Late last month, we actually posed the
question of buying a Blu-ray player now (being that the format war is over and all), or waiting things out until prices sink and
Profile 2.0 players flood the market. Aside from the
PlayStation 3 -- which is actually priced fairly reasonably if you were in the hunt for a new console anyway -- it seems as though HD DVD's exit has actually caused Blu-ray player prices to creep back upwards. Granted, this is about as far from surprising as it gets -- after all, it's nothing short of supply and demand working its magic. Still, it wasn't too long ago that we saw Toshiba
actively putting pressure on the Blu camp to reduce prices in order to stay competitive, and now that said pressure has vanished, stickers on the whole have headed north. Ah well, it's not like the consumer didn't ask for this, um,
right?
posted Mar 12th 2008 9:43PM
Can mononolistic and monopolistic be interchanged? Don't they refer to the same thing? I might be wrong, but can someone please clarify that?
are these average prices from the big box stores? or the MSRP? Its hard to believe these players even cost that much. I've seen most Blu Ray players for around the 399.99 mark and slightly lower.
Supply and demand, I'm afraid. Blu-ray players are worth more now.
The early adopters still have a year or so to be fleeced. If you want cheap, get an upconverting DVD player. If you want the latest and greatest, expect to pay a bit more.
Not a thing wrong with that. All the cool tech on this site costs a lot of money to develop.
Unfortunately you would hope that with Sony being able to sell more Blu-Ray players, they could up production and lower price points for consumers. But unfortunately for us, Sony would rather gouge it's customers... They have been doing it for decades, so why not now?
The thing they *should* be looking at is that the more players they sell, the more movie titles they will sell and that is where the REAL money is to be made. Espically seeing that Sony gets licensing fees from studios on every title sold and not to mention that they are themselves a major movie studio.
It's kind of like the reason that they sell PS3 and Xbox's early on for a fiscal loss. They know they are going to more than make it up in the back end.
For me? I'll stick with DVD. At much as i like the way Blu-Ray titles look, the upfront cost of players and not to mention the astronomical costs for media compared to DVD is just way too high.
@RyanTV
I wasn't aware they could spontaneously and instantly create blu ray players out of thin air, right on the retail shelves.
Ramping up production to meet the demand will take time.
@RyanTV
This is nothing like the game console superiority battle, Sony doesn't "sell" movies. Yes, they one Screen Gems, but all those other studios don't profit them.
so they don't make money off of sony picture entertainment, columbia tristar, etc?
because i'm pretty sure sony owns those movie companies, plus a huge back catalog of movies it sells to make $$.
@Ryan TV
Study some economics before you make irrelevant comments. Supply and demand, basic economic theory.
I guess they don't want to sell to many then. We are in a recession and I for one, won't be shelling out big bucks!
Im guessing sony wants to sell some more ps3's.
Alright the LG BH200 Average price is 666 for today. :P I don't feel like saying anything about this post-format war, besides I'm sure everyone below this comment will do it for me. 3...2...1...Fight.
Isn't the BH200 the BD/HDDVD player
;)
jiminy jillickers radioactive man radioactive man, they're up to no good!
when i said this was going to happen when everyone was celebrating the death of HD DVD, everyone ranked me down.
i love saying it: I FUCKING TOLD YOU SO.
at least the price of the PS3 can only go down, right?
Same Here man.. I was with ya.. This is all to make the PS3 look like a better buy to drive console numbers up, seeing games arent doin it.
...And what do you think Toshiba and its posse would have done with HD-DVD player prices if HD-DVD did win?
Exactly.
Sometimes comments get ranked down not for what you say but, how you Fu*kin say it.
@E71 - my argument was that a winner - any winner - would hold a chokehold on the market and would raise prices. maybe you should check things before you try to come off sounding smart. it's clear you're not used to it.
still, it's clear that since sony has another horse in the race with the ps3 (and with all the crushing losses they've taken on that) it would have been more likely that sony would have raised prices to help cover up those losses.
I was saying the exact same thing. Minutes after Warner went blu, sony raised prices on their blu-ray players, while all those BD fanboys were running around saying how prices would come down.
Why the hell would prices come down with ZERO competition? Fucking idiots.
Yeah, cause you're the only one that understands simple economics. You really went out on a limb on that one.
The fact that Sony has been using rebates to price compete should've been a big indicator for people.
You guys just dont get it. The prices will fall, as production on blu-ray players picks up steam.
Right now, with HDDVD gone, demand has increased for blu-ray, before supply can realistically increase. This, of course, creates a shortage... and with shortages, come increased prices. You can bet that with the increased demand, suppliers will start ramping up production and we will soon get back down to reasonable price points.
I'll admit I was wrong, at least for now. I thought that competition would come from competing brand names all selling Blu-Ray, and that would drive prices down. In fact, I still think that will happen. After all, what competition did DVD have?
I still think that the format war hurt consumers more than it helped. It artificially lowered prices, but it also delayed widespread acceptance and bilked some early adopters out of a lot of money (which was a loss for everyone, since Toshiba still lost money). Now that the "war" is over, the prices are moving closer to where they naturally would have been. Hopefully, consumer demand and brand competition will bring the prices back down pretty soon.
yeah... IN 2 YEARS AT LEAST!
You're right, just look at DVD, once VHS was out of the way the prices went sky high! The technology's monopoly isn't the problem. Wait a few months while production gets ramped up and you'll see prices come down.
It was because you forgot to consider how there are many companies producing blu-ray players. If you only said something like "there will be more demand for blu-ray, so price will go up", you wouldn't have been ranked low.
So Sony forced f*ckin Sharp, f*ckin Pioneer, f*ckin Panasonic, f*ckin LG, and f*ckin Samsung to raise their prices?!?!? F*ck that f*ckin Sony!!!!
What an idiot. They're going to start selling players for a profit instead of a loss because they don't have to compete with HD-DVD prices now. BluRay is a standard not a proprietary format you idiot. Why are you high school kids so f*ckin dumb? Oh right, George f*ckin Bush.
Not everyone! I knew that nothing good would come from Sony's high-def dominance.
Your told you so is nothing to celebrate. Of course you were right, but anyone who thinks/thought that if HD DVD won, their prices would remain the same/continue to fall is just as naive/as much of an idiot. Did you see the post on engadget saying that toshiba lost 1 billion dollars subsidizing their loses on their hd dvd players? If you honestly think they would continue that, your crazy. So i would hardly consider toshiba the lesser or two evils here. I'm not a sony/microsoft/apple hater like so many people on this site, so it isn't hard for me to say that all these companies are robber barrons, just a matter of which one you like more.
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/05/a-299-sony-blu-ray-player-but-no-cheap-chinese-models/?ref=technology
Mr. Glasgow expressed hope that price levels wouldn’t collapse the way they did for DVD players. To protect against this, he said the Blu-ray Association, the group that controls the Blu-ray standard, has not licensed it to any manufacturers in China. (Cheap players from China were a large part of the collapse of the DVD player market.)
They are keeping prices high on purpose. It's fact straight from their mouths.
If you look at the price fluctuations before and after the official end of the so-called format war (late February) and take the time to think a bit, you will realize that prices going upward the author claims is total BS and unscientific. And comparing these prices with the MSRP will tell you that the price variations have nothing to do with the "lack of competition", which is an equally ridiculous claim. File this "article" as FUD.
and above it.
Nice to see the reply system still has issues.
lol.
think you mean "monopolistic"
and the fact you listed off three competing companies, and an indication you were too lazy to list more, completely negates your accusation.
I'm not sure what a mononolistic market is, but downloads just don't come close to matching the quality of Blu-Ray or HD-DVD yet.
The original post that I (and Mike and Jimbo) replied to has been deleted, apparently.
Perhaps you don't know what a monopoly is.
Sony doesn't have a monopoly on blu-ray players. Many companies make them. Toshiba will probably be making some eventually. They are very expensive because they are the best mass produced product of their kind.
Downloads? Perhaps you mean illegally torrenting movies. Well, no one cares about you as a customer, so you don't get a vote in the future of electronics. You have to be profitable before companies want your business.
Perhaps you mean some kind of itunes service. That kind of thing will not be possible for most Americans for a long time. It probably won't even seriously compete with blu-ray's successor tech. And for those who can use this stuff, more power to 'em. not like Sony doesn't make even higher profits this way.
Blu-ray isn't seriously meant to displace downloads. They are separate niches to profit from. Content sellers get to make money from both.
anyway, if you really HATE sony and others so much, you must be a real charmer in person. What kind of sick twisted weirdo is that full of anger?
By all means, get a DVD player, which is obviously a smarter buy. You will find that the blu-ray makers also are in the DVD business. Slightly different niches again.
While your comment on the fact that Sony doesn't have a monopoly on Blu-ray production is true, they do have a monopoly on a signifant part of the price: the patent/copyright which drives the royalty payments. If Sony chose to charge a high price for the royalty per player, all the Blu-ray players would increase in price.
think you mean "monopolistic"
and the fact you listed off three competing companies, and an indication you were too lazy to list more, completely negates your accusation.
After HDDVD was chainsawed in half and left for the vultures, the format war ended and people knew which format that they'd be spending their next dime on.
Yes - it is supply and demand that forcing the price up, but I doubt that this will continue very long. Consumer spending is being driven down by oil prices and cost of living increases and I read many reports which show that electronics spending has been hurt by the Bush Economy.
I believe that this will help PS3 sales tremendously since most lay consumers shopping for HD TV's will be coaxed into an HD disk player by their fellow Best Buy, Circuit City scam arti--- I mean, salesmen.
Wait until Americans get the Bush Tax Rebate. I think Blu Ray player sales will jump by 23%.
K.. just like everyone else sayin its supply and demand..
Answer this.. Why hasnt the Wii's price gone up then besides on eBay.. Supply and demand has nothing to do with it.. MRSPs dont flux, only drops if anything..
I'm actually planning on saving my tax refund. I have bills to pay.
HAH! I was freaking RIGHT!
http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/16/toshiba-pulling-the-plug-on-hd-dvd-already/comments/10492575/
Eat me. :O
Double? not quite.
And yet if/when the demand for PS3's jump, the price will not. If anything, it'll drop. How did that happen?
Well, that all depends if supply can meet demand. Case in point, the Nintendo Wii. What is it, like $250 for the console right? Nearly a year and a half later, is it easy to go out and spend $250 and get a Wii? No I think not. Yes, the possibility exists, but likely, one would have to order a bundle package, (like I did). While yes, the bundle package includes additional things, it still artificially increased the price of the console. Furthermore, as I'm sure you know, ebay users spent plenty of money on the Wii, well above the "regular" retail price.
Therefore, if production can not meet demand, then yes, the price of the PS3 will increase due to its scarcity, though maybe not from Sony directly.
"Lack of competition sends..... prices upward?"
Wow, I did not know that! Wait, no, that can't be! Can someone please explain?
Very simple put: Look at oil and gas prices right now. World wide use has gone up but OPEC will not increase the supply. Guess what? Prices continue to go up. If alternative sources of energy are more widespread, the supply of oil increases and thus OPEC charging companies are forced to reduce prices to compete with that alternative source. Of course they can try to cut the supply level (which they've done i the past), but that doesn't change what was already produced and sitting around waiting to be consumed.
Wow I am completely surprised by this turn of events.
wait.
No I'm not.
Blu-Ray you noob.
You crapped the name of Anon.
Well if you want to nitpick it's 'Blu-ray' or 'Blu-ray Disc'. I personally don't care, but if you're gonna make the correction, make it right.
After looking through some of your comments I notice that you nearly shit yourself over people capitalizing iPod wrong so you fully deserve to be nitpicked to hell and back.
Sure is a good thing that Blu-Ray won. I was really upset that prices had come down to reasonable levels. Now that they're back above where they should be, I can rest easy knowing that Sony is gouging customers again.
Wow.....like I didn't know this was coming.....
competition is gone....
and no....Sony vs. Samsung vs. LG vs. X Company isn't competition that will cost prices to drop....(at least not as fast as with Toshiba in the mix)
I'm not surprised. We'll probably see this effect ripple into increased sales for the PS3 for the month of March.
If you look at it closely, they're reaching price equilibrium given the sudden sharp demand for the items. Soon you'll see them on sale. Especially in the summer when consumer demand for electronics typically tapers off.
This same thing happened when VHS was declared the winner.
There is no monopoly. Not when you have several manufacturers producing competing products.
At the most you can call it an oligopoly. But that can't last long if it is because lawyers are always seeking class action lawsuits.
Those who are patting themselves on the back with, "I told ya so" need to go out and take an introductory class in economics.
It's called collusion and rackateering
@ Benjesuit:
Intro class in Econ? This is more complex than that. Broader consumer demand issues in a recession aside, Sony owns the patents on Blu-Ray, so they get whatever they negotiate for each player. Essentially, Sony now controls all aspects of all production through licensure of their intellectual property. They've already said they won't license it to the Chinese, which means you shouldn't look for cheap players, since they come from China.
Also complicating the matter: The studios all shot themselves badly here, because the higher player prices caused by Sony's policy on licensure means fewer people will buy them, which means that fewer Blu_ray discs will sell. That makes the studios decision to move Blu a moot one; HDDVD or Blu-Ray, if it doesn't sell, it's worthless.
Sony's usual greed will translate to the failure of Blu-Ray (no matter who makes the hardware) and a loss to the studios (unless they get on the downloadable bandwagon soon).
It's not just supply and demand, as Sony is controlling the market in different ways.
Sony's done this before, and nearly went bankrupt. You'd think they'd learn.
Anyway, this is hardly Econ 101, but is straightforward when the pieces are put together.
Prices also respond upward when demand exceeds supply. With HD-DVD out of the picture and out of interest, people are demanding Blu-Ray which has caused an increase in demand. I am not suggesting that it has exceeded supply but there is an increase in demand.
Of course, without competition from HD-DVD, Blu-Ray players may increase due to lack of format competition but the real competition will come from manufacturers of the Blu-Ray players. If prices are increases despite demand exceeding supply, it is probably colusion which is illegal.
It wouldn't be the first group of companies that worked together to keep from undercutting each other.
If there was a company that came out with a cheap $100 blu-ray player, then we would see prices come down because price matters most to a lot of average consumers.
And, there is absolutely no way I'm going to buy a BR Player. Does anyone know if Macs get BR Disc support, I should be able to hook them up to a large screen using the DVI and view it in full HD, right?
I mean if Macs, like the MacBook Pro are going to get Blue-Ray drives.
Maybe a plot to sell more PS3's. I dunno. :/
am i the only one still using a DVD player? D:
One RAY to rule them all, One RAY to find them,
One RAY to bring them all and in the darkness bind them...
BlueRAY!
Just get a PS3. It's what Sony intends -- feed the beast!
I totally knew this was going to happen.
No competition = no price war
If there isn't a price war why bother lowering the price?
Until the prices drop and Sony lets the Chinese manufacturers make cheapo players there won't be a mass adoption.... Let alone a good jump in sales.
This is pretty clearly price gouging on the retail end. It seems natural that, with a clear winner and people actually willing to buy that retailers would try to capitalize on this to add to their undoubtedly slim margins. This should be pretty short-lived, I'd think, especially as Blu Ray faces stiffer competition from downloadable media.
lets see, regular blu ray players will be going up in price... sony ps3s will be a constant price. hmmmm do I smell price fixing?
This is not lack of competition, morons. This is greater demand meets equal supply. Come on, didn't you take Econ 101 at least?
calling all blu-ray fanboys that were denying that prices would go up once HD-DVD died, where are you now? probably playing on your $700 iPhone, $1800 keyboard/hard drive/and monitor (aka MBP), and $300 mp3 player that only plays MP3's and does nothing else
So you morons who said this wouldn't happen are now my bitches.
Sweet.
Some of you guys need to take a lesson in critical thinking. The price difference has more to do with seasonal adjustment than any perceived increase in prices. Of course, you won't get better deals as we approach spring than in the heat of the holiday season. Also, in case you been have living in a cave, inflation is on the rise due to the increase cost in oil.
Wake me up when you ACTUALLY SEE A INCREASE IN THE MSRP OF A BLU-RAY PLAYER. Until then, all of this is poor journalism and sour grapes from HD DVD fan boys.
Yep. No thinking here. They're too excited to cry out, "I told ya so! I told ya so! Neener neener."
Come this summer what will they be saying? Probably: "Well yeah the price is dropping because no one wants BluRay. People really wanted HD DVD!"
Give it 6 - 9 months, the prices will plummet as the holiday season heats up. They are just taking advantage of the consumer while they can.
So you think you can get better deals in electronics during the spring than the heat of the holiday shopping season? Name me a Blu-ray player with higher MSRP than last year? Right.
I wish HD-DVD won... God-damnit
We all have seen this movie. To say that there is no competition is stupid. We all know that whatever company gets the player under $200 by next Christmas will win.
There is competition
We all have seen this movie. To say that there is no competition is stupid. We all know that whatever company gets the player under $200 by next Christmas will win.
There is competition
If the price gets too high, people STOP buying.
And there IS competition, it's inside the Blu-ray camp between hardware manufacturers.
What did we all say?! HD-DVD was a better format all around. There isn't even a single sub 200 dollar Blu-Ray player! LET THE PRICE GOUGING BEGIN!
And unfortunately for Mr. Blu-Ray my $39 regular flavor dvd is still playing and looking just fine.
Might Jan prices not still be 'depressed' due to Xmas/Boxing week hangover sales and then the rise be attributable to the US dollar diving like a Spitzer Hooker?
1. Anyone who said 'Sony' - put on your dunce cap and go sit in the corner. Anyone who two neurons to bang together knows Blu-ray is not a Sony spec (estimates are Sony holds only about 30% of the IP in Blu-ray). And Sony doesn't control other vendor's pricing.
2. MSRPs have not been raised. And it is doubtful wholesale prices have been either. In fact, this is almost certainly stock that the retailers already had on hand. So what this is is the *retailers* doing more profit taking. They're just not discounting off the MSRP as steeply, so they've making more margin on the sale.
3. This is a table of *average* prices. So just suppose more vendors started carrying Blu-ray players after the format war ended, and the new sites didn't discount as much? Well, gee, the average price goes up! But that doesn't mean the old low prices are gone. Two sites sell a product, one for $400 and one for $200. The average price is $300. Two more sites start selling it, for $325. Now you're average price is $312.50 - it went up! But you can still buy it for $200.
In other words you can't really conclude anything from this, and you most definitely cannot blame Sony for whatever conclusion you jump to.
It seems to me that something has been missing from all this format discussion. The television!!!! HD players of any type are only relevant if you have a HDTV. This is one reason all the DVD v. VHS comparisons never made sense to me. Those players use the same TV. DVD was obviously better so consumers only had to buy one new device.
Blu-ray players won't really start being in great demand until more people buy HDTVs. Then you may see the prices drop.
I don't own a HDTV yet. I'm saving my pennies for a big one. Then I will have to start a new piggy bank for the Blu-ray...patience!
THANK GOD THE FORMAT WAR IS OVER! Now that HD DVD is gone, all this competitive pricing we've been doing can move to the way-side and we can get back to keeping prices where we want 'em!
Fuck Blu-Ray.
*shrug* The only thing that can get me to buy a Blu-Ray player is for the price to be $99 or less and movies to be right around the price normal DVD movies are now.
That will all go out the window if HD Lord of the Rings comes out... I'll have to have that. :-)
Of course on the internet, no one need check the data.
I thought I would check one of the high marks they are using as Evidence:
I looked at the Sharp BDHP20U listed by TG as having jumped to $440. I checked amazon where it is show a LIST PRICE of $399 and selling price of $350. Only $90 different? Maybe Amazon is an outlier? Dell $329, Every retailer I have heard of was under $400.
The only number higher were listing of something called "storefront"? with a price of $100 more than list??
Anyway even if the graph was correct, it looks like a whole lot of nothing, but to top it, the data itself seems suspect. Have a look for yourself.
Bottom line nothing to see here. Just another attempt to stir up the dead war for TG page hits. You are all buying it hook, line and sinker...
Inflation??? Recession??? I say BS... I haven't seen the price of Pioneer Kuro Plasma's go up nor the price of cars.
New technology??? I say BS (partly) again... The difference isn't like tube tv's vs. Plasmas or LCD's (new screen type) or VHS vs. DVD (new media type). Blu Ray players are just glorified/modified DVD players.
Other than the ps-3 (and even it has serious issues being a complete blu-ray player) paying right around 400 bucks for a player is stupid. To top this off, we are looking at a 2.0 spec that will make current BD players obsolete (except for the flawed (ps-3). In all truth we no longer have a standardized, stable Hi-def disk format available to us. Thanks to the economy, I no longer have the disposable income to justify purchasing a player every 6 months at $400+ a pop. Thank goodness for upverting dvd players. Because of DVD's install base, I don't see movie companies not releasing movies on that format anytime soon. A dvd is a good product where movies are a reasonable 10-20 bucks on average. I may consider a bd player in a few years if its format is finally stablized, the price hits the $100 price point, and I can get a first run movie for around 20 bucks.
Yah I remember some asshat on this board telling me I was full of shit when I said that having a war was good for consumers at least for price and that prices would drop....so how are those everyday low prices on BR....
Meanwhile I'm picking up Matrix Tril for just over $40 on HD DVD.
Wow, great idea. Now that they have won the format war (which is a loss on both sides because a minuscule amount of people were buying players because they didn't want to get screwed in the format war anyways), you raise prices so people still have a reason to not want to adopt your format.
I would laugh if Toshiba starts making dirt cheap blu-ray players and undercuts sony at their own game again.
duhhhhhh Sony is forcing others to keep their prices high so that more PS3s sell, cuz they would be the best bang for the buck
lol
It's not the lack of competition but soaring demand of Blu-Ray type player. This populist's unsophisticated superstitious comments are every where. This is a lemming's statement of false belief system.
People really need to learn about how the Economy works.
I called it!!!!!!! Hah Hah
I cannot even articulate how funny this is. I wish I had a copy of my previous posts speaking about EXACTLY things like this. And all the blu fanboys saying… OH NO.. Prices will DROP when the war is over.
Sony Good for customer. They treat customers actively with contempt. Always have… always will.
YES I know BD is a consortium, but Sony is the major player.
PS – I have a PS3 too.
This is has nothing to do with Sony or any of the other Blu-ray manufacturers. This is at the retail level, perhaps indicating that they are able to get more because of higher demand. If there has been an increase at the wholesale price level it has to do with the lower value of the dollar not because manufacturers are raising prices because they won the format war.
Of course, it's perfectly reasonable for the BDA, after spending all that money to win the format war, is going to turn around and active work to kill their own format by jacking up the prices. Anyone who thinks this is possible is smoking something illegal.
One thing that never gets discussed is the fact that, right now, there is an absolute cap on the number of copies any Blu-ray title can sell, and that's the number of players currently in the wild. If the BDA wants to keep Fox, Disney, Warner and now Universal and Paramount happy, they need to expand the size of the market for Blu-ray discs. The only way to do that is by lowering the prices as fast as is possible and still make the player business profitable. The market for a $400 players is much bigger than the market for a $500 player and the market for $300 players is many times bigger still. Even if Sony or Panasonic were making a lot of bank on each $500 player, they aren't making a lot of money in absolute terms because they can't sell that many players. If they want to sell tens of millions or hundreds of millions of units, the only way for the Blu-ray players to be *hugely* profitable, the prices have to come down.
Thus endeth this lesson in Remedial Economics.
So Blu-Ray wants to fail too, huh?
I'm happy with digital downloads for HD movies, and regular upscaled DVDs for standard-definition fare.
I think I'll sit back and wait for Blu-Ray to either get cheaper, or go away. I'm not paying a premium for a device that only plays HD movies, when I already have a few devices that play HD movies, and do many other things, too. (Xbox 360, TV, Laptop computer, by the way.)