HD 101: 3D FAQ
By Ben Drawbaugh 
posted April 23rd 2010 12:59PM
posted April 23rd 2010 12:59PM
Why are there two display formats? Is this a format war?
No, it isn't a format war as both formats will display the same content. In active shutter glasses systems the glasses are more expensive where with circular polarized all the cost is in the display.
Are one brand of Active Shutter glasses compatible with all TVs?
No, shutter glasses aren't compatible but just like remotes, there are universal ones.How are the Active Shutters glasses powered?
Some glasses have internal batteries and come with chargers, others use small watch-type batteries.
Do active shutter glasses work with different 3D content formats?
Yes, the glasses are specific to TV, not the source.
What are the different 3D content formats?
Just like HD has different resolutions, 3D has different formats. There is frame compatible that is backwards compatible with set-top boxes, then there is the new MVC AVC codec that requires new equipment but it does double the resolution. It is the left image plus the difference for the right.
Isn't frame compatible half the resolution of HD?
No, it's actually the exact same resolution as HD. Sure it would be better if the resolution was doubled, but it still isn't less resolution than HD.
Who's using what formats?
Broadcast mediums like satellite and cable are using frame compatible since it works with existing set-top boxes. Blu-ray is using MVC and requires a new Blu-ray player.
What resolution is 3D in?
Both 3D formats support 1080p and 720p. Blu-ray is 1080p 24 per eye or 720p 60 per eye. 3D broadcast is 1080i 30 per eye or 720p 60 per eye.
Is HDMI 1.4a required for 3D?
No, in fact many HDMI 1.3 cables, switches and other equipment will work with multiple 3D formats, but none are guaranteed to work. HDMI 1.4a equipment is guaranteed to work with most 3D formats.
So if I buy a new 3DTV, what else do I need to watch 3D via cable or satellite?
Since most existing set-tops support frame compatible 3D, you won't need anything else. But until your box gets a firmware update that'll make it 3D aware, you'll need to manually select the format.
How much bandwidth does 3D need?
Frame compatible 3D uses the same as HD, but DirecTV says it's more efficient to compress. 3D Blu-ray uses about 50 percent more throughput with a higher maximum bit rate of 60Mbps.
Who cares about 3D, I want 1080p at 60 fps.
We all do and in fact cable and satellite plan on delivering 1080p60 per eye eventually, but it'll require a new set-top box -- no word on which codec will be used, but you'll be able to watch it in 2D too.
Will a 3D channel require a full 6Mhz QAM channel?
No, not at all. Even the ultimate 1080p/60 per eye would easily fit into half a QAM channel. You see since the set-top needs upgraded anyways, it'll be upgraded to one that supports some variation of H.264, which is much more efficient than MPEG2 that's used today.
How will 24p 3D be displayed on a 240hz HDTV?
Sony 3DTVs display 24p 3D at 120hz per eye, so each frame will be shown 5 times.
Panasonic 3DTVs will display 24p 3D at 48hz per eye, so each frame will be shown 2 times.
Are there even any 3D channels?
Other than a few 3D specials there aren't any channels live yet, ESPN will launch its 3D channel this Summer on DirecTV -- no one else has announced carriage yet. DirecTV also plans to launch a few 3D channels this Summer including a PPV channel and a variety channel. All will use the frame compatible 3D format but will probably be different resolutions (ESPN is expected to be 720p60, might be some 1080p24 PPV movies too).
So... sports and movies, is that it?
No, Discovery and Sony are working to launch a 3D channel next year that might be called 3D.net.
When are we going to start seeing 3D Blu-ray Discs for sale?
No firm dates yet, but Blu-ray movies should start shipping this Summer, in the meantime demo material comes with Samsung and Panasonic's 3D kits.
Do 3DTVs cost a lot more than 2DTVs?
No, not really. In fact the first generation 3DTVs from Samsung and Panasonic are actually cheaper than their comparable-older 2D versions.
Older TVs can't be upgraded to play 3D. Even the latest 120Hz displays can't accept the signal and there's no IR emitter to sync the glasses. |
Well you can do whatever you want, but while the glasses do block light they don't really work as sunglasses.
If they block light, does that mean the TV is dimmer?
Kind of, displays actually automatically crank up the brightness to compensate for the dimming of the glasses, but not as much as they dim. The good news is that the glasses do improve the display's perceived black levels.
Can I upgrade the firmware in my Blu-ray player to support 3D?
Only the PS3 is getting an update, most older hardware can't be updated to support the new MVC version of AVC that is used to encode 3D.
Can I watch 2D on a 3DTV?
Yes of course, you don't have to watch 3D all the time. The newer HDTVs have better 2D performance as well and you can even watch 3D content in 2D if you want.
Can I watch this new 3D content on the 120Hz HDTV I just bought?
No, older TVs can't / won't be upgraded to be 3D compatible. Even the latest 120Hz displays can't accept the signal and there is no IR emitter to sync the glasses.
So what my Mitsubishi or Samsung DLP has been doing 3D for while, so can I just pick up a 3D Blu-ray player and enjoy?
Nope, DLPs use the checkerboard 3D format which needs a converter, but Mitsubishi does have one coming for an estimated $100. In addition some 3D Blu-ray players like the Panasonic 3DT-300 will output checkerboard 3D -- thanks snickering hound.
Can I watch 3D on my computer?
Yes, all you need is a display that'll accept 120hz input and an nVidia 3D vision kit. It comes with 3D playback software and there are updates for the Blu-ray PC software to make them 3D compatible.
I've seen/heard of tvs that can do 3D without glasses, though very rarely. How is it that they are doing this?
Also, why are most companies manufacturing and focusing on tvs that require battery operated glasses instead of the polarized glasses used at the theater?
On a completely different note, I've tried updating my avatar picture on this site, but it never takes. Is there some trick to getting it to work?
That's deceiving to say that its the 'it's actually the exact same resolution as HD' or that '3D broadcast is 1080i 30 per eye or 720p 60 per eye'.
3D broadcast is 1080i30 or 720p60 for BOTH eyes, not per eye. You lose half the horizontal resolution with the side-by-side transmission of 3D. Your "exact same resolution as HD" is only half of your HD resolution per eye.
What makes the problem worse when changing from the side-by-side broadcast to an every-other-line LCD 3D setup, you also lose half your vertical resolution as well. This is because generally your LCD will deinterlace the 1080i and show you a progressive picture. Now each eye is only seeing 540 lines. (though this is less offensive because the lines you are losing are technically interpolated values).
Darn you astigmatism!
http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPERMANPDF/DMPBDT300-MUL.PDF
page 23 of the user manual for the Panasonic DMP-BDT300/350 also says the Panasonic player has checkerboard output.
The last question there just forget that you need one hell of a GeForce Card as well to play 3D Blu-Ray movies on your PC.
I just had to kick my GeForce 9300 and install a GeForce GT 240 for that same reason!!!
So people that bought 240hz tvs have no way of watching 3D at all? Hell, if you can connect the tv to a pc then the nVidia 3D vision kit can be used, so how come there is no bluray player in the market that has the ir emitter port, if that's all that's missing?! This pisses me off!!!
@Zepaly
The nVidia 3D Vision kit can't be used because 240hz HDTVs only accept a 60hz signal. The nVidia kit requires 120hz input.
So all the 120hz tvs for a few years ONLY do 120hz with a 60hz input and frame interpolation? That f*cking stupid if its the case... I've been telling my buddy with a 120hz sammy ToC to "wait and see" I just don't see why you couldn't sync glasses with the ps3 provided they could do 120hz output/input to the tv... this is how I figured it would work before anyone announced 3d tv's... any clarification on my first question?
3D is gay, get out.
@Mr Plow
Out as in out of my life. I already see the confusion starting.
Legit question. Do I need a 3D tv to play the new 3D playstation3 games?
This whole 3D thing is a huge crock of shit. Sega had 3d gaming glasses with the Sega Master System. With pretty much the exact same LCD shutter tech powering the Samsung TVs and the expensive 3d glasses they use. Sure, it's a bit more refined and improved, but the tech was the same. You were connected to the game system with a length of cable that matched the timing but a small price to pay for cutting edge 3d.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_Master_System#SegaScope_3-D_Glasses
People are asking if there will be something to allow 3d on current tvs. This whole debacle of 3d technology would be just plain funny if people knew that even my ancient broken piece of crap Funai tv could do 3d with those Sega glasses. Why can't they now? Profits and corporate greed.
A simple IR emitting dongle could power those fancy 3d glasses from Samsung and turn any and all tvs into 3d. The only caveat would be that a BluRay player needed to be updated with firmware that could send the IR timing to the glasses. And have an accessible usb port to connect to that can point outwards to the seating positions.
@Ironhide Delta
Yep you are technically correct, but just like the Sega Master System 3D it would suck. Hard. No one wants their name on that.
Q: Are there any HDMI switches or similar devices that allow avoid buying new reciever just for 3D passthrough? The device should split HDMI signal to two cables - one for 3DTV and another one for sound reciever.
I have pretty expensive reciever and don't want to buy a new one just for 3D passthrough. Thank you
@espoir
Panasonic has a 3D Blu-ray player with 2 HDMI outputs so you can run one to the AVR for audio and one to the TV for 3D. I'm not aware of any other work arounds yet.
Anyone who buys 3d now is a bit on an idiot. Not only is there sweet FA to watch in 3d yet, but the models are way too expensive; and shortly tv sets that don't require glasses will be available.
Can anyone remember which company at CES demonstrated a 3d tv that didn't need glasses?
Would it be possible for Sony to release an IR transmitter for the PS3 that could sync with shutterglasses for all the people who bought non-3d TVs that are 120hz?
@DeAthWaGer
Sure it would be technically possible, but the quality would be really bad as the flicker from reducing the frame rate would not be good.
Are there any major (or minor) brands making TVs that work with polarized glasses? This is of real interest to me. I believe Zalman had/has a monitor that works this way.
Cheap glasses for all... nick 'em from your local cinema (or go to look3d.com)
@Zilch
Yes JVC makes a 46-inch which sells for $9k and is only 540p per eye since every other line is polarized the opposite way.
@BenD Holly cr@p!
in the question can my 120hz tv display 3d the answer was no. yet the nvidia computer kit just requires an nvidia card and a 120hz display.
you could easily build a media center computer to plug into your TV through hdmi or DVi to your TV and use your computer like a media center.
hell a company could make an adaptor with an IR emitter for the glasses and a processor to accept the signal.
@timc
That is correct. If any 120hz HDTVs accepted a 120hz signal then you could use the nVidia 3D vision kit. But sadly they only accept a 60hz signal.
I want to see Avatar in 3d again. If it means having the home setup, so be it. 3d Will be a niche market, like so many other things. It will most definitely be popular though. Just not popular to everyone.
Also, The idea of a "no glasses" 3d exists only in our minds. It would basically be a hologram.
Regarding Full-QAM transmission:
BluRay already supports efficient codecs, such as H.264/AVC and VC-1. Most cable-companies are still sending MPEG-2.
Even when the cable-company finally breaks down and ponies-up the money to upgrade to AVC, they will only catch-up to BluRay's codec.
To deliver VIDEO QUALITY to the viewer that is comparable to BluRay, they better also step-up to the plate and deliver comparable bandwidth.
It would take a FULL-QAM (~38Mbps) to match the bandwidth from common (2D) BluRay. And it would take ~80% of TWO QAM CHANNELS to match the touted 60Mbps rate of 3D BluRay.
When you watch HBO or SHO, and wonder why the picture looks like crap every time there is high motion or rapidly changing content remember they're only sending you limited bit-rate, old-style MPEG-2; not 30+Mbps of AVC (like BluRay).
There is no free ride. Even with modern, efficient codecs, superior picture fidelity requires high BW.
@juanvaldez
...And to think, even to this day (50 years AFTER the wizard of oz), they still haven't perfected color on TV.
*Hence Sharp coming out with that extra yellow pixel, or not being able to display true blacks on HDTVs.
...I probably won't live long enough to see manufacturers get 3d right.
My two questions:
1. Will my Yamaha RX-V663 receiver work with 3D? Currently I use it as an HDMI switcher and to decode DolbyTrueHD/DTS HD audio.
2. Is glasses 3D an interim technology before glasses-less 3D? I've seen no-glasses 3D sets. They were crude (only two or three depths like a pop-up book) but they exist. There were none I saw at NAB, probably because people want you to buy the current technology.
@synthetic88
1. Probably not, but it might.
2. Yes eventually we'll have glasses free 3D, but the quality isn't there yet.
Question on the media side of things. If I'm not ready to buy a 3D tv can I buy 3D blu-rays now and play them in 2D on a compatible player? AKA does a 3D disc act as both a 3D and 2D movie (assuming proper player support)?
@jtp
Almost all 3D Blu-ray Discs can be played back in 2D, but it is possible for a disc to be authored to only play in 3D. No word if studios will choose to do that though.
Nice write up Ben.