We got our chance to have a little
private time with
TiVo's
new 80-hour dual-tuner Series2 (TCD649080) last week. There isn't a whole lot we can tell you about the unit that
you didn't already know (dual analog tuners, single digital, no CableCARD, no high def, integrated Ethernet, etc.). In
other words, for those expecting something to ease the pain of the absentee
Series3 box, you'll probably want to look elsewhere for something
to meet your needs, perhaps a Media Center PC. But if you have analog cable and were thinking about snagging a TiVo,
you might want to take a second look.
As you can plainly see, this TiVo box
doesn't look much different from any other TiVo box. In fact, aside from some slight aesthetic tweaks and the
ever-so-slight rear port switchup, everything here is standard issue -- including the remote and 7.2 software release.
So yeah, the dual tuners are pretty much the only functional difference once you get the thing booted. TiVo is pretty
up front about what it can tune and how: one cable box, max. Which means if your cable company only offers digital
cable (like ours), you'll only be able to use a single tuner with that single cable box.
If you want to record anything else you'll have to set up an old school antenna and tune in via
RF. (TiVo called to let us know this thing won't tune RF -- yick.) If you have digital and analog on the same
line, you should be fine recording digital and basic cable simultaneously -- but we don't have that. Luckily we
happened to be on the road while reviewing this device, which allowed us to test the two tuners with analog cable. We
understand that some people can tune basic and digital simultaneously -- if so, this box still works out well for you
if you, as long as you're not trying to get around scheduling conflicts on digital cable.
TiVo seemed to know this whole dual
analog tuner thing might be a point of contention with their customers, who might be looking to tune two shows at once
and don't have (or want) analog cable. TiVo addressed the matter at hand by justifying the design decision in their
press materials. Besides stating that adding dual digital cable tuners would carry a "large cost," TiVo
perceived such a system's benefits to be small. Sez they, "For digital cable subscribers, we believe that in
actual use, not being able to record shows from two digital cable channels at once is less of a limitation than it
might seem. Many shows on digital cable channels are repeated several times during the week, so if the user cannot
record a show on a digital cable channel due to a conflict with a show on another digital cable channel, she will often
have the opportunity to record a future re-airing of the show." That's about as weak an excuse not to include a
functionality we can possibly think of. Expanded digital cable channel rerun schedules aren't much different from basic
cable's; that argument could be used to justify why all other TiVos to date never had more than one tuner, and actually
argues against any reason one might have to want a box with dual analog tuners. But hey, the box is what it is: a dual
analog tuner TiVo, love it or leave it. We thought it was pretty good.
Integrated Ethernet in
2006. Welcome to the future.
Basically, so far as we could tell, everything
was in its place with the Series2 DT. TiVo ToGo and all the multimedia functions were still right where they were
supposed to be, the options were the same, everything felt right at home. This, of course, had to do with the fact that
as we mentioned, this device is a standard software release 7.2 TiVo. There were two working differences, so far as we
could tell. First: when in the on-screen program info popup, there's now a new icon (see above), which you can use to
see what's up with the second tuner. Second: pressing the live TV button while watching live TV now switches between
tuners instantly. Seriously that's it, that's all that separates this from a regular TiVo box. For the TiVo
uninitiated, new users might not even realize that this device was special.
So what'd we think? Well, it
worked exactly as advertised, and that second tuner was totally seamless. So the question isn't how good was the
Series2 DT -- it's really no better than any other TiVo on the market right now, this isn't like a tossup between a
Series2 and a Series3 or Media Center PC. The question you is: how much is that second tuner worth to you? After $150
rebate and service activation, is $199.99 for the 180-hour, or $99.99 for the 80-hour too much?
Well, if you didn't have dual tuners (or two TiVos), you'd never be able to record Everybody Loves Raymond
reruns at the same time as getting your Judy fix.
Then again, all TiVos still excel at what they
were originally invented to do: pause live TV so as to capture awkward facial positions.
posted Apr 25th 2006 1:05PM
"pause live TV so as to capture awkward facial positions."
So wait, this device is NOT able to record one input from a digital cable box and one from an analog RF cable feed?
It just breaks my heart. That dual digital tuner thing is still a deal-breaker for me, and I used to LOVE my Tivo (before it completely fried, that is). Let's cross our fingers and hope Series3 gives me reason to throw out my Time Warner box...
from what i can tell, you can record from one digital cable box and one analog cable feed. the post is just poorly worded, i misunderstood myself. (which maybe is less a product of the article being poorly worded, and me just reading too fast). but basically what they were saying is that if your cable company ONLY offers digital cable (and does not offer analog) then the only way you can use the dual tuner is to hook up bunny ears.
Regarding dual tuner functionality:
The Series2 DT DVR can record from two basic cable channels, or one basic cable and one digital cable channel, at once. It does not support recording from two digital cable or satellite channels at once.
Pony
Does the TiVo know which channels can be tuned in as analog channels and which have to go through the digital box, and intelliegntly manage them for you? In other words, can it decide which program to record via which tuner without the user having to think about it? What's it look like when you tell it to record two digital channels at once?
I don't think there's any cable company that ONLY offers digital cable. You can ALWAYS split the cable coming out of the wall before it goes into your cable company digital settop. Then take one output from the digital settop box into your dual tuner Tivo, and the other output from where you split the cable, and voila, dual tuner. You'll record analog signal on one side, and digital on the other. So you can record HBO and CBS at the same time while watching something else.
This thing blows. My Moto 6412 from comcast does dula digital with high def already. Why would anyone by this thing? Is TIVO's GUI really worth the 100-200 dollar boxes AND 17 bucks a month subscription fee??
"The Series2 DT DVR can record from two basic cable channels, or one basic cable and one digital cable channel, at once. It does not support recording from two digital cable or satellite channels at once.
Pony"
Thanks, as always, Pony! That's what I thought it would be, until this article confused things for me.
Well, here's the problem - You have to look at this from a consumer support stand point. How do you control two digital boxes off one device with infrared. If they were serial control - ok, I could see it working. Because TiVo mostly relies upon using IR to send signals to the boxes, if you have two next to eachother - you'll be recording the same thing.
This creates a support nightmare. The way they have it setup now, most places, it'll work great because so much of the digital cable stuff is echo'ed in analog, most places as far as I know still do this for extended basic. So one tuner gets extended basic, the other tuner gets digital. I don't think it's asking all that much.
I'll be holding out on both HD and the dual tuner series 2 - in hopes for the Series 3 hd.
-Alex
You guys were kinda liberal with the unnecessary criticism, Ryan.
It doesn't have "a digital tuner" at all. It has one tuner--there's one RF-In. What it has that current Tivos don't have is two MPEG-2 capture circuits, and the ability to control the built-in tuner and a cable-box simultaneously. If you are using a cable box with an existing Tivo, the video comes in through either the composite, S-Video, or RF jack. With the new Tivo, you can get the cable-box feed through S-Vid or Composite, AND run a live analog cable feed into the RF-IN--and the Tivo will be able to record from both at once thanks to the MPEG-2 chips.
In order to record from "two digital tuner" you would need two CABLE-BOXES, and circuitry for independent control of both by the Tivo. Which they could probably have done, but they are right: who in the world wants a second cable box? I don't want ONE! And since the first 100+ channels of most cable systems is analog anyway...
Oh and G-Money, you are aware that 95% of the TV-watching population doesn't have HD, right? And I don't know about your cable, but around here (DC/VA), the "HD digital DVR" service from Cox and Comcast run an extra $20 a month ($10 for the HD box, $10 for the DVR upgrade). I think I'd rather shell out $200 now and $13 (not $16) for monthly service AND get Tivo's much better GUI, more reliable scheduling, home-media features, and TivoToGo. With no random lock-ups or restarts.
Jake -
From TiVoPony's posts over at the TiVo Community forums, this box *does* have two tuners internally AND two MPEG encode paths. The incoming RF is just split internally. So, you can record either 2 shows simultaneously with no cable box at all, or one off the RF feed and one from an attached cable box.
To #10 (Jake)
A small correction, there are apparently TWO analog tuners (in other words, RF sections) inside the unit.I make a point of this because, like others, I use analog cable and no cable box.
Side bar: I think Tivo is right; dual digital tuners will only be practical when CableCard is well adopted throughout. I personally just want a cheaper HD Tivo that supports QAM.
Gee, I hope there are other reviews on the internet cuz this one was pretty useless.
As others here have said, I came looking for some information on these boxes and didn't get it.
1) It has dual analog tuners. But presumably if I hook up a digital cable box via S-Video or whatever that replaces one of them, since it can't record three channels at a time. How does this work? Is there a "first tuner" that you see when you hit the Live TV button and that's the cable box one?
2) If I have a cable box AND have hooked up a split cable feed to the box via an RF input, how does the box decide which tuner to use to record something? Does it use the analog tuner whenever it can, leaving the digital capable cable box path for me to watch something else more flexibly (and also get the analog channel tuned more reliably than with IR) or what? What if there are both analog and digital versions of the same channel--does it know that these are the same channel? I assume not, but if it does you might prefer the digital version be recorded. Which means there might need to be a preference setting for which tuner to use if there is a choice.
3) The pictures aren't high enough resolution, but I don't see a serial interface back there for the MOT DCT 2000. Is there one?
Like others have said, I am unaware of any cable companies that (yet) provide only digital cable. And since most people watch the extended basic channels (ABC, CBS, ABC, FOX, WB, UPN, PBS, etc etc) most of the time, seems to me like having two tuners would be quite useful.
Seems like they should find somebody else to preview their boxes with.
To JAke,
My comcast HD/DVR only costs me an extra 9.99 a month, and I DIDNT HAVE TO PAY FOR THE MOTO 6412. My sister has a tivo that i bought for her 2 christmases ago and I dont understand the fasination with it. It can only record 1 channel! Whats the point of recording something YOU ARE ALREADY WATCHING?
Yes i am aware that a majority of TV viewers dont have HD but I would presume that the majority of TIVO's customers are videophiles on some level that value the tv watching experience which would mean to me that they have the latest and greatest A/V Equipment. I dont know, they should have just skipped to the dual tuner HD config.
And just to add i have no issues with my 6412.
At the risk of being completely off, can this system also do digital over the air (OTA) reception, or is it suited for analog/digital cable and analog OTA reception only?
I still have trouble getting onboard a geeky-cool piece of technology that offers "advanced" features like these that are limited in their usefulness. As for myself, I'm firmly planted in the 5% minority (although you should check your numbers), where dual-tuner HD lives. 1 box (not 2, or 3- yikes!)
BTW- Cox and Comcast can't turn off the HD in their boxes, as best as I know. Order DVR service only, and avoid paying for the HD programming that's already there...
What about network performance? The older Series2 boxes were forced to pipe everything through a USB 1.1 port. This meant it took HOURS to move an episode of The Boondocks to my PC. Conspiracy theorists said that this was a cheap DRM scheme (ie. most people wouldn't bother to transfer recordings). Is the new ethernet fast or is it crippled in some way? If it's fast I am upgrading to this new box today.
Jake, I have to take issue with your HD comments. This thing could iron my shirts and cook me dinner but if it doesn't record HD it's worthless to me. (I'm sure I'm not the only one) I'm sorry, but if Moto and comcast which aren't exactly the fastest moving companies can outdo the creator of this technology then its pretty sad on Tivo's part. Oh yeah, here in Chicago the comcast DVR costs $9.99 including the DVR rental.
" I'm sorry, but if Moto and comcast which aren't exactly the fastest moving companies can outdo the creator of this technology then its pretty sad on Tivo's part."
Well seeing that the only way TiVo will be able to dual(for quad) record Digital cable is via Cablecard, it's kinda out of there control if Comcast want to go and take what they created and say they created it...after all Cable is just the Telephone Industry 2.0....
It's not about how much "cable" you can record. The simple thing is that it cannot control two external boxes of any kind. This ability would have added trivial cost to the price of the unit, since it already has two MPEG capture chips.
That means you can't connect two satellite receivers. And everyone knows the primary reason for choosing a TiVo is as an alternative to some other (uglier) PVR.
Controlling external boxes with IR is done with IR blasters or buds (stick-on emitters) that will only be seen by the device you stick them to. You can have a whole wall of identical devices and control them all with emitters if you wanted to.
I suppose none of this matters anyway, as TiVo's current subscription-only model is a deal-breaker and will likely lose them more money into the future. So it's up to SageTV to fill the gap for now, even if its UI stinks compared to TiVo's.
BTW, TiVo subscribers get first dibs on an 80-hr TiVo Package that includes 1 year of TiVo service for only $254.
So it looks like lifetime is gone, TiVo isn't no willing to throw in a year or two service in with a bundle...
I'm not upgrading to the Series3 until TiVo comes to its senses and brings back the Lifetime Service "option". There is no reason to believe TiVo cannot exist without exclusively offering the subscription model. The more TiVo units out there working means more aggregate data and the option to sell additional services to both the customers (the consumers) and advertisers/content owners.
The truth is, TiVo cannot turn a decent profit because it lacks economies-of-scale to drive down the component costs of the units. And thus TiVo needs to sell itself out to Apple if it wants to survive beyond living off patent royalties. Just remember, Atari Corp. thought it could survive in the videogame and computer industries just by suing their rival game competitors based upon the patents earned by the original Atari Inc. It didn't last long.
These units should have had CableCard slots to deliver "dual tuner" status for digital cable. Digital cable is what is being pushed today. Analog cable is the domain of the Spanish language channels. And the customers who stay with analog cable aren't the types of customers who will shell out $17 per month just for the luxury of using a TiVo. They'll go with the crap the cable companies provide instead, just as they chose Windows based computers over Macs and other alternatives in the 90s.
Wake up, TiVo. You are really cheesing off your formerly-loyal customer base.
My area is served by Comcast and you must have a digital settop box in order to watch cable tv. So for me, this product is almost pointless. The nice thing is the built-in ethernet. Welcome to the future indeed. For me, two tuners will only be useful when they can either A) control two seperate cable boxes (not my preference) or B) accept cable card. At this point I don't really care about HD. Even after the analog turn off in 2009 (wanna place a bet that gets changed again?) digital cable and sat will still be serving video to our plain old 4x3 analog screens by down-sampling. Analog broadcasting may be going extinct, but NTSC is gonna be haunting us for a decade or more. So, although the Series 3 sounds interesting, the HD is overkill for me and the Series 2.5 or whatever this thing is, isn't enough. The LEAST TiVo could do is to provide control circuitry for two different settop boxes.
For those who say "But they'd interfere with each other's IR signals" I say you obviously haven't read the TiVo manual inwhich they show installing two tivos in your livingroom and tenting their face plates to prevent IR signals from crossing over. Ugly solution. But it's better than paying Echostar.
How I'd hoped Echostar would be forced to license TiVo. *SIGH* Say it with me: "Dish's PVR software sucks rocks."
Am I the only one who is amazed at the finger strength of the person holding the TiVo in mid-air? ;-)
I sold my Tivo when Comcast offered their DVR Box as I wanted Hidef recording and 2 digital tuners. It does that but that's about all it does. The Tivo's Guide was so much better. Season passes actually worked and the tivo never missed a show. THe comcast box is constantly recording second runs despite me telling it not to. And because of it misses first run programming. I have to check the scheduled recordings every day. Something I never had to do with Tivo.
I have an Adelphia (SoCal) Motorola DVR with something called "Moxie". I have had a tivo, and a HTPC. I have to say that paying ten bucks a month is so worth being able to have Lost recorded in HD for me when I get home. The cable companies really took Tivo's idea and ran with it. My DVR has had less hiccups than my computer set up, and the interface is wicked (when you go to the main menu, the video is shrunk to the corner).
However, cable service(tv and internet) is way too expensive, and the way they run their company is completely retarded. I think they just got lucky when some smart third party sold them an awesome product.
The Comcast DCT6412 HD Dual Tuner DVR cablebox is quite possibly the worst device ever developed by humans. When you think about all the QA processes companies put in place, the money spent on personnel to check for errors, the people that go to school solely to become inteface designers, the myriad levels of managers that have to sign off on a project in order for it to advance (my friend used to work at GAP and they would literally spend weeks arguing the nuances of a .1mm change in the diameter of a jeans button), the amount of blood, sweat and tears that hundreds of people must endure to make the shifter handle on your sports car feel just right, and so on...and then you have the DCT64XX.
Just ask yourself this: Someone at Motorola actually wasted their breath when they uttered this about the DCT64XX, "Ship it."
Special note to G Money: you are right to praise your Moto 6412, since its user interface was designed and built for clever people like you.
You asked "what's the point of recording something you are already watching" as a way of complaining about Tivo's single tuner. I guess Tivos are for lesser mortals with actual obligations in life and less free TV-watching time than you. These poor sods are forced to record TV shows when they're off doing something else.
Note to B: analog OTA only. Digital OTA would require an ATSC tuner, which presumes HD capabilities.
I really just don't get it. Tivo and Replaytv was so cutting edge when they first came out. Now our sucky cable and satellite companies are whipping their tails. Just goes to show you why both of these companies will are going out of business. If tivo thinks it can hold onto its customers by being at least 3 or 4 years behind on this technology, its only a matter of time before tivo will end up being replayed!!
#6 -- of course it will.. Season Passes are channel-specific, so obviously you'd have some on digital channels and some on analog channels, and your season pass ordering would determine which records. For WishLists, who knows which it picks (if you have the same channel on digital & analog).. I can see arguments either way.
#14 -- we're not watching what we're currently recording.. We're watching something else PREVIOUSLY recorded while recording something else. (I have two standalone Tivos, as well as a non-Tivo hard drive/DVD recorder.. all can do this). Of course you CAN also watch what you're currently recording, but that's by far the least frequent thing.
#15 -- no digital OTA (it has no digital tuner).. That will be series 3 and the existing HD DirecTV/Tivo.
#16 -- it sounds like you're just talking about QAM-encrypted HD. It's similar to "broadcast" channels on cable.. AFAIK, it's covered by 'must carry' rules, that's why you get HD "free".
#20 -- if you want to connect two satellite receivers, get a DirecTivo, or one of EchoStar's DVRs, both of which have dual tuners internally and are cheaper than Tivo's service (if paying monthly.. of course loooong time DirecTV customers could have had lifetime already)
#23 -- I really really doubt you HAVE to get digital. At the very least, they are legally REQUIRED to have a bare minimum lifeline cable service, even if they don't advertize it.. That is mostly broadcast stations. I strongly suspect they would also have an expanded basic with most of the analog cable channels you can think of..
Boy I wish this system had a real quoting option..
It's a lot easier for the cable company to add features to their set-top box than it is for Tivo to add them in an additional box. That's a cold reality.
CableCard should help this in the future.
"Whats the point of recording something YOU ARE ALREADY WATCHING?"
Some of us do like to get up off the couch every once in a while . . .
I know the reality of the Comcast Cable Box, but… OMG… I f_cking hate that f_cking cable box!!!! Yes that’s 2 f_ckings to emphasize the amount of hatred I have for it.
Comcast SAYS they are going to upgrade the interface… BUT THEY NEVER DO. For 3 years, nothing but talk and bullsh_t. Instead of the sound cutting out when you’re recording a program, NOW, after 1 year, the sound cuts out while you’re simply watching it. I guess I made the mistake of pressing the play button, dam what was I thinking. It’s good to know that $100 dollars a month buys such quality. This is the second box.
Seriously, how hard is it to get a couple kids in their basement to program a better interface with controls that ACTUALLY WORK. With all the money that Comcast has, make it a contest; the programming team who can produce the best software interface, gets $20,000 dollars tax-free. Believe me, guys will be standing in line.