TiVo Series3 and JVC receivers throw DRM fit

Wouldn't you know it. After paying for anger management sessions to deal with those repetitive delays, finding out it wouldn't work right with your shiny new plasma, and wondering if the thing was even worth the $800 to begin with, we've got yet another reason to pass on TiVo's almost-excellent Series3. If your box hasn't been plagued with issues just yet, we sure hope you aren't the proud owner of a JVC receiver, or you could be facing more of those ever-present DRM snafus. During CNET's testing of the Series3 box with the JVC RX-D702 receiver, things were going perfectly smooth as the TiVo streamed video / audio to the JVC over HDMI, and separate monitors via composite / S-Video -- until they switched over to HBO HD. Programming on this channel, as well as HDNet and Universal HD, yielded a gray screen complemented by a (presumably enraging) message stating: "Viewing is not permitted using the TiVo Digital Media Recorder. Try another TV input." Further investigation (read: hitting the "Info" button) spilled the beans on the DRM-laden troubles, as testers were greeted by a statement declaring "regulations of the copyright holder" the villain. While the "glitch" would probably be a non-issue had TiVo included TiVo To Go on the Series3 boxes, the almighty media providers would have none of that, and currently, the problem can only be solved by swapping out your (presumably costly) HDMI-equipped receiver for another brand. Chalk another one up for the content guardians.

[Via Thomas Hawk]

[Chris @ Oct 11th 2006 10:56AM]

The media empire is screwing up everything.

[Josh @ Oct 11th 2006 11:14AM]

well who woulda thunk that the Tivo Series3 came with HDCP? Coulda seen that one comming a mile away.

[hmurchison @ Oct 11th 2006 11:16AM]

I stopped being interested in Tivo when they began to kow tow to the industry. I want a PVR not some watchguard sitting on top of my TV screwing things up. It'll only be a few years until some low cost options will rival what Tivo offers sans the headaches.

[snark @ Oct 11th 2006 11:32AM]

And yet there are still suckers out there willing to pony up the $800 plus monthly subscription fees for this crap. Will wonders never cease with fools and their money.

[Rick @ Oct 11th 2006 11:42AM]

I'm one of those suckers and I love my Tivo s3

[Popstand @ Oct 11th 2006 12:04PM]

Irrelevant on a gadget blog. For example, my girlfriend thinks people are crazy for paying for most of the stuff on here, but that doesn't stop me from wanting just about all of it.

[JS @ Oct 11th 2006 11:39AM]

I'm willing to bet the problem is not the receiver but the DVR. Did they actually try other receivers?

I've encountered this about a year ago. It occurs from the receiver sitting in the middle of the handshake path. The DVR enforces the HDCP lockout, not the receiver. Scientific Atlanta's 8300HD DVR had the same problem with HDMI relayed handshaking until a recent firmware update that was pushed to subscribers.

There is no need to return the receiver. Simply plug the HDMI cable direct to the display and run a digital audio cable to the receiver. You still only need two cables and it's cheaper as well.

[Jason @ Oct 11th 2006 12:41PM]

If your TV only has one HDMI input you might have bought that receiver to be able to input HDMI from your Tivo S3, and your Toshiba HD-XA1.

[Tommy @ Oct 11th 2006 2:36PM]

So as I understand it, as long as you keep the signal from the Tivo in the digital domain, as opposed to analog, there are NO PROBLEMS WITH THE TIVO --- Right??

[JT @ Oct 11th 2006 11:41AM]

Meanwhile, HD versions of all major TV shows are available on torrent sites around the world. Corporate suits are always 2 stations behind...

[ptran11 @ Oct 11th 2006 12:24PM]

There aren't many people who would d/l a 4 gig file for an hour long show. There aren't many torrents for TRUE HDTV formatted shows.

[nomayo @ Oct 11th 2006 11:43AM]

The series three delivers HBO-HD perfectly fine via HDMI to a TV. Has anyone considered for a moment that the JVC receiver might be the issue here? If the JVC doesn't support HDCP, that sounds like a failed implementation of HDMI on their part. Remember that the CableCard determines the copy protection for a given program. The TiVo is just doing what it has been told to do by the CableCard. Bottom line... The TiVo is functioning as designed here. The JVC receiver is not. BTW: Who spends $800 for a DVR but skimps and buys a JVC receiver???

[Chad @ Oct 11th 2006 11:56AM]

This is the kind of thing that would make me want to throw a screaming temper tantrum, two-year-old style. This is why DRM is so absolutely infuriating to me: I'm not trying to pirate anything, I JUST WANT TO BE ABLE TO WATCH CONTENT THAT I'M PAYING FOR. I shouldn't have to rewire my home A/V system because of HBO's "content protection."

But keep doing things like this, big media--it ensures that there will always be a thriving BitTorrent community where I can get all this great programming without the problem of DRM.

[andy @ Oct 11th 2006 12:49PM]

CBS, ABC, NBC and FOX all trasmit HD content over the air in the clear for free.

The solution for me looks to be dropping HBO-HD from your overpriced cable service.

TIVO s3 is awesome. The built in upscaling to HDMI and optical sound is really convenient too. Count me as one of the idiots who uses his like a religion. Since my time is billable, I've made up wellll over 800 bucks by not trying to accomodate a tv schedule.

[adam @ Oct 11th 2006 12:51PM]

DRM is bad, hopefully joe blow will "react" by refusing products and services infected with DRM.

[LA Dave @ Oct 11th 2006 1:08PM]

Apparently the receiver appears to be the issue, not Tivo S3.


See this part of the CNET article:

"Indeed, when we took the JVC receiver out of the mix, things seemed fine: we couldn't get the gray screen to appear when using the Onkyo TX-SR674, the Belkin PureAV 3-in-1 HDMI Switch, or the Gefen 2:8 HDMI Distribution Amplifier (the only other HDMI-equipped switchers we had on hand), nor could we see it when running the TiVo directly to any of several HDTVs currently in our inventory. Likewise, returning to the JVC RX-D702B yielded the same problem. Perhaps more instructively, the newer JVC RX-D411S (which had just arrived in the CNET Labs) had the same problem when linked to the TiVo as well."

Maybe people shouldn't waste their money on the crappy JVC receivers.

[wtf @ Oct 11th 2006 1:31PM]

Heh, if only there was a way to determine ahead of time if the receiver you're about to buy will never cause bizarre DRM problems like this...

[Pip @ Oct 11th 2006 1:28PM]

It's funny that all these "problems" have absolutely nothing to do with Tivo. Every single one posted so far has been the fault of some other equipment one way or another.

I know you guys hate Tivo for whatever reason, but please do some fact checking before you end up in hot water.

[Richard Garfinkel @ Oct 11th 2006 1:35PM]

There is. It's called checking for HDCP compatibility.

[LA Dave @ Oct 11th 2006 2:08PM]

Amazon.com's product reviews suggest that the receiver may have HDCP issues.

http://www.amazon.com/JVC-RX-402B-Theater-Receiver-Black/dp/B000A81AT2

[G. Snyder @ Oct 11th 2006 2:01PM]

Problem #1 was buying a JVC receiver. Good god people.

[happy gilmore @ Oct 11th 2006 3:13PM]

screw tivo

[simplex @ Oct 11th 2006 4:33PM]

This doesn't sound like a glitch at all. This is what happens when you try to view HDCP content on a non-compliant TV. The TiVo box is doing what it's supposed to do by blocking video output. (And it clearly it is the TiVo box which is blocking it, just look at the UI).

[Kenny @ Oct 11th 2006 11:12PM]

It took 2 weeks, 4 Comcast installers, and 3 sets of Cable Cards to get our S3 working (totally Comcast's issue BTW), but it's such a massive improvement over the Motorola box it replaced that we're thrilled with it. Tivo is the only DVR I can stand.

[dan @ Dec 13th 2006 5:26PM]

I don't see what is so hard to understand in noticing the issue when connecting to any reciever not just the jvc in particular.Just after doing a couple of minutes of research on hdmi.org the issue is obviously in the cable box.i have both the ti-vo Series3 and the scientific atlanta dvr box and they work great with my jvc rx-d702b.Here is the simplist answer i can give any of you. next time do some research instead of going by anything you read in a forum or magazine....


Q. Some cable TV set-top boxes with HDMI outputs don�t deliver a picture to displays with HDMI inputs. What is the problem, and is there a solution?

In some cases, the set top box software does not activate or support the HDMI port. In other cases, cable TV set-top boxes don�t work correctly when used in conjunction with an A/V receiver (but will typically function correctly when connected directly to a TV or monitor). Investigation of some of these devices reveals that this is caused by an error in the way these set top box devices implement HDCP. Specifically, some of those boxes do not support "HDCP repeaters" (devices that pass along the signal to another device) such as an A/V Receiver or switch. We believe that this may be a problem in the initial versions of these products, and in some cases there is new firmware available that fixes this issue in HDMI (newer versions may already have this fix). We have been actively working with manufacturers to resolve these problems. We suggest that users contact their cable operator and request the new software to address these issues.