Blu-ray camp can't get 50GB titles to work?

Most new technologies have some teething problems as the early kinks are worked out, but it seems like the Blu-ray camp is experiencing more than its fair share of growing pains -- first the delays, then news that the supposed format-savior PS3 might price itself right out of the market, and finally the revelation that first-gen BD-P1000's were shipping with a picture-degrading chip. Well now it appears that there's even more bad news for Sony's pride and joy, as The Digital Bits' Bill Hunt is confirming what many people already suspected after reading their P1000 manuals: the $1,000 player, as currently configured, will be unable to support movies on upcoming 50GB discs. Hunt cites multiple anonymous industry sources in reporting that Samsung is still having problems getting 50GB discs to work on its machines -- production titles weren't even available to test before the players launched -- and that both Sony and Pioneer are experiencing the same issues with their upcoming products. Luckily for current P1000 owners, it seems that this incompatibility is of the type that will eventually be solved by a firmware upgrade, but until that time, movie studios have been forced to delay longer titles like Lawrence of Arabia and Black Hawk Down -- no doubt frustrating some consumers. With so much on the line here, it's clear that this issue will be resolved sooner or later; however, with the HD DVD camp already offering cheaper (and more) hardware, a larger media selection, and garnering better initial reviews than Blu-ray, it's not clear how much time is left before the so-called format war begins leaning decidedly in HD DVD's favor.

[Via HDBeat]

[teknomusik @ Aug 29th 2006 2:50PM]

Yeah! Beta-ray sucks! Go HD-DVD :)

[Wonderboy @ Aug 29th 2006 2:54PM]

I'm still rooting for Blu-Ray, hoping they'll get there act together... and I don't necessarily think they've lost the game just yet, but they're certainly not doing so hot.

If, in the end, Blu-Ray ends up blowing everything it'll at least be entertaining to watch the finger-pointing... cause if you ask me, the hardware was potentially better (based on disc-space), the price wasn't too unreasonable (based on what people would have paid if products were available), and studio/hardware developer support was there...

Who, oh who, will the finger point to in the end?

Hopefully there won't be a pointing of fingers... hopefully Blu-Ray will make a strong come-back and eventually blow HD-DVD out of the water, but at this rate, who knows... I might just be buying my next-gen optical drives/discs in an HD-DVD flavor after all.

[Wonderboy @ Aug 29th 2006 2:56PM]

teknomusik

Very impressive articulation... then again, given your apparent choice of music and the obvious "brain enhancement" it provides, I'm not surprised.

[Dave Clark @ Aug 29th 2006 2:56PM]

Thats pretty dumb to think an entire format is doomed because of one crappy player. Thats like saying your DVD suck just because you bought a Cyberhome DVD player. Or that All Kenyan grown coffee sucks just because you bought your coffee pot from a garage sale.

Come-on you can post better stuff than that.

[PreGHz @ Aug 29th 2006 2:59PM]

Who's ready to start a flame war?

[Wonderboy @ Aug 29th 2006 2:59PM]

Dave Clark

I'd agree with you if this were the first problem, but you have to admit the series of "hiccups" we've seen with Blu-Ray are a little daunting... but as I said above, I truly hope Blu-Ray wins out solely for providing a potentially better medium/technology with much more room to grow.

[z @ Aug 29th 2006 3:04PM]

My VHS player still works great.

[CharlieX @ Aug 29th 2006 3:11PM]

I too champion Blu-Ray... but it's starting to smell bad. They better get their %$#@ together, and ASAP. Sony needs to get off the crack before the crack puts them away.

[Lou @ Aug 29th 2006 3:11PM]

Dave Clark, the entire format is not being trashed because of one player, if you had read closely you would have noticed that again this is a problem with this technology just not being ready, no one had titles to test on these machines. I predict a win for HD-DVD for the following reasons.

1. Keep it simple stupid. Blu-Ray may have won the specs war, but because HD-DVD has already gotten it together, the players are ready and the reviews sound positive, they have a huge leading edge. While Blu-Ray is still in the starting gates

2. The name, the name, the name. I'm assuming that any person that reads Engadget is a more educated consumer than normal. I think if the average person walked into Best Buy and saw the players, a format called HD-DVD is the logical choice to go with their HDTV and their HD Cable. It just fits...what is Blu-Ray.

3. PS3 is probably going to be incredible, but Blu-Ray isn't going to succeed because of it like they had hoped. Their reasoning is so flawed. If you want the general public to accept a new format by selling a gaming system marketed to bleeding edge gamers, you are way off base. While the gaming community may adopt the platform first, I don't think the gaming community is ever going to be the reason that a format is adopted.

4. Who wants to be caught dead with Sony right now. PS3 pricing woes (plus reports that it may not arrive on time or with enough units to satisfy demand), the whole rootkit fiasco, and Sony laptop batteries blowing up left and right causing millions to be without their computers. That has got to have some residual affect.

[TheGuyNextDoor @ Aug 29th 2006 3:14PM]

Aaah, good ol' "anonymous industry sources", where would technology "news" sites be without them?

Perhaps I'm also an industry source, and I would like to suggest that there are no problem with the unreleased BluRay players and dual-layer discs, and that the current Samsung player will be fine with the discs once it gets it's firmware update. Firmware updates are something HD-DVD players should also be familiar with - like the HDMI playback problem for example. But all this is rather dull and un-news-worthy.

Also, just for a laugh, people might want to have a look at some reviews for the HD-DVD of Perfect Storm, which, as it's a longer-length movie, seems to be struggling with visual artifacts caused by over-compression. Funny that.

[CharlieX @ Aug 29th 2006 3:14PM]

Good post, Lou. I agree 100%

[John Doe. @ Aug 29th 2006 3:15PM]

I wonder how much of these headaches in both camps is due to the layer upon layer of DRM? Obviously reading 50GB disks doesn't have anything to do with it but some of the other issues? *shrugs* Whatever. I'm not going near either anytime soon.

[John Doe. @ Aug 29th 2006 3:15PM]

Hey Dave. When all you have available to purchase is one player it makes things a hell of a lot more cut and dry then going out and buying one of 10 bjillion DVD players on the market.

[Franssu @ Aug 29th 2006 3:35PM]

I agree with Lou on this one.

I see a lot of people here rooting for Blu-Ray just because of the alledgedly better technology... Well ithe size may be a little plus for Blu-Ray, but for me the added DRM layer is an enormous minus. And the ultra-thin protection layer is another one.

And if things continue the way they started, HD-DVDs will have three layers when the Blu-Ray camp finally releases some readable dual-layer discs :D

[SickNic @ Aug 29th 2006 4:03PM]

And now look at this:

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/08/29/sony-having-trouble-with-blu-ray-laser-production/

Sony is reportedly halting shipments of blue laser diodes to other manufacturers to ensure they will have enough available for the PlayStation 3 launch. Meaning other manufacturer's of Blu-ray drives and players wont be able to manufacture as many drives...

[JEF @ Aug 29th 2006 4:04PM]

Man did sony choke with Blu-ray. They were close to getting HD-DVD to fold, and now look where they are.

But...at the end of the day, both formats are simply the same as Video on Demand or digital downloads except that as physical media they are less useful. :-)

[David Burkhardt @ Aug 29th 2006 4:28PM]

If Sony would wake up and stop encoding their movies in MPEG-2 they wouldn't have to worry about the extra 25GB of space...

This is yet another nail in the coffin for BlueRay IMO...

HD-DVD Advantages:
Newer video compression with superior video quality
Cheaper to produce discs
Players are cheaper for consumers
Doesn't need 50GB of storage space for long movies
Isn't sacrificing video quality like Blueray to squeeze a 2 hour HD movie encoded in MPEG-2 in 25GB of space.

BR Advantages:
NONE!
Price? Nope
Video quality? Nope
Video storage capacity? Nope

Oh wait, but it does have a larger disc. But it's extra space is rendered USELESS since they encode their video with MPEG-2.

This 50GB disc which doesn't exist yet, is only an advantage to PC users.

I personally could care less about 50GB of disc space. It's not needed when you encode your HD with a new video codec like HD-DVD is using (h.264)

But in the US for some reason "quantity over quality" always seems to win out with the sheep. XM radio and Sirius are prime examples of "quantity over quality". FM radio sounds WAY better than XM or Sirius. The only way anyone could possibly think those satellite services sound better than FM is if they were deaf... LOL, a 96kbit MP3 almost sounds better and has way more dynamics. Was that a cymbal I heard or someone dumping out a bucket of water?

[Mike @ Aug 29th 2006 4:41PM]

Toshiba released firmware which enables full 5.1 decoding of Dolby TrueHD. This delivers up to 18mb/s of loseless audio.

Blu-ray is looking silly now.

[Wonderboy @ Aug 29th 2006 4:58PM]

TheGuyNextDoor was right... check out the review for A Perfect Storm.

"The transfer shows exaggerated ghosting artifacts, which are most likely a result of over-compression."

http://www.dvdreview.com/reviews/pages/2323.shtml

Looks like Blu-Ray isn't the only one having problems...

[CharlieX @ Aug 29th 2006 5:36PM]

VC-1, h.264, and MPEG-2 are all adpoted standards that all HD-DVD *and* Blu-Ray players MUST support.

Why you would use MPEG-2 for Blu-Ray films is beyond me. I would think they guys in charge of mastering HD films for disc would be geeky enough to know what's going on.... VC-1 and 264 are superior next-gen compression schemes that yield better picture at less bits.

[James @ Aug 29th 2006 6:04PM]

Wonderboy,

"TheGuyNextDoor was right... check out the review for A Perfect Storm.

"The transfer shows exaggerated ghosting artifacts, which are most likely a result of over-compression."

...

Looks like Blu-Ray isn't the only one having problems..."

Wouldn't that be the studio's fault for overcompressing something and not the fault of the technology's?

If you want to point fingers, at least not be ignorant about it.

If you compare the movies released on both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, you'll see that all of the reviews favor HD-DVD.

[Perrey Z. @ Aug 29th 2006 6:21PM]

Aww... Sony is the influential key member of the Blu Ray Disc Camp... Well after their battery fiasco and the many many many MANY problematic products my vote {and ca$h} might switch to the HD DVD camp.

[Alex @ Aug 29th 2006 6:44PM]

Why am I reminded of BetaMax? A technically superior product created by Sony killed by some setbacks.

Really, I'd love to see both formats die quickly so there might be a chance for a single, unified, better HD format to come out. Though it sounds like the only real drawback to HD-DVD is the capacity issue. It would be great if there was some way of upping the capacity without confusing the market.

[The Incredible Hulk @ Aug 29th 2006 7:40PM]

Hulk like great picture quality, affordability, and glitch-free performance for Hulk money. Blu Ray no have. Hulk SMASH Blu Ray!!

[StooMonster @ Aug 29th 2006 7:56PM]

Building on David Burkhardt's comments:

HD DVD advantages:
No region encoding (at this point in time)
Better picture quality (Microsoft helping master VC-1 discs)
Better audio, players tend to have audio decoders built in so they can support likes of TrueHD with analogue outputs if your receiver doesn't decode TrueHD.

BluRay disadvantes:
Region encoded
Nastiest DRM that is anti-consumer

Why consumers champion BluRay I don't know, it is simply potential disc capacity? Or that people _love_ Sony?

Oh yeah, and last week Sony said that when they do get dual-layer 50GB discs working they are going to use extra space for 'extras' rather than extra picture/sound quality as in their view 25GB is fine for movies even with MPEG-2.

HD DVD is going to remain visually and aurally better for some time to come.

[Dave Clark @ Aug 29th 2006 8:13PM]

Give it time folks:

I gaurentee that Blue-ray will win out. Probably one of the biggest reasons is Apple backing it! And if you know anything about Media design then you know apple. Most major studios wont even touch a PC when working in video production.

Oh yeah and the fact that Vista won't even support HD-DVD off the bat.

[EdZ @ Aug 29th 2006 8:16PM]

So, the very first players are having problems? Does anyone remember the first DVD players, hmm? Even my DAV-S300, which wasn't even a really early player, gets into a tizzy with some discs that work fine in other players (and the majority of those have been burnt discs with minor flaws). Apart from those few, it's an exceptional player. Labelling a format as doomed because the first players have some problems is really rather silly.

[Shmoe @ Aug 29th 2006 8:23PM]

Got Root?
Blunder-Ray = Betamax

That Xbox 360 HD-DVD drive for $100 - $200 is looking awfully good right now. Why pay a $1,000 for something that doesn't work right, look as good and costs way too much.

HD-DVD has a theoretical limit of 60 gigs per disk, higher than the 50 of Beta-Ray. But right now, there's no need for 50 gig disk. Why spend a fortune for a 50 gig disk even if you could buy one now (which you can't) when you can use a cheap online backup site like Carbonite to backup your stuff and not rely on a disk that could get scratched or wiped out by a natural disaster at your house? Plus, I'm sure Toshiba will get around to releasing a 50 gig disk eventually, to satisfy that limited market.

[Josh @ Aug 29th 2006 8:27PM]

As mentioned, the problems are more than just a bad initial player. Sony has been stumbling quite a bit and the results jeapordize not just blu-ray but the PS3 as well. Sony has made a lot of noise about including BR playback in the PS3 primarily because they hope to bolster BR uptake. However the result has been a massively overpriced game system that has its competitive edge considerably dulled against rivals. I, for one, do not wish to pay the price tag just so that I can help sony with their little format war, and I very much doubt I am unique in that sentiment.

The PS3's price is going to inhibit uptake of their console, BR has delayed the launch, and allegedly is the reason production has not yet begun on it. Sony is pretty close to literally betting the company on this format and it is hurting their other divisions. If the format fails sony is going to be a specter of what they once were. Yes, these can seem like just a series of minor setbacks, but with the degree that sony is relying on the format it is crucial they have as few setbacks as possible.

Also, am I the only one who finds it interesting that sony has yet to field a player of their own? It does not bode well for the format when the chief architect of said format cannot put forth their own player.

[James @ Aug 29th 2006 9:00PM]

Dave Clark,

"Oh yeah and the fact that Vista won't even support HD-DVD off the bat."

Does that automatically mean Vista will support Blu-Ray? Like Microsoft has said, support for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray is up to the software companies like Cyberlink, Intervideo, etc. Whatever software the hardware vendor bundles is up to the hardware vendors and not controlled by Microsoft. Microsoft doesn't want another EU-type lawsuit against them because Microsoft bundled media player, ie, etc with their operating system.

You are another typical ignorant Blu-Ray supporter. Why don't you do more research before you start posting anymore stupid comments?

[Jeffrey @ Aug 29th 2006 9:33PM]

Like I post in the HD blog, there are already BD-R 50GB available along with the burners. Why can't just somone burn one and try on the player? I know the processes aren't the same, but at least it'll show if the samsung player can read both layers. Also, some BD drives are already installed in PCs, shouldn't those be tested to?

[n2 @ Aug 29th 2006 10:29PM]

If Samsung doesn't resolve the 50GB disc reading issue, then you're looking at the major misstep and consumer distrust in the format. And it's not Samsung's fault, but I believe that Sony may have been pushing in the background. Without Samsung releasing a player as early as it did, there would not avenue to play the discs which were releasing, which would have put the format even further behind.

It's clear Blu-Ray was released before it was ready. It's clear that there's issue behind the scenes. Movies are being announced and then delayed. Players are being announced and delayed. Even the PS3 was announced and delayed (because of Blu-Ray?). It's affecting some major players.

If the PS3, with all the fanfare and promotion from Sony as of late, has any major Blu-Ray glitch, or setback, it's going to affect Blu-Ray as a whole.

[jaysins @ Aug 30th 2006 2:20AM]

Both formats were released before they were ready, but sony along with samsung definitely did a worse job than toshiba IMO. Problems with noise and hdmi cables and now early adopters are facing the possibility of a long wait before they can get HD-DVD quality movies. Plus the toshiba player is one of the best price vs perfomance upconverting dvd players on the market. Neither players technially put out a native 1080p singal as the samsung player takes a 1080p singal, downs it to 1080i then upscales it back up to 1080p for your tv. I just don't see any advantages in the near future for sony with their current hardware problems and lackluster movie titles. Also, at current rate toshiba may not be very far behind with their 45gig triple layer disks. I do not think the ps3 is going to help sony a lot because those of us that can afford a High def tv are not going to use the ps3 as a player if its not about as good as stand alone player(at least not until HDTV becomes less expensive and more mainstream); which is how it's been with every dvd playing console that I ever owned 360 included. Finally, the biggest problem I have with blu-ray is the price. Various sources stated that toshiba has outsold bluray by about 33% yet bluray has earend 44% more profit. That means sony is making over double what toshiba is for a less capable player with a smaller movie selection and generally inferior movie quality. That's ridiculous in my eyes and I just can't support a company that to me pushes it's name rather than product and thinks they can put such a premium on it. Their lcd's maybe, but not bluray when we have a such a better alternative for movies. Maybe blu-ray for pc, but a 60 gig hd-dvd I know for me would be extremely adequate storage, but thats a descision based on my personal needs. I really think HD-DVD is going to win the war at this rate. Of course some analyst think w/e format wins will have a very short lifespan due to better storage mediums on the pc. Who knows?

[Fredus @ Aug 30th 2006 7:05AM]

"Give it time folks:

I gaurentee that Blue-ray will win out. Probably one of the biggest reasons is Apple backing it! "

Yeah because... apple are really successful at everything they do and all... not. If it took them as long as it did to release computers with cd burners in them then you wont see a blue ray player in an apple for about 10 years.

[Wonderboy @ Aug 30th 2006 9:24AM]

James:

"Wouldn't that be the studio's fault for overcompressing something and not the fault of the technology's?

If you want to point fingers, at least not be ignorant about it.

If you compare the movies released on both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, you'll see that all of the reviews favor HD-DVD."

On one hand it's the studio's fault, on the other hand it's a downside to the HD-DVD format. Sure, the studio could have encoded the movie at a better compression, but they traded that option in order to include a slew of special features. Theoretically, when the 50GB BDs come out, the studio would have the option to include all of the special features plus the movie at a better compression due to haveing an extra 20 GB to work with.

Obviously that's not an option right now, and obviously Blu-Ray supporters are looking kinda stupid right now, but if they can get their act together and release hardware that performs as it should and 50 GB discs, then you've got yourself a perfect solution to the problem.

As it is, neither format is a perfect solution, hence the lovely arguements we get to witness in here.

I repeat... I hope Blu-Ray gets there act together so they can compete with HD-DVD, it's a superior format and would definitely win, if only they don't squander the chance with poor compression and faulty hardware.

[Bub @ Aug 30th 2006 10:53AM]

What a stupid article. "Price itself right out of the market?" Let's see, a blu-ray player for $600 that's also a superior next-gen gaming device.

Oh, and let's not forget all the firmware upgrades the Toshiba had to go through.

You call this news? This is biased disinformation, without even references to what you're supposedly writing about.

Good luck with the writing career.

[Rickdiculous @ Aug 30th 2006 11:03AM]

I love how you say "Blu-Ray Camp," instead of Samsung. Looks like you can't differentiate between a format and a company.

[Westacular @ Aug 30th 2006 1:46PM]

"movie studios have been forced to delay longer titles like Lawrence of Arabia and Black Hawk Down -- no doubt frustrating some consumers."

Black Hawk Down is only 150 minutes long; not much longer than most of the titles released so far. As David Burkhardt commented, there'd be plenty of space if Sony got off its ass and start using something more efficient than MPEG2. Both VC-1 and H.264 are part of the spec; why on earth aren't they either using it or letting the studios compress the movies themselves using the codec of their choice? I can only speculate that Sony's refusing VC-1 because it's Microsoft, and it's hesistant about H.264 because the tools aren't mature yet.

TheGuyNextDoor: Perfect Storm is only 130 minutes; hardly a long movie. Several other *longer* movies have been released on HD-DVD that are considered to have *TOP-TIER* image quality. Don't blame a couple crappy mastering jobs on the format itself.

Personally, I don't know which format is going to win, but in terms of the *currently available* price, quality, and technical features, HD-DVD is clearly better.

[back door delivery @ Aug 30th 2006 5:14PM]

I am passing on this whole Blue-Ray debate.

I am waiting for Sony to come out with Gay-Ray at 1000GB per unit.

[added DRM layer? @ Aug 30th 2006 7:59PM]

Franssu:
"Well ithe size may be a little plus for Blu-Ray, but for me the added DRM layer is an enormous minus."

Both formats use the exact same DRM, AACS. There's no difference between the two on this front.

David Burkhardt:
HD-DVD movies are encoded in VC-1 (WMV), not H.264. I believe HD-DVD does support H.264, and I know BluRay does. No compression format advantage here on either side.

[Dave @ Aug 31st 2006 5:52PM]

I also think Blu-Ray will win because its the better texnology.
HD DVD is dangerous to store data on because it is easy to scratch. BD have DURABIS hardcoating.

[ray mclean @ Oct 2nd 2006 1:20PM]

wot complete crap.....do you live on planet sony?...... blu ray discs are closer to the surface. 0.01nm and are much easier to damage.....
wot a sony lover

[Ben Hobbs @ Sep 1st 2006 8:18AM]

I think people are missing the main point of the article.

If Movie companies are forced to use MPEG2 25Gb disks for all the movies comin out soon that leaves a large proportion of the blu-ray library crippled permanently.

If 300-400 films get released before they have solved this, then thats 300-400 prospective films in your library that will always look bad on ANY blu-ray player.

Its Catch-22, they have to release movies as soon as they can to keep up with HD DVD, but they have to release these movies in 25Gb.

There is no way they will get away with re-releasing all the current movies in 50Gb form later on.

[David Woodward @ Sep 23rd 2006 3:32AM]

I forget where I read that they are at 80% yield on titled dual-layer discs, but it doesn't matter, just look at the market like "Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back" ---- Blu-Ray dual layer. Secondly, Mike, big deal on 'full' 5.1 TrueHD, the format is theoretically capable of 14 channels, and both formats call for the eventual use of its current FULL capability of 7.1 channels. Which Toshiba blew with the HD-XA2 by making it HMDI 1.3 to get the beauty of TrueHD but 5.1 only

[ray mclean @ Oct 2nd 2006 1:22PM]

how the hell is blu ray better?....its already shown its crap compared to hd dvd.....and you ps3 idiots its only for fmv storage...it has nothing to do with game content....sony just want more for less.....
hd dvd is gonna win this hands down...blu ray just cant compete, and with 2 major companies about to dump it coz it doesnt work..(jvc and pioneer) sony is gonna look stupid...as is every ps3 owner

[Freestyle @ Oct 11th 2006 3:07PM]

lol
smh
everybody's a critic

damn i wish i can read some hard facts
everyone screaming at each other about whos right
while they give their own incorrect information

for one i am interested in blu ray and to be able to get a next gen system like ps3 that can play next gen media like hd movies (which no matter what format are all hi def) and play games for 600 is a steal
think about it regular game systems sell for about 300 a good price for a hi def dvd player be it blu ray or hddvd is about 5 to 7 hundred
and to get all that for 6 i dont know
sounds like a must have

[Freestyle @ Oct 11th 2006 5:32PM]

will this help

http://www.engadget.com/2005/09/19/blu-ray-vs-hd-dvd-state-of-the-s-union-s-division/