected to release a line of prototype players at CES next week that tout SD card slots. Why, you ask? To accept the flash card movies that -- you guessed it -- no one on the entire planet is interested in. Okay, so maybe a handful of people (you know, the same characters who thought slotMusic was a solid idea) will buy in, but seriously, this has failure written all over it. The move comes hot on the heels of a Toshiba / Mod Systems tie-up to establish kiosks that sell films on SD cards, though we're still curious as to whether these SD card players will be of the standalone variety or integrated into upscaling DVD decks. We'll keep an open mind 'til we see the final product(s) at CES, but it'll take a belated Christmas miracle for this to be even halfway awesome.

[Via Video Business]

[Shoumik @ Jan 3rd 2009 3:46AM]

go to sleep engadget... Wait nevermind.

[JoshL @ Jan 3rd 2009 3:47AM]

Hey cut them a break, I mean, it will still be a failure but you can never be too sure until there's a better way to play the damn things then instead of on your computer.

[Flashpoint @ Jan 3rd 2009 11:47AM]

In theory, this shouldn't have been a bad idea - storing movies on SD cards:

#1 SD cards don't scratch like DVD disks
#2 SD cards are physicaly smaller than DVD disks
#3 SD cards use less energy to play on a portable than a DVD
and the advantages go on and on.
My uncle has a widescreen HDTV which actually has an SD card slot for playback - many dsp electronics do too.

But the problem is, SSD drives are set to kill SD cards eventually - as well as Blu Ray disks - in order for us to move to digital downloads as our primary source of entertainment.

[tekdroid @ Jan 3rd 2009 10:00PM]

Flashpoint, the problem here is yet another type of DRM that will never get widespread support unless most manufacturers get together to support it and the whole "BYO card, download from kiosk" idea being more impractical than a standard retail sale (seems like they want to be convinced that we will go to a store with our own cards, then wait in joy as we transfer restricted video content to it).

Unless the prices are dirt cheap and devices that support this DRM very widespread (and not too expensive)...and unless these kiosks are cheap for retailers to take the risk with, this will have no chance in hell of catching on, despite the popularity of 'normal' SD cards and devices, which, it must be said, are great and arguably a lot more open than this.

[Numbnutz @ Jan 3rd 2009 3:52AM]

Sometimes when i read Engadget these days i think u guys are doing a lot of trash talking. Bitching about a lot of products. Geeks can dream man :)

[JoshL @ Jan 3rd 2009 4:02AM]

Why dream about this though?

It's probably going to be extremely closed off on what it can play/do and its tied into a technology none of us really want. The idea of getting a movie on a memory card isn't bad really but you know its going to be so riddled with DRM that none of us will want to touch it.

[Numbnutz @ Jan 3rd 2009 4:14AM]

@JoshL ofcourse when it comes out it will have DRM but wont we find a way to work around it :). And i already use multiple 1GB sd cards between my mp3 player, car FM-transmitter and laptops to play drm free music.

[Shugg @ Jan 3rd 2009 4:05AM]

Will tank!mark my words,,,,

[JoshL @ Jan 3rd 2009 4:24AM]

You are right Numb... Well, lets hope you are, having access to a high quality portable movie player would have its advantages, lets just hope for support for multiple codecs or at least have it be just open enough to be hacked to allow us to add the codecs =D

That's really what this is all about, who cares if the concept tanks as long as this goes into production and allows for some nice healthy easy hacking. THIS is what the post here should of been about, not just simple mocking of the idea.

[klew @ Jan 3rd 2009 4:36AM]

Cloverfield was shot on an SD card, apparently.

[JoshL @ Jan 3rd 2009 4:52AM]

Well first klew, kind of a pointless comment but disregarding that, its also incorrect. While at least one of the cameras they used outputs to SD cards (the panasonic they used outputs to a P2 card which is 4 SD cards in a raid) the higher end Sony camera they used doesn't output to a SD card as far as im aware. Even if it could, you would get maybe what, a minute or 2 of footage out of the thing?

[THJ @ Jan 3rd 2009 12:24PM]

@ Josh

Watch the movie, you'll see why you are dumb.

[G @ Jan 3rd 2009 4:46AM]

Engadget, i hope you realize you don't have to buy movies on SD cards. You can put movies on an empty SD card.

[Wwhat @ Jan 4th 2009 10:59AM]

That's their point, we don't need a device that also supports DRM'ed movies on SD, we already put ripped movies on SD on our normal players.

[Metkis @ Jan 3rd 2009 4:59AM]

I'm interested in flash card movies! See now your article is just plain wrong. : )

[tekdroid @ Jan 3rd 2009 5:02AM]

"As to movies, he said the kiosks will have at least 1,000 titles available for download. They will be copy protected, which is why existing SD devices will need updated software."
------
Death right there. Plus far too complex versus a DVD.



"Mod Systems also must convince retailers to embrace the kiosks. The alernative is to continue losing business to Internet video streaming and downloads."
-----
Nice try, but this isn't going to go anywhere, and I'm a big proponent of SD cards. They are almost-universal flexible goodness for the purposes of putting our own stuff on them, especially in portable players, cameras, laptops, etc.

Asking us to bring our own cards to a store and downloading stuff to it, and paying for it there is going to make my life better and/or more convenient versus DVD, how? It is going to make me forget about downloads, how? It is going to make my transaction faster, how? Quality will be better how? It's like a convoluted way to inconvenience ourselves more than necessary for something slightly different, and makes the retail experience 100x more complex (do I have enough space? Can I pay cash? How can I play this? Can I take it off the card and onto another one? Can I let my friend borrow my card and play it on his...).

"Toshiba said the kiosks were a "key component of our new media strategy for migrating consumers to digital."
-------
DVDs are digital :)

[chansthename @ Jan 3rd 2009 5:28AM]

Does engadget really need to bash ideas that they haven't even seen yet, I mean sure the idea is real crap and pointless but still......

[William @ Jan 3rd 2009 9:32AM]

I agree, why bash an idea that hasn't even been seen, tested, or clarified. Flash-card movies can be downloadable on demand, or can be sold on write-once cards that are much, much cheaper than the rewritable ones. How many Blu-ray discs do you buy that come on RE-writable media? Duh.

[THJ @ Jan 3rd 2009 12:27PM]

Because there are three widespread physical media video formats over the past 100 years:

VHS
DVD
BD (just barely)

along with countless failed formats (Beta, LD, UMD, HD-DVD, etc)

Anyone who is not skeptic about this is not very bright.

[no_one @ Jan 3rd 2009 1:12PM]

@THJ

What you said is very shortsighted, VHS, BR, HD-DVD etc. are special compared to SD, don't you see the difference?

The SD cards are dirty cheap, the READERS are dirty cheap, simple, solidstate, the technology is OPEN to pretty much everybody.

Now comes the unexpected advantage, the memory density of these small things are now reaching BluRay, SD cards are what 8, 16, 32GB and soom more, prices are expected to drop sharply in following years. Even now those RW-SDs are dirty cheap, what about R-Read only?

This might be easily the winning format if mass marketed. The BluRay reader cost hundreds of dollars, the licensing of BR parts is a big problem, the longevity of those mechanical drives is disputed.

[William @ Jan 3rd 2009 6:40PM]

I'd also like to add that VHS, DVD, and BD have exponentially diminishing returns. VHS was with us how many years? Born in 1976. DVD? Born in 1993. BD? Born in 2000 (2003 for consumers). Can you see the pattern? The consumer window between formats is quickly closing. Why should we be skeptical about any potentially USEFUL format?

Flash storage is getting larger in capacity, broadband speeds are getting faster in bandwidth. Why should we be stuck with this 'ancient' optical storage? You "pseudo" geeks (especially the few ignorant ones at Engadget) don't realize that storage is quickly going to lose the motor, or any moving parts, to be replaced with speed and longevity? If you don't see this coming, then you must be one of those 'hackers' who thinks the PS3 is the perfect replacement for a desktop computer... or maybe you're just happy with your Iomega Zip drive.

[tekdroid @ Jan 3rd 2009 9:38PM]

William @ Jan 3rd 2009 6:40PM
Flash storage is getting larger in capacity, broadband speeds are getting faster in bandwidth. Why should we be stuck with this 'ancient' optical storage?
-----------
You're arguing:
1) flash storage (in general)
versus
2) flash storage (bring your own) and download from kiosk, which is this idea.

Sure no-moving-parts media is finding uses everywhere. Sure it's convenient and small. But not when you have yet another DRMd format like this one. That is what the issue with this idea is. Flash 'blanks' are also still too high versus optical 'blanks'.

Plus there's the whole other side to things, the cost to Hollywood. Cost of replication of optical is still farrrrr lower for these companies than releasing on flash media (not to mention more durable as it cannot be written on accidentally at all; the way all 'original' stuff should come, IMO). Downloads, of course, bring far more savings to them than both optical and flash-based media. Whether or not those savings drift down to us (or whether the quality suffers) in another issue for another day.

The quality of movies, I'm willing to bet, will also be higher on DVD (and Blu-Ray, for that matter) - and these formats allow non-geeks (those not reading this site) to use them without issue in anything that plays them, not worry about whether it has DRM or not in many other SD-capable devices. To the average Joe, anything with that slot must run the video. They pretty much get that with standard DVD and Blu-Ray. I doubt that every device with an SD card slot will read this new DRMd format; the uptake just won't be there.

SD cards with standard formats and no DRM? Sign me up. BYO memory card to kiosk to be raped by restrictions? No thanks. Why wouldn't I opt for an optical disc instead? Versus this they have everything going for them. If history is any indication, these kiosk downloads will cost as much as physical goods offering higher quality and the ability to rip to whatever format you like, should you choose to go the geeky route (DVD, CD, etc).

[William @ Jan 3rd 2009 11:39PM]

@tekdroid:
You wrote: "Sure no-moving-parts media is finding uses everywhere. Sure it's convenient and small. But not when you have yet another DRMd format like this one. That is what the issue with this idea is. Flash 'blanks' are also still too high versus optical 'blanks'."

Ummm.. no where did I read "DRM" from Toshiba in this article. All I saw was "copy protected" -- which -- oh by the way -- is the same thing Bluray discs use. Where does it say I can't take my SD card and play it anywhere?

Oh, and by the way, how much are blank bluray discs? And how much are retail Bluray movies? Wait! I can watch any HD movie on my SD card and only use one or two cards? Hmmm... In the long run, this idea is more affordable. All that needs to change is, perhaps, the delivery method: Kiosk at the mall, or broadband? Or what about a system for Netflix where they send an SD with your rented movie, and now they can recycle the SD card for the next customer? Talk about environmental savings... not only will the Earth have less waste, but the Post Office will finally be ecstatic about those "oversized" first-class envelopes going away. There's so many benefits to using memory cards for content storage (yes, even in this case).

Also, my other point wasn't about flash memory in general being useful -- it's about how the costs are coming down fast, much faster than optical media ever did.

[chansthename @ Jan 4th 2009 8:35PM]

@william

BD-R in Australia are AU$12 and BD-RW are AU$15 each Bluray has a storage capacity of 25gb.
A 2gb SD card is AU10 there is a big difference in price

[Chuck @ Jan 3rd 2009 5:30AM]

Wait, my 3 handhelds, my computer, and my portable DVD player all have SD card slots to play movies from.

There has to be another side to this story.

[Wolfticket @ Jan 3rd 2009 6:42AM]

These Toshiba players will play the new DRM-tastic files on these SD cards, I'd imagine. D'ya really think they're gonna give people nice DRM free movie files that can be conveniently put on straight onto bittorrent?

I don't think this is a bad idea, I just think downloadable content will overtake physical media before this is viable (esp for HD content).

[Gnormie @ Jan 3rd 2009 5:32AM]

If it's just an SDHC Card slot that can also be used for these movies then I see nothing wrong with it, because although many will probably ignore the movies cheap expandable storage on a player is always a good thing.

[simosyd @ Jan 3rd 2009 7:27AM]

I think it's a fine idea, I don't understand all the bagging, forget the kiosks, but what's wrong with downloading movies to SD cards, these would be fantastic in the car, kids could watch what they want, I don't mind the idea at all, I am not ashamed to say I would probably buy one if the price was right.
It's not destined to fail, why? well because if the kiosks don't work, it's not like you won't be able to use the unit still and insert your own SD cards, and it's not like SD cards are about to go out of production anytime soon, yep it might be a niche market, but isn't blu ray too?

[greg @ Jan 3rd 2009 8:05AM]

yea I dunno whats with all the baggin on. Wouldn't playing the movies off of an SD card improve the battery life of portable movie players (which don't have the longevity that most of us hope for.)? At the very least it makes more sense than slot music. If this becomes popular, I can see it at airports and stuff.

[Rotaryfan @ Jan 3rd 2009 9:41AM]

what was it that engadget did to hlat the foleo? we should do that again.

[Michael @ Jan 3rd 2009 10:13AM]

I want movies on an SD card!

Then my Netflix queue wouldn't be constantly interrupted by scratched disks that I waited a month and a half to become available.

[ken @ Jan 3rd 2009 10:44AM]

I think this is a great idea, I would buy a one. I download most of my movies, and it's a pain to transfer them onto a DVD, then play them on my TV. Or I need to spend hundreds more to buy a streamer or a Western Digital black box to run my hard drive, which means I have to buy another external hard drive. It's a lot cheaper to have a DVD player with a slot. That way, I can easily store all my movies on the hd I already have, and put bunch of them on a SD quickly to watch them on my TV if I wanted to.

[Randall Lind @ Jan 3rd 2009 11:02AM]

if it works just as good as a DVD I would look at it. You could also have flash player that hook up to TV's. If this does work good just think of all the space you could save. DVD cases take up a lot of room even the slim cases.

I can store 100's of flash cards in a box.

[willyboy @ Jan 3rd 2009 11:18AM]

Too damn easy to lose SD cards. Especially if one had a large collection. Streaming is today and the future. I know this is a geek blog, but 'feature creep' is getting old.

[Rob @ Jan 3rd 2009 12:51PM]

My main objection to slotMusic is the price. Walmart sells them for $13.99. They must be crazy. I can buy the CD from Amazon for around $9.99. And if Amazon has a sale on that item, I can get the downloadable version for much less. So my question is, what are they thinking indeed. I'm sure that slotMusic is more expensive to produce than a cd, maybe. But, why I should I pay extra to have something on a memory card, when I can buy the cd, for much less, or DRM-free MP3 files from Amazon, and then just transfer that to my phone/player memory.

The tech-savvy market is ready for a transition away from disc. But, not at the cost increases that sometimes double the price and end up with a much lower quality than you'd get if you just play it off the disc.

[theoneneo81 @ Jan 3rd 2009 6:37PM]

wow Toshibia is still being Sore losers this is geting a lil riduclus comin toshiba it wont kill you to make blu ray players i promise

[Dan @ Jan 3rd 2009 8:31PM]

Obsess much Darren? Seriously, the Toshiba-hate coming from Darren Murph got old a year ago. As a parent with two kids who each have a portable DVD player, I can certainly see the rationale behind a portable player with almost no moving parts to wear out or get knocked out of alignment (such as my own old DVD player that they played until its early death). And the idea of being able to add movies at a kiosk isn't bad at all. Imagine one SD card with several movies on it.

Darren just automatically hates any idea from Toshiba or anything that presents a challenge to his dearly beloved Blu Ray format. He probably sleeps on a pile of blue disc cases every night. It's really pathetic.

[Barry @ Jan 3rd 2009 9:08PM]

I'm having trouble deciding who's gonna mop the floor with Toshiba: will it be NetFlix or Apple?

Will this player offer the ability to play movies you ripped at home and dropped on your own SD card? If it won't let you play movies you already own, it's going to end up in the desert, in a hole next to the E.T. Atari cartridges.

[jay @ Jan 4th 2009 12:26AM]

@William
You wrote: "Ummm.. no where did I read "DRM" from Toshiba in this article. All I saw was "copy protected" -- which -- oh by the way -- is the same thing Bluray discs use. Where does it say I can't take my SD card and play it anywhere?"

Yes, DRM is an acronym frequently used around sites like this for "copy protection" when it is used on digital media. Straight copy protection includes the analog version used on VHS, while DRM includes the versions used on DVD, BD, iTunes, and Windows Media.

and you wrote: "Oh, and by the way, how much are blank bluray discs? And how much are retail Bluray movies? Wait! I can watch any HD movie on my SD card and only use one or two cards? Hmmm... In the long run, this idea is more affordable."

Blu-Ray discs are about $7 for 25 gigabytes last I checked via Pricewatch. SD cards are $13 for 8 gigs, at best, same site. So SD cards are still almost 6 times the price, comparing blank, writable media per unit size. Way more expensive per physical mass/volume, though, which may support your minor assertion about a shipping cost benefit... to which I would respond, if that is the argument, then why stop with SD, and not abolish media altogether?

You went on to write: All that needs to change is, perhaps, the delivery method: Kiosk at the mall, or broadband? Or what about a system for Netflix where they send an SD with your rented movie, and now they can recycle the SD card for the next customer? Talk about environmental savings... not only will the Earth have less waste, but the Post Office will finally be ecstatic about those "oversized" first-class envelopes going away. There's so many benefits to using memory cards for content storage (yes, even in this case).

As described above, while you COULD be right, Netflix has already started a streaming service, and recently started beta testing the HD upgrade. While iTunes significantly bested this whole SD card thing a while back, with downloads that are above DVD quality for significantly less money than optical media, often as low as half price, and while their rentals are still pricier than the convenient rip-on-the-laptop-and-return kiosk at the supermarket, the quality and selection are a bit higher.

If this idea constitutes anything, it's a hardware maker hoping on an impossible scheme with an obsolete business plan to somehow save its place in the market, when they would be much better off diverting resources to become part of the HD downloading set top box market.

[William @ Jan 4th 2009 4:39AM]

@jay

You wrote: "Yes, DRM is an acronym frequently used around sites like this for "copy protection" when it is used on digital media."

The site that wrote the article isn't this site. It says "copy protection" which does not necessarily mean DRM. DVD and Bluray are copy protected. Please, instead of citing other's ignorance of what 'copy protection' means as proof, give a real source to this DRM claim of yours.

You wrote: "Blu-Ray discs are about $7 for 25 gigabytes last I checked via Pricewatch"

Did you check a studio-released BD, or did you check Rewriteable Bluray blanks? Don't compare apples to oranges. BD-RW goes for about $20 each, for 25 GB. While flash isn't quite this cheap yet (it's damn close), it has more benefits: WAY faster transfer speeds (imagine sitting and waiting for your BD to be re-written at the store?) SD can also be attached to any device with an flash-media slot or a USB port (with the appropriate reader)... but who wants to carry around a BD player? Try playing a BD with a portable media player! Now try to put flash card in it... chances are, there's a slot for flash already in it.

You (meaning everybody) shouldn't dismiss SD or any flash media as "not a good idea" when it comes to content transport. It's a perfectly good medium, and it's not going to be long before it's cheaper than optical media. Optical media is quickly being outdated, much faster than VHS was. This 'article' which Engadget wrote is biased and typical but not unexpected of them. They are always entitled to their view, but they should realize their ignorance is contagious.

[tekdroid @ Jan 4th 2009 6:22AM]

William @ Jan 3rd 2009 11:39PM
Ummm.. no where did I read "DRM" from Toshiba in this article. All I saw was "copy protected" -- which -- oh by the way -- is the same thing Bluray discs use. Where does it say I can't take my SD card and play it anywhere?
-------------
It mentions, "Oh, by the way, Toshiba will demonstrate prototype players next week at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas." Prototype players I assume to mean players that can play this new restricted, copy-protected, DRMd (whatever you want to call it) format. It also mentions, "The company also has to win the cooperation of other electronics companies to put SD readers in their products. Or software updates must be loaded onto devices like mobile handsets that already have card slots." Note the software updates. That could mean simply a non-standard codec or non-standard copy protection, or anything, really. Point is, it seems like it's gonna be more closed, lock-in, protected, whatever you want or don't want to call it.


William @ Jan 3rd 2009 11:39PM
"Oh, and by the way, how much are blank bluray discs?"
----------------
A lot, but you are getting 25GB, for starters. How much is the equivalent (25GB+) flash memory? A more sensible comparison would be costs with blank and/or rewritable DVDs because they are not doing hidef with this format yet, according to the article. That's for the future. Assuming there is one for this endeavour.

William @ Jan 3rd 2009 11:39PM
And how much are retail Bluray movies?
-------------------
A more sensible comparison would be cost of DVDs. This thing won't compete, nor offer the resolution of Blu-Ray. At least not now. As we get more details on how good (or bad) the codecs and resolutions are (I'm not expecting miracles here, I have to say) then we can talk comparisons with current video formats armed with more than speculation.

William @ Jan 3rd 2009 11:39PM
Wait! I can watch any HD movie on my SD card and only use one or two cards? Hmmm... In the long run, this idea is more affordable.
------------
Two SD cards for one movie? Not very practical, nor cheap. Long run is out in the future. As I say, they are not doing High Definition yet, for obvious reasons. Audio and movies first. No doubt standard def.

William @ Jan 3rd 2009 11:39PM
All that needs to change is, perhaps, the delivery method: Kiosk at the mall, or broadband?
--------------
Well it seems they have their heart set on kiosk and bricks-n-mortar retail here, which is what's pretty laughable to some of us here versus regular DVD sales (well at least it's laughable to me), not the fact that SD cards (solid-state media in general) are necessarily bad or are or are not 'the future'.

William @ Jan 3rd 2009 11:39PM
Or what about a system for Netflix where they send an SD with your rented movie, and now they can recycle the SD card for the next customer?
-----------
I know nothing about Netflix so can't comment here.

William @ Jan 3rd 2009 11:39PM
Talk about environmental savings... not only will the Earth have less waste, but the Post Office will finally be ecstatic about those "oversized" first-class envelopes going away. There's so many benefits to using memory cards for content storage (yes, even in this case).
----------
Environental savings... to really assess this we need to go into how much waste is produced making flash memory versus DVDs and Blu-Rays, something which I don't have the full knowledge of going into here. I suspect that the packaging and weight factors are only a miniscule drop in the environmental damage report (semiconductors are not friendly to the environment...).

William @ Jan 3rd 2009 11:39PM
Also, my other point wasn't about flash memory in general being useful -- it's about how the costs are coming down fast, much faster than optical media ever did.
----------
Costs are coming down fast, but as long as an optical disc format is in high demand (like DVD), those things fly off the shelves at unheard-of prices. It's debatable flash media will ever reach the cheapness of a rewritable DVD of equivalent capacity, but you never know.
Each has their advantages and disadvantages I won't go into, but cost-wise, it's hard to compete with DVD right now and I'd say for at least several more years into the future. The problem with optical disc formats is they can make incremental storage improvements much faster, but releasing them breaks compatibility. This happens occasionally with flash media (SD and SDHC, for instance) but not really too often - so far.

All in all, this concept they have is pretty much doomed to fail, I reckon. SD and flash media in general, of course, will go on, regardless.

[William @ Jan 4th 2009 12:58PM]

@tekdroid:

You wrote: "Two SD cards for one movie? Not very practical, nor cheap. Long run is out in the future. As I say, they are not doing High Definition yet, for obvious reasons. Audio and movies first. No doubt standard def."

You misread. Two SD cards lets you have two movies (or more) at any given time, allowing you to send in or drop of one SD card to get new movies while you shop or via the mail. Try this with a BD and see how long it lasts being reused!

You wrote: "It also mentions, "The company also has to win the cooperation of other electronics companies to put SD readers in their products. Or software updates must be loaded..."

Regarding the so-called DRM -- every company or engineering group in the past had "to win" cooperation regarding any new copy protection. This is nothing new, they've been there before. So what? DRM means I can't take my movie card and put it in any compatible player without first registering the player somewhere. So, it seems to me if Toshiba is able to get "cooperation of other electronics companies" then this implies it is likely ONLY a copy protection, NOT a DRM. Get off the misleading DRM already!

You wrote: "A more sensible comparison would be costs with blank and/or rewritable DVDs because they are not doing hidef with this format yet"

This is bologna. DVD is *not* HD, therefore it's irrelevant to this debate because the competingn format is obviously HD. You can easily fit an HD movie on an 8GB disc, however, nevermind a 16 GB. A 16 GB flash card is the same price as a 25 GB BD-RW right now, and just wait a few more months! If you really want to go Standard Definition, then you can get 4-6 of those on an 8GB SD card. Just because each disc format can hold more, it doesn't mean it's needs to be used, nor used to the consumer's benefit (e.g. extras which aren't needed to enjoy the movie). This, too, isn't a problem when 16 GB is used, nevermind 32 or 64! When will we ever see 64 GB BD-RW?

You wrote: Everything else, you don't know much about...

Thus, the ignorance of this debate is highlighted. There are certain folks who use poor or invalid or irrelevant assumptions with lacking informational background or insufficient forethought when they write their opinions about these technologies. Look at the idiots who said "SSD uses more power than standard motor-driven hard drives!" Yeah, OK....

Again, you've not indicated anywhere why moving to a flash-based format (whether by Toshiba or any other company) would be a poor idea. Who said it's restricted to *only* SD? Just because Toshiba chooses this format doesn't mean everybody has to. Why not a USB hard drive which has 250 GB? Why couldn't the kiosk be upgraded to support multiple card formats? Well, we'd need to start somewhere. Who's going to make this move? You, the 'ignorant' consumer? I doubt it. You don't even think about how recyclable flash memory (or any integrated circuit) is! Why? Ignorance! (Try not to confuse that with stupidity.)

[tekdroid @ Jan 6th 2009 10:27AM]

William @ Jan 4th 2009 12:58PM
You misread. Two SD cards lets you have two movies (or more) at any given time, allowing you to send in or drop of one SD card to get new movies while you shop or via the mail. Try this with a BD and see how long it lasts being reused!
----------
You lost me. This is a kiosk with copy-protected content. Not mail. Not anything else. Naturally my response will be to this idea, not the idea you have in your head. Tangent?

William @ Jan 4th 2009 12:58PM
Regarding the so-called DRM -- every company or engineering group in the past had "to win" cooperation regarding any new copy protection. This is nothing new, they've been there before. So what? DRM means I can't take my movie card and put it in any compatible player without first registering the player somewhere. So, it seems to me if Toshiba is able to get "cooperation of other electronics companies" then this implies it is likely ONLY a copy protection, NOT a DRM. Get off the misleading DRM already!
------------
If you read again what I wrote, you can call it DRM, copy protection, whatever you want. I say call it what you want until we find out more, yes?

William @ Jan 4th 2009 12:58PM
This is bologna. DVD is *not* HD,
-----------
Who said it was? You asked how much retail Blu-ray movies were. Why are you comparing Blu-ray with this product, which will be some form of standard def when released? That was the point here. Compare like to like, not a standard-def format to higher-definition one. Comparing prices here is fruitless. How bout comparing prices (when they release prices) of their (quite likely) sub-par, inconvenient offerings with real retail standard definition DVDs and CDs?


William @ Jan 4th 2009 12:58PM
threfore it's irrelevant to this debate because the competingn format is obviously HD.
---------
You lost me, again. Toshiba want to introduce these kiosks. They will be standard def, not high-def. Compare this to DVDs like any sane human would, not Blu-ray or any high-definition file format, which offers something completely different, resolution-wise.


William @ Jan 4th 2009 12:58PM
You can easily fit an HD movie on an 8GB disc, however, nevermind a 16 GB.
---------
Why this talk of HD when this kiosk offering won't be HD?


William @ Jan 4th 2009 12:58PM
A 16 GB flash card is the same price as a 25 GB BD-RW right now, and just wait a few more months!
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USD $12.99 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817172039
USD $26.99 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820208410
Again, aside from you being well off-base here, and aside from the cheaper one offering 25GB versus more expensive one offering 16GB, I'm not quite sure the point you are trying to make here. Do shop arond and find me one store selling both the same price. Take your time. This kiosk product will be some form of (sub-par?) standard definition on flash cards, for what should be clearly obvious reasons (space, cost of storage, time to transfer in-store too, I'm guessing). But we'll see.

William @ Jan 4th 2009 12:58PM
If you really want to go Standard Definition, then you can get 4-6 of those on an 8GB SD card.
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Great. As I say, it will probably be less quality than an average DVD, that's all I'm trying to get across. Yes I'm aware of more efficient codecs offering good compression ratios. Great and all, but why would the average person bother with this kiosk idea? Unless the price was dirt cheap and they were more on the geek end of the spectrum. And assuming they are, they'd probably be clued enough on downloads without all the inconvenience in-store, not to mention the copy protection. What you are stating is your love for solid-state, which I share to a certain degree, but in the context of this kiosk thing? In the context of (possibly) cheaper and/or better and/or more convenient alternatives? I know one thing's for sure, I'd never lend out my 16GB flash card to a friend (assuming he could play the copy-protected crapfest)...let alone have a company foist its 'copy protection' on me for the privilege. Established formats out there do a far better job on the convenience, usability and (quite likely) quality front versus this offering. Plus they are busted open. But we'll see when we find out more. Please come back then and debate why you love this kiosk idea (if you do).

William @ Jan 4th 2009 12:58PM
Just because each disc format can hold more, it doesn't mean it's needs to be used, nor used to the consumer's benefit (e.g. extras which aren't needed to enjoy the movie).
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Thanks for this. I always thought the whole space had to be used.

William @ Jan 4th 2009 12:58PM
This, too, isn't a problem when 16 GB is used, nevermind 32 or 64! When will we ever see 64 GB BD-RW?
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You're arguing storage improvements to me, and somehow - I'm guessing - trying to state that because flash memory can get 'more' storage, or get it sooner (nevermind the cost), that this kiosk idea will stick? Purely coz of storage? So storage is the main problem here, to make this idea work or be accepted by the masses? My opinion is that storage and cheapness of storage is a very MINOR part of this crap idea.

I can buy a CD or a DVD and share it with almost ANYONE, ANYWHERE, or watch it just about anywhere, in the same stores they want to intro these kiosks to. Tell me why would I bother bringing my own storage, waiting for it to transfer (even if it is only for a minute), and to have the privilege of being restricted with the file, when CD and DVD are busted wide open (allowing us to convert to anything on any device, if we so choose) and still offer us a quality alternative to crappy transcodes for a (mostly) agreeable price?

William @ Jan 4th 2009 12:58PM
You wrote: Everything else, you don't know much about...
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Putting words in my mouth? Please point out where I said this.

William @ Jan 4th 2009 12:58PM
Thus, the ignorance of this debate is highlighted. There are certain folks who use poor or invalid or irrelevant assumptions with lacking informational background or insufficient forethought when they write their opinions about these technologies.
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Ahh, please be specific about what points you are referring to here instead of making general statements like this, being intentionally vague to slip in a thinly-veiled insult while trying to sound intellectual.

William @ Jan 4th 2009 12:58PM
Look at the idiots who said "SSD uses more power than standard motor-driven hard drives!" Yeah, OK....
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This is relevant to this discussion how?

William @ Jan 4th 2009 12:58PM
Again, you've not indicated anywhere why moving to a flash-based format (whether by Toshiba or any other company) would be a poor idea.
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DVDs have been selling for ages. DVDs are EVERYWHERE (ie. they are where they want to put these kiosks) and they play almost EVERYWHERE. CDs, ever more so. The people (person?) behind this kiosk idea even acknowledge that the future will be a mixed. This kiosk offering will be standard definition, and asks us to buy our own SD cards (and buy specific devices that support this new copy protection and/or codec). It sure sounds inconvenient. It sure sounds like yet more copy-protected BS that needs its own players to support it (sorry but I see the market crowded enough as it is, and pre-recorded formats like CD, DVD and Blu-Ray are all after our purchasing dollar, and for the most part, they do damn well...). After purchasing these things, we can pretty much do what we want with these things, broken law or not. Plus they are better than crappier transcodes you may get online, not that most care. How does this kiosk answer any of the prayers of the Average Joe going into the store to buy stuff? It doesn't. It creates a more closed-wall environment with more 'can't-play-it' headaches. We can already do our own stuff on flash media without yet more restrictions. We have bought our own storage for years and put our stuff on it.

On the other end, stores will need to spend big on silly kiosks. A standard retail purchase (since I am already in the store) will be FAR less trouble and take LESS of my time, too. I'm opting for optical discs (CDs and DVDs), which I can share with whoever I please, rip almost any way I please (oh noes lock me up) and enjoy the quality of versus this silly little offering to see if the market will bite. Have I made myself clear? This is no crusade against flash media per se. This is me saying this idea is crap, for the reasons outlined above; there are simply too many good alternatives I can do anything with and share with almost everyone and enjoy decent quality on. At least as far as I'm concerned (and I speak for myself only). That's without going into downloads, far more convenient than bringing my own storage to a store!

William @ Jan 4th 2009 12:58PM
Who said it's restricted to *only* SD? Just because Toshiba chooses this format doesn't mean everybody has to.
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They have said standard definition is for the now, higher-def for the future. Reading into it or extrapolating any more from this any more is fruitless, but knock yourself out. My opinion? This will be a dead duck out of the gate, so the future is irrelevant. No, I am not claiming SD cards will die here. This IDEA will die, IMO.

William @ Jan 4th 2009 12:58PM
Why not a USB hard drive which has 250 GB?
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We can do many things in this world, William, the geekier the better for many of us, but can you imagine the masses bringing their external hard drives (many with their personal files) to a retail establishment? That is the question here. All sorts of legal (data loss issues) and usability and hackability issues come into play the more flexibility you give the user to 'BYO'. Yes, lots of things are possible, but how many will stick? Considering this format requires some special copy protection or firmware to play the files, I doubt it's gonna be smooth sailing to stick that external HD into your Mac or PC and have it play there. Even if all IS SMOOTH, it's really getting far beyond a joke for the retail user at this point. Why the aversion to cheap optical discs? Any technical person can do whatever they want with them any time, on any format. Everyone else can share and enjoy discs with almost universal ease, unlike this offering.

William @ Jan 4th 2009 12:58PM
Why couldn't the kiosk be upgraded to support multiple card formats?
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It could. And then what? More expensive cards offering the same copy-protected content at sub-DVD quality? That's my guess. Cost of storage is only part of the problem here, though. It fails on several retail fronts, IMO.

William @ Jan 4th 2009 12:58PM
Well, we'd need to start somewhere. Who's going to make this move? You, the 'ignorant' consumer? I doubt it.
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It has already started. The ignorant consumer rules and they know simplicity and share-ability, if nothing else. It's the stupid merchants and technologists that need to bow down to these demands and make the offerings SIMPLE and pleasurable.


William @ Jan 4th 2009 12:58PM
You don't even think about how recyclable flash memory (or any integrated circuit) is! Why? Ignorance! (Try not to confuse that with stupidity.)
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Please tell me where I can recycle bad flash memory (and also provide links to how manufacturing it helps save the world in comparison to those nasty rewritable optical discs, if you can). Once again, you're going off on your own 'flash media is great, optical sucks' tangents. The issue here is a laughable kiosk idea, yet you extrapolate my non-eagerness to some Flash-Media-Has-Been-Wronged type of argument. No, that's not my angle at all. In simple words, once again:

This kiosk idea is just silly, IMO. If you have already forgotten why I believe it to be so, please scroll up and read again.

Thanks for your co-operation,
Management.

[Jason @ Jan 6th 2009 12:16AM]

Movies on SD or any solid state devices isn't a bad idea, really. The DRM and kiosks ideas suck though.

Here is what I think most people want:

*The ability to download good quality movies on their computer. They could have a choice between DVD quality (smaller file, faster download) and Blu-Ray quality (large file, slow download).
*The ability to transfer these movies from their hard drives to a common flash drive (USB or faster SSD device would be best), then plug them in, and play them on their TV or portable devices.
*Or the ability to stream or download movies directly to their TV, or portable devices, or transfer them wirelessly from their computers.


Also, if flash drives are to replace hard drives, and optical media they need to get faster. SSD's are becoming cheaper, and USB 3.0 should be out by 2011, so things should get a little better.

[Red1337Sox @ Jan 7th 2009 2:52AM]

Whoa... Comments are getting too involved (:

[serfer @ Jan 8th 2009 3:23PM]

too bad that mod systems will be out of business soon. a friend at microsoft told me that lawyers are calling around asking how their management team bilked millions from an investor named rob arnold and that there is a big lawsuit and how narcotics are being used and sold by mod president. for real. good source. toshiba ncr and others will forget criminal little mod as a partner so forget the music movie thing. too bad sounded like a good idea.

[Mick @ Jan 13th 2009 3:28PM]

Sd cards and/or usb sticks are the data storage units of the future. Engadget just has a hard time seeing that. Compact disks are on borrowed time. I'll give it about 4 more years, before CD's start to get phased out. Look at audio cd's. They're already starting to be replaced by sd cards. Just a matter of time before dvd's and blu rays follow suit. That's why i'm not even going to bother getting a blu ray player. Don't see them being around for very long. I've already started phasing out my audio and dvd collection, putting them all on my hard drive and sd cards. Toshiba is obviously ahead of the game. They know what the near future brings. Way to go toshiba