New Zune review (part 2): upgrade, hardware, software and Social

When we first caught wind that Microsoft was in fact doing its own portable media player (and then published the first ever photo of the Zune), we hoped it might finally be the play to knock the iPod off its perch. Sure, in mid 2006 there was no shortage of devices more advanced than any given iPod, but then (and now) the iPod enjoyed unchecked dominance of the market in the US and many countries abroad. Steve Jobs knew the day would come that Microsoft would really enter the game.

What we were hoping for was that the portable media world might be in store for another Sony / Nintendo upset. Remember in the 90s how Sony and Nintendo's partnership went awry, and Sony, totally sick of Nintendo completely owning the game console space, brought out the original PlayStation? Before the console's second generation was through Sony had more market share than they knew what to do with. Sony upped Nintendo's game with the PlayStation, then upped their own with the PlayStation 2 -- and took over.

If Sony could do the impossible and topple the infallible Nintendo of old, surely Microsoft, the world's largest technology company, could make at least make a dent in Apple's armor. Yeah, the first-gen product is important, but the second gen product is crucial, because if you can't up your game -- and everyone else's -- you're just another player. This year, Microsoft really had to make the Zune count. Read on to judge for yourself whether they did.

The first generation Zune, as we all know, was little more than a slew of off the shelf hardware and software Microsoft cobbled together in a rush to make a play for the annual holiday gold rush. (Peep our original Zune review here.) And the interesting part is, all things considered, it really wasn't bad at all. No one thought it was "done", but it was a lot better than some of the other PMC-based devices we'd seen to date. This year Microsoft brought a slew of new Zune products (and enhancements) to the table, including two new players (flagship 80GB and the flash model), new device software (which runs on all devices), new desktop software, and a new service (Zune Social, a music-oriented social network reminiscent of Xbox Live).

Device software
Yeah, we know Microsoft technically skipped right past device software v2.0 and jumped to 2.2, but the update is the best place to start since it affects the most users and devices. Microsoft won some well-deserved brownie points for ensuring all Zune players new and old can run the new firmware, meaning that for now your old Zune will have feature parity with the new hardware.

So here's the deal with the device software: it adds some crucial bits (many of which we expected the first time), takes away some minor but important things, and leaves the other 90% largely unchanged. First, the stuff Zune 2.0 takes away:

• Song flagging
• The five star rating system
• The language menu

The good stuff, though, is very good:

• MPEG-4 and H.264 playback support
• Podcasting support
• Sync over WiFi (which we'll get to later)

In terms of performance, both old and new hardware and firmware were almost identical in testing. A lot of people have been claiming the new firmware is much snappier, but we didn't find that to be true at all. Two Zune 30 devices boot up within a half second between 1.0 and 2.0 series firmwares, and the flash-based Zune 8 we tested booted to home screen less than a second faster. Traversing menus took no more or less time, nor when syncing and the like. (Note: scrolling through long lists appears to happen slightly faster, but that's likelier an interface tweak, not a performance increase.)

New Zune review (part 2): upgrade

Interface and apps
As for the interface, there's almost nothing to say there, either. Microsoft prettied a few things up, but there were very few substantive UI changes -- nearly everything was cosmetic. The main menu is now in an amusingly massive font; the Community menu is now the Social (and it doesn't sleep when looking for devices, anymore), which is also now listed above FM. The cursor has more of a glow, but users now also have one more click to get to the enable / disable WiFi option (which is pretty annoying -- turning WiFi on and off should as close to a root-level menu option as possible, if you ask us),

Browsing music is largely the exact same experience. We still prefer the Zune's twist interface to just about everything else out there, including our beloved SanDisk Sansa, but that didn't stop us from hoping that Microsoft would make some significant changes this time around and take the concept to the next level. So you could say we were let down in that department. The only other things of interest that have changed is the ability to disable display of the album name when browsing by artist, the removal of track flagging and the five star rating system (which is now blank, heart, or broken heart, and totally reminds us of Zelda), and the addition of micro-sized album cover art up top when twisting horizontally through albums and tracks.

And unfortunately for the Zune team, Apple made some significant improvements in their products' UIs since last year. In fall of 2006 the Zune twist UI pretty much categorically trumped the iPod's, but it's been a long year, and while Microsoft basically stayed basically at a standstill, the iPod interface got a much needed and much-improved redesign. (We'll leave the iPod touch and iPhone out of this, although we do think those devices' media apps handily outclass the iPod classic and nano.) Deciding whose UI is better is wholly subjective, but our feeling is that while we prefer the twist UI concept, the iPod now has more polish.

Still, it makes you wonder why Microsoft didn't try a little harder on that. For example, iPhone with Cover Flow was announced shortly after the first Zune, and browsing your music by album art is quite the novelty that would have been right at home on the Zune. Or why not fill out some of the utilitarian functions the iPod still doesn't do, like add a recently played tracks list, or the ability to delete tracks on your player? And how about the ability to make more than one on the go playlist? Microsoft could have really gone to town here.

The Zune also isn't up to speed on many of the apps and extras other media players have bundled. Besides the obvious omission of content downloads over the air like the Archos 605, there are no games for the Zune, nor is there a PIM app. Not that we do a lot of data organizing on our MP3 players, but the iPod does go the extra mile with mini-apps for calendars and contacts, multiple clock types (world time, alarms, and a stopwatch that even logs data), notes / text reader, and, of course, games. When it comes to the value-adds the Zune is still a non-starter.

Zune 2.0 update, comparison

WiFi sharing
Another part to get overhauled is the WiFi music sharing feature; most notably, shared songs are no longer limited to three days (but they are still limited to three plays), and now they can also be re-shared without purchase. But there are caveats. Like despite the fact that you can send and receive podcasts via WiFi, you still can't download them over the air. (Neither the iPod touch nor the iPhone are capable of this out of the box, either, although there are 3rd party apps that fill the gap.)

There is one upshot to podcast sharing, though: if you receive an audio podcast from a friend it won't be three-play DRMed the way shared songs are. (Say, do we smell some tracks-shared-as-podcast hacks coming on?) But there's a pretty big downside to podcast sharing, too. Microsoft separates audio and video podcast content, and for whatever reason video podcasts can't be shared. At all. Why Microsoft differentiates sharing between video and audio and podcast content is entirely beyond us. And another irritating and baffling problem: you can't send or receive tracks with Zunes of different firmware versions. Just can't, sorry. If whomever you're sharing with didn't want to upgrade their software, well, tough noogies, you just can't exchange music until they upgrade (or you downgrade).

Part of us wonders, though, do any of these WiFi sharing problems really even matter? Hear us out. We don't know about you, but in the last year not one of our Zunes has ever gotten busy with another Zune in a public place; most of us have never even seen another Zune out there. It could well be years before enough Zunes are floating around out there that the whole sharing thing isn't just a total writeoff. So maybe that's what we need to do here -- just totally write off the sharing.

Hardware
This year Zune hardware underwent three significant changes: the flagship player was upgraded to 80GB of storage and thinned / lightened, there's the addition of the two flash players, and all new devices make use of the Zune Pad, a four-way d-pad combined with a touch sensor, so that users may click or sweep in four directions. (Selection is still done by pressing the center.) We'll tackle these hardware changes one by one.

As we mentioned before, Microsoft neglected to send along a Zune 80 for us to test, so we can't comment so much on that device's hardware, although we have spent some real time with the Zune 8. First, the screen size: while the flash Zune's 1.8-inch screen isn't all that much smaller than the nano's 2-incher, when you're watching video on a screen this small every fraction of an inch counts. And when you realize the like the SanDisk Sansa View has comparably massive 2.4-inch screen you'll feel all the more cheated. Of course, the upshot of a smaller QVGA display is that that the menus look friggin amazing against the larger screened devices. Don't get us wrong, we'll take the full-size Zune's 3.2-inch QVGA display over the iPod classic's 2.5-inch display any day, but since it's QVGA any way you cut it, the menus and on-screen effects tend to look worse the larger the screen gets.

As for the Zune Pad, we turned it off. It's a fine enough idea, the whole sweeping back and forth thing, but we're sticklers for tactility and there's little reason to sweep when clicking the squircle sides tends to work better than the pad's touch sensing. Besides the Zune Pad just not feeling quite right (sweeping motions didn't predictably correspond to cursor movement), it's also worth mentioning that our experience with the Zune Pad wasn't entirely bug free, either. Even with touch sensitivity turned off, clicking left or right with a second thumb resting (but not pressing) on the opposite side of the Pad resulted in scrolling the reverse direction. We're not even kidding. (It took us a while to figure that one out, so if your Zune ever scrolls the wrong way, make sure no other fingers are touching the pad.) And yes, even despite all this we prefer the simple, tactile 4-way d-pad to most -- if not all -- of the other hardware interfaces out there, especially the iPod's clickwheel. (Of course, given our druthers we'd just move entirely to touchscreen media interfaces since they're far more conducive to that kind of task.)

Sound quality was fine, nothing to write home about. We don't even test with stock headphones anymore, they're almost always a joke. And any audio nerd worth his or her weight in vinyl will tell you that most devices are designed well enough by now that your cans and the bitrate of your tracks are likelier to affect sound quality than the hardware. Some Zune users have reported an inordinate amount of noise coming from the drive in the Zune 80, but we did our tests on the Zune 8, and had no problems -- things sounded exactly as they should with 192Kbps MP3s and our reference Shures.

Desktop software
If you want to get down with the new Zune player it's impossible not to notice the new Zune desktop software. Partly because your fresh-from-the-box second-gen Zune is disabled from playing any of its pre-bundled content until it's activated with this software, but mostly because there's not another piece of media playing software out there that anywhere near resembles the new Zune 2.0 desktop app.

New Zune review (part 2): Desktop software

This time around Microsoft's traded in the stack-filled content view from WMP11 / Urge-cum-Zune 1.0 for a much more list-oriented interface. We think it's a lot better. The ability able to sort by tracks you dislike is also good for quickly finding music you want remove from your Zune or library, although it'd still be better be preferable to delete it on the go so you don't have to think about doing that later. The layout is, for our money, far better than Zune 1.0, which was muddy and tried to do too much at once. The new Zune app is far simpler and easier, although in editing it down Microsoft left out some essentials, like ID3 tag editing. Frankly, the company would do well to consolidate its efforts and bundle its best of breed audio app with Windows boxes. There's just no reason to make people choose between WMP10 and Zune, especially with Urge dead and gone.

Wireless sync is a welcome addition, and definitely something we wish more portable media did, no doubt. You can't set it up without plugging in though, but the process was fairly painless, and the system supports almost all kinds of WiFi encryption. Just like turning wireless on and off, though, we wish it wasn't buried two menus deep.

New Zune review (part 2): WiFi sync

Another new nicety is the now playing screen, which builds up a tiled background based from your album art. Zune Marketplace hasn't undergone too many changes, except that it's a little less visually overwhelming than before, making browsing a little easier. And instead of the semi-vague way Apple tags iTunes Plus tracks, just expecting everyone to know what that even means, DRM-free tracks in the Marketplace are simply marked MP3 -- a lot more to the point, and appreciated.

The other notable additions to the software tie into other new services: Podcasting and Zune Social. Podcasting is as simple as you'd expect: search for your podcast (or browse by topic / genre), then add it to your subscription list and download recent episodes. The only real issue we saw here was that this podcast directory was missing a lot of images, and plenty of shows aren't yet filled in. Of course, that will get better with time. As for the Zune Social integration with the desktop app, well, there isn't much. Microsoft obviously wants to make the Zune Social a web-based experience, so besides seeing incoming messages from other Zune users, everything is funneled to the Zune Social site.

New Zune review (part 2): Podcasting

Zune Social
The big story this week was that J Allard and his crew want to integrate Microsoft's device-centric services, like Xbox Live and Zune Social, into something a little more cohesive. If you've given Zune Social a shot and know a thing or two about Xbox Live, this won't surprise you at all. Zune Social is Xbox Live re-envisioned for a browser instead of a console, with music replacing games. Ok, maybe that doesn't sound very similar at all, but the touches are all over it. If you use the same Windows Live ID as your Xbox Live account, your Zune Social account will come pre-populated with your Xbox Live friends. And the same as Live, you can see what those friends are doing (in the form of recently listened to tracks), send messages, show off your favorite and recently listened to music, and so on.

It's not without issues, though. It's irritating that the one cross-platform aspect of the Zune experience -- the social music site -- works for crap in Firefox. (We didn't even try it in Safari or Konqueror or anything else.) The Flash interface loads all wonky like and the audio didn't always play. Also, when we listened to music on our device and synced back to the software, nothing changed over on our profile -- which was kind of the whole point of Zune Social, right? Oh, and what's with the fact that you can't actually use the word "Zune" in your user status?

Zune Social is a fine novelty and diversion, and might one day make a compelling extension to Zune -- especially when you can do things with Zune Social FROM your Zune device, and not just a desktop -- but for music nerds it just won't replace or even really expand on powerful discovery sites we like to use to find new artists, like RCRD LBL, Hype Machine, and Critical Metrics.

New Zune review (part 2): Zune Social

Wrap-up
The market leader takes it from all sides, and this year's Zune fixes many of the problems the first Zune suffered -- meaning those waiting on the sidelines for the Zune to improve will want to take a second look. But in many regards, a lot of these upgrades -- like H.264 and MPEG-4 support -- could (and should) have been rolled out much sooner to make the first Zunes more attractive over the course of the last year. There just wasn't any need to make first-gen users wait for second-gen hardware to get something as basic as podcasting support. And given the ever-so-minor tweaks to the UI, we just get the general feeling of Zune 1.5 -- not 2.0. The statement we think they're trying to make, though, is that between the interface and hardware, which got decent (but not drastic) upgrades, and the overhauled and rewritten software, Microsoft is on track to what the Zune team probably originally envisioned for the product. The only problem? This product isn't ahead of the curve, and consumer expectations aren't the same as they were when the product launched last year. You don't get ahead by playing catch-up.

Granted, there are numerous things the Zune can do that the iPod can't -- just like the iPod does numerous things the Zune can't. (And don't even get us started about players like the View, which can be had for less than a Zune 8 or an 8GB iPod nano, yet has twice the capacity.) But we don't see the peripheral features on either side like WiFi song sharing or games as being key differentiators; as everyone and their mother (literally) gets a portable media device, it's becoming a matter of familiarity, and the fact is that statistically most people are familiar with using an iPod. The same familiarity that keeps the hordes of mainstream users from making any drastic changes to their technology habits will keep them from tossing in the iPod / iTunes towel so quickly.

What that means for Zune is that if Microsoft wants to take some chunks -- not chips -- out of Apple's market share, they're going to have to out-iPod the iPod. They have to come up with truly compelling reasons to change. Now it's not just about having a nano killer, it's about having a touch killer and an iPhone killer too, since those devices are selling like hotcakes and pumping up the iBrand. While we've got to give it to Microsoft for not losing vision on the Zune and doing their best to master the basics, the reality is that the vertically-integrated media player game is one Apple's been playing since 2001, and any competitor, be it MSFT, SanDisk, iriver, or whomever, are really going to have to pull out all the stops if they want to thin that lead. A game-changing device is not what we feel we've got in Zune 2.0.

So as we said before: same place, same time in late 2008? Bring your A-game, Zune, and we'll be ready.

[jagowar Posted Nov 18th 2007 10:35PM]

willyboy,

im not saying you cant compare them but engadget should compare it to something you should be comparing it to... the ipod classic but there is a very good reason ryan doesnt want to do that... he knows as well as anybody the zune fares very well against that.

it would be like comparing a pickup truck to a lexus... sure you could compare them but in the end does it really matter? (and a lexus with 1/8th sized gas tank). that reason (storage capacity) alone makes the touch useless to me.

[(Unverified) Posted Nov 20th 2007 10:47PM]

and at the back of Ryan's mind.. hes comparing the ad investment APPL has given to engadget against MS's ad buys.

[resource Posted Nov 18th 2007 10:36PM]

Much better review.
That last Zune review was horrible.

I'm not getting a PMP until after CES.

[(Unverified) Posted Nov 18th 2007 10:40PM]

I think this and all of the other reviews is missing one of the strongest selling points of Zune. Zunepass. With unlimited song downloads, the sharing aspect makes more sense than ever. Who cares if you are limited to 3 plays if you can add a song indefinitely with a $15/mo subscription.

While millions of people are willing and able to rip, download or however they prefer to obtain their collections, there are tens of millions of others who do not yet own an MP3 player simply because they don't have a substantial music collection to justify it.

If you compare 15 song downloads per month versus unlimited, it even makes the Zune that much more a better value.

[Rajivsri Posted Nov 18th 2007 10:52PM]

have you ever used the cover flow on the classic iPod/new nano? It is frickin useless. The Zune team pretty much rewrote the ZM software and has come up with a totally new device in the last year. This is good enough. Granted it wont be a Playstation or a Playstation2, but is well on its way to become a Xbox 360.

[incendy Posted Nov 18th 2007 10:58PM]

You forgot to mention the single click menu on the device to go to the artist which was much needed, although I do agree it should have been in the first version. As for the software, I find the Zune interface superior to the ipod when it comes to music. Not only does the Artist page look nicer, but the Bio's are more detailed, it shows their most popular songs on the main page, has a video section if available and also a related artist feature that I really love. You also go straight to professional reviews from the album section. As for the social aspect, I have had no issues with the zune card with either Firefox or Safari, so perhaps you are using third party plug-ins or have computer issues you might want to look into

[jagowar Posted Nov 18th 2007 11:08PM]

i agree.... the new zune software is actually very good once you get past its few issues (namely the metadata editor... i still dont know why they updated the servers a week before zune2 came out and didnt bring it to the new software). but the new zune application is one of the best management suites ive used. its ram/cpu usage is very very good compared to other applications.... on my system zune uses 1/3 the resources of itunes and it shows when using them.

[kcellb Posted Nov 18th 2007 11:05PM]

At least they got rid of the brown.

-- Karim Baz

[AlexNC Posted Nov 18th 2007 11:22PM]

I bought a Zune30 off Woot.com for $100 in anticipation for the new firmware. What a great deal for a solid piece of hardware/software. So far I am loving it. Has FM for in the morning at work. Good podcasts support for mornings also. Larger screen for album art and videos for when traveling. And I love the navigation of the music - being able to go up/down and side to side. It makes browsing through your music much faster than the iPod GUI structure. I used to have an iPod, but it died, so I picked up the Zune for $100. Best money I have every spent. Top notch, and does a good job of filling the features that the iPod left out (Wireless sync, FM radio, faster file navigation). While I loved my iPod, I find the Zune to a much more rounded player.

[nerdron Posted Nov 18th 2007 11:28PM]

I think the new firmware is a lot faster on my 30gb Zune 1. did you see the video of the comparison of firmwares over on zunerama?
http://www.zunerama.com/articles_024.php#071113_zune4_story

[AlexNC Posted Nov 19th 2007 9:18AM]

No, I did not see that video, but I ran the old firmware for about 3 weeks before upgrading it to the new 2.0 firmware. The difference is huge. All of my menus run much faster. There is no longer a delay when moving from album to album when playing on random and clicking right/left on the d-pad. The next art now comes up instantly. Seriously, I am still baffled why more tech blogs are not pushing the Zune30. It is easily the best deal in the electronics industry right now. Instead, you hear blogs like Engadget picking it apart for ridiculous reasons. Some of the points Engadget brings up in their defense for giving it bad grades makes me wander if Engaget are really tech experts. They seem to be out of touch of what really makes a good DAP.

[incendy Posted Nov 18th 2007 11:33PM]

One more thing I wanted to comment on was the sentence about touch screen being better suited for navigation. Personally most of the navigation I do on my portable is without sight, either while I am driving, running, or walking while it is in my pocket and because of this I found the Ipod touch not only unusable for me but also really annoying. I have had this same issue with Pocket PC's for years and in fact it wasn't until they made them voice activated that I felt comfortable using one for music and even then I prefer being able to feel my way around because I don't want to have to appear to talk to myself:)So while it may offer more features, to me it kills one of the great advantage of having a handheld device that can be controlled sight unseen

[(Unverified) Posted Nov 19th 2007 7:18AM]

I don't really care about Apple.
Review should just be about the product itself.

Getting really tired of iPod this, Apple that kind of crap.
Can we just stick to the Zune review?

Why do I have to know about iPod interface when I am interested in knowing Zune?

I really don't care if other product is more polished or not since **** I **** am the one to decide on which UI looks better. OK?

(Meaning, giving opinion about which UI looks better is not so objective.)

[iComment Posted Nov 19th 2007 12:22AM]

And the Wii outsold the PS3 (except last month in Japan).

It's not abt tech specs, it's abt marketing and userability

[(Unverified) Posted Nov 19th 2007 12:46AM]

I am so disappointed at my new Zune 80. I feel for all teh hype befoer the Zune launch and now feel like a sucker. Aside from separating podcasts from music, where is the real podcast support? It should have the ability to bookmark and increase the speed of the podcasts, not to mention delete on the fly....or at the very least "mark" for deletion.
I have the old Creative Zen Xtra, Zen Micro, iRiver H20, Archos 4 BG MP3 player, and Sansa e200 (I don't buy anything Apple). ALL of these players have given me satisfaction and ALL give me flexability to do more. It seems that Microsoft made teh Zune 2 for dummies. There isn't much you can do with it. I will admit it has a stellar interface and I love the screen, but feel so ripped off having paid this much for a player that can't do basic things that would be expected in 2007.
I'm just glad I didn't buy the flash Zunes I was going to get as gifts. I guess I'll have to stick with Creative and Sansas for now. Anyone want to buy my Zune 80?

[(Unverified) Posted Nov 19th 2007 9:41PM]

Podcast support is terrific. Umm...once you PLAY the podcast, the next time you sync, that podcast goes bye-bye. The pc software does a great job at pulling them down and syncing them to the device. And why the hell would you speed it up? That is the first time I've seen that mentioned anyway. WTF? What the hell else would you want to do with a device that is designed to be watched or listened to? The Zune does what it is supposed to do and does so very, very well. Oh, and it's THE, not TEH.

[(Unverified) Posted Nov 19th 2007 1:09AM]

I forgot to mention, the Zune interface is OK. It could b emuch better if we could simply remove entries from the Podcast lists. For example, after listening to a show, I would like to remove the entry alltogether, not just mark the font in grey for (already listened to).

The really annoying thing is that there is no owner's manual or CD with an electronic version. Instead, you are forced to go to the Zune site to poke around, clicking all over the place to find out that your question will not be answered by the supplied information. They don't even have a PDF version of the manual to download, so doing a quick search for a specific topic is time consuming and useless. VERY, VERY frustrating. I really want to love my Zune, instead I think it's something that has so much potential, but leaves you unhappy. Accepting it for what it is and for what it currently does, I can see how someone can love it. But I have too many devices that do so much more..again the reason why I feel ripped off.

[MarcusMaximus Posted Nov 19th 2007 2:42AM]

there are 2 user guides that come with it... at least there are for the 80 gig, I would assume it's the same for the others.

[MarcusMaximus Posted Nov 19th 2007 3:06AM]

ya... the zune doesn't really sound like the device for you... It's really for people who A: are computer illiterate but want to have a sexy looking music/video player or B: just don't want to have to deal with the complexities of the other players you mentioned. I fit in the latter category in case you're wondering. Honestly I never listen to/watch a podcast more than once so bookmarking is worthless to me, the resume option is good enough. As for speeding it up... I don't see any possible benefit to that since it would make the voices all squeaky. But the features I gain far outweight those relatively nothing downfalls(at least for me). I use the wireless sync exclusively since charging from a wall socket is faster than charging through pc and I only sync a few songs/podcasts at a time. The UI, as you said, is beautiful; The desktop software is probably the best music program I've ever seen; The touch pad is super intuitive and easy to use; it automatically locates and syncs recorded tv shows; etc, etc, etc. People need to keep in mind that this is not going to be the player with the most versatility simply because it's super intuitive.

[MarcusMaximus Posted Nov 19th 2007 3:07AM]

damn... that was meant to be a reply to Ivan...

[spanishgringo Posted Nov 19th 2007 4:08AM]

CORRECTIONS:
Zune 30 DOES NOT really have h264 or MPEG-4 support....it still has to transcode everything since the codecs are hardware based.

Also, Zune software DOES have a ID3 Tag Editor (you have to click List View of Music), but it sucks and is not nearly powerful or flexible enough. Also, it only works with music, but not videos or podcasts (stupid).

[(Unverified) Posted Nov 19th 2007 4:16AM]

Call me when they care about the rest of the world.

[(Unverified) Posted Nov 19th 2007 5:36AM]

Call me when the rest of the world cares.

[(Unverified) Posted Nov 19th 2007 5:45AM]

True!

[(Unverified) Posted Nov 19th 2007 5:00AM]

I am very glad that I made up my own mind rather than listening to the v1 reviews last year and the v2 reviews this year. My Zune 30 was a great player and my Zune 80 is even better. I read both reviews on Engadget and I find review 2 to be just about as negative as the first review. It is too bad that many people are going to depend on reviews only when making their purchasing decisions. Make sure to go out and try one on your own or bring one home and try it out with the Zune software and your own media and make up your own mind. The Zune 80 is a great product. I have preferred the Zune UI from the beginning which is why I purchased the 30 last year.

I prefer the ZunePad over the directional. It is nice I am able to use both on the 80 though. It is nice to be able to scroll lists with a flick of my thumb, similar to the iPod touch without the smudged screen. I have the Zune v1 wireless remote with my home a/v kit in my car and with my home audio system and I find that I miss the ZunePad touch features when I use the remote. Being able to scroll through songs, albums, artists, etc.. is much easier when I can just flick my thumb on the Zune Pad and it scrolls quickly rather than having to continuously hold down the directional. I think it is easier to use than the iPod click wheel as it takes flicks rather than constant spinning to scroll. Apple agrees as the flicking motion is used on the iPhone and iPod Touch...

The premium headphones are much nicer on the 80. They block out much of the outside noise, sound better, and MS really made a classy looking product with cloth wrapped wires and even the ear buds look nice with the Zune logo on them.

Speaking of accessories, all of my Zune 30 accessories work with my Zune80. All I had to do with my Zune 30 Dock was remove the faceplate on top and below it is another faceplate that the 80 fits in. No additional adapter needed. It fits snuggly. With the dock working, I was also able to control it with the Zune 30 wireless remote as well. Nice that MS allowed v1 accessories to be compatible with v2. This was in addition to MS making the v2 firmware available on v1 devices. Thanks MS!

In the review it was suggested that the Zune would benefit from something like Cover Flow. The Zune has had something like CoverFlow since the beginning. You can scroll through Album Art on the Zune UI, and have been able to since v1, by going to albums and scrolling up or down. It shows album art, album name, and artist. Apparently album art needs to spin in a circle for it to be "special" like Cover Flow. Maybe it reminds people of the merry-go-round or something?! :-) You can also scroll horizontally on albums with the new firmware.

In regards to the software, I like the fact that I can drag media on to a Zune icon on the new Zune software and sync via my wireless network at a later time if my Zune is in another room. It would be nice to be able to view my collection on my PC via my Zune wifi and add and remove items and sync that way but I imagine this would be fairly complex to add as a feature.

Podcasting is a great new feature. It is easy to use and syncs consistent with the rest of my media.

Something that wasn't mentioned in the review regarding the Zune Social website, you can share songs via your ZuneCard. It is a pretty cool feature. You click on an album or song on your ZuneCard and one of the options that pops up is Send. You can send it via e-mail or to another friend with a ZuneCard. This is yet another cool way to share music with other people. It provides a short sample of a song that can be played via a music player that pops up after the message is opened. then the person you send it to can buy it from the marketplace.

Something else that is pretty cool. Rather than have to buy tv shows, etc.. like you have to on iTunes, you are able to record them if you have Vista media center hooked in with your tv and pull them right in the Zune software. This is an awesome feature if you want to take your tv with you on the road.

I don't get the reviews. I guess they are just opinions as mine has been in this post. I hope people will give the Zune 80 a fair shot in the high capacity player market. I think it kicks iPod Classic 80 butt in a side-by-side comparison because of all of the extra hardware features that the Classics don't have. Zune has all of the hardware features of the iPod Classic plus more. At the pace MS is going with the new features in 1 year, Apple should take note. MS has been in the touchscreen business long before Apple with MS Mobile applications. If they want to get in that space I don't think it will take that much time for them to get there with future Zunes. I think the biggest hurdle MS has going against it is users locked in to iTunes. Who knows how well it would do without DRM...

[Jake Le Master Posted Nov 19th 2007 7:13AM]

I don't think people comprehend the coolness and convenience of wireless syncing. I live in the 3rd story of a dorm and I have Zune hooked up in my car and that's where it always stays. Now when I'm screwing around at night, getting more music and everything, I just go out to my car the next morning before class and sync everything RIGHT THERE. It doesn't get any better than that.

And who really cares about Coverflow? Everyone I know with an iPod does not use it...EVER. I never used it with mine either. It's so superfluous. If you go to the "Albums" part of the Zune, the cover art it there right next to the album name. The response time is much better than Coverflow and it's still very pretty.

[(Unverified) Posted Nov 19th 2007 8:30AM]

Personally, I've never liked the XBox but to say it is a failure or not good for the market is completely ridiculous. Without competition a company becomes stagnant and ceases to innovate. Imagine what the industry would be like if we only had the Wii or PS3 to choose from. Traditional gamers would be stuck with the PS3 and Sony likely wouldn't have created the powerhouse machine that they did. Hell, with the PS2 still selling as well as it is I'd argue that the PS3 wouldn't even exist yet.

[(Unverified) Posted Nov 19th 2007 8:33AM]

Sorry, this was meant to follow a post by "Vanillacide" about how horrible it is for Microsoft to enter another market like they did with console video games.

[JayMonster Posted Nov 19th 2007 9:53AM]

I agree with a lot of what was said here, but I couldn't help but laugh at the suggestion of using Windows Media Player for Zune (or integrating it with the OS).

Reviewers all over have trashed the "inconsistant" interface in WMP because of the other PlaysForSure vendors (i.e. Urge). It wasn't "tight enough" compared with iTunes. So they build a single tightly integrated interface, and the complaint becomes, "why didn't they use WMP" Funny.

Part II to this becomes, if they use WMP or "integrate" the Zune service in any way with the OS, the complain becomes, "Microsoft is trying to use its Monopoly hold on the OS market to crush the competition." Anti-Trust lawsuits would almost certainly be filed the same day. Microsoft doesn't have to just surpass Apple, it has to do so in a way that they don't get tagged, "copycat" or "anticompetetive" or "too quirky" and still do so in a way that is fresh enough to be exciting, but "standard" enough that knee-jerk reaction from reviewers isn't "nice but no iPod" This is a tall task, even for Microsoft, especially when Apple doesn't have to play by the same rules.

In the end, the final conclusion is correct, Microsoft has not completely leapfrogged over Apple and the iPod, though I find this to be far less about things such as Cover Flow which while nice on the desktop, only slows down the interface and is an unnecessary strain on battery life for a portable device, and more about comfort and functionality. Things like the Click Wheel while awful, are comfortable to the iPod crowd, Microsoft has made some odd choices and in the process not only failed to give anything for the iPod owner the "must" reason to switch, they also made their own faithful uncomfortable. A poor combination.

[(Unverified) Posted Nov 19th 2007 9:34AM]

Excellent work Ryan. Thanks for all your efforts in putting a nice review.

But...please avoid justifying a mistake by adding the same sentence at the end.
It devalues your efforts to make such a good review. I am sure you spent quite a bit of time in putting this review.

There are few points that you had missed out though (which would have been of no significance, had you added the last line) such as FM radio, Zune subscription, and Zune Originals, because a reviewer is not expected to include just about every aspects of the product (can miss out something inadvertantly).

Again, great work. No doubt about it. And these constant communication between readers and the editors is what keeps Engadget on TOP! i.e. repeated customers.

[(Unverified) Posted Nov 19th 2007 9:37AM]

Please tell me honestly, you own a Zune 80.

[(Unverified) Posted Nov 19th 2007 9:38AM]

Oops. It was reply to "Ivan @ Nov 19th 2007 12:46AM"

I think comments section needs an UPGRADE.

[(Unverified) Posted Nov 19th 2007 7:49PM]

Yes Shisyan,

I do SERIOUSLY own the Zune 80. It's currently connected to my PC and downloading podcasts. I wish I could erase podcasts (that I listened to) from the Zune software list. It's a beautiful player and can really smoke the iPod, if there were a little more functionality. It just seems lame that it can hardly do anything...sure wireless is cool, recording TV from my MCE is cool. But I want an MP3 player with MP3 player functions. One thing I forgot to mention earlier is that my Blackberry Curve is currently my favorite portabel media player. I can upload my DVD movies to it, it plays music, and surfs the internet (although with a bad browser). My guess is that the next version of the Blackberry is going to rock the world....wait and see.

[BillR Posted Nov 19th 2007 9:58AM]

"...surely Microsoft, the world's largest technology company, could make at least make a dent in Apple's armor"

Actually...while they get a lot of pub...Microsoft is definately not the worlds largest technology company...That title belongs to IBM. In terms of revenue, Microsoft is less than half the size of IBM. (44B vs 94B for 2006). Big Blue is still the 800lb gorrila...which is amazing....

[Derbeste Posted Nov 19th 2007 10:43AM]

While I, too, disagree with some things you said in your review (do any two people agree on anything anyway?), I do have to give you major kudos on the review itself.

It's not just good by comparison....it's actually good.

I feel I know more about the Zune after reading this review than I did before. And what else could you possibly ask for? :)

[daveman918 Posted Nov 19th 2007 12:53PM]

MANY EXPERIENCING UPGRADE ISSUES -

Before we get all excited about upgrading our Zunes, be sure to check out this thread at zune support http://forums.zune.net/1/14085/ShowPost.aspx#14085

Looks lime MS blew it with the upgrade. Unfortunately I ended up having the same problem while on a flight. All of a sudden, my music would no longer play a few days after the upgrade. Absolutely lame! No excuse for this!

[(Unverified) Posted Nov 19th 2007 5:45PM]

My favorite part of Zune followers is that they remind me of us Mac followers from the 1990s.

[(Unverified) Posted Nov 19th 2007 9:47PM]

Nope, upgrade was easy, pretty quick and painless. I've read these stories and am utterly amazed that people had problems. I guess I am a simple person...I don't bother to tag, rate or sort my music. iTunes trashed all that mess years ago, and with each 'upgrade' to iTunes, it just got worse, so I stopped trying. Now, I get a Zune, install the 1.x stuff and my library was unchanged. I upgrade to the 2.x stuff and, amazingly, my library was unchanged. All my stuff was synchronized to the device and it just works. Works well too. MS did a great job, at least in my experience.

[(Unverified) Posted Nov 19th 2007 11:09PM]

http://www.YourPS34free.com/index.php?ref=4345725

This offer is for real. Just complete the Stamps.com offer, it's FREE! It's not like other free-sites where you have to complete a lot of offers.

[(Unverified) Posted Nov 21st 2007 12:38AM]

"they're going to have to out-iPod the iPod."

LOL... Yea, that'll happen! MS doesn't innovate, they copy! That's their bread and butter, it's their business model. Can anyone think of even one item that Microsoft produced that was completely new to the market?? Even ONE?? Every piece of software/hardware they produce was created by someone else before MS copied it (or bought them out).

MS can't out-Ipod the Ipod because they don't know how.. they are completely devoid of original thought or ideas. No need to look any further than Vista... M$ spent 5 years and $50 million dollars to essentially wait to see what Apple would do and then copy it almost verbatim!

These two videos show just what I'm talking about Vista didn't rip-off Mac OS X Jobs pokes fun at Vista

[(Unverified) Posted Nov 23rd 2007 1:09AM]

@Ivan,
Ok, two ways to erase podcasts from your Zune...
1. Listen to it on the device. Next time you sync, it will be gone...but only if you have subscribed first AND you have the series settings set so it syncs only partially listened to and not listened to podcasts.
2. Connect the device to your computer. When the Zune software starts, click DEVICE, then PODCASTS. You can then browse the podcasts on your device and delete away.
What else were you looking to do? Did you mean erase directly from the device? I don't think you can do that with most other players, iPod included. At least, I've never seen that feature.

[nausher Posted Nov 23rd 2007 10:51AM]

I wanted the iPod, though I dont want to sound like a malcontent.
Zune, will do. Thank yOu.

[(Unverified) Posted Nov 23rd 2007 10:47PM]

Holy shit...

That brown looks even more like human excretions...

[(Unverified) Posted Nov 25th 2007 11:42AM]

The Zune is the Best!

...just kidding. It's pretty average actually, nothing special really. If it wasn't badged by Microsoft, it would have never made 2nd generation. That's the problem with companies like Microsoft, no matter how shit the product is they release, they simply can't fail.

[(Unverified) Posted Nov 28th 2007 11:57AM]

I need help. I thought I was the typical person in search of a MP3 player, but had no idea that there was so much involved and how sophisticated these things are. I am trying to decide between the IPOD and the ZUNE and all this information is pretty much making the decision harder. I basically want to store all my music, as well as some video.

My questions...
Can you download any music or video to either player or does it have to be off of the itunes or the zune website for it to play?

What are the advantages to the IPOD or ZUNE for someone that just wants to play music and video?

Is it better to use a subscription site to get music and video from? I don't want to have to lose all my music if I decide to change MP3 players at a later date.

What would you suggest I buy...a $80.00 ZUNE 30GB or the newer 80GB? What is the difference? Do the earbuds really make the 80GB worth the extra money? I don't think I could fill either one? Or should I go with the 80GB IPOD?

I want to use this to work out as well, is there any problems with skipping or chances of damage due to running with it?

Last thing is the accessories. Is it easier to set up one over the other for use in the home or the car?

Any information is greatly appreciated. Damn I wish I were younger so that I could have learned about computers in school.

[(Unverified) Posted Dec 8th 2007 9:17PM]

I've read some of these posts and skipped a lot of them. But if you're in the market for a Zune or if you have a Zune and haven't upgraded your Zune software - DON'T DO IT.

I happily and willingly upgraded my software when the upgrade came out and I have regretted it ever since. My music is all over the place. If you have spent any time managing your music library, all of this hard work will go out the window in a matter of minutes.

My current problem involves entire albums, songs and artwork being listed under different artists. For instance:

The Magnetic Fields albums 69 Love Songs. Apparently not only did Magnetic Fields put this out but so did Fatboy Slim, Elvis Costello and In-Grid.

Ani Difranco is now a part of Neutral Milk Hotel.

The artwork for Ghostland Observatory's Paparazzi Lightning is now the cover art for the Laura Viers CD: Carbon Glacier.

Entire albums are split in two with even numbered songs on one and odd numbered songs on the other.

Songs are missing on one album only to be found on a different album by a different artist with different artwork.

This is ALL VERY IRRITATING.

Thankfully this problem I'm experiencing isnt all that devastating. There are others who are experiencing syncing problems, charging problems, and a whole multitude of other issues. Im no techie and am not very computer savvy, but I do know a F*&^ed up product when I see one.

Not to mention the fact that on the Zune Community forums the Zune team has stopped replying to messages. Its as if they could care less about the issue. The "fixes" they have posted do not work, Ive tried a lot of them. Im giving them until Christmas and then Im selling my ZUNE (if anyone will buy it) and going to the dark side.