So just what does the Cell processor do, you ask?
We kind of figured anyone paying attention to our reports on the Cell processor would have gotten the jist of it by now that it wasn't really being poised to compete with the x86 or PowerPC markets—afterall, for all its technological advancements it's primarily a number cruncher, 8 of those 9 cores being vector units, which are perfect for gaming and running codecs and predictable processes—but Jon Peddie is out for blood over the Cell's already accumulating hype and misrepresentations. We can't say we blame him, too (we're officially pointing the finger at Sony's notorious hype machine). Anyway, he wants you to know: no, it's not a "supercomputer" (by definition, anyway), no, it won't do straight Internetworked grid computing, and while it may show up in your TV, no, it's probably not going to change your life. In other words, the jig is up. But thanks for playing Toshiba, IBM, and (especially) Sony, and we'll see you in 2007 for your next bull session of hype!
Filed under: Gaming
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Brandon Paddock @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
Another thing they forget to mention is the total irrelevancy of comparing this to the Xbox 2 (which will most likely be using "normal" Power5 chips).
Sony likes to say, "Our system's processor is TEN times faster than theirs," but they never mention that their processor has to do TWENTY times as much work, as their sytems don't have GPUs.
That's where a much better comparison comes in... The Cell architecture versus the semi-fixed-function processing units inside a modern GPU.
For instance, the PS2's main processor is capable of about 6.2 GFLOPS. Sony says this is *WAY* better than the Xbox's Pentium III-M and its measly 2.4 GFLOPS.
What they forget to mention is that the Xbox's GPU can do 140 GFLOPS (the PS2 and PS3 have no GPU).
Moral of the story, "My processor is bigger than yours" arguments are useless, especially when they processor completely different things :)
Jason @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
Because it does not take a fortune teller to realize this will quickly turn into a Sony bashing spree, let me start some early damage control. Sony hyped up the PS2, so what? Microsoft did the same with the Xbox. Dont believe me? Read on.
Microsoft claims the Xbox will push 300 million polygons a sec and be THREE TIMES as powerful as the PS2:
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2000/03-10xbox.asp
Next time some moron points out the Toy Story graphics comment from Sony that has become near legend ask them who said. Ask them for a link or a copy of the text. I bet you they wont be able to find it. Why is that? Its commonly believed the famous near Toy Story level graphics comment came from an overzealous game magazine trying to hype up Sonys next system or from an interview with George Lucas (yes, that Lucas) that was done before PS2 launched in Japan. I have yet to see any proof that Sony themselves said it.
That being said I am going to just assume here that Sony did say it. So, once again I ask, so what? Companies always hype up and stretch the truth for new hardware in the videogame and PC world. Thats life. You want to open your mind a little? Read this:
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,40970,00.html?tw=wn_story_related
Thats right. A quote from Bill Gates himself claiming the Xbox would do the level of detail in Toy Story 2. So, yeah Haha
So whats my big point with this rant? Lay off Sony guys. They dont do anything any different then any other company does in this industry. The PS2 has been an extremely solid game machine. It has easily had the strongest library of games this generation. Is that not all that matters?
-Peace
Jason @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
"What they forget to mention is that the Xbox's GPU can do 140 GFLOPS (the PS2 and PS3 have no GPU)"
Ummm, no one knows for sure yet what the final specs of MS's GPU will be. Oh and Nvidia is creating a GPU for use in the PS3. Please do a little research before you post misinformation.
Jason @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
"What they forget to mention is that the Xbox's GPU can do 140 GFLOPS (the PS2 and PS3 have no GPU)"
Ummm, no one knows for sure yet what the final specs of MS's GPU will be. Oh and Nvidia is creating a GPU for use in the PS3. Please do a little research before you post misinformation.
Carmi @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
I still don't think IBM and Sony would have invested what they did for a "mere" game-playing processor. There's a deeper underlying strategy behind this project, and I suspect we haven't even begun to understand precisely what that is.
In a perverse sense, perhaps IBM and Sony are also still figuring it out. Either way, the influential factor cannot be discounted here. Intel, AMD, and other more marginal processor vendors are obviously watching this story very closely. That alone means we should be watching, too.
Carmi
http://writteninc.blogspot.com
Ian Jardine @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
Jason is right about the Nvidia graphics chipset for the new CELL.
I have been very puzzled with all the CELL hype as it has largely failed to mention Nvidia's role in the PS3. Undoubtedly Nvidia's chipset will help make or break the PS3. Why don't we see more discussion and/or info on this?
Jason @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
"Jason is right about the Nvidia graphics chipset for the new CELL.
I have been very puzzled with all the CELL hype as it has largely failed to mention Nvidia's role in the PS3. Undoubtedly Nvidia's chipset will help make or break the PS3. Why don't we see more discussion and/or info on this?"
I would assume the main reason is because Nvidia and Sony has not leaked much info this yet. All we know if Nvidia is creating a GPU for use with PS3. I have a feeling the GPUs in both the Xbox2 and PS3 will be fairly close to each other in terms of performance. It's going to boild down to things like Ram and CPU speeds that will create the big differences (if any) between the two machines. That and PS3 will use Blue-Ray for storage while the Xbox2 is sticking with DVD.
Brandon Paddock @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
Jason, I was referring to the specs of the Xbox 1 (140 GFLOPS), not the next-gen console (will be greated than 1 TFLOP, which the current crop of GPUs do handily).
Second...
Nvidia is NOT producing a GPU for the PS3.
Nvidia has entered into an agreement with Sony by which they will provide assistance with the design of the PS3's graphics subsystem. Sony has confirmed that the video engine in the PS3 will be produced in-house, possibly using technology *licensed* from Nvidia.
However, Sony has said that they are committed to their "everything in software" approach to graphics rendering. Thus, until Sony says otherwise, it is assumed that the PS3 will continue where the PS2 left off and devote nearly all of its resources to the main processor (and vector engines).
Having both a Cell processor and a PC-like GPU (with hardware Transform and Lighting) would be redundant. They basically do the same thing (albeit in different ways).
However, the PS3 will most certainly NOT have an Nvidia NV5x chipset inside it, as some overzealous fans immediately assumed when they saw Sony and Nvidia in the same press release heading.
Jason @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
Looks like a Nvidia GPU of some type to me:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/editorial/display/ces2005.html
So I ask, what am I missing here? I'm sure it won't be just a "tossed in" GPU like they provided for the Xbox, but it sure seems to me like they are saying a GPU of some type will be added to the PS3 from them. It's still a "Nvidia GPU" even if it's just their design to be created inhouse by Sony.
Brandon Paddock @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
Well, we won't know for sure until they tell us.
But until I am told otherwise by Sony, I'm going to remain convinced that the PS3 will not have a geometry engine in its video processor.
I figured we may see hardware vertex and/or pixel shaders show up, as well as Nvidia's AA and AF techniques. But a geometry processor in addition to CELL? I find that odd... It just doesn't make sense in my mind. But I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Either way, from what I'm hearing about the Xbox 2's chipset, there will be some very *different* design choices made there as well (embedded DRAM, a new kind of flow control, unified shaders, some kind of direct cache access, and so on).
My point from my original comment remains...
You cannot directly compare any one component of these systems to determine which is "better." There are going to be significant architectural differences, as there were in the past generation. Having the "bigger number" isn't going to win you this competition. The proof will be in what they do with the power they have.
Jason @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
"You cannot directly compare any one component of these systems to determine which is "better." There are going to be significant architectural differences, as there were in the past generation. Having the "bigger number" isn't going to win you this competition. The proof will be in what they do with the power they have."
No one would argue that. Hell, the Xbox2 may end up making better looking games then the PS3. I don't care that much as I will buy both. Only reason I have favored the PS2 this generation is because of its flood of high quality games to choose from. Some of my favorite in years have been PS2 titles. My Xbox has been a lot of fun too. So as I always say, it's all about the games.
That being said, it's important to also remember that the Xbox is around 18 months newer hardware then the PS2. I'm always in shock of how people make such a big deal of the fact that Xbox games tend to look better then PS2 games. What did people expect? 18 months is a HUGE amount of time in the graphics/PC/tech industry. Hell I am suprised the PS2 has managed to hold up as well as it has. Look at games like GT4, Jak 3 and MGS3. Those easily stand up to anything the Xbox has put out. To me, that's amazing. I think it shows that at the end of the day the "crazy" hardware design Sony created for the PS2 might have given the system some major birthing pains, but it has paid off in the end. No way that system, being 18 months older should be producing games that even compare to what the Xbox is doing.
Fishie @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
With regards to Jasons comments:
I am a videogame jornalist and witnessed the Sony hype machine first hand.
Sony is incredibly apt at using straw men and indirect hype to do their bidding, that being said here are some actual quotes from Sony employees about the PS2 before it launchd:
As important as the invention of the printing press.
Its like Jacking into the matrix.
Generational leaps beyond the curve.
Apart from those they threw out a few fake press releases which got picked up by smaller sites and from there to the mainstream press.
It was claimed that US congress wanted to stop production becouse PS2 was a supercompute and therefor couldnt be exported(completely missing the fact that it wasnt even a US product), it was claimed that Saddam had ordered a bunch of launch PS2s for his WMD programs(wonder what happened to those) etcetera.
No one plays the hype game as well as Sony and yes Sony is the worst offender there is.
ElCapitanAmerica @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
#12
> As important as the invention of the printing press.
Yeah, and we have to believe that from an anonymous post on the internet from a game "journalist" with no person being attributed the comment.
Sure.
Jason @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
I wrote freelance for a videogame fansite for a couple years. That made me a "journalist" too. ;)
All kidding aside, I never said Sony does not hype their game products. They do, big time. I just dont see how they are any different then MS or Nintendo in this regard. That's just a fact. Or do you really think MS won't talk about XNA and the Xbox2 at E3 as if they where the 2nd coming of Christ?
Hype is hype.
I'm still waiting to see an Xbox game that looks anywhere close to "three times" as good as a PS2 game. :)
E6_Carbon43 @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
lol capitan,
He is the head of journalism for gameinformer didnt you know... ;-) cough
Jason is right though, I believe that the quality of the games as an experience (not just their graphics) is the most important part of a game machines sucess. Nintendo (disclaimer: I'm not a "fanboy") has proved that time and again. people sure were'nt playing space invaders and pong for their realistic graphics... in comparison with the real world. It is fair to say then that "it's all about the games."
I dont doubt that Sony will have an effective way of rendering graphics, though I'm more inclined due to their relationship with nvidia that it will be based somewhere off cell.
Cheers,
Daev
Joey Geraci @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
Am I wrong here, or is it still not confirmed that the xbox 2 will not have a next generation dvd drive. All we have is the speculation of the inquirer to prove that. I agree that it will be very difficult, next to impossible for microsoft to ship the xbox 2 with a next gen drive this year, but if anybody can do it, they can, and I just don't think that they will let the ps3 be so fundamentally ahead of them in hardware as that. They will find a way, even if they lose a lot of money on each system at first.
And does anybody know the type of cpu that the xbox 2 will have? I am pretty sure that it will have an ati-based gpu, but I haven't heard any talk of the cpu it will have.
Rusty Gates @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
I remember Sony's hype about Ps2 being a supercomputer. I also recall the "possibility of PS2 containing stolen US military technology" being the reason for PS2's delayed US launch. Sony lobbied to have PS2 classified as a supercomputer (it wouldn't have made the list in the 80's), but couldn't even get the EU to classify it as a computer.
Sony's hype machine is second to none.
Remeber the Sony press releases when Dreancast came out? They trashed Dreamcast as an inferior system, but PS2 is the inferior one.
So much for the "PS2 came out first, so naturally it is weaker" excuse.
Xbox games that look and play 3 times better than PS2 games? Ninja Gaiden, the DOA series, Unreal Championship series. I played Vice City on both consoles, and yes, the Xbox PORT runs 3 times better and with 480P, looks 3 times better. PS2's ram couldn't even handle the frame buffer for most Xbox games.
The Xbox is built with the Intel 733ssi, which wasn't a cutting edge processor at the time. I believe Intel released that chip BEFORE the EE engine came about.
Sony's decision to go inhouse with it's hardware as opposed to outsourcing like Nintendo, MS and Sega was purely a finacial one. They had all of the developers locked up, so why try harder? They were right. They made a ton of money selling a design driven by profit greed rather than putting out the best they could. I'll bet Nintendo and Sony wish they had taken MS up on their 1999 offer to provide a gaming OS and development platform for their consoles, if only to keep them out of the console business.
Right now, MS is driving the industry. They determined the time frame for the next gen because each Xbox is such a big dollar loss. MS announces XNA, and suddenly Sony starts to train developers on how to program for the PS2 AND gets Nvidia to work on development tools for PS3. MS brought online console gaming to life while Nintendo and Sony ignored it. Remember, the original PS2's released in Japan don't have the rear bay, so it is obvious that Sony redesigned it in response to MS. They didn't sign the hard drive development cintract with seagate until 2001. Coincidence?
People can rail against MS (as I do for their practices in the Os business), but they have done alright by me with their console. I used to be a Sony fan until I saw PS2 in action. It wasn't a great leap foward. I didn't even open the two I had bought. Instead, I sold them to Sony sheep at double the price.
Some things can't be explained.
Fishie @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
For el captain America:
I didnt see you deny the other quotes and info I posted, anyway here goes.
"You can communicate to a new cybercity," gushes Ken Kutaragi, the visionary behind the PlayStation. "This will be the ideal home server. Did you see the movie 'The Matrix'? Same interface. Same concept. Starting from next year, you can jack into 'The Matrix'!"
"It's historic, a mass-market appliance that fundamentally changes society in the way the printing press did," says Trip Hawkins, founder of Electronic Arts and CEO of 3DO. "This is a new canvas for humanity that takes us back to our nature."
As for my credibility, feel free to email me at ali@the-nextlevel.com , also feel free to do a search for Almaci Hasan Ali on The Next Level where you will find a bunch of interviews with people like Shigeru Miyamoto, Yuji Naka etcetera.
You will also find that my scribblings have been published on IGN/Gamespy, 1up, Got Next, Kikizo games as well as a dozen or so different videogame magazines worldwide(one of em Ironicaly OPM2, the official Plystation2 magazine over here) and that I have provided coverage of last years E3 for RTBF a European TV broadcast company and most likely will cover E3 this year again for broadcast TV.
Believe what you want, my credentials though are easily checked up on and are available for all to see.
I witnessed the Sony hype machine in action and am witnessing it again and contrary to what you seem to think I am not some sort of idiotic fanboy who has an axe to grind with Sony, to the contrary considering my relationship with them is quite good.
Brandon Paddock @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
Every console is going to have hype. That's a given. Although I must say Microsoft has done a good job not talking too big about it way in advance... whereas as Sony has already been talking up the PS3 for years and we still don't have any idea when it's coming.
Furthermore, I never said that the PS2 or PS3 architecture was "crazy" or in any way inferior to more traditional designs... I just wish people would understand that they're not directly comparable. I think what will define the next generation of consoles (besides the games, which is obviously the biggest make-or-break factor) will be the innovation. I think anyone who ignores online play or a hard drive (or other permenant mass storage) is crazy.
Jason @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
Some of you guys are acting like Sony killed your dog or something. ;)
Racky @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
hehe sorry, but all this reminds me of the old Atari ST vs Amiga wars... Ahhh the fun we all had! (till the PC bit back)
Personally I'm putting my bets on the XBox 2's tried and trusted Processor/GPU architecture, somehow the Cell seems too much like a 1980's Transputer chip... Don't forget people actually have to write code of these pesky things!
Rich @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
Well put Jason!
Kamalot @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
Games don't make or break systems. Hype does.
If all you needed for your console was great games, everyone would have a Dreamcast.
Jazon @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
These are some of my favorites:
"PS2 will become a basic platform for the Net. It will become a machine that transcends the differences of nation, race and sex."
From your mobile phone, you send an e-mail telling the machine to turn up the air-conditioning at home. "Welcome home," it purrs when you open the front door; it then puts your video e-mail on the TV monitor. You command the PS2 to download the movie you want and play it 30 minutes later. Mid-film, you stop to cue up a video game featuring the movie's main characters. Then you e-mail a virtual friend you met online who also likes this game; you face off against each other.
The high-powered chip generates polygons, tiny geometric figures critical for 3-D graphics, at a rate of 66 million per second (the original PlayStation, considered fast when it was launched, generated just 360,000 per second).
*The funniest part about this is that the chip in real-world games only spits out atounr 6.6 million polygons, 1/10 of they they claimed*
http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/2000/0320/japan.sony.html
norman @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
Apple seem to be excited about the cell, I've just read now that Apple are looking to make a deal with Sony and IBM for their use in the cell in future apple mac computers.
Guybo M. @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
To over-hype your new system and say hokey crap like "near-Toy Story graphics" is one thing. This is expencted and everyone should take this type of little white lie with a grain of salt no matter who said it. We expect these untruths.
What gets me are the big lies- like GT4. I have yet to see a real screenshot for this game! Every screenshot you see is from the developers machine and is very enhanced. They add FSAA to each shot and cleverly cover up mip map boundaries and poor linear filtering. This sort of thing sells units and is just plain wrong. It's like showing Anna Kournikova in a Russian brides ad and Olga Fuglyschnozz shows up on your doorstep. It's false advertising.
When you look at GT4 screenshots remember one thing: the PS2 will never "magically" get FSAA and most of the screenshots out there are blatant lies. They put these sorts of things out and the kiddies believe what they see. I am sure GT4 will look swell and all, golly gee- but let's not fall for the big lies and keep the little ones in check too.
Gamespy lie: http://ps2media.gamespy.com/ps2/image/article/526/526276/gran-turismo-4-20040624103010208.jpg
Some sort of Euro lie:
http://www.italracer.co.za/images/gran-turismo-4-20040625030624328.jpg
The NExt Level of BS:
http://www.the-nextlevel.com/features/next/ps2/gran-turismo-4.jpg
what do these all have in common? No jaggies!
Guybo M. @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
To over-hype your new system and say hokey crap like "near-Toy Story graphics" is one thing. This is expencted and everyone should take this type of little white lie with a grain of salt no matter who said it. We expect these untruths.
What gets me are the big lies- like GT4. I have yet to see a real screenshot for this game! Every screenshot you see is from the developers machine and is very enhanced. They add FSAA to each shot and cleverly cover up mip map boundaries and poor linear filtering. This sort of thing sells units and is just plain wrong. It's like showing Anna Kournikova in a Russian brides ad and Olga Fuglyschnozz shows up on your doorstep. It's false advertising.
When you look at GT4 screenshots remember one thing: the PS2 will never "magically" get FSAA and most of the screenshots out there are blatant lies. They put these sorts of things out and the kiddies believe what they see. I am sure GT4 will look swell and all, golly gee- but let's not fall for the big lies and keep the little ones in check too.
Gamespy lie: http://ps2media.gamespy.com/ps2/image/article/526/526276/gran-turismo-4-20040624103010208.jpg
Some sort of Euro lie:
http://www.italracer.co.za/images/gran-turismo-4-20040625030624328.jpg
The NExt Level of BS:
http://www.the-nextlevel.com/features/next/ps2/gran-turismo-4.jpg
what do these all have in common? No jaggies!
Guybo M. @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
To over-hype your new system and say hokey crap like "near-Toy Story graphics" is one thing. This is expencted and everyone should take this type of little white lie with a grain of salt no matter who said it. We expect these untruths.
What gets me are the big lies- like GT4. I have yet to see a real screenshot for this game! Every screenshot you see is from the developers machine and is very enhanced. They add FSAA to each shot and cleverly cover up mip map boundaries and poor linear filtering. This sort of thing sells units and is just plain wrong. It's like showing Anna Kournikova in a Russian brides ad and Olga Fuglyschnozz shows up on your doorstep. It's false advertising.
When you look at GT4 screenshots remember one thing: the PS2 will never "magically" get FSAA and most of the screenshots out there are blatant lies. They put these sorts of things out and the kiddies believe what they see. I am sure GT4 will look swell and all, golly gee- but let's not fall for the big lies and keep the little ones in check too.
Gamespy lie: http://ps2media.gamespy.com/ps2/image/article/526/526276/gran-turismo-4-20040624103010208.jpg
Some sort of Euro lie:
http://www.italracer.co.za/images/gran-turismo-4-20040625030624328.jpg
The NExt Level of BS:
http://www.the-nextlevel.com/features/next/ps2/gran-turismo-4.jpg
what do these all have in common? No jaggies!
Guybo M. @ Dec 19th 2005 1:04AM
sorry 'bout that, I got a little click happy