@mr unverified I'm not blaming ANY of this on microsoft. This is China's problem.
And I wonder how microsoft, a software company, is their leading customer... more so than HP, Best Buy, Samsung, Foxconn, Acer, Logitech, and ASUS? Interesting.
Maybe this is a dumb question but...Why are they all bent over NOT working???? JK, but really why do they all have their faces down like they are playing heads up seven up? Is this just to hide their faces from the photographer? Or is it break time? Anyone know?
Similar problems in US prior to the industrial revolution. However change might come a lot slower in a pseudo communist nation where a few people have all the power.
Not really, more like companies can't afford american taxes and labor. It's not really capitalism, it's really communism that's allowing this. It's a shame though.
@Timmmm it might not be americas problem but the companies do choose what countries to make business with and its sad to see they choose countries where the working conditions are horrible
Thank you for bringing this to light, but your employer is part of the problem. Engadget is very quick to point out when a new device or gadget is more expensive than a competitor or the price for a new product is "steep" (one of the favorite words in Engadget reviews).
If you don't want to be a part of the problem then explore why one company charges more for a product than another. Maybe it costs more because the manufacturer takes their business to a country that has better labor laws and working conditions.
@gustavomd India has similar conditions and they are a parliamentary democracy. In India, workers of US backed companies are payed for 8 hours of work, but they work an extra 8 hours because they will lose their job if they do not.
@Timmmm microsoft while a being a software company makes tons of crap. headsets, mice, webcams, keyboards. hell walk into any computer store and youll see every little piece of crap that logitech makes has a microsoft counterpart. Not to mention all the accessories for the zune and Xbox as well. And someone has to stamp those CDs/DVDs out that we buy.
@Timmmm it's probably peripherals manufacturing. Microsoft hardware includes mice, keyboards, and webcams in addition the the XBOX and all of it's accessories. I imagine that's largely what's being made for everyone else.
Microsoft isn't just a software company (ex. mice, keyboards, webcams, zune, xbox consoles and accessories). Microsoft isn't the largest hardware company, It'd just this factory's largest contract.
@mr unverified This is our problem, and we do have a direct hand in the unacceptable and deplorable working conditions of those people who manufacture the products we purchase.
I admit, I like my toys, and I like to buy them at a low cost. But I have to reconcile my ability to purchase electronics (among other things) at cost less than their actual value, with the effects this price has on the manufacturing/delivery chain.
So for everyone who wants to blame this on capitalism, communism or socialism, your barking up the wrong tree.
Companies want to make money, Consumers want stuff cheap. In order make the products cheaper and keep the profit margins up Companies will do just about anything.
I have to disagree. Yes, that is the easy option. Their problem. However we as a nation preach human rights. How can we preach the rights of human beings (and NOT just Americans) if we don't stand up for our beliefs?
Capitalism? Really? That is one of the most idiotic comments I've ever seen on Engadget, and as we all know, that's saying something.
The reason working conditions are horrible in China is because of China, and anyone who says otherwise is at the very least, bordering on insanity.
This is why I believe no non-Chines company should do business there, ever. And spare me the, "Apple does it, or Microsoft does it." It doesn't matter what company does it, it's wrong, period.
@gustavomd that my be true that these are socialist countries, but that's a false correlation - being socialist does not inherently mean the country must have lax labor laws.
It's entirely possible for a country to be socialist and have stringent labor laws. Despite what Fox news would have you believe, "socialism" is not a blanket word to be thrown around whenever something is bad.
@PastorTom I was really hopeful when Google announced that it's going to pull out of China. I think all major companies should stop doing business with such countries.
Morally it's wrong but as a developing nation, that's how economies work.
Developing nations (India, China, Mexico, Vietnam, etc.) are now going through their industrialization period just like what the US and GB went through.
You, as a foreigner of a developed nation, can say it's wrong but it's up to the people of those countries to enact changing policy.
@PastorTom If CE companies stop doing business with such countries, prices will definitely go up, but I would prefer to pay more for my gadgets than to live in this fake reality created by making others suffer.
@mr unverified Which is going to give the Chinese a higher quality of life.
No one is forcing these youngsters to work at these factories, they do it because they find it preferable to working in the fields with absolutely no hope of a future.
Take away these factory jobs or impose strict regulation, and more of them go back to the fields.
In the fields they work 15hrs a day 7 days a week, but outside in the heat, under the sun, with a hunch in their back by age 40 and nothing to show for it.
All European countries went through the exact same thing during industrialization. Its normal.
@Timmmm Surely its microsoft's responsibility to check manufacturing conditions, its not like this happened only once, at some point in the one of the worlds largest companies, somebody with the power and responsibility to do something about it will have found out
@mr unverified And this is the same kind of hypocrisy as when we tell developing nations that they shouldn't remove jungle to expand housing and farming development, or kill the leopard that makes them fear going out at night.
Yet where are all the forests and dangerous wildlife in Europe and North America?
Germany is Germany, the United States is the United States, and China is China. If you don't mind paying higher prices, buy products that are made in the US and Europe, it would reduce the huge trade deficit and lower unemployment as well (skilled labor has a much higher hourly productivity rate).
@markolic There's no Purchasing Power Parity between the two countries. 50 cents US can buy you a great lunch in China but to get a Honda Accord it'll cost about 50k$ US.
I'm not sure what's sadder, the working conditions or the toxic waste. I do know that you cannot lay all the blame on the feet of China/India/wherever. It is the forces of capitalism that send the manufacturing work to these places, to lower the cost of the product to the consumer while simultaneously maximizing profits for the manufacturer. Then you have, to pick an example, telecoms pushing for everyone to get a new cell phone every year with your old one ending up in a landfill.
Hell, I'm pretty sure my cell-phone had code in it to make the text-messaging malfunction after a year; for a while it was screwed up and then it started working right again. If' I'd called to complain I would have been pushed to buy a discounted new phone. Even if I'm just being paranoid, my service provider still started calling me after a year, trying to convince me to upgrade.
Imagine that. After nearly two years my old clamshell still does everything as well as it did the day I bought it (notwithstanding the month or so when it was screwing up). The hardware is still basically sound (a few buttons are starting to wear out now). And yet I was pressured to buy a new one while the old one had plenty of life left in it.
If even a cheap phone can last two years of decent treatment (and it's not like I've never dropped it) then surely a little more care in design could make it even more reliable. A little more money spent on manufacturing would improve the quality of life of many, many people. Hell, we could even bring jobs back into more "developed" countries (USA, where I live, for instance). The price of the phone might go up a little, but there's no need to buy a new phone every year, so overall you might even save money. And much less waste would be created.
All it takes is a shift away from thinking of items as being ideally cheap and disposable.
@Timmmm THIS IS NOT CHINAS PROBLEM! Holy crap! There are plenty of 14-15 year old workers here in America who lives in horrible conditions!
The problem isn't Microsoft or the Company or the Government. It's simply the way our world works nowadays. There is no problem. We are accustomed to other work environments and so are they.
@Toshiba Apple has a over 50% profit for every iPhone they sell (even more for iPad) but Foxconn only has a 2-5% one for every iPhone they assemble. If Apple and the consumers are not to blame, I dunno who is. The worst case scenario is capitalism met totalitarianism indeed.
I have been to one of the CM's in Dongguan (not this one) that produces XBOX systems and controllers, and I have to say, what I saw was nothing like this. With that said, I did not see any living conditions (they did live on site), so I can't comment on much of the article. Only a few of the female workers looked young, most appeared to be in their 20's.
One thing I was amazed at was the area around the factory was at the lowest level of poverty. The factory looked like a resort in comparison. It did make us a little uneasy when they required we give them our passports when we entered the security gates. Just glad that we made it out.
This is not to portrait a way of life in US this is a way of life in another country, a country which is over populated, street filled with unemployed college graduates while others are forced to retire because of younger and better replacements. Sure it sucks the factory workers have bad food and long working hours but who's to say it's worse than some other country where people were borne with HIV because their place were in terrible health condition and they were living only to wait for slow and painful deaths. You can say it's China's fault for lax labor laws or even blame it on the factory executives for greed, what makes you think countries like US had it any better. Why are there people boycotting places like Wal Mart? This happens EVERYWHERE and unless someone with authority do some thing about it, all these client companies will look the other way because of the money they will save. These factories may generate false reports later (if ever) about improved living condition if things get heavy but it would take alot to make these scumbags change their ways of making profits.
@mr unverified Those pictures, reminds me of the child-labor pics portrayed when a leaked report surfaced about apple using kids for labor. http://j.mp/apple-child-labor-phone
@Zatx Agreed. While companies demands the biggest profit to go back to the business and pay for expensive US labors, and still keep up with the production and sell products at competitive price to consumers, what is left in the pot for the largest population in the manufacturing process? Don't want to be part of the problem, don't buy the product. If it weren't happening in China, it would be happening in India. If it weren't happening in iPhone, it would be happening in xbox.
@GGG Exactly, thank you so much for pointing that out. They were socialists ages ago, but like Leon Trotsky predicted, they eventually rebuilt the capitalism around them(the party).
@PastorTom You honestly don't know anything about capitalism, and what happens as a result if you can say that capitalism has nothing to do with this. It has EVERYTHING to do with capitalism and nothing to do with china.
Immediately after reading the source article, I posted a link to it on my facebook profile; I felt that the non-techies in my circles should learn about this as well.
Maybe we should all spread the word out so it would garner attention in regular media as well and force more companies to investigate the human conditions of their vendor factories in China/Russia/India and other third-world countries.
Now that we've thrown 'em off the trail, use the form below to get in touch with the people at Engadget. Please fill in all of the required fields because they're required.
capitalism
@mr unverified I'm not blaming ANY of this on microsoft. This is China's problem.
And I wonder how microsoft, a software company, is their leading customer... more so than HP, Best Buy, Samsung, Foxconn, Acer, Logitech, and ASUS? Interesting.
@Timmmm
Good point.
@mr unverified
Maybe this is a dumb question but...Why are they all bent over NOT working???? JK, but really why do they all have their faces down like they are playing heads up seven up?
Is this just to hide their faces from the photographer? Or is it break time? Anyone know?
@nicholas1987ucsb i love heads up 7-up
@mr unverified
wrong. it's socialism... capitalist countries have much more protection for the labor force...
you see this kind of conditions on socialist and dictatorship countries.
@nicholas1987ucsb
I think they are taking a nap after lunch, which is like a tradition for many chinese
@mr unverified
Similar problems in US prior to the industrial revolution. However change might come a lot slower in a pseudo communist nation where a few people have all the power.
@mr unverified
Not really, more like companies can't afford american taxes and labor. It's not really capitalism, it's really communism that's allowing this. It's a shame though.
@Timmmm it might not be americas problem
but the companies do choose what countries to make business with
and its sad to see they choose countries where the working conditions are horrible
@Timmmm
Microsoft sells plenty of hardware under its brand name. Most of it is pretty good.
We are all guilty of not being willing to pay what things are worth. This is half the reason work gets contracted out, off-shore.
@mr unverified
You want $99 HD2's, this is what happens to get them.
@ Laura June
Thank you for bringing this to light, but your employer is part of the problem. Engadget is very quick to point out when a new device or gadget is more expensive than a competitor or the price for a new product is "steep" (one of the favorite words in Engadget reviews).
If you don't want to be a part of the problem then explore why one company charges more for a product than another. Maybe it costs more because the manufacturer takes their business to a country that has better labor laws and working conditions.
@gustavomd India has similar conditions and they are a parliamentary democracy. In India, workers of US backed companies are payed for 8 hours of work, but they work an extra 8 hours because they will lose their job if they do not.
@Timmmm
microsoft while a being a software company makes tons of crap. headsets, mice, webcams, keyboards. hell walk into any computer store and youll see every little piece of crap that logitech makes has a microsoft counterpart. Not to mention all the accessories for the zune and Xbox as well. And someone has to stamp those CDs/DVDs out that we buy.
@Timmmm it's probably peripherals manufacturing. Microsoft hardware includes mice, keyboards, and webcams in addition the the XBOX and all of it's accessories. I imagine that's largely what's being made for everyone else.
@Timmmm
Microsoft isn't just a software company (ex. mice, keyboards, webcams, zune, xbox consoles and accessories). Microsoft isn't the largest hardware company, It'd just this factory's largest contract.
@mr unverified This is our problem, and we do have a direct hand in the unacceptable and deplorable working conditions of those people who manufacture the products we purchase.
I admit, I like my toys, and I like to buy them at a low cost. But I have to reconcile my ability to purchase electronics (among other things) at cost less than their actual value, with the effects this price has on the manufacturing/delivery chain.
So for everyone who wants to blame this on capitalism, communism or socialism, your barking up the wrong tree.
Companies want to make money, Consumers want stuff cheap. In order make the products cheaper and keep the profit margins up Companies will do just about anything.
@HotDog
"companies can't afford american taxes and labor. "
Taxes are not supposed to be part of a pure capitalist society.
China has state control over many utilities but for every other business, there are no regulations. That is more like true capitalism.
America doesn't have a pure capitalistic economy and China doesn't have a pure communist economy.
@Timmmm
I have to disagree. Yes, that is the easy option. Their problem. However we as a nation preach human rights. How can we preach the rights of human beings (and NOT just Americans) if we don't stand up for our beliefs?
@mr unverified
Capitalism? Really? That is one of the most idiotic comments I've ever seen on Engadget, and as we all know, that's saying something.
The reason working conditions are horrible in China is because of China, and anyone who says otherwise is at the very least, bordering on insanity.
This is why I believe no non-Chines company should do business there, ever. And spare me the, "Apple does it, or Microsoft does it." It doesn't matter what company does it, it's wrong, period.
@gustavomd
Actually, that's not true. You're thinking more about developed versus developing markets.
America went through the same thing when it was a developing nation.
Also, neither markets are pure "communist" or pure "capitalist".
@gustavomd that my be true that these are socialist countries, but that's a false correlation - being socialist does not inherently mean the country must have lax labor laws.
It's entirely possible for a country to be socialist and have stringent labor laws. Despite what Fox news would have you believe, "socialism" is not a blanket word to be thrown around whenever something is bad.
@gustavomd Exactly, I agree.
@PastorTom I was really hopeful when Google announced that it's going to pull out of China. I think all major companies should stop doing business with such countries.
@PastorTom
Morally it's wrong but as a developing nation, that's how economies work.
Developing nations (India, China, Mexico, Vietnam, etc.) are now going through their industrialization period just like what the US and GB went through.
You, as a foreigner of a developed nation, can say it's wrong but it's up to the people of those countries to enact changing policy.
@PastorTom If CE companies stop doing business with such countries, prices will definitely go up, but I would prefer to pay more for my gadgets than to live in this fake reality created by making others suffer.
@mr unverified Which is going to give the Chinese a higher quality of life.
No one is forcing these youngsters to work at these factories, they do it because they find it preferable to working in the fields with absolutely no hope of a future.
Take away these factory jobs or impose strict regulation, and more of them go back to the fields.
In the fields they work 15hrs a day 7 days a week, but outside in the heat, under the sun, with a hunch in their back by age 40 and nothing to show for it.
All European countries went through the exact same thing during industrialization. Its normal.
@Timmmm Surely its microsoft's responsibility to check manufacturing conditions, its not like this happened only once, at some point in the one of the worlds largest companies, somebody with the power and responsibility to do something about it will have found out
@illuminerdi This is soo freaking sad, I totally wanna go and give a worker a sammich and then hire them as maid service for 75 cent an hour
@Timmmm Don't forget Apple. Apple=Foxconn, Asus
@mr unverified And this is the same kind of hypocrisy as when we tell developing nations that they shouldn't remove jungle to expand housing and farming development, or kill the leopard that makes them fear going out at night.
Yet where are all the forests and dangerous wildlife in Europe and North America?
Germany is Germany, the United States is the United States, and China is China. If you don't mind paying higher prices, buy products that are made in the US and Europe, it would reduce the huge trade deficit and lower unemployment as well (skilled labor has a much higher hourly productivity rate).
@markolic
There's no Purchasing Power Parity between the two countries. 50 cents US can buy you a great lunch in China but to get a Honda Accord it'll cost about 50k$ US.
@mr unverified Not socialism, not capitalism, more like socialists trying to compete in a capitalist world. And maybe a little greed thrown in.
I'm not sure what's sadder, the working conditions or the toxic waste. I do know that you cannot lay all the blame on the feet of China/India/wherever. It is the forces of capitalism that send the manufacturing work to these places, to lower the cost of the product to the consumer while simultaneously maximizing profits for the manufacturer. Then you have, to pick an example, telecoms pushing for everyone to get a new cell phone every year with your old one ending up in a landfill.
Hell, I'm pretty sure my cell-phone had code in it to make the text-messaging malfunction after a year; for a while it was screwed up and then it started working right again. If' I'd called to complain I would have been pushed to buy a discounted new phone. Even if I'm just being paranoid, my service provider still started calling me after a year, trying to convince me to upgrade.
Imagine that. After nearly two years my old clamshell still does everything as well as it did the day I bought it (notwithstanding the month or so when it was screwing up). The hardware is still basically sound (a few buttons are starting to wear out now). And yet I was pressured to buy a new one while the old one had plenty of life left in it.
If even a cheap phone can last two years of decent treatment (and it's not like I've never dropped it) then surely a little more care in design could make it even more reliable. A little more money spent on manufacturing would improve the quality of life of many, many people. Hell, we could even bring jobs back into more "developed" countries (USA, where I live, for instance). The price of the phone might go up a little, but there's no need to buy a new phone every year, so overall you might even save money. And much less waste would be created.
All it takes is a shift away from thinking of items as being ideally cheap and disposable.
@twbrien
Microsoft's CD and DVD are actually stamped in a factory in Puerto Rico.
@Timmmm THIS IS NOT CHINAS PROBLEM! Holy crap! There are plenty of 14-15 year old workers here in America who lives in horrible conditions!
The problem isn't Microsoft or the Company or the Government. It's simply the way our world works nowadays. There is no problem. We are accustomed to other work environments and so are they.
@Toshiba
Apple has a over 50% profit for every iPhone they sell (even more for iPad) but Foxconn only has a 2-5% one for every iPhone they assemble. If Apple and the consumers are not to blame, I dunno who is.
The worst case scenario is capitalism met totalitarianism indeed.
@gustavomd
"wrong. it's socialism... capitalist countries have much more protection for the labor force..."
you have no idea what you are talking about, china is the most wildly capitalist country in the world and this is the consequence.
capitalism does not always equal democracy
people who say they are socialists do not always equal actual socialists
@mr unverified
I have been to one of the CM's in Dongguan (not this one) that produces XBOX systems and controllers, and I have to say, what I saw was nothing like this. With that said, I did not see any living conditions (they did live on site), so I can't comment on much of the article. Only a few of the female workers looked young, most appeared to be in their 20's.
One thing I was amazed at was the area around the factory was at the lowest level of poverty. The factory looked like a resort in comparison. It did make us a little uneasy when they required we give them our passports when we entered the security gates. Just glad that we made it out.
*Not an MS employee
@Timmmm
This is not to portrait a way of life in US this is a way of life in another country, a country which is over populated, street filled with unemployed college graduates while others are forced to retire because of younger and better replacements. Sure it sucks the factory workers have bad food and long working hours but who's to say it's worse than some other country where people were borne with HIV because their place were in terrible health condition and they were living only to wait for slow and painful deaths. You can say it's China's fault for lax labor laws or even blame it on the factory executives for greed, what makes you think countries like US had it any better. Why are there people boycotting places like Wal Mart? This happens EVERYWHERE and unless someone with authority do some thing about it, all these client companies will look the other way because of the money they will save. These factories may generate false reports later (if ever) about improved living condition if things get heavy but it would take alot to make these scumbags change their ways of making profits.
@mr unverified Those pictures, reminds me of the child-labor pics portrayed when a leaked report surfaced about apple using kids for labor. http://j.mp/apple-child-labor-phone
@Zatx
Agreed. While companies demands the biggest profit to go back to the business and pay for expensive US labors, and still keep up with the production and sell products at competitive price to consumers, what is left in the pot for the largest population in the manufacturing process? Don't want to be part of the problem, don't buy the product. If it weren't happening in China, it would be happening in India. If it weren't happening in iPhone, it would be happening in xbox.
@Timmmm Microsoft makes mice, keyboards, zunes, speakers, everything.
@GGG
Exactly, thank you so much for pointing that out.
They were socialists ages ago, but like Leon Trotsky predicted, they eventually rebuilt the capitalism around them(the party).
@PastorTom You honestly don't know anything about capitalism, and what happens as a result if you can say that capitalism has nothing to do with this. It has EVERYTHING to do with capitalism and nothing to do with china.
@mr unverified
Kudos to Engadget for posting this...
Immediately after reading the source article, I posted a link to it on my facebook profile; I felt that the non-techies in my circles should learn about this as well.
Maybe we should all spread the word out so it would garner attention in regular media as well and force more companies to investigate the human conditions of their vendor factories in China/Russia/India and other third-world countries.
@mr unverified
This thread is a good example of why I try to avoid being "first". Your inbox gets blown up w/ unverified responded to your comment.
can I use /i for irony?
@nicholas1987ucsb you work 15-hour shifts, six and seven days a week and then you tell me why you have your head on the table.
@gustavomd
Yeah, socialism powered by capitalism. Who do you think is buying all that shit? Not the rationed socialist countries.