We've had TiVo
firmly on deathwatch since 2005, and although the company's shares have recently surged with the
launch of the TiVo Premiere and another
legal victory over Echostar, things are still looking somewhat bleak: the Q4 numbers are in, and everyone's favorite DVR company just posted a $10.2m loss. Why? For the same reason that's plagued the company for five damn years now: it's hard to sign up new subscribers when the cable company offers a similar good-enough product for less money, especially when TiVo
can't access cable VOD. And let's be brutally honest here: we love TiVo and we're more than excited to get our Premiere review units, but we don't think a
revised interface is going to stem the tide -- almost every feature of the Premiere is available on the TiVo HD, after all. We've
offered up our suggestions on how to re-energize the company in the past -- that new QWERTY remote is a great start -- but until TiVo stops playing ball with the same cable companies that actively try and cut it off at the knees and starts going for the jugular with features and pricing, we don't think things are going to get any better.
posted March 8th 2010 10:13PM
@aasneuro
It's the monthly charge.
Except now you're right. It's too late to save the company by cutting out the monthly fee. If they had done it 5 years ago, there would have been a chance.
Now they're just the company that makes a DVR that nobody has. Name value is trashed even though people use the name as a verb. People don't even consider buying a TiVo. The average consumer doesn't know why, but they figure if nobody they know has one, there must be a good reason not to get one.
@UnixSystemsEngineer ^^THIS^^ Perfectly stated, Unix!
and how the hell do i put a profile pic?!!?!?!
i tried like 5 times already and the dumb server
was like "oh just give us 5 minutes or so and
your pic will be up" but nothing WTH?! D:
Coming from somebody that owns a Series 3 and loves it:
Their crap is just too expensive for the mainstream. The service is overpriced, and the hardware is even worse. The new Premier is $500, plus 10 bucks a month. There are very few people who can justify it. Come on Tivo, 1TB drives are well under $100 at retail.
I'll be bummed if/when they tank, but I think it is a matter of time.
@WilfBrim So... they're losing money but their hardware is overpriced? I don't think you can have both...
The cable company DVR costs something like $500 also, and it doesn't have a 1TB drive. The difference is they rent it to you with no up-front charge at all. Since they're making money off all the services they sell you, they can afford to "loan" you the cost of the box for a few years while you pay it off with your fees. And of course rent out used boxes to new people.
I love my Tivo's but they're in serious trouble. Unless this patent stuff gets them some new deals built into satellite or cable boxes (and not that Tivo on Motorola garbage) I don't see them lasting more than a few more years.
@Fanfoot It makes sense because no one wants to buy a box that costs $500 and then on top of that pay $10 per month...
Personally I have the Directv DVR service and my mom has a Series 3 Tivo DVR, and I greatly prefer the Directv one. I don't care for Tivo's recommendations and if you take that out of the equation I don't see any benefit of paying more for Tivo.
@masivemunkey Agreed. My DirecTV HD DVR gives me the functionality I need at a much lower price. I paid $200 for the HD DVR and the monthly fee is $6.00, plus it records about 150 hours of HD content!
@aubreyq: 150 hours of HD on a what, 320 GB or 500 GB drive? Don't think so. Also, that DirecTV box is partly subsidized by DirecTV - and you don't own it either (no seriously, check the fine print - that's a long term lease, if you cancel service it still belongs to DirecTV).
Is TiVo cheap? No, I can safely say it isn't. However, I still think it's better than just about anything else out there. My Series3 is still going strong, after over 3 years - you can pry it from my cold, dead fingers.
Video on demand either through cable or through the internet is the future. DVR is already a thing of the past in my mind.
I don't want to schedule recordings and hope that it goes right, I want to press a button and get everything I want instantly.
My Apple TV is good enough for now, though deals with TV studios need to get better for any on-demand vendor to really shine.
I'm sure it isn't biting into them much, But I sure enjoy the windows media center PC I bought for $250. Control the whole mess through the Xbox 360. No recurring charges either.
Or just forget about TiVo and cable DVRs, and their silly overpriced fees, and go with Windows Media Center- already the best interface out there, probably already on your computer, and soon too have a four-tuner CableCard tuner...
@dannyry
Tivo is far, far superior to cable companies' offerings. Both in performance and features. However, as Engadget mentioned, the able companies' offerings are cheap and, for most people, 'good enough'.
All these DVRs are mostly useless until they support VOD across the board. Here on Verizon, Epix-HD offers every single movie they carry for free on VOD with a subscription. Why would I want to bother to pay even more for a Tivo subscription and more harddrive space when it's all there for me already?
@Wag: Well, if you like a DVR that works, you might want to consider it. I've not heard anything positive about Verizon's FiOS DVR. The software is slightly better than what most cablecos use, but it's still too slow, and the boxes are too flaky. This seems to be a theme across most provider boxes.
@tonicboy yeah. i could reason with that. i guess engadget is trying to get that tivo stock to its lowest point by leaving that out.
@tonicboy My COX DVR records the shows I want it to record. What more do I need?
Everyone constantly bashes the cable DVRs but with such a basic device, there is a point of diminishing returns. There's only so much it's expected to do no matter how nice the UI is. I look in the guide or search for a show and hit record. It asks if I want to record a series, etc. I can chose all the options about reruns, channel, HD only versions etc.
I've had this Moto DVR since I moved here in 2007 and I've never needed anything more.
Now the moment they come out with some Cable Card tuners, I'm going exclusive WMC with my 4 XBox extenders.
Which is worse:
1. Engadget parading the fact that it predicted Tivo's death in 2005, and it's 2010 but Tivo's still alive;
2. Engadget is talking deathwatch of Tivo's $10.2 million loss, but hasn't issued a deathwatch for Palm, that had an operating loss in Q2-2010 (ended Nov 30, 2009) of $134 million.
Tivo needs:
1. For Apple to buy it.
2. For Apple to bring its stores to Tivo and keep the Amazon and Netflix deals, plus its own (That would be the nice way to do it anyway)
3. For Apple to hop on the HDTV wireless boat and turn Tivo into the first DVR able to drive multiple channels to different TVs. The first DVR to do this will be hugely popular, it cuts out buying one DVR per TV.
4. Partnership with a huge US cable TV company to make Tivo compatible with their network.
5. To eliminate the monthly service charge.
6. To lobby hard for a CableCard alternative or greater CableCard adoption.
7. An OS X app to remote control the DVR from iPhone / Touch
8. Allow users to swap the existing HDD for their own, with at least two internal bays.
@gfair
4. They are partnered with Comcast but Comcast is slow to roll the Comcast Tivo out to all markets since some use the Motorola box while others use the Scientific Atlanta boxes.
5. You can eliminate the monthly fee with a lifetime subscription
7. There are apps for controlling your Tivo on the iphone already/even use it as a remote.
@TMS
4. That's the point of Apple pushing the adoption - if Tivo can't get results, send in Jobs.
5. The point is specifically to eliminate the fee, not pay a large lump sum up front, to reduce TCO and monthly cost and the associated stigma of paying for more that holds people back from buying a Tivo versus an el-cheapo PVR.
7. Good to know, thank you.
Wooo...engadget editors are thin skinned these days.
Engadget's a little sensitive on criticism these days.
Curious that they would advertise a deathwatch that has gone on since 2005, and reiterate it on a $10.2 million quarterly loss, but seemingly look the other way at Palm's $134 million loss last quarter and a smaller market capitalization.
I guess if you call a deathwatch, and a company dies after 15 years, you can claim you were right all along, can't you?
"when the cable company offers a similar good-enough product for less money"
WRONG: cable dvr aren't even close to good-enough and less yeah right do the math and you will see you pay more in the long run for a sub par dvr.
And the reason Tivo loses subscribers is because most people aren't savvy enough to distinguish between a Tivo and the box they call Tivo.
Also they aren't smart enough to set up a box by themselves so what ever the cable company guys brings thats what they will use.
and with the crap they announced last week its only bound to get worse.
That qwerty remote is decent but .. I am still waiting for a decent voice enabled multi-touch capable touchscreen remote (notice I said decent). Anyway .. are there bluetooth or other low power tech enabled TVs ? I would like to have a home gadget/devices remote app on my phone. Maybe one where the TV transmits channel previews to the phone app in addition to the usual channel changing and other data entry stuff advanced remotes do.
Isn't it much easy to be able to change channels by pressing a button on a touch remote and saying "TV, ESPN" to change channels. Hm or without having to say TV since the remote should know ESPN is only possibly and most likely a TV channel?
@JS:
I'd rather push a button and not have to talk to my TV
what ever happened to the directv tivo dvr that was due this year? I know that if and when it does come out im getting one on the spot..
@SNOOP97DAWG Thats what I was wondering...
With the Virgin Media box software deal Tivo seems to be making some progress though? If they can get the service for one of the UK's biggest pay TV companies right then they'll attract more cable/satellite companies to provide Tivo services.
One of the problems with TiVo (are you listening TiVo?) is that they don't even seem to be interesting in keeping their current customers. Take my situation. I've purchased two TiVo DVRs over the last few years and after using my newest one for a year I let the monthly subscription lapse. Well, just recently I wanted to restore my subscription on that single unit and they won't do that unless I renew for an entire year. Problem is, because of my life situation, I won't be able to use this TiVo for a full year. Thus, rather than getting me back on a month-to-month subscription they just give me the big fat one and thus are losing money that they could get from me for the next several months.
That's not the only issue I have about their business practices, but the above seems so silly since they are just hurting themselves with that policy.
Good time to buy Tivo Stock! Sure wish I bought into Apple a couple of years ago when it was back down to $13.
@malexandria1 By "a couple of years ago" you apparently mean 2004, which was the last time AAPL was at $13. That's like six years ago by my count. Jeez, does nobody check anything before they post? This is the internet after all. You don't have to remember anything yourself...
@Fanfoot Of course I didn't mean two years ago. Jeez! Get a freaking life! Nitpicking over the word "couple" is petty and ridiculous.
My HTPC (dusted off an old Sempron 3200 box) with a dual tuner card and GBPVR on the software side works "good enough" for me since I just have basic cable. I'd probably run WMC but I'm too cheap/lazy to upgrade from XP Home unless I have to.
I apologize for my vulgarity.
Then theres people like me who would love to have a Tivo, but have U-verse and are stuck with the DVR ATT gives me.
I was hoping for really good news when they were having their big announcement. But I didn’t get the one really slick feature I wanted, multi-room viewing. Oh and of course the lower fee. I can’t see paying that much up front or monthly. Too bad I wanted to go back to Tivo.
I love Tivo but I ain't buying one. I'll stick to my FIOS DVR.
Tivo is too complicated. Needs an Ethernet cable near each TV and I have to buy the equipment up front AND pay a monthly service charge (WTF?).
Why didn't Tivo ever hire some executives from Verizon Wireless of the other wireless companies and learn how to use an equipment subsidization model? Sign people to a 2 year contract, offer them the equipment free or cheap, and charge a decent monthly fee. Everyone wins.
I would gladly pay for TiVo service and become a subscriber again if they would just release a unit that works with DirecTV HD. I've had just about every provider out there, and TiVo has the best software out of any of them.
Not surprised...Why didn't TiVo ever get mixed in with VoD stuff? Why doesn't TiVo try and tackle something new, like for instance teaming up with the MPAA and try to force the FCC to release the 1st run movies directly to the public, as in the day of! Anyways got any views on this?
Deathwatch... Tivo could lose 40 million a year for quite a few years... they've got plenty of cash in the bank and some lawsuits that should refill those coffers.
I love my TiVo, but I see no compelling reason to upgrade to the Premiere.
Now, if they had tossed a slim-line Blu-Ray player into the Premiere, I've been begging them to take my money. But why should should I be eager to upgrade my DVD player AND my TiVo?
I like my TiVo because it's simple. I want it all in one box. No Blu-Ray, no deal!
Its such irony that TiVo, a company which was so innovative when it started, totally missed the boat on the next wave of media consumption. TiVo should have been offering Netflix, Hulu, Youtube, etc on all its boxes before anyone else did. Instead they went into a reactionary post. I mean, here was a company which had its internet connected boxes on MILLIONS of tv's and failed to do anything with internet video until it was too late.
I mean, shouldn't a product like Boxee have been obvious to Tivo? Shouldn't they have done that? They obviously got lazy, and quit innovating. I mean, these guys could have been iTunes, but they were too small-minded to see their business as a content delivery system rather than just a plain DVR.
Its a good product though, and the best DVR box you can buy (though windows media center beats it, if that counts).
@brillow Netflix and Youtube are available on the Tivo HD/XL and premiere... I think the other series 3 boxes support it too. I don't think series 2 does.
Just wanted to point out that today COMCAST put out version two of their iPhone application which has a nice little guide to allow you to schedule recordings on your Comcast DVR. Now Tivo still doesn't have an iPhone application. They have a mobile web site. With no guide. And after you schedule something you have to wait for an email a few hours later letting you know whether you were successful or not.
Tivo, seriously, if you can't even keep up with Comcast, a giant cable operator famous for moving as slow as molasses, then something is horribly horribly wrong.
Adding to the suggestions, here's another one we hear nothing about from anyone on TV:
9. Standard Definition upscaling! That's right... it may be 480i but imagine if it could be upscaled? Just like a DVD! That would be a huge feature for a DVR.
Tivo may not be cost competitive with Cable DVR fees as some readers point out, and I certainly feel Tivo is overpriced for what it is, but I will continue to buy them simply for the fact that the interface is SO MUCH BETTER than cable DVRs which are like 1970 computing in comparison. Tivo really seems not to listen to its customers innovation suggestions very much, or at least if it does it doesn't show it. Maybe we all don't know the nuances of licensing or what not for new features ??but certainly the suggestions in these comment board are excellent and should have been part of Tivo already. The Premier is not that great of an improvement at all. A blue ray drive, full internet use, incorporated Roxio Toast software etc...basic ideas that would make Tivo supremely useful and reduce the grumbling of us die hard fans, yet are no where to be found. In Tivo my excess money seems only to pay for the pretty good UI, sadly nothing else.
The source link is subscribe-only, shouldn't you warn us about it? And I don't know what you mean by Tivo playing ball with cable companies.