2007WFP experiencing severe banding on gradients?

It's difficult at this point to tell precisely how many people are experiencing the issue due to the intense echo chamber that are internet forums, but a number of Dell customers have begun complaining about severe color banding issues on their new 2007WFP. The banding, as mocked up above using a screen shot of the issue, apparently makes normal color gradients impossible, kind of like knocking your monitor back down to 256 colors after all these years. There a number of Anandtech (1, 2, 3) and Dell forums (linked below) threads on the topic; one user blamed the LG panel, as the issue has seemingly cropped up in some shipments of the L2000c, their 20-inch widescreen presumably based on the same panel, while others are claiming it's the DVI input. Anyone here seen this issue themselves, care to share your experiences?

[Thanks, Ciber]

[emor8t @ Apr 26th 2006 9:07AM]

All the dell monitors ive seen have some color banding which is ridiculous. My NEC is flawless and the ancient AOC monitor i have does gradiants perfect even though the color is going. Dell monitors are crap.

[ronnie @ Apr 26th 2006 9:13AM]

I have one along with 4 of my friends, none of us have this problem. For under $400 (on sale) this thing is the best deal out there.

[siliconcenturion @ Apr 26th 2006 9:19AM]

http://home.comcast.net/~rrighetti/CheckeMON.jpg

thats the color gradient test from the thread
on my 2005fpw the very bottom line has very slight gradient marks

[Bob Walters @ Apr 26th 2006 9:27AM]

I have one and love it... If I did have a problem I'm sure they would repair/replace. Agreed... Dell is the best value on the market.

Dell Rocks!

[Mark @ Apr 26th 2006 9:58AM]

No problems with my old 20" widescreen Dell, works fantastic. Haven't seen the new ones in person, but if it's anything like LG LCD TV's...

[Intrepid @ Apr 26th 2006 10:03AM]

Firstly AppleFanBoy - shutup you tool, you go give jobs a 'job'.
And yeah I have a similar problem on my 2007WFP.

[Ian @ Apr 26th 2006 10:32AM]

I wonder how long they used the monitors before doing these tests? When I recently got an LCD TV, the picture looked "posterized" on faces for a few days. I was pretty disappointed.

But after about 12 hours use (not all at once!) it's now much better - almost like it can now manage more different colours, which would fit the banding issue.

Ian

[Aleks @ Apr 26th 2006 10:37AM]

Sucked in for being a cheapskate and buying a Dell!

[JavaMoose @ Apr 26th 2006 10:39AM]

I love when Apple fans talk crap about Dell monitors - when they both use the same panels...

[Aleks @ Apr 26th 2006 10:40AM]

and no problems with my 23" apple display :)

GOING STRONG!!

http://homepage.mac.com/aleksivic/.Pictures/setups/walker.jpg

[Jeff @ Apr 26th 2006 10:57AM]

"and no problems with my 23" apple display :)"

Speak for yourself. I'm using the same display as you and I don't get a smooth gradient on the bottom strip.

and btw, Apple displays use the same panels as Dell.

I'm not convinced that's *supposed* to be a smooth gradient. The pattern is too regular. Perhaps these panels just display this test pattern properly, whereas most displays are incapable of it.

[Ryan Block @ Apr 26th 2006 11:01AM]

Jeff, that is supposed to be a smooth gradient. Look at the irregularities, and, of course, read the source article.

Best, Ryan

[pixelate @ Apr 26th 2006 11:02AM]

how much do you want to bet that the fanboys don't realize Apple uses the same LG panels that Dell does? pipe down.

[Mosquito Control @ Apr 26th 2006 11:03AM]

Very slight gradient marks on my laptop.

And yes, as mentioned, most Dells and Apples use the same LCD panel.

[Faruk Ates @ Apr 26th 2006 11:08AM]

Since the Apple Cinema Displays use the same LG panel as the Dells, one would attribute this to Dell's color calibration or manufacturing, and evidently _not_ the LG panel � unless Apple displays had the same issue, which they don't seem to do.

[Jeff @ Apr 26th 2006 11:17AM]

"Jeff, that is supposed to be a smooth gradient. Look at the irregularities, and, of course, read the source article."

I don't see any "source article". I see links to a bunch of people whining on discussion forums.

I looked at the test pattern posted above, which shows the luminosity range of a single color. There should only be 256 possible values for this - hence, there will never be a smooth gradient. If you're seeing one, the only two possibilities I can think of are a) your vision is impaired, or b) your monitor is not reproducing these colors accurately and is bleeding one value into the other.

Those complaining on those discussion boards seem to all also be looking at test patterns reproducing gradients of single colors (and yeah, I looked at the screenshots some people posted, which are at best inconclusive). I'll repeat: there are only 256 possible values for luminosity for any given color. This is why we call these "8 bit panels". (A 6 bit panel would be even worse.) Three colors with 8 bits per pixel each will reproduce 16.7 million colors. But any single color only has 256 possible values.

Note that this is also true of what most video cards are capable of reproducing. Analog connections, such as VGA, as well as analog displays like CRT, have a tendency to bleed colors together. But this is not accurate.

Unless I'm missing something, this all seems like much ado about nothing. Somebody apparently found a test pattern somewhere and freaked out when it didn't look exactly like they expected.

(Note also that the first post on the Dell forum is of the "I heard the 2007FPW has banding problems, anyone experience this?" If that's not an obvious troll, then I don't know what is.)

And again, I see the exact same thing on my Apple Cinema Display HD, as I would expect to.

[Ryan Block @ Apr 26th 2006 11:23AM]

Again, Jeff, I suggest you read further into the forums posts on the matter. The abberrations and other shots of banding issues should help you to better understand the problem -- if, in fact, there is one.

Best, Ryan

[Ben Chess @ Apr 26th 2006 11:43AM]

Jeff, look at the image URL below from the Dell forums, and I think you'll agree that there are way less than 256 discrete levels for the colors in the image. It's more around 50-60. Granted, jpeg-compressed digital camera shots of a monitor are likely to be a little inaccurate, but if this is what this monitor actually shows, it is really bad.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~json/stuff/blue-grey.jpg

My Samsung monitor doesn't look anything nearly this banded. If your Apple Cinema display has the same problem, you should get it replaced.

[iptydafu @ Apr 26th 2006 11:44AM]

Ryan Block's on fire! -Wa'ch'out! (it's likely just the dvi connection anyway)

[Ethan T @ Apr 26th 2006 11:49AM]

This test pattern is not a valid test, as mentioned by Jeff. The secondary reason is that it's a JPEG, which means it's lossy-compressed and there's no guarantee that color information will be accurately reproduced. The main reason is that some people can tell the difference between two shades of 1/256th and some can't. Because the image is not a true "gradient", some people will always see banding on the bottom row.

Since voltages represent shades for each channel in an analog connection like VGA, they have the ability to be truly gradient. However, the voltages coming from a video card are posterized to 8 bits (256 unique values), meaning that you can't really test the display's abilities. The only way to produce a true gradient with an analog display is using an analog VGA test pattern generator, not a computer as a source. Even then, digital displays can only be tested to the ability of their input's (say, DVI) bit range. According to Wikipedia, DVI supports only 8 bits per channel, so you're not going to do any better unless you use a dual connection that is meant to provide 16 bits, and I'm guessing that's a rarity.

[zorg @ Apr 26th 2006 12:02PM]

I see where you're confused. Here's how it werx:

1. Apple takes panels meeting its quality requirements from LG

2. Dell takes the remainder at a reduced price

3. People with / without good eyesight are both happy!

[Peter @ Apr 26th 2006 12:43PM]

The test is valid. The program represented in the photos is gradlin. Start with the program to check, so JPG is not part of the issue:

http://xtknight.atothosting.com/tools/gradlin-v0.2-fs.exe

Every second row will reproduce a smooth continuous tone with CRT and most LCDs. Even 6 bit dithering panels are doing a better job than Dell 2007 over DVI.

Run the above (esc to exit) and compare with this jpg. This is clearly a problem that is not normal. My dell 2405 was smooth not like this at all.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~json/stuff/blue-grey.jpg

Other notes. Everyone who actually tested the Dell 2007, has the problem. Many of these people actually have other LCDs that are fine. Dells older screens are fine. A tiny amount of banding is tolerable nothing to this scale.

Also it is almost entirely cured by going to the RGB analog connections.

Conclusion: Manufacturing defect with DVI input on Dell 2007fp fpw monitors.

[Peter @ Apr 26th 2006 12:51PM]

One more very good comparison review with a viewsonic:
http://www.widescreengamingforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4203

Includes 4 sets of gradient shots: Viesonic VGA, Viewsonic DVI, Dell VGA and Dell DVI.

Which the phots are not as good as the one above, clearly illustrates this is a problem with the Dell through DVI.

[Ciber @ Apr 26th 2006 1:03PM]

I see the banding in a lot of places, not just these tests.

On my mac i see it in LCDTEST and frontrow. I see it on my xbox 360 using the vga cable in pgr3 and battlefield 2.

[Court Kizer @ Apr 26th 2006 1:48PM]

Yes of course there is banding.

THE ONLY PEOPLE EXPERIENCING IT.

1) Don't have a proper DVI Cable.
2) Don't have a proper video card.

It really is that simple.

Dell shouldn't even include VGA connectors on these things really. And for those of you who have banding go out and gasp buy a DVI cable that cost $50... Problem solved

[Guess Who @ Apr 26th 2006 1:54PM]

I have noticed similar banding in what should have been smooth color gradients on my new 37" Vizio LCD HDTV. Particularly noticable in sunsets. However, it does not happen all the time, leading me to wonder if it might also have something to do with the amount if information in the signal. I am taking an over-the-air HD signal with my rooftop TV antenna, not a cable feed, BTW.

[Ciber @ Apr 26th 2006 2:28PM]

#27, You're an idiot.

1. It's a digital connection.
2. It happens on vga.
3. I've tried different vga and dvi cables on 3 different 2007WFP's with multiple sources.
4. There are like over 400 posts about this issue between Anandtech and the Dell forum. I seriously doubt we all have faulty cables and crappy video cards.

We also have two 2005FPW's that don't show this banding.

One more thing... keep your mouth shut if you don't know what you're talking about.

[hastings @ Apr 26th 2006 2:34PM]

I hope you're kidding about not including VGA connectors on their monitors.

Nearly every consumer computer (and laptop) that have been released and will be released in the coming years come with a standard VGA port, not a DVI port.

Cutting out VGA would be like removing USB ports in favour of Firewire 800, the market hasn't caught up yet.

Besides, we can't expect everybody to be as enlightened as us, can we Kizer? ;)

[droopy1592 @ Apr 26th 2006 3:46PM]

#27 Court Kizer, you didn't read any of this at all, did you? EVERYONE that has the monitor and has posted a picture of their gradients (even ones that say their monitor had no banding issues) show banding. It's not a video card or cable problem if all other monitors don't display the problem that the 2007wfp does. Do you understand simple deduction?

[Kev50027 @ Apr 26th 2006 4:42PM]

I have the non widescreen version of that monitor (the 2007FP) and I took a shot of the screen showing a variant. There is very slight banding.. I am using DVI, should I return the display? I just got it last week and I believe everything else about the display is great.

Here's the screenshot:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v367/Kev50027/Variant.jpg

[Peter @ Apr 26th 2006 5:52PM]

That is entirely up to you. If you have used it for some time and didn't notice, perhaps it will never bother you.

Don't think you are going to send back for a replacement. All the Dell 2007 fp/wfp do this. The first time I saw the problem it was a guy who tried three different 2007fp models. All had the same issue.

[s0u1snatch3r @ Apr 26th 2006 6:17PM]

#27 truly is a fool to suggest what s/he did, but not everyone pays attention.

#32 (kev50027) - your banding issue is the same as my 2007WFP's. Everything about the monitor is fine, and except for that banding issue (which would get better or worse, depending on what I view on the monitor). I'll probably RMA mine unless they issue a recall.

Does anyone notice a sort of crystalline effect when looking at something that's pure white? I wonder if this is a defect of some sort or whether it's supposed to be that way.

- snatch3r

[s0u1snatch3r @ Apr 26th 2006 6:23PM]

Oh yeah, here are my screenshots, taken with a Canon A420:

http://s0u1snatch3r.googlepages.com/2007WFP.color.banding.DVI_01.jpg
http://s0u1snatch3r.googlepages.com/2007WFP.color.banding.DVI_02.jpg
http://s0u1snatch3r.googlepages.com/2007WFP.color.banding.DVI_03.jpg

By the way, there are pictures 4, 5, 6, too, but I haven't posted them as only 3 URLs are allowed per post.

- snatch3r

[stephan @ Apr 26th 2006 6:57PM]

I have the 24" DELL and its the best thing since sliced LCD displays. Love it. 30" would be nice but most video cards wont even display full resolution at 30"

Stick to 24".

[Nogami @ Apr 27th 2006 4:02AM]

I just checked my 2405 and it's silky smooth - no gradient issues. It looks like perhaps the 2007s are using something less than 24bit processing to drive the panels. I tried mine at a 16-bit depth (65k colours) and it was noticably worse than in the photos people have been posting.

Perhaps it's some sort of wierd 20-bit processing (guesstimate) in the monitor that's downconverting the DVI signal before it hits the actual display driver?

23. BTW, you've got that wrong - Apple and Dell both pay the same price for the panels, but Apple marks their product up by %20-%40 knowing that their customers will pay the difference for an "Apple Product" and a metal casing.

[Joram Oudenaarde @ Apr 27th 2006 7:14AM]

All you folks who are saying that Apple's Cinema Displays and Dell's widescreen's are the same are delirious.

Yes, they do use the same monitor, but it's also the software that counts.
People who don't understand that should keep it shut and stop shouting at other people.

Dell widescreen's could be good yeah... they have everything it takes to be a fantastic screen. But it's the software which drives the screen that isn't all that good. I'm not saying that Apple's Cinema Displays are the best, but talking about something you know nothing about is just silly.

[Daniel @ Apr 27th 2006 1:55PM]

Arn't the Dell panels using a different backlight? Yes, they use the same panel as Apple's but different components in the back as noted by Arnand?

[ben @ Apr 27th 2006 7:08PM]

I just ordered 39 of the 190fp's for a corporate setup, and quite a few of them had similar issues, a few had even odder issues... Dell just isn't a quality product, it's a shame, it's pretty nicely designed otherwise.

[Brian @ Apr 28th 2006 3:40AM]

"Dell widescreen's could be good yeah... they have everything it takes to be a fantastic screen. But it's the software which drives the screen that isn't all that good. I'm not saying that Apple's Cinema Displays are the best, but talking about something you know nothing about is just silly."

You don't seem to know a whole lot about it either. Dell doesn't manufacture their own LCDs - not the panel, not the monitor. Check the UL file number on a 2005fpw and you'll note that it's manufactured by LG.

Dell also didn't design the monitor chipset - that was Genesis. Nor is it particularly hard to drive a panel with DVI, for that matter.

Before you spout off about how Dell's "software" is crap, look at Anandtech's comparison of the Cinema Display 20" and the 2005fpw. Anand took actual readings and found that the color accuracy of the 2005fpw was actually slightly better than the Cinema Display.

I got a 2005fpw for $440. With the educational discount, the Cinema Display 20" is still $700. I paid $260 less and got a display that is height ajustable, can rotate 90 degrees, has VGA, composite, and S-Video support, can do picture-in-picture, and has great picture quality. Dell even sent me a new display (overnight) when my original display had a stuck subpixel.

Now, if there are problems with the 2007fpw, then it may be a display to avoid. But Dell monitors can be some of the best values in the industry.

[Neil @ Apr 28th 2006 4:55AM]

256 colors?! You mean there are more than just amber and black? Sweet christ. I guess I need to upgrade my Leading Edge model D 8088.

[Sean D. @ Apr 28th 2006 5:47PM]

My 2405fpw had slight gradient problems in Windows XP with the standard nVidia Detinator drivers installed (1920x1200 @32bit) with my 6600GT. After a few months, I decided to try nVTweak to activate the Quadro switches, and in addition to getting an ever so slight display boost in Maya, my banding problem magically went away too.

Surprised at this, I hooked the monitor up to my iBook, and found that I had no banding problem with the Mac! A driver problem sounds unlikely, but that seems to be what it was in my case.

[bandito @ May 2nd 2006 3:23AM]

2007fp, 2007wfp and 2407wfp all suffers the gradient banding through dvi. It is therefore the electronics handeling the dvi input and processing is at fault (HDCP?). I can attest to the 2407wfp problems. Reviewers should pay close attention to this, and DELL should acknowledge the problems and issue a statement/fix.

[ccfoodog @ May 10th 2006 5:09AM]

Reading this thread, I couldn't help but notice lack of exploration of variables outside of the LCD.

I noticed on avsforum.com a post called "Color Banding with NVIDIA 6600GT?" which talked about the same problem, but indicated the problem cropped up for them when changing the video card.

I also recalled a test done at tomshardware.com called "The TFT Connection: Do NVIDIA and ATi Deliver?" where they noted that in general, Nvidia seemed to do worse with their DVI output.

So that leads me to wonder what video card and cable everyone is using. Seems like it would be interesting to see if there is any relationship between the card(s) and the problems.

It also seems like it would be interesting to try swaping the video card on a monitor that exhibits the problem with a different card/cable and see if the problem changes.

-john


http://www.tomshardware.com/2004/11/29/the_tft_connection/
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=520608

[Felipe Ledesma @ May 11th 2006 7:32PM]

The problem is not only seen with DVI, but with VGA also. It�s a problem with the monitor.

[Taika @ May 21st 2006 9:36PM]

This is a real problem, I don't know why people have brought Apple into this discussion at all. The banding is noticible while playing dvds, gaming and viewing websites with gradients. It is not the dvi cable, nor is it the graphics card - I have tried two other displays an HP 1905 and a Dell 2005 on my PC and neither display this level of banding. The problem is more noticible over DVI than VGA for obvious reasons. Many of us have been trying for the last month to get Dell to acknowledge the fault and resolve it, returning monitor after monitor and calling several times a week, it's good to see sites like this bringing it up.
Snatch3r - I do have the crystalline effect on light colours, I assumed it was a coating on the screen or something.

[JimBob @ May 24th 2006 1:28PM]

I bought the new Dell 2007 FPW monitor and I have not had any of the above described problems. I have the Samsung 12ms panel, and no banding is present. After talking with our firm's vendor hardware dispatch, we've found that %99 of these issues dissappear one the monitor is powered off for a full 24 hours.

I use the VGA input, side-setting DVI and it still looks great on my x850XT PE.

Please give that a shot, and I hope it helps.

[charles bittner @ May 24th 2006 3:40PM]

I just got two of these i can see the banding on gradients, it is noticable, i had one next to my Planar 19inch, it was way smoother gadient on that lcd. at some point i believe this will become a class action law suit. If dell fails to resolve it by fixing the screens. they are great lcds except for the banding. in photo shop use the gradient tool, it is good for showing this problem

[Geoff @ May 25th 2006 6:57PM]

Dell is committed to serving our customers.

We have received feedback from some customers regarding our 2007FP, 2007WFP and 2407WFP monitors regarding uneven color bands on some images. This effect is known as "banding.” It is due to the Adaptive Color and Contrast™ (ACC) and Active Color Management™ (ACM) feature of the Faroudja video processing chip. For general usage, ACC and ACM technology found in this chip is known for delivering impressive picture details and optimal image quality across a multitude of monitor usage modes.

Dell has a tested a firmware update that adjusts the ACC & ACM features, eliminating the banding issue when using the DVI input in Desktop mode. All of these monitors have three display modes: Desktop, Multimedia and Gaming. The firmware turns off Faroudja video processing in Desktop mode. It remains enabled in the other two modes. Essentially, the updated firmware allows users to choose whether they want the Faroudja video processing feature on or off.

Starting today, we have updated units with the new firmware to ship out on an ongoing basis, and will look to fulfill customer requests as quickly as possible. For details on how to proceed, you have two options: email me directly at [e-mail], or visit the Dell Community Forum.
http://forums.us.dell.com/supportforums/board/message?board.id=dim_monitor&message.id=56617

Sincerely,

Geoff
Dell Customer Advocate
[e-mail]

[Sven @ May 25th 2006 8:17PM]

Just so we are all clear and that idiotic apple fanboyism can stop.
I have a 2007WFP and it has banding. I have a 20" cinema SteveJobs. It has banding as bad if not worse than the 2007wfp. so stfu about quality control over at apple. My PowerWacG5 freezes once a day.

[Geoff @ May 30th 2006 1:19PM]

I have updated the link to the community forum, as it has changed.

We have received feedback from some customers regarding our 2007FP, 2007WFP and 2407WFP monitors regarding uneven color bands on some images. This effect is known as "banding.” It is due to the Adaptive Color and Contrast™ (ACC) and Active Color Management™ (ACM) feature of the Faroudja video processing chip. For general usage, ACC and ACM technology found in this chip is known for delivering impressive picture details and optimal image quality across a multitude of monitor usage modes.

Dell has a tested a firmware update that adjusts the ACC & ACM features, eliminating the banding issue when using the DVI input in Desktop mode. All of these monitors have three display modes: Desktop, Multimedia and Gaming. The firmware turns off Faroudja video processing in Desktop mode. It remains enabled in the other two modes. Essentially, the updated firmware allows users to choose whether they want the Faroudja video processing feature on or off.

Starting today, we have updated units with the new firmware to ship out on an ongoing basis, and will look to fulfill customer requests as quickly as possible. For details on how to proceed, you have two options: email me directly at [e-mail], or visit the Dell Community Forum.
http://forums.us.dell.com/supportforums/board/message?board.id=dim_monitor&message.id=57101

Sincerely,

Geoff
Dell Customer Advocate
[e-mail]