They weren't just
setting up Project Natal on the
Late Night with Jimmy Fallon set last night for nothing, you know -- Microsoft's Kudo Tsunoda was on the show, giving a little demo to Jimmy, John Krasinski, and Stephen Moyer. The games were the same Richocet and Burnout Paradise demos
we got to play with at E3, but hey, now it's celebrities looking silly on camera instead of us, right? Some are hypothesizing that everyone had to wear the red jumpsuits to compensate for the bright studio lighting and lack of a uniform background behind the players, but it could have just been a Fallon flourish. We're looking into it -- in the meantime, check the video below.
Update: We just hit up Fallon's producer, who told us the suits were just for fun, so that's that. Also, anyone notice Fallon asking Kudo if this would ship in 2010 and Kudo declining to answer during some crosstalk? Good times.
[Via
Joystiq]
posted Jun 11th 2009 12:24PM
Of course you meant John Krasinski.
Microsoft totally cheated on TV: They used the red jumps suits to give the natal sensor better tracking ability so they dont screw up on the show. lol.
...Why does that douche always wear sunglasses indoors? Does he have red eyes from smoking too much pot?
Jimmy had such a nerdgasm, he was screaming like a girl.
Of course he's right, it's not necessary to use Natal, only to get it to work properly.
Also, even though the MS guy claims the Burnout demo is to show there isn't any lag, there clearly seems to be, and that's a dealbreaker. Any other "core gamers" out there notice the same thing?
Kudo Tsunoda looks like such a pretentious douche. He's looks like just another insecure tool that has to wear sunglasses everywhere because he thinks it makes him look cool and/or he can't look people in the eyes when having a conversation without sunglasses on.
It could be a deal breaker, but I see natal being for casual use and casual games. Hardcore gamers will still use controllers unless they can find some interesting hand/feet gestures for run,jump,lean,action,shoot,grenade,reload,flashlight,roll,duck\prone\knife....but i might give that all up if i can give the hand commands to my teammates or give the middle finger to my dead enemies...just maybe. The interesting thing for hardcore gamers is that potentially you could do 4 commands at the same time easily.
andir asks rhetorically (sarcastically):
1) "Hope that you don't have a heating vent on a wall behind you when you play?"
2) "Bright lights make it harder for the camera to pick up people?"
--
1) If the IR sensor is sensitive to heat, then a very hot ambient temperature (or one that closely matches the temperature of the human body), would offer a pretty "flat" depth-map.
2) The camera on the Natal, like any other camera or lens (human eye included), is subject to the limitations of dynamic range. Most modern cameras have a dynamic range of 7 stops (I believe the human eye has a "high" dynamic range of 14 stops, in comparison). Assuming the Natal is on-par with with camera lenses, it would be sensitive to bright lights that overexpose the environment (similar to looking at a bright torch at night).
I don't think anybody in the public knows exactly how the device works yet, but it is safe to assume that the device will suffer from some of the known limitations of similar technologies.
Does it mean Natal will fail, because circumstances on the set of the Jimmy Fallon show were altered? Hardly. It is doubtful Microsoft is making the Natal compatible with all environmental situations, the same as software developers are incapable of making programs that run on every hardware configuration -- it is often logistically or financially unfeasible.
If Microsoft is trying to keep the cost of the Natal down for consumers, they are likely to use components that are good enough to provide consistently high quality operation in average consumer environments (a living or bedroom), but not so sophisticated that they make the cost of the device prohibitive. If this is the case, then the device will understandably (and expectedly) suffer from the limitations I described in (1) and (2).
Meant to reply to Andir 3.0 (seen arguing below).
Wow, a lot of people seem to want this to fail... why??? It is extraordinary. Maybe because they are being paid to be "skeptical", going from site to site shitting on anything Xbox and defending anything Sony. YOu want the name of their "marketing 2.0" firm?
Can't trust anything on the net except your own instinct. "I hate this product and must talk about it". That doesn't work in real life, talking about things you LIKE is what PEOPLE do, spreading FUD about unreleased products is something paid employees do.
Truth + Better Product = WIN. Sony: Black People can't use NATAL. Haha, yep, whatever.
Kudo Tsunoda has an eye condition similar to Bono. His eyes are very sensitive to light.
Then he should have gotten a less-douchy prescription. :)
Microsoft is currently doing more natal testing in the Philippines:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMnk7lh9M3o
I think it looks great.
And to me that's all that matters.
Tobias Funke
The world's first analrapist
Man, I miss that show
the red suits protect them from the project natal evil spirits
http://theabutton.com/?p=207
Of course this is still a prototype, ANYONE would be in rage if that lag was present in a game, Maybe they will add a better processor for the camera by the time is released?
I do wish this was released this year vs the next one or more probably 2011.
John Krasinski?
Yeah... natal is coming out this fall.....
Its not finished you 'genius', rome wasnt built in seven days... or was it weeks... I can't remember
Rome wasn't built in a day...
Apparently the whole world was built in 6 days though...
Wow, that sure makes it clear that Natal has the same problems as Eye Toy. Red jumpsuits to make up for the fact that there's no entirely solid white colored room, including the carpet? I'm wondering how many real-world households Natal will actually work in. Good, at least, to see that Engadget is no longer looking entirely the other way. Or so they say.
This is the exact reason why i am saying that microsoft is marketing this way to early. There is such a thing.
A television studio isnt the same as a living room. And unless you live in the most trippy psychedelic-colored room on Earth, I would assume it will work fine.
No, and neither is an entirely white demo room. Did you look at the demo videos from E3? The room is completely white, all the way down to the carpet. That isn't coincidence, I suspect.
It's because there are a bunch of moving people behind them. The background is suppose to be semi static.
Even Engadget is saying that Natal seems to require a special environment in order to work, be it bright red jumpuits on you, as in this video, or a "uniform background behind the players", as in the E3 demos. Better yet, and entirely white room and bright red jumpsuits. That'll make it work stellar. I can tell you that my living room doesn't have anything even remotely like a uniform background anywhere.
Templarion has a good point actually, all those moving people and cameras could confuse Natal(or make it think they're other players).
"It's because there are a bunch of moving people behind them. The background is suppose to be semi static"
And having solid white walls, ceilings and floors and no furniture helps too.
Come to think of it, "no furniture" shouldn't be a steep requirement for many engadget readers. ;^)
@SteveJ: Wow, you are just desperate for anything that shows Natal might not work aren't you?
During the show last night, Jimmy Fallon pointed out that the suits were not needed to play the game. He said it after they came back from the commercial break after playing the game.
Now, whether or not they wore them for the fun of it or because of the circumstances pointed out in Engadget's post, I don't know. But, Fallon did say they weren't necessary to use Natal.
@RobK: Shhh you'll upset SteveJ, he needs to believe that Natal can't possibly work in order to live.
So far Microsoft has had to have a special environment in the demos they've done. Is there some explanation for that that I'm missing? Did Microsoft think that white walls, ceilings, air conditioners and even carpets are the in thing now?
@ SteveJ: if by 'special environment' you mean one that doesn't include a live studio audience and a sea of professional lighting, you're absolutely right.
As long as you don't steal Merv Griffin's set, you should be okay at home.
@SteveJ: Ya, you're missing the part where they rented that room for E3 and most offices look like that. It wasn't necessary for Natal to work, it was just what was available. They even said so in that same video. What did you expect them to do, kick someone out of their house to demo it?
"Wow, you are just desperate for anything that shows Natal might not work aren't you?"
It's amazing how this has brought out this contingent of folks, who for some bizarre reason, really want this to disappear.
Sure the room needs to be "uniform", but that does not mean THX 1138 desolate, it just means a room without a lot of movement in the background, which is about 99% of all homes. I doubt it's going to mistake your couch for your hand.
Is it going on sale tonight? No! These guys have done a great job just on this. They have plenty of time to work out whatever kinks that come up.
Natal can work - they've shown that. The question is not can it work, but will it work (in a typical house)? The Eye Toy sure didn't, at least not in my house. I didn't remove all the furniture and paint everything white, though. Natal's early announcement is obviously an attempt to slow down Nintendo. I'm not convinced they are actually going to deliver anything, at least not on the Xbox 360.
Adding fuel to the fire!
Remember when the E3 demo showed multiple people moving while in a racing game on the couch???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0IqdRTDJQc
So, has MS already changed one of Natal's future capabilities to something more realistic?
What don't you understand about it being a prototype? Besides, I'd wear a jumpsuit...Dignin style...
"@SteveJ: Wow, you are just desperate for anything that shows Natal might not work aren't you?"
@Mark: And you are pretty desperate to show that it will. What's the difference?
And I thought Natal was supposed to be able to tell depth because of some sophisticated iR camera work and all that. Shouldn't it ignore the crowd in back?
It must be specially tuned to only work at a distance as well (White box on the floor)
If the environment doesn't matter they will not have any difficulty setting up a demo soon in which they can show that. If they can really make it work, at a reasonable cost, it will be fantastic. I do tend to be skeptical of Microsoft's often lofty claims, but not without reason. Promising the world and then under-delivering is their trademark.
@Wiizer
No, again it's the dynamics of where this demo was taking place.
By the way, I'm not really buying the whole red jumpsuit being necessary thing since
1: Jimmy Fallon said it wasn't and
2: It perfectly detected the states of their hands and showed each finger moving correctly in the avatar. They certainly weren't wearing jumpsuits over their hands so if you buy into the jumpsuit being necessary then that should have been impossible
It's pretty easy to find a hand at the end of a long red arm... even for a computer.
@Andir3.0: Once again, a TV studio is a DRASTIC difference from a home. Not only do you have to worry about a very non-static background, but those multiple studio lights put out a LOT more heat than a typical home environment, which would screw up the IR.
The red jumpsuits help distinguish the individual on both the regular AND IR cameras.
It should actually be noted that even in such a restrictive environment, it was able to alter the avatar when a new player stepped up to the plate.
As I posted earlier, Natal won't be robust unless they add something or they use very expensive technology. There is a lot to go wrong when you move. Can you explain it to me why when people is making animation using a suit with dots on it. It is because they need it to be precise. Natal is not there yet IMO. You may say that they prove it..ect..etc.. by how much?
I'm not saying that it is not possible but Sony is taking a more robust way (using the balls controllers).
So people always exited about new tech just like when wii was introduced back a while ago. So what did happen? People were disappointed with the wiimote. We have to wait and see.
PS: I don't understand why people here often not talking academically. You have to listen and think and learn not just believe what you see right away.
Regards.
"It's pretty easy to find a hand at the end of a long red arm... even for a computer."
Yes, but it's pretty hard to correctly find the state of each finger on each of those hands. I don't really know the point of your post, it clearly shows that it can "see" the state of everyone's hands from that video... so what was your point again?
So don't stand in front of a sliding glass door on a hot day? Is that what you are saying? Don't even think about playing the game outside? (I know some people who do...) Hope that you don't have a heating vent on a wall behind you when you play?
Bright lights make it harder for the camera to pick up people?
Your logic floors me.
Finding which hand to track is harder than determining what finger is up when you find it.
"Finding which hand to track is harder than determining what finger is up when you find it."
Again pointless post. It could obviously see the hand and see each finger. If it was really having problems capturing anything that wasn't bright red then it certainly wouldn't have been able to capture as well as it did something as small and thin as a finger. I think you're confusing the camera portion of Natal(the only part that was ever in any doubt with respect to the red jumpsuits) with the software behind it.
You really are that dense aren't you?
It's not about only tracking red suits. The red suits make it easier for the camera to identify a body (a person's shape). Once you do that, finding their head isn't trivial. Finding their fingers is easy as well. If I handed you a picture of a camouflaged soldier laying in a field, it would make it kind of difficult to find his hand, would it not?
@ andir
"Bright lights make it harder for the camera to pick up people?"
Hot studio lights make it harder for an IR camera to pick up a warm body.
Your obtuseness floors me.
"If I handed you a picture of a camouflaged soldier laying in a field, it would make it kind of difficult to find his hand, would it not?"
I don't think you're getting that this isn't a human, it's a computer. Humans tend to overlook parts of a picture whereas computers are programmed to process the entire picture(they don't have the common sense required to overlook parts that seem to not contain anything important). Having on a red jumpsuit doesn't magically make your hands(or fingers) appear in a picture when they didn't before. And it's certainly more difficult to pick out someone's finger in a picture than it is to pick out their torso, arms, or legs(the only parts the jumpsuit was covering).
Okay, so you have this bright and hot light beaming down on a person standing in front of a (comparatively) cold, dark audience. Where in this situation would tracking that hot, bright person be harder for the camera?
Well, I can see I'm working with an idiot. Let me give you a lesson in anatomy Mark.
You see, there's this thing called a torso. It has two arms and two legs coming off it. At the end of each arm is a hand. Each hand has 5 fingers. So if you were a computer, looking for a person, do you scan the room looking for a hand? NO. You look for their body, identify an arm, look at the end of it for a hand... Tada! We found the fingers!
Now, put that body in a bright red jumpsuit and you make it easier for the camera to find the body with arms and legs.
Do you actually think the camera is looking for a floating hand with five fingers?
@andir
Obviously I'm talking to an idiot. Look at the video, the audience isn't behind them, the rest of the stage and the band( also lit by stage lights) is.
This discussion would be more interesting if you had a clue what you are talking about.
@andir
"So if you were a computer, looking for a person, do you scan the room looking for a hand? NO. You look for their body, identify an arm, look at the end of it for a hand... Tada! We found the fingers!"
Actually, that's not how they work. That's how people see things, not computers. Take a look at some of the video analysis software used by Stanford for their Grand Challenge car.
So the band is lit more than they are with hotter lights? I would assume that if both the players and the band were lit, they would both be hotter. Relative heat comes into play now... they should be closer to the camera. Even in an oven, you can identify the heating elements because they are warmer than everything else in the oven.
Or did you just conveniently leave that out of your argument?
Using the hot lights of the studio is not a valid argument is the whole studio is lit.
"Actually, that's not how they work"
You have intimate working knowledge on the inner workings of Natal itself then? (ie: not some Stanford idea on how to detect objects in a scene... )
"Do you actually think the camera is looking for a floating hand with five fingers?"
Are you really that dumb that you don't get what I'm saying? If the camera can, at all, see the fingers then it would have no problem also seeing the much bigger and more obvious torso, arms, and legs. How are you not getting this?
I'm done arguing. It's obvious that the red suits were needed or they wouldn't be wearing them. The technology isn't ready and this is an obvious attempt at Microsoft trying to steal momentum from another competitor with a product that's not finished.
They've done it before, they are doing it again, and the Microsoft fanclub is obviously biting on it with full force. I'm surprised Saad Rabia isn't here as well.
Because mark... it's obviously using the red suits to help it find the hand in the first place... unless of course you and jon have intimate knowledge on the Natal algorithm you aren't disclosing.
Watch gizmodo's video of Natal. They show that the device works in a dark room and when the lights are flickered on and off. The system works on infrared as a range finding device so it does not need visible light. One of the Natal team members said on a blog post that the net result of the infrared hardware is a point cloud that represents the objects.
@ andir
Relative heat is correct, the waste IR coming off the studio lights is likely enough to wash out the relatively minor differences that the distances would add.
Try this, put a candle 10 ft from a camera, now put another 20 ft away. Now shine bright ass lights on both of them, guess what, the camera is going to have trouble telling them apart.
"You have intimate working knowledge on the inner workings of Natal itself then?"
No more than you do.
So, when you assume you know how natal works you are right, but when we assume we know how natal works we are wrong?
Dude, go to bed.
Engadget and Joystiq both tried out the Natal demos. Were they wearing red jumpsuits?
Also, something that nobody has pointed out yet: The PS3 motion controller is a ball of light. It DOES NOT work in well-lit rooms. Fact. Yes, my "fact" is based on bias and conjecture--but that hasn't stopped anyone else.
I saw this in a vision I had of the future....the caption read:
"HUMAN PRISONERS REBEL AGAINST THEIR MACHINE OVERLORDS"
GOD FORBID A PROTOTYPE DOESN'T WORK LIKE THE FINAL PROJECT!
YOU NEED A RED JUMPSUITS FOR A PROTOTYPE? SHITSUX WII PS3 AND SEGA ARE BETTER!
have you ever even been on the set of a film or a show?
when you have literally 50,000 watts (probably more) of light, especially when the lamps are aimed towards the camera, shit is not going to work right.
since most of you are not in the industry, it makes sense to not to realize how much lighting can affect everything.
dont you guys think they're wearing the red suits just to be on the safe side so that natal has a lesser chance of screwing up infront of audience in a LIVE show??
@Andir3.0:
How else are they going to hype up their new project? They're not going to reveal it and release it, they need to build excitement in the public. Every company displays products that are still being developed and tweaked. This has obviously been in development for quite a while. I may be giving MS a little too much credit, but I don't see them releasing this without making it for the average home. I'm sure they'll be testing this in a lot of different places and making sure outside elements such as lighting and such will not affect the game play.
The users didn't have to wear red jumpsuits on Good Morning America and Project Natal seemed to work just fine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX7TyAKQE74
Natal tracking has NOTHING to do with color. Its primary means of detection and tracking is with a near-infrared camera. The color of your shirt and background has nothing to do with it.
Ander3.0 said: "So don't stand in front of a sliding glass door on a hot day? Is that what you are saying? Don't even think about playing the game outside? (I know some people who do...) Hope that you don't have a heating vent on a wall behind you when you play?
Bright lights make it harder for the camera to pick up people?
Your logic floors me."
Apparently Andir3.0 is a moron.
I guess I wasn't wrong in my assumption that you REALLY don't understand the difference between 'bright' lights (or a single point light source like the sun coming through some drapes) and an array of over a dozen unfiltered TV studio lights pointing at the camera (look at the multiple shadows).
Long and short of it is that in an environment that wasn't in Natal's design parameters (and far outside the norms of 99.99% of most home Xbox 360 setups), it WORKED.
There's no point in following up any more of your damned questions, because it's obvious you're nothing but a bag of sour grapes.
PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW
United States only? WTF?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ5J4yXA5sM
You send us the finest and liquor your country has to offer and maybe we'll talk.
*women* and liquor ...
Darn your commenting system!
NBC is the absolute worst of the bunch. Seriously, they even block short clips and SNL digital shorts, apart from full episodes. And that's bullshit, because on other networks (like the comedy central site) there aren't even ads on sub-10 min clips.
Plus, I wish once and for all they'll all get together and come up with a fucking standard for web players. Preferably something based on HTML 5 and has nothing to do with flash.
download Hot Spot Shield and enjoy Hulu anywhere in the world!
Thank you @AlCabone!
Hot Spot Shield also doesn't work sir!
Kudo is still a douchebag. Maybe ditch the sunglasses while inside.
http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2008/08/column_bell_game_and_candle_ta.php
"I can see fine; like Bono of U2, I have a medical predisposition to light."
Still, he has some pretty expensive glasses on, so I can understand a little of the hostility.
@Wiizer: you got that from satirized made up quotes?
That's pretty badass
The racing game was a lot better.... gotta love John when he honks :D Jimbo is gr8
So how do you activate the boost on Burnout Paradise? LOL Natal is lame.
I was hoping he would start a race or other mission.
So Natal is lame because you can't activate the turbo in a game being used a tech demo?
If you read anything about Natal from E3 you'd know that making a "shifting" gesture activates boost, so although they didn't show it in the video they have more commands for the game.
You probably activate boost by giving the drivers behind you the finger. Eat my dust ya bastards!
I think they wore the jumpsuits to look like a race crew.
Wow.
F**k Hulu, can't see the video.
f*** hulu
here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l34mJ6qYm7I
In the background you can hear him say at one point he "can't promise it will be out in 2010"
ouch
That's probably because MS hasn't announced the release date yet. He also can't promise it will be out by 48693 either.
Didn't catch that. At which point in the video did he say that?
That would definitely suck - that's a long time to wait. More than a year and a half?
They would definitely need to have some mind-blowing and polished demos at next year's E3 to keep the interest of the public and the industry. I believe Microsoft is on record as saying that they will only launch Natal when they have enough games to really showcase it, so I'm hoping that this would be the major holdup (since 3rd party devs just got the Natal development kit at E3). Hopefully 3rd party studios are excited enough about Natal that they will work hard to be in the initial lineup of Natal-enabled games at its launch, and because of their efforts Natal can launch by the 2010 holiday shopping season at the latest.
I think Microsoft can focus on "showcase games" that use Natal to its full potential, and 3rd party devs can focus on enhancing their already-in-progress triple-A titles to optionally work with Natal. If developers get their asses moving I could see the following before the end of 2010:
- Wii Sports like controller-free game developed internally at Microsoft to showcase the motion control
- Wii Fit like controller-free game developed internally at Microsoft to showcase the motion control
- Dashboard update to allow motion control to control the XBox interface
- Milo "game" to showcase Natal's advanced voice and emotion recognition
- Triple-A shooting games developed both by Microsoft and 3rd party devs that *optionally* have their immersiveness enhanced by Natal as follows:
- can *optionally* use Natal head-tracking to replace the right analog stick
- can *optionally* use gun "controller" for targeting and firing
- can *optionally* give voice commands to squad members
- Triple-A shooting games developed both by Microsoft and 3rd party devs that *optionally* have their immersiveness enhanced by Natal as follows:
- can *optionally* use Natal head-tracking to replace the right analog stick
- can *optionally* use gestures for spell casting?
- can *otpionally* give voice commands to party members
I don't think it's totally unreasonable that Natal could launch by November or early December of next year with a lineup of 10 or so games across a broad range of categories. The key is that the 3rd party devs don't have to start to develop a Natal game from scratch - they can simply retrofit games that are already in progress.
i heard you say its coming out in 2010 you said right ?,
there is ,,,,,,i cant comment to on yet,,,,,,,,(cant understand his words but it sounds like this )
i.....or when its due or ....not
(its really hard to hear but on the videos i have seen its around 2:55 min into the video)
way to much noise from he xbox to hear clear
@mrD: I swear I thought at the end of that exchange, Kudo's last words were "2009." I know it was clear that he downplays the 2010 possible release, but could he have been saying that it could be ready at the end of 2009? Probably not, but as I posted on Joystiq, it still seems like all this demoing is too soon for a product that wouldn't be released for a year or more. Also, "Natal" is Portuguese for "Christmas."
So, I'm confirming it. Natal: Christmas 2009.