HD 101: 3D FAQ
By Ben Drawbaugh 
posted April 23rd 2010 12:59PM
posted April 23rd 2010 12:59PM
Why are there two display formats? Is this a format war?
No, it isn't a format war as both formats will display the same content. In active shutter glasses systems the glasses are more expensive where with circular polarized all the cost is in the display.
Are one brand of Active Shutter glasses compatible with all TVs?
No, shutter glasses aren't compatible but just like remotes, there are universal ones.How are the Active Shutters glasses powered?
Some glasses have internal batteries and come with chargers, others use small watch-type batteries.
Do active shutter glasses work with different 3D content formats?
Yes, the glasses are specific to TV, not the source.
What are the different 3D content formats?
Just like HD has different resolutions, 3D has different formats. There is frame compatible that is backwards compatible with set-top boxes, then there is the new MVC AVC codec that requires new equipment but it does double the resolution. It is the left image plus the difference for the right.
Isn't frame compatible half the resolution of HD?
No, it's actually the exact same resolution as HD. Sure it would be better if the resolution was doubled, but it still isn't less resolution than HD.
Who's using what formats?
Broadcast mediums like satellite and cable are using frame compatible since it works with existing set-top boxes. Blu-ray is using MVC and requires a new Blu-ray player.
What resolution is 3D in?
Both 3D formats support 1080p and 720p. Blu-ray is 1080p 24 per eye or 720p 60 per eye. 3D broadcast is 1080i 30 per eye or 720p 60 per eye.
Is HDMI 1.4a required for 3D?
No, in fact many HDMI 1.3 cables, switches and other equipment will work with multiple 3D formats, but none are guaranteed to work. HDMI 1.4a equipment is guaranteed to work with most 3D formats.
So if I buy a new 3DTV, what else do I need to watch 3D via cable or satellite?
Since most existing set-tops support frame compatible 3D, you won't need anything else. But until your box gets a firmware update that'll make it 3D aware, you'll need to manually select the format.
How much bandwidth does 3D need?
Frame compatible 3D uses the same as HD, but DirecTV says it's more efficient to compress. 3D Blu-ray uses about 50 percent more throughput with a higher maximum bit rate of 60Mbps.
Who cares about 3D, I want 1080p at 60 fps.
We all do and in fact cable and satellite plan on delivering 1080p60 per eye eventually, but it'll require a new set-top box -- no word on which codec will be used, but you'll be able to watch it in 2D too.
Will a 3D channel require a full 6Mhz QAM channel?
No, not at all. Even the ultimate 1080p/60 per eye would easily fit into half a QAM channel. You see since the set-top needs upgraded anyways, it'll be upgraded to one that supports some variation of H.264, which is much more efficient than MPEG2 that's used today.
How will 24p 3D be displayed on a 240hz HDTV?
Sony 3DTVs display 24p 3D at 120hz per eye, so each frame will be shown 5 times.
Panasonic 3DTVs will display 24p 3D at 48hz per eye, so each frame will be shown 2 times.
Are there even any 3D channels?
Other than a few 3D specials there aren't any channels live yet, ESPN will launch its 3D channel this Summer on DirecTV -- no one else has announced carriage yet. DirecTV also plans to launch a few 3D channels this Summer including a PPV channel and a variety channel. All will use the frame compatible 3D format but will probably be different resolutions (ESPN is expected to be 720p60, might be some 1080p24 PPV movies too).
So... sports and movies, is that it?
No, Discovery and Sony are working to launch a 3D channel next year that might be called 3D.net.
When are we going to start seeing 3D Blu-ray Discs for sale?
No firm dates yet, but Blu-ray movies should start shipping this Summer, in the meantime demo material comes with Samsung and Panasonic's 3D kits.
Do 3DTVs cost a lot more than 2DTVs?
No, not really. In fact the first generation 3DTVs from Samsung and Panasonic are actually cheaper than their comparable-older 2D versions.
Older TVs can't be upgraded to play 3D. Even the latest 120Hz displays can't accept the signal and there's no IR emitter to sync the glasses. |
Well you can do whatever you want, but while the glasses do block light they don't really work as sunglasses.
If they block light, does that mean the TV is dimmer?
Kind of, displays actually automatically crank up the brightness to compensate for the dimming of the glasses, but not as much as they dim. The good news is that the glasses do improve the display's perceived black levels.
Can I upgrade the firmware in my Blu-ray player to support 3D?
Only the PS3 is getting an update, most older hardware can't be updated to support the new MVC version of AVC that is used to encode 3D.
Can I watch 2D on a 3DTV?
Yes of course, you don't have to watch 3D all the time. The newer HDTVs have better 2D performance as well and you can even watch 3D content in 2D if you want.
Can I watch this new 3D content on the 120Hz HDTV I just bought?
No, older TVs can't / won't be upgraded to be 3D compatible. Even the latest 120Hz displays can't accept the signal and there is no IR emitter to sync the glasses.
So what my Mitsubishi or Samsung DLP has been doing 3D for while, so can I just pick up a 3D Blu-ray player and enjoy?
Nope, DLPs use the checkerboard 3D format which needs a converter, but Mitsubishi does have one coming for an estimated $100. In addition some 3D Blu-ray players like the Panasonic 3DT-300 will output checkerboard 3D -- thanks snickering hound.
Can I watch 3D on my computer?
Yes, all you need is a display that'll accept 120hz input and an nVidia 3D vision kit. It comes with 3D playback software and there are updates for the Blu-ray PC software to make them 3D compatible.
Q: Can I see 3D without a computer and goggles?
A: Yes, all you need to do is just look around you - because you have 2 eyes and a frontal processing lobe, your brain automagically converts the 2 separate images into 1 single image with depth perception.
@buoy : 3D sounds cool and all, but I'm going to hate the day when everything is in 3D. Turning on a TV and being unable to see it without 3D will be a real pain.
@buoy
More or less, our lateral geniculate nuclei separate the info to our occipital lobe through the optic radiations. There it is relayed to the parietal for processing. Our frontal lobe doesn't actaully process it, just observes what we see after it's been processed. But yeah haha. Just fucking with ya btw. It really doesn't matter.
They sure gave a lot of nos when it came to "Can I use this without buying something new/expensive?"
@buoy
Q: Can people with one eye see 3D ?
A: No, optical implants are experimental and not available to the average consumer. Problems with interfacing to the optic nerve and brain are delaying rollout.
@blenderman345
That day will never come. You can watch any 3D content in 2D on your 3DTV. Just turn the 3D off.
@BenD One of the reason why it may be hard to shift from hdtv to 3dtv is because of the price. Other than that, could be the lack of movies / channel supporting it. I think there's a lot of improvement here, if we'll wait. Reactions.. http://j.mp/3d-tv-for-you
@buoy
sorry buddy, but it is the occipital lobe that does vision and visual processing
@blenderman345 you know people were worried about this thing called "color" when it was first introduced to TVs too, especially when things like "The Wizard of Oz" came out and was just washed out in parts, saturated in others. And by some miracle, the technology got better over time...
You don't have to worry, this will only be the only option once that "People still have 2D TVs?" rhetorical question has reared it's pretty little face. We should look forward to such a day.
@juanvaldez
...And to think, even to this day (50 years AFTER the wizard of oz), they still haven't perfected color on TV.
*Hence Sharp coming out with that extra yellow pixel, or not being able to display true blacks on HDTVs.
...I probably won't live long enough to see manufacturers get 3d right.
So I can use 3D glasses as sun glasses?
if I am going to spend $150 on tinted glasses I better get my moneys worth!!!
@Mentat
3D cannot become ubiquitous when it requires glasses. Period.
And as long as it's an entertainment bonus that is not becoming ubiquitous any time soon, it's a paradigm that's irrelevant to me.
Q: Can I get a Siezure from 3DTV?
A: YES
Q: Can I get other life changing medical problems from watcing 3DTV?
A: YES...
Q: should I wait until Engadget Nerds go blind before buying one?
A:Yes
Remember the old NES warnings?
3DTV has a buttload more!
Consumers are so stupid.
@AppleDrank Where are you getting your health warnings from?
@AppleDrank
Seriously, get lost you snarky loser.
@AppleDrank
because the old NES was just so bad for you...
@AppleDrank Just so you know, you're also a consumer. People who don't understand what they're saying are so stupid.
@Center Samsung released a bunch of health warnings within the past month:
http://www.techwatch.co.uk/2010/04/15/samsung-issue-3d-health-warning/
Summarized:
Don't be pregnant, don't be epileptic. My favorites though: don't be drunk, don't be under the influence of drugs (how am I supposed to fully enjoy 3D Samsung!) and don't have a family history of stroke (US, u=$^@*ed).
24 frames per eye!!?!
What framerate are 3d movies in the theater? If I went to see the Avatar in 3D, then bought the blu-ray disk in 3d, would I see a noticeable difference in framerate?
@mrjaggs : Probably 24fps, same as other movies.
@mrjaggs
3D at the theater is also 24p but shown at 144 frames per second, so each frame is shown 3 times a second.
@BenD Man I wish our theatre was that nice, I keep seeing the previous frame in faster moving scenes, doesn't happen at home but ya It sucks. Although I'm also the guy whi can see regular tv's refresh when a scene changes...
3D TV will be doom once if someone come out TV that can displlay 3D without glasses with large software support.
Consider 2/3 of American sometime of their live wear glasses is very unlikely they like to wear another paid of glasses to watch 3D.
@techlord
Yeah, I own contacts but I only wear them like every other day on average. Lots of people wear glasses and either can't or don't want to wear contacts. I can't see myself or many other people wanting to put 3D glasses on over their regular glasses.
For me, if I know I'm going to see a 3D movie or if I need to wear sunglasses/goggles/etc I'll just put my contacts in for the day, but not everyone can do this.
@techlord:
Going to a theater and seeing a 3D movie is one thing. I know I'm going to a 3D movie, I have my contacts in, and that's that.
But how many times do I walk into a room with a TV on only to watch it for a few minutes? How many times do I come home and just want to relax, lay on my side, or do some work while watching TV? 3D isn't going to work in these instances. For these reasons, 3D with glasses will never work, and I will never allow it into my home.
I know there's technical limitations with glasses-free 3D, but that's why research and development exists. Get this fake 3D out of here. The only people I see pushing for 3D right now are those who have to have the latest and greatest. The majority of people don't care about 3D in the home and they don't want to buy another TV.
@Jordan thats why you turn the 3d off all the time except when you want to watch a movie or the game. it takes you 2 more minutes to put your lenses on while you are making popcorn and then you are good to go. If it is a seamless process to switch on or off 3d, i dont see anything bad about 3d tv.
Isn't frame compatible half the resolution of HD?
No, it's actually the exact same resolution as HD. Sure it would be better if the resolution was doubled, but it still isn't less resolution than HD.
Same resolution, but each eye sees half the frame rate.
With glasses-free (parallax barrier) tech, both images are displayed simultaneously, so you get full frame rate but half the resolution.
@raimondious
That is incorect, the frame rate is the same as 2D but the resolution of frame compatible side by side 3D is half per eye.
@BenD Right, maybe I wasn't clear — With frame compatible, you get 1/2 the frame rate per eye (because it will display at the same fps, but be ordered L R L R...), but each frame is full resolution.
With parallax-barrier, the 2 views are shown simultaneously, 1/2 the pixels show L, 1/2 show R. 2 images spliced together in columns. For the aspect ratio to remain the same, each view has every other column removed, used to show the other eye's view (similar to interlacing).
@BenD
I am not convinced this is true, I think each frame is 1/2 the resolution.
Here is why: For 720p resolution how can you squeeze two full 1280x720 frames into a single 1280x720 frame? It's not possible.
The only explanation I can images would be that the final 3D frame (the one on the right in the purple/red examples) is a composite. Half of it is made from the first image on left and the other half is from the second image on the left. If you know please explain.
@raimondious
With frame compatible side by side, each frame is split in two (just look at the Masters image). So you are still receiving 30 1080i frames per second, that are played back at 120 frame per second. But each eye only sees half the resolution per frame.
@nlflint
Right, the total resolution is the same, so since the number of images you are seeing is doubling, the resolution of those images is cut in half.
But this doesn't mean the resolution is reduced, just that it is displayed differently.
Bottom line is most who saw the side by side 3D demo of DirecTV material walked away wondering why all DirecTV's 3D didn't look that good. Search online for reviews, you'll see most were impressed and I haven't found one where someone complained about a lack of detail.
If you want a good 3DTV at a reasonable price, go DLP:
1) 60" DLP (Mitsubishi WD-60C9 60-Inch 1080p Flat panel DLP, $999 on Amazon)
2) 3DC-1000 adapter ($100 when it's released in a month or two)
3) 3D shutter glasses ($100 per pair, but expected to go down in price as more companies make them)
$1,200 for a 60" 3DTV with 1 pair of shutter glasses, which is about half the price of a 55" Samsung 3DTV by itself.
@Center You could also look at the RealD converters if you really need it now.
http://www.reald.com/Content/POD-Seq-Page-Flip.aspx
http://www.reald.com/Content/POD-Side-By-Side-Interlace.aspx
@Center Will any DLP TV be able to use the box that converts to 3D
@jimtubbs All 2008 and newer model DLP's (and some select 2007) are 3D ready. So if you buy a new 2009 DLP TV (or the 2010 DLP's coming out soon), then they will be 3D ready.
Head over to AVSForum. I've learned alot about DLP's and 3D just from reading their forums.
@Center You can get a 65 (+5 inches) inch DLP Mitsu WD-65C9 for $929 shipped right now. 4/24/2010
or get the 3d ready 73 inch Mitsubishi DLP for $1231 from Dell.
What about technologies like Infitec or autostereo? Sure, everyone wants TV's without glasses, but everyone seems to ignore physics when it comes to what they think autostereo should be. It just won't look that great, especially on larger displays, and you have to be in one specific spot.
I've been burned too many times as an early adopter. Not this time 3D, not this time!
What about those of us using a CableCard / 7MC setup to watch TV? Any word on if / how we could get 3D working?
@abfleis
Like most stbs, frame compatible 3D works on HTPCs.
@BenD
So since a standard STB requires a firmware update to pick up 3D, would there be a similar update required for 7MC? And then I assume I'd have to pick up an nVidia card with their 3D kit to make it work?
Thanks!
@abfleis
No the firmware update of set-tops is so the box can tell the TV what format is coming down the wire. You can still watch 3D without an update, you just have to set the TV to side by side manually. With an update it'll run automatically.
If you want to watch 3D in Media Center on a 3DTV, all you need is a 3DTV and the remote to tell the TV it is receiving side by side 3D.
I'm not sure if the nVidia 3D Vision will work with Media Center, or if you'd have to use the included 3D playback software to watch the 3D.
PS3 IN 3D... W0OT
@F4WMR
PS3D?
And I'm waiting for that adapter for my 73" Mitsubishi so I can watch 3D on my TV and BD using my PS3!
Is 3D a good investment or just a gimmick that will fade away?
@krunal126 The latter.
Why do I get a headache when I watch 3D?
Because in real life, your eyes don't see in 3D past about 20 feet.
What reasonable explanation can be made to justify buying this?
Doesn't feel like the jump from SD to HD. Almost like they couldn't think of anywhere else to go but 3D.