CES 2021: What will laptops look like in 2021 and beyond?

CES 2021: What will laptops look like in 2021 and beyond?

Video Transcript

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CHERLYNN LOW: Hello, everyone and welcome back to Engadget's virtual CES 2021 stage. Thank you for watching with us. If you've been here all day, oh my gosh, thank you so much. And if you just tuned in, welcome. This is the laptops panel for CES 2021, and it's about what that task will look like for this year and beyond. And joining me for this conversation, we've got representatives from HP and Lenovo, starting with Mike Nash, who is the chief technologist and VP of customer experience for personal systems over at HP. Hello, Mike, welcome.

MIKE NASH: Hey, Cherlynn, thanks for having us.

CHERLYNN LOW: Of course. And then from Lenovo, we've got Dilip Bhatia, the chief customer experience officer for the company. Dilip, thank you for joining us.

DILIP BHATIA: Great to be here, Cherlynn, and good to see you, Mike.

MIKE NASH: Good to see you.

CHERLYNN LOW: Yeah, it's really nice to have you both here. Now I wanted to do this panel, because I thought, look, at CES every year, we hear about the iterative upgrades, we hear about the newest chips that are going to be in the latest consumer laptop. We've got the 10th gen, the 11th gen, the next, next, next gen and onwards. But your two companies stand out to me in general, because in addition to providing these iterative upgrades, or constantly chasing the thin and light, which is laudable, and something that we like to see every year-- in addition to that, the two companies often bring something quirky, something new and fresh that we haven't seen to the table.

So I just wanted to kind of talk about that and how both your companies kind of create your products, right? So just for CES 2021, let's start with HP. Mike, can you tell us a little bit about the news that your company had to show for this year's show?

MIKE NASH: Yeah, I think honestly Cherlynn, the most important thing is going on is really how we're building products that support what HP calls one life, the bridge between your work life and your personal life. And making sure we're building products that really help us deal with what's becoming the new normal. The fact that I need to have great conferencing, so a great webcam, great microphones. One of the things we're super excited about is some of the AI-based noise cancelation that instead of using the angle with which you're speaking, we instead use AI to filter out things like a dog barking or a lawnmower.

Also, a lot of investment in 5 megapixel cameras on our Dragonfly Max to make sure you've got a super high resolution experience. And it's the sensor, not just the resolution that makes that experience be so awesome.

CHERLYNN LOW: Yeah, for sure. You brought up the Elite Dragonfly Gen 2 and Max. These are two of the more intriguing products you've announced here. You've also announced the Elite Folio. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

MIKE NASH: Yeah, we're super excited about that. I think the Elite Folio is a device-- what's cool about it is it supports a number of different postures. It supports a clamshell posture, a consumption posture, and a tablet posture for using your stylus. What's amazing about that is unlike, say, an iPad it really is designed to let you work-- use technology to work the way you want to work as opposed to making you change the way you're doing things based on a small limited set of postures.

I also love the new pen in this device. That has a garage place, where it can be stored not be lost like it is and some other devices. And it's always being charged. And of course, this device is really cool, because it's wrapped in vegan leather. So it's got a metal frame, but the outside makes it think like it's really-- like it's a folio-- that's the name.

CHERLYNN LOW: I mean, that's what really stood out to me. The Spectre Folio, I believe, launched in 2018, and that was the first time we saw this sort of vegan leather-covered laptop design. And back, then you did explain some of the benefits with this. Can you kind of remind us what these benefits of the half sort of leather build are?

MIKE NASH: Yeah, the key benefit-- first of all, in the previous version, it was actually real leather. And we got a lot of feedback just in terms of durability and in terms of environmental aspects to having vegan leather was a better choice for a lot of customers. So in our commercial customers, we focused on that. But the benefit is it has, like, a very personal feel. It feels like a high end purse or a folio you'd carry around. But it has all the functionality.

And as you're showing in the B roll here, what I love about it is it easily transforms on one posture to the next in a way that really supports the different ways you want to work or play. So annotating things up with the pen. Watching a video on Netflix or Hulu in consume mode. But also being able to be really productive in the clamshell mode.

CHERLYNN LOW: And we'll get to Lenovo in a second, but just on the Elite Dragonfly really quickly, too, I wanted to mention there's a large or significant part of the Dragonfly series of laptops that are built from, I believe, recyclable or ocean-bound materials. Is that right?

MIKE NASH: Yeah, absolutely. We're very focused on feedback from customers that says not only frankly, as humans, we want to make sure we're leaving the Earth in a better place than we found it. But also, frankly, it's become a very important purchase criteria for our customers. Customers are willing to seek out and choose and maybe even pay a premium for a device that has otherwise ocean-bound plastic. So we're really excited to be using a large percentage of the plastic parts from plastic otherwise would be floating around the ocean someplace.

And again, it's really important in the aspects of how we manufacture PCs to make sure they have more ocean-bound plastics to number two, make sure that our packaging is becoming much more environmentally appropriate. And frankly, really, our focus on energy is to make sure our devices, as they run, are being much more frugal in their use of energy.

CHERLYNN LOW: Moving over to Lenovo, Dilip you want to run us through some of the highlights of what you've announced at CES so? Far

DILIP BHATIA: Yeah, I mean, just to give you a little background one of the things a lot of our products you'll see are generated by customer insights, we monitor close to 20 million different comments, and also look at some of the big trends. Some of the trends that you're going to see in our products, we have made significant improvements in audio and camera. These are iterative improvements. But also, increased battery life. We have seen significant improvement in displays, 16 by 10 displays. Low blue light emissions-- low blue light, in general. A lot of our customers are their own IT these days. And so they have to be able to maintain and protect their own systems.

And then the last one is connectivity. You have no idea how many times I've had my calls that have had to go to my son and say, hey lay off that Xbox. I just did that right now and said, hey, don't get on that Xbox right now for the next 30 minutes, I'm going to get a call with Engadget. So you'll see these trends come true.

But what I love about CES is, you know, we can bring in new ideas, new concepts, get feedback. It was exactly 10 years ago or 11 years ago where we brought in the Yoga convertible for the first time, right? And today, convertibles are doing really well. Some of the new products that we're bringing in as an example, we're obviously bringing in a whole new line of ThinkPad products. We were launching-- 5G is becoming big.

And that's what you're going to see in the future-- connectivity is so important. With everybody working from home, it is so important that if your Wi-Fi gets cut off or if you've got family members using it, 5G becomes important. So we're launching a number of products, including exciting new form factors like the Think Reality A3 headset, which is an enterprise-grade form factor, where it allows you to basically have a virtual display of five different displays, 1080p, where you can basically have five different screens.

Or you can have remote work capability rights. or even devices like the LaVie, the Mini LaVie, which is basically an 8-inch convertible. And it can transform into your gaming device, right? And you can basically project it on a big HDMI screen by docking it.

So I love the show. We're really excited about some of the products that we're launching.

CHERLYNN LOW: I mean, last CES, I believe it was the first time Lenovo even showed off your prototype foldable tablet PC. Lenovo certainly isn't one to shy away from being a little more experimental up there. You also did really early on introduce a Yoga Book-- I believe one of the first dual screen laptop tablet-- hybrids-- there are. So again, I think people watching this stream now how much Lenovo has been trying out in the space of PCs.

But my question for both of you on the panel today-- and I'll start with you, Dilip. Because we're going to take turns with who answers questions first, OK? So Dilip, answer me this-- how do you decide what it is you think consumers want? Or, you know, a lot of people think maybe companies just throw ideas on a wall and see what sticks, right? And I'm sure there's more of a science to it than that. Dilip, what is the process of coming up with something creative like the foldable or a Yoga hinge, for example? What does that look like for Lenovo?

DILIP BHATIA: Sure. It's a great question, Cherlynn. And I get this question a lot, right? At Lenovo, you know, one of the things is we are constantly listening to customers. I was mentioning-- you know, we have a data analytics team that's basically processing close to 20 million comments on the internet.

And I can have sentiment analysis on every product. What did they like? What did they dislike? And then every product manager is taking that input and feedback and improving the product generation to generation.

And we've seen that. We get customer NPS scores on what they like in terms of their satisfaction-- in terms of their effort-- in terms of, would they recommend the product? So we're doing millions of surveys. We're processing close to 20 million comments.

We're also doing ethnographic study. In fact, our Legion lineup of gaming devices actually came from observing people and observing that people want a device that is powerful on the inside but looks professional on the inside. So by doing an ethnographic study and actually going into people's houses-- what kind of games do they play? What does their desktop environment look like?

CHERLYNN LOW: [LAUGHS]

DILIP BHATIA: So all of those factors go into discovery. But then, also, you look at the technology trends out there, right? Display was a great example. Last year, as you saw, we launched the X1 foldable. In the display industry, well, if it weren't ready, we wouldn't be there. So it took multiple iterations, over four years, to get the X1 foldable out.

So you look at technology trends that's coming out of the marketplace. 5G is another one. You're going to see a lot more 5G. In fact, our new X1 Titanium that we're launching-- and our X1 Carbon and X1 Yoga-- they're all 5G ready-- available. So it's a combination of looking at what customers are telling us-- insights, focus groups-- talking to both consumers, enterprise customers, but then also looking at a combination of technology trends in the marketplace.

CHERLYNN LOW: I'll get back to that a little later. Mike, what about you. How does HP make some of these decisions?

MIKE NASH: You know, I think the foundation stuff that Dilip mentioned is exactly right. We're very big users of Net Promoter Score I think the key thing for us that's emerging is the amount of telemetry we're getting-- in a way, that's obviously respectful of customer privacy. And really triangulating the emotion of a Net Promoter Score response-- how lucky am I to recommend-- with some of the telemetry about what's really going on on the device to try to derive insights-- both for improving the quality of the experience, but also to make sure we're addressing the aspirational needs.

I think the ethnographic studies are critical, as they are for Lenovo. But for us, we sort of go a step beyond that to try to really go look at what I'll call design thinking. Understand-- not just based on the technology speeds and feeds-- but really thinking about the aspirational experiences-- the problems to be solved by the customer. And then frankly, we'll go back and build what oftentime become what I'll call sort of low fidelity prototypes in hardware and software. Understand-- will these kinds of solutions make sense for the customer? And then bring them out sort of more from a product perspective.

I think another big thing we've focused on over the last few years is really-- in addition to looking at technology trends-- which obviously we're very, very close to-- also looking at design and fashion trends. So the colors that we choose-- those pallets. The fact that your HP laptop looks like a new Italian purse-- that's not a coincidence. It's because we're going to those same design experiences and the same design shows to understand where those trends are going, then embracing those as part of our product design.

CHERLYNN LOW: I will say I do love the way that HP laptops look, in general. The Spectre line is one of the best looking I've seen. But you brought up, by the way, Dilip, the LaVie Mini.

Now, this is one of the most surprising products for me so far of the show, anyway. And I think our viewers are pretty taken by it, too. In fact, in our live chat right now, one of our regular viewers, Mark Dell, wanted to know how the idea for the LaVie Mini came about.

It's not that no one has tried a concept like this before. But the LaVie-- again, to remind the viewer-- this is sort of an 8-inch, netbook-ish notebook with modern components. And then you can flip it around as a convertible and then add, like, little controllers to the sides and turn it into sort of like a giant Switch. Dilip, what was the customer feedback that led you down this road?

DILIP BHATIA: Yeah. I mean, this product was actually developed by our NEC PC division in Japan. And if you know anything in Japan, everything has got to be miniaturized.

[LAUGHTER]

Everything has got to be the ability to ongo. So I think when talking to customers, the feedback, definitely is, look, we want a full blown PC. But gaming, we've seen, is huge! Right? So what if we could combine a device that could be a full blown PC-- it's an 8-inch convertible-- with gaming controllers, also-- and the ability to dock at the same time?

So again, that's what really led to this. Again, it's a prototype, right? And we're looking to get some feedback from customers. And we have a reputation of taking risks and innovating in this space. Whether it's the Yoga Book-- whether it's the X1 foldable-- we're going to try different things and get feedback from customers. And if we get positive feedback, we'll launch this product.

CHERLYNN LOW: So, I mean, I'm personally a little bit skeptical about the typing experience on an 8-inch device like this. But, like, granted it is still a concept-- a prototype-- like you said. Now, you mentioned that you're still taking customer feedback. Is there any way for-- both of you, HP and Lenovo, by the way-- any way, for, say, our viewers right now to get in touch? Is there a forum? Is there a hotline that they can call, maybe? Mike, let's start with you.

MIKE NASH: Yeah, we have many, many forums, and I encourage customers to give us feedback. Honestly, one of them we also focused on-- especially for consumer customers-- is-- right on the device is the ability-- you'll frequently get a requests for an NPS survey.

CHERLYNN LOW: Mm-hmm.

MIKE NASH: And I will tell you that there are so many great ideas that-- we think we can think of everythin, we certainly can't.

CHERLYNN LOW: [LAUGHS]

MIKE NASH: And so many customer-inspired ideas come in through that channel that's sort of available. And a thing we look at-- I personally look at that data all the time. And the notion that we get it in almost a real time nature is super critical. And the forums are just a great place for that feedback.

CHERLYNN LOW: What about you, Dilip?

DILIP BHATIA: Yeah.

CHERLYNN LOW: How can people get in touch with Lenovo?

DILIP BHATIA: Same thing, Cherlynn. If you go to Lenovo.com/forums, there will be a forum on this particular product and a great opportunity to give that feedback. And I can tell you-- every product manager at Lenovo is looking at the comments on our products. What do they like? What do they dislike?

And you see that generation to generation. I still remember four generations ago on our X1 Carbon-- a lot of people were complaining about the audio quality speakers-- fourth generation.

CHERLYNN LOW: Yeah.

DILIP BHATIA: And today we've deployed front facing speakers purely based on customer feedback. Displays is another one-- three or four years ago. In fact, the number one thing that we know that people talk about on our forums-- you'll be surprised-- it's displays.

CHERLYNN LOW: Hmm.

DILIP BHATIA: And that's why we've significantly taken that every little bit of feedback and improved the brightness-- improved the resolution-- improving the color gamut-- going to 16 by 10-- going edge to edge. That's what customers are looking for, and that's what we do. So yeah, definitely come on the forums. Give us the feedback. And I can tell you-- we're definitely reviewing each and every piece of comment.

CHERLYNN LOW: It's certainly interesting. You mentioned that displays have indeed, in my experience, improved over the last few years on laptops. The audio improvement seems a little slower. But I'm sure this is something that you both are aware of and are working on. I've seen some of your latest products that pay attention to those things.

I did want to make sure we talk about just laptops more broadly, also, right? And you mentioned all these ideas that are coming up from your customers. They're so wild and so interesting! But what are the limits? What are you constrained by that you still have to bear in mind? Dilip, what would you say is a physical challenge in building something wild?

DILIP BHATIA: Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, you know, your CPUs-- your performance-- your storage, right? I mean, we've seen significant improvements in the motherboard-- where they are miniaturized significantly. The keyboard is-- again, you know, if you want a normal typing experience, there's only so much-- as you yourself said-- on the LaVie. It's an 8-inch.

CHERLYNN LOW: [LAUGHS]

DILIP BHATIA: Yeah, so the keyboard typing experience is not going to be optimal versus a regular 14-inch type of form factor. But I can also tell you that when we have done surveys with Gen Zs and we have talked to them, they are very open to different ideas.

And in fact, we've shown them foldables. We've shown them convertibles. We've shown them detachables. And there is no winner in this marketplace. So customers are very-- especially the Gen Z, the consumer, they're very open to different ideas.

But I would say, probably the keyboard's probably the biggest thing, in general, that I would say that kind of defines your PC experience. And we've tried that with the foldable-- and you've seen what we can do with the foldable. So I see foldable to be much more a growing category in the near future.

CHERLYNN LOW: Mike, what about you? What are some of the limits that-- or maybe there aren't any limits-- but what are some limits that govern kind of HP's more creative pursuits?

MIKE NASH: Yeah, I think it's very much a balance, Cherlynn-- where you want to balance both performance, battery life, and in some level thermals and the size of the device-- and weight, of course. So I think in some cases we've seen some of our competitors sometimes making a device be super thin-- in order to do that having to throttle back the performance of the device. And especially for emerging workloads like creators, customers tell us they'd rather have the device maybe sometimes be a millimeter thicker if they can get that much better video rendering performance, and we've really focused on those kinds of capabilities.

I'll also say that we're also learning a lot more-- especially as people are working in these new work from home or hybrid workplaces, which really add up to working more hours-- we all know that. I think one of the things we've been investing in a lot recently is blue light filtering, something called eye-ease technology that we're building in hardware. And the benefit is you get the benefit of being able to look at the screen for a long time without being affected by blue light but still have your color accuracy be appropriate. So whites look white, even though blue light's being filtered.

CHERLYNN LOW: So Mike, this question is specifically for you, because Lenovo's already got a foldable tablet out there. But what is HP's take on foldable displays in its products at all?

MIKE NASH: I think we're definitely looking at that. I think we've sort of seen the market emerging in terms of where the screens themselves and that technology being reliable. We want to make sure we're giving customers a product with great longevity. And frankly, also working very closely with our OS partners-- Microsoft in particular-- to make sure we've got software that can support those experiences.

CHERLYNN LOW: Oh, for sure. I think that's one of the challenges that I think we haven't really discussed yet-- is that, like, a lot of the limits tend to come from software. Often the hardware is great, but the software holds it back. And that's one of the biggest complaints from our end thus far.

I want to now zoom out even more. And since both of you are such experts in this space, I want to know what you think. So let's start with you, Dilip. What you think-- let's say in two years or in five years, even-- what will a laptop look like? What are the things it has? What are these must have features? And then what are some of the wilder features we can expect?

DILIP BHATIA: Yeah, I mean, I think overall, what you're going to see now-- whether it's in the next two years or whether it's in the next five years-- we have seen tremendous growth in the PC market. And you just saw the numbers from [? IBC. ?] You know, we haven't hit these numbers since 2015.

So we're at close to 300 million PCs in 2020. That's a growth rate of roughly-- what? About 13, 14% in the marketplace. So I'm bullish in terms of-- there's a huge market that-- a lot of an installed base that has older PCs that will need to buy upgraded or newer PCs.

Obviously, from an iterative standpoint, you're going to continue to see significant improvements in audio-- in cameras, overall. I mean, something as simple as-- you know, we're instituting Dolby Voice. So we're all working remotely. And with Dolby Voice, you can actually feel as if you're in a conference room, right? And being able to hear what other people are saying-- it's able to suppress some background noises, accentuate softer noises. It's the little things, from an innovation standpoint, that'll make a big difference in terms of remote work, right? Technology, obviously, needs to help us stay connected. But also from our well-being perspective.

You heard Mike Nash, also, talk about our displays. Everybody's focused on reducing blue light displays-- you know, going to edge to edge. Battery life is going to get improved. Our IdeaPad 5G are already at 20 hours! And again, that is-- as we, hopefully, get out of COVID situation where [INAUDIBLE] get out of there, right? We need battery life. We need full days' battery life.

So you're starting to see getting full day-- you know, the IdeaPad 5, too, we're getting 20 hours. And my hope is that'll be the standard going forward-- 10, 15, 20 hours overall. These devices are going to be self-healing in the future. As we found out this year, there is no IT support now, right? Everybody's working remotely. So you have to be your own technician.

You have to be your own remote device. And so you'll start to see these devices becoming self-healing and being able to predict when things are going to happen. We're providing diagnostics to large enterprise customers and being able to predict when some of these drivers are potentially going to fail, right? With our self-diagnostic capabilities.

Connectivity is huge. I envision in a couple of years 5G will be pretty much standard-- available on all of the laptops. So you're throttled by Wi-Fi everywhere, right? So it's connectivity anywhere and everywhere.

CHERLYNN LOW: What about you, Mike? What do you think on that topic? And I know Dilip's covered a lot.

MIKE NASH: I think, honestly, for me, it's not just the technology for the sake of technology-- but really where the trends are going with the customers that we're going after. I think, in particular, this whole notion of a hybrid workforce-- it's a very real thing.

You know, we know that today about half the global workforce is working remote. Well, I think even things as things go back to steady state, I think 70% of knowledge workers are going to want a hybrid remote office model. And then really the notion of micromobility becomes a really big deal-- where I may be working in different parts of my home. I may need to have a great battery life even within the home.

We're also very focused on helping to make sure that if customers have a notebook, they can dock. And we're excited about our embracing of USB-C for power delivery, for video, and for docking of peripherals. I think, as we move forward, making sure we're making it easier for companies to deploy and manage the full customer lifecycle is critical. But if you think about the laptop of the future, certainly the fundamentals of keyboard and touchpads are critical.

CHERLYNN LOW: Mm-hmm.

MIKE NASH: I wonder, though, if there'll be more scenarios where you're not always doing input via keyboard and not always getting information back via the screen.

CHERLYNN LOW: Mm-hmm.

MIKE NASH: And therefore different-- what I'll call next generation user interfaces become a critical part of the roadmap.

DILIP BHATIA: Yeah, and Cherlynn, to build on Mike's point, voice is going to be huge, right? And we've seen that. We've deployed the Alexa Show Mode in a number of our consumer PCs. So it's just like talking to any Alexa smart device, right? So we've instituted that capability. So voice is certainly going to be huge.

CHERLYNN LOW: That's a really good point you bring up. It does sound like a lot of these things are not very obvious to the eye, immediately. The general shape of laptops-- besides what Mike has pointed out about if we move away from keyboard and trackpad inputs-- the general shapes of laptops don't seem to be changing all that much. I mean, besides occasional hexagonal shapes with the cutouts for the USB-C, shouting out to UHB.

But do you think, then, we're more or less settled-- in terms of form factor? We've seen that sort of move from clamshell to convertible. We're starting to see some foldable traction. Just shapes, right? Of laptops-- you think they're going to stay for the next few years? Let's start with you, Mike.

MIKE NASH: I mean, I think, in particular, I've been really excited about-- as you mentioned, Cherlynn-- the previous Spectre Folio-- now the Elite Folio. Because I think, again, it's the key postures it supports. I love the 360. Don't get me wrong. I've carried one for years. But the idea of having the clamshell mode and the consume mode and the tablet and the pen mode-- for me-- are super, super critical, in terms of customer feedback.

I mean, foldables-- we've look at them, they're interesting. But in terms of where customer attention happens-- especially, I think we've looked at kind of as customers have struggled with iPad Pros, you know, they're trying to be a clamshell. But really, when it's in the Magic Keyboard, can you use your pen very easily? Can you watch Netflix in a way that's convenient? We tried to make sure that without pulling the tablet off, you have the ability to go in those three postures and get what you want to do-- and, by the way, while storing in and protecting your pen.

CHERLYNN LOW: Dilip, what do you think about the shape of laptops, in general?

DILIP BHATIA: So one thing I will say is-- I truly believe computing is everywhere. I mean, I know we're so focused on laptops. But think about it, right? A couple of years ago, we didn't have these smart devices. We weren't using voice. We have these smart frames now. We have these smart devices. We have these smart displays.

So honestly, you've got your computing anywhere. In my house, every room has some sort of smart device where you could talk to know your schedule. Your car has a lot of this technology already, right? You're talking to your cars today. So, to me, computing is just going to be everywhere, right?

But specifically, in terms of laptops, I still feel we're in the very early stages of innovation. I mean, if you look at the car industry, right? How long has it been? There is no one size fits all, right?

Today people like SUVs. They like their trucks. They like their electric cars. They like their convertibles, right? And you're going to see the same level of innovation come to PCs.

And just as I mentioned, the survey that we recently did with Gen Zs, recently, right? This is 24% of our buying power today-- with Gen Zs. And when we go do surveys with them, there is no one size fits all.

They like different form factors. There's a lot of interest in convertibles versus just standard clamshells versus, you know, detachables or foldables. So you are going to continue to see this innovation come through in this industry.

CHERLYNN LOW: And we are about out of time, but I want to do a quick shoutout to the live chat. The Original DJ Johnny Digital mentioned that, in the future, all laptops should be round. We don't know that. It doesn't seem like that is the big takeaway from today's panel.

It does seem, though, that we have learned a little bit more about how both of your companies solicit or look for user feedback and that that's a huge component of how you go on and create these creative projects or products and bring them to life-- which is really good to know. And then it sounds like technologies, or changes, we're going to see coming to laptops in the future-- at least in the PC world-- are mostly things that we can't see like AI-based noise reduction. It seems like both of you are very bullish on 5G-- and different form factors, like the Elite Folio and foldables on the ThinkPad X1 Fold front.

So, I mean, I feel like I've learned a bunch from this conversation. Thank you both for being here with us today. Mike, it's nice to see you, and Dilip-- you, too. Thank you for joining us, both of you! I hope you have a good CES.

MIKE NASH: Thanks for having us.

DILIP BHATIA: Thank you for having us.

MIKE NASH: Thank you.

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CHERLYNN LOW: And for the viewer at home-- if you're tuning in live, in just about a minute, we are going to go over to the Sony press conference. So keep the [INAUDIBLE] running-- engadget.com-- or on the Engadget YouTube channel. And then come back tomorrow for more.