Steorn Orbo: canceled
By Thomas Ricker 
posted Jul 6th 2007 7:10AM
posted Jul 6th 2007 7:10AM
Holy snakeoil Batman, The Steorn Orbo exhibition has been canceled. According to a press release by Steorn CEO (and lead shyster) Sean McCarthy, the company "will explore alternative dates for the public demonstration." Yeah, right. If the heat from the lights was really an issue for the on-site built device, why didn't they: 1) turn off the lights, or 2) fly in the so-called working "free energy" device from Dublin? After all, they still have 9 days left to exhibit. Lame.[Thanks, Marc O. and Arthur D.]
The classic con.
Make outrageous claims
Offer to exhibt - gain hype
'Have diffulculties' - gain even more hype
Take the money and run.
Wait.... are you trying to tell me they may be lying?
Sadly yes, its ok though 'cos i've still got my shares in Infinium Labs.
Oh dude, but Infinium Labs made that sick looking lapboard. did that even make it to the market?
erm...yes...I've got one and ill sell you it for $1800. I'll even throw in free Orbo everlasting batteries
Nice, you got yourself a deal. But seriously did that thing come out? And if so, good, bad?
Seriously? No.
That sucks, the lapboard actually looked like a decent idea, unlike the Phantom.
http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/2007/07/video_of_qa_sean_takes_it_on_the_chin.html
This disappoints me to no ends....
Shocked! I am shocked I say!
soon there will be an announcement that the demonstration of orbo takes places the same day when Duke Nukem:Forever is going to be released :-P
Looks like they're busy trying to fix the problem!
mms://wm.Astream.net/steorn4
man, i have been watching the streams avidly all morning and nothing has been going on, i hoped to see some geeks trying to get this thing to work - me and my workmate had even contemplated going down there to see it in person, but looks like this has ended up being more dissapointing than waiting for the next series of lost to be ready.
chaz
This is very disappointing !!! Actually, this is a real waste of energy ;)
Man, I've been watching all night hoping that this thing would come together. I really hope these issues are real and not something to cover up a failed or faked product. I have hope, mainly because I WANT this to work.
I don't think it's a money scheme though, they weren't open to public investments so...We'll see what happens.
Besides I'd like to rub it in engadget's face for calling them shyters if it does, in fact, end up working.
i doubt engadget will be the only people using terms such as shysters regarding this, talking something up and then saying it dosnt work cos of the heat of some 12v downlighters 10ft away seems a little hard to swallow - i mean, when did magnets start being horribly affected by slight heat, i'm pretty close to some lighting now and i can assure you that i am anything but hot - its freakin freezing here in london at the moment... well not freezing but for our summer it is.
chaz
No, I definitely hear where you and engadget are coming from. It seems weird that they could in fact blame it on such a thing, but like I said this was one of the most honest set ups and it seems too public to be a pre-thought scam. Like I said, no third party investments or private testing etc. I just can't imagine someone would be willing to put their face and name behind a product if they knew it was a scam all along.
Honestly only time can tell, but I think it would be kind of harsh to not want this to work, ya know? It's like someone saying they have a cure for aids or something and everyone flat out calling them a liar before we can really say otherwise. As far as we know, this device hasn't been disproved, so I can still hold onto a little light in the matter. Until it's proven wrong, there's no point in being against it, they aren't raking in cash from it, they have everything to lose. Hell, these guys are getting threats. This better work or they're as good as dead, heh.
"don't think it's a money scheme though"
They've already recieved over £3million euros ($4million) in investments.
"this device hasn't been disproved"
Thats because there isnt anything to disprove. They've not released any information about it or demonstrated it. There was a good article on ZDnet about them which said:-
"it's pseudoscience. They don't have to have a theory for it to be science — in fact, it's clear that they don't — but that doesn't matter. Build a box. Show it working. That's enough. Hans Christian Ørsted showed electromagnetism in 1820 and it wasn't fully explained until James Clerk Maxwell's masterwork nearly 50 years later — but it was all science
It wouldn't even cost them that much. If they'll send me the plans, I'll build one. Having built it, I'll convince myself that it does produce more energy than it takes in — which will take a glass of water, a resistor, a thermometer, a couple of test meters and some basic mathematics, all of which I already have. I shall then get on the train to Cambridge and refuse to leave until the nice people at the Cavendish take a look at it."
Yeh, well you're coming at it like I'm stating the Orbo to be fact. I'm defending my hope in the product, not the product itself. I also said third party investments, you know, people that aren't a part of the project in some form. They aren't taking "the people's" money is what I mean. The only money invested is from the companies that would lose the money themselves working on it.
I think the best thing to do is wait until it has been fully tested by scientists and they have come to a final conclusion. No one knows for sure what's going on, not some dude on the internet (you, and myself) nor a website publication. Is it against the law of physics?; hell yes, but so weren't so many things in the past. We also used to be the center of the universe....
So, I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying, I HOPE they aren't full of it. That's all.
In early stage companies (or late stage companies in terminal decline desperate to find some revenue) the game is persuading existing investors to give a little more. That is what this is. Be willing to demonstrate, thus gaining some kudos, and then be able to point to unexpected failure, with some scientific waffle as an excuse. You need to think of the calibre of investor in Ireland at the moment. There's a UCD prof on record (see Utube) as saying that he was asked by a friend about this company a while ago because he had an investment opportunity, punting in about 250k. The prof told him to go elsewhere. A 20 man company if its careful is burning about 100k/month. You need 5 fools to keep you afloat another year.
Good point, still I'm just sitting on hope, I do believe there is a huuuge possibility that this is in fact a scam. I never ruled it out. Just like we all kinda hope Duke Nukem Forever is actually coming out, cause we're all sick of low res 10x10 "screen-shots" of walls, or whatever it is they tell us.
We all hope that something like this could be true, but the problem is that these guys are con artists. Whether their motive is money, fame or art is irrelevant. They are doing ireperable damage to people doing genuine scientific research and causing more harm than good. That is why its important that they are called 'shysters' etc.
ps
"We also used to be the center of the universe"
It's pretty ridiculous to compare the first law of thermodynamics to Geocentrism
I was just making the point that things in science change at a ridiculous rate, but if you feel the need to take offense, by all means. I'm having a good time. :)
I was once told that there is no such thing as fact as we do not know the basis of life. When we think we know for sure, we're wrong.
I could say I know that grass will be green tomorrow or that my pinky will reside on my hand and not my, eh eye or something, but I simply cannot know 100% for sure. He was also insane, but it is a valid point. Nothing is set in stone, and nothing is permanent.
Except of course the energy from this fabulous device...
@Chad Beaulieu
I just wanted to add a philisophical aside to what you've been saying. I agree with you that it seems like people in every epoch seem to think they have a lock on universal truths. Science right now has 'natural laws' which are immutable. Scientific theories have become doctrine.
But history has shown time and again that observed phenomena have their limits. "We are the center of the universe" was an observed fact until disproven by better science. "We are the center of the solar system" was again observed and accepted until disproven by better science; by more discrete measurements and better means of analysis.
To assume, yet again, that we understand everything about the universe; that "Natural Laws" are 100% fact, 100% immutable, 100% 100%, is to fall into the same arrogance and short-sightedness that makes ancient science laughable today.
Will science look back 500 years from now and laugh at our ignorance? Only if we insist today that we *know* we're right.
@ DorianGray:
No serious scientist will ever tell you that he thinks our current theories are 100% correct.
However, ever since physics entered the modern age, you'll notice that even though there have been tremendous revolutions in the way we look at the universe, the former theories were never really abandoned. Rather, we just came to realise that they were a good aproximation to reality, but one that failed under more extreme circumnstances (ie, near the speed of light, near absolute zero temperatures, etc.).
My point is, even if our current physical theories turn out to be wrong regarding energy conservation, I can assure you that the violation of the law will only occur on very particular situations, and on a very small scale (one that our best current tech can't detect). It will most certainly *not* be stumbled upon by accident as these Steorn guys claim.
@Vëon
"My point is, even if our current physical theories turn out to be wrong regarding energy conservation, I can assure you that the violation of the law will only occur on very particular situations, and on a very small scale (one that our best current tech can't detect). It will most certainly *not* be stumbled upon by accident as these Steorn guys claim."
By part of your statement you support my point. I'm not trying ot prove you wrong here, I'm trying to point out that our thinking is similar. As we develop ever more discrete and precise systems of measurement and mathematical models that fit and explain the observations, we can't help but discover "new" scientific phenomena and then develop & exploit technologies based on those discoveries. "New" phenomena that were always there but that were heretofore unobserved and unexploited. Science fiction is filled with devices and technologies that are so far undiscovered, but are being actively or passively researched and are accepted as inevitable rather than pure fancy. Examples include "near-future science fiction" such as room temperature and/or naturally-ocurring monopole magnetism, room temperature superconductivity, anti-gravity and "force" fields, to more fanciful (but taken as a matter of time & engineering) technology including terraforming, faster-than-light travel, inter-dimensional travel, teleportation/apportation, time travel.
And what's to prevent them from stumbling upon it? Microwave technology (as used in your kitchen, not the actual discovery of microwaves themselves) was stumbled upon by a RADAR engineer noticing that his chocolate bar melted when he stood in front of a radar dish. It's quite possible these Steorn folks are a couple of lucky yutzes who stumbled upon something amazing while farking around trying to build a better iPhone headphone magnet or something...
@DorianGray:
"Stumbling upon" a perpetual motion machine is hardly comparable to discovering that certain frequencies of microwaves can heat food, because there was never anything to suggest you couldn't. There's a heck of a lot of science which says you can't build a perpetual motion machine, so to "stumble upon" a way of doing so would be like accidentally building a car which can go at twice the speed of light!
As Vëon said - in the (I think highly unlikely) event that perpetual motion was found to be possible it could only be under extreme conditions, such as on a sub-micron scale or at close to absolute zero. There's simply no way a bunch of magnets and perspex at room temperature is ever going to do it!
People have been making these claims for a hundred years now. Most devices have had hidden batteries or other fuel sources, the rest were just like Orbo, non-functional frauds.
Free energy by its very definition is impossible. You just can not get something from nothing. Even at the big bang all the matter in the cosmos already existed, it was just ungodly compact, pun intended.
If the heat from the lamps was causing it to break. Why not turn on the central air?
What I'm more interested in is how this would be a viable energy source? If it breaks from the heat of the lamps, proposing it works at all of course, then the cost of keeping it cool would outweigh the savings.
OK people, I can understand you thinking this is a scam. But just clear something with me, HOW EXACTLY have they MADE money doing this?
Surely they have just spent investment money that they have borrowed, and will have to pay back (therefore LOSING money in the process of doing this project).
This is my assumption too. I haven't seen the exact numbers, but I gather they have not pulled in a huge about of capital (I think I saw $150M somewhere?). They've probably all been living comfortably, but it doesn't seem like they'd all be rich.
So if this is a pure money-making scam, they're not running it very well (so far).
Oh I forgot - no, they won't have to pay it back, if they were funded by venture capital. VC is generally made in exchange for shares or some controlling interest. It's also called "risk capital", because if the venture isn't profitable, the investor loses.
OK, I just wanted clarification on how their funding would work. (i.e. How the 'scam' works).
Relax. Guy.
These guys aren't being called shysters because their demo failed, and not because said demo was incredibly hyped. Many advanced prototypes have gone down that path some have rebounded and others have not. But what sets off the BS meter is the fact that in order for their energy device to work it has to violate what we currently understand to be basic laws of nature. For that reason alone, they should have gone to tremendous lengths not only to put their demonstration above reproach but also to make sure that it worked, since the only likely outcome to failing at either was to be branded a fraud. But they did not, and they failed. I think we'd all like to have a source of cheap energy, but it doesn't look like it'll be today with this device.
@Chad, There are plenty of ways to operate a money scheme that isn't open to public investment. Hard to say if it was a con or, like the unfortunate pair of Fleischmann and Pons, a case of over optimistic data interpretation...
Haha, ya that was a bummer.
Am I correct in understanding that this thing was built on site for the viewing? Not that it really explains it but is it possible they just botched it? Then again why wouldn't they work insanely to get it functioning etc... It's endless really. Like I keep saying only time can tell. And like I also said, these guys are like, gonna get shot if this is a scam :) . So for their sake, let's hope they aren't lying, if they are, someone go ahead and shoot.
I think the device its self could work, I just don't think it should really be called "free energy" from my understanding something has to get it spinning first, and once its spinning it spins on its own for awhile, at some point slowing down and needing a "push" again, sort of like a swinging pendulum, but instead of using a weight at the end of an arm/lever it uses magnets that repel eachother. Technically opperating in this fashion is not true "free" energy, being as an amount of energy is put into it to get it started. Though in a sense it is "free" energy, being as that it doesnt require (obviously now) any outside heat, as does just about any other form of power generation, no burning of fossil fuels or anything else, in that respect solar, wind, and hydro(from walling water, waves, or ocean current) power are all "free energy" sources I would think.
I think people are confused about "free energy" Energy from ocean, wind etc, would be considered "Renewable energy" and have thier basis from the sun. Geothermal energy is old energy leftover from the formation of the earth. (and possibly nuclear decay depending on which geophysicist you would listen to)
There is so much availible energy in the universe to tap, heck the universe is supposedly made of 70% dark energy. There's also so much quantum energy availible that it exceeds all the nuclear output on this planet in the space between one of these words on your screen. Question is how to harness it. And I don't believe these guys did it.
The more i think about this, the less i think these guys are cons/sheysters, or even just retards, and the more i think is that there is an artist behind all this.
Think about it. Imagine for a second that this was never a real device, but an art project. We have never seen an art project that was anticipated like this before where people all over the world are tuning in to see it through webcams, people are traveling to london to see this, and so on. Build up hype for years, and then when you do exhibit it, it is at an art museum focusing on the melding of art and technology(think using the internet as a medium for a gallery instead of a brick and mortar). When was the last time an art project was this hyped up and had people all over the internet debating on things like engadget, digg, the JREF forums, and a load of others. I am thinking this was art, and if it was, its genius. He has shown the internet as a medium to showcase some art, and by being professional enough, you can get a whole number of people behind you to believe anything. This is one of the few purported free energy devices to get any press, why? Maybe he just tried real hard to make this thing look viable by providing financial statements, pro looking website, etc etc etc.
So what say you? Genius artist, con artists, or bumbling idiots?
If it is art...Bumbling idiots. Anything but a working product = death sentence for these guys at this point. Genius art or not, someone is waiting at their houses with a grenade guaranteed. They better be able to take their little device and power their way into a third world country where no one can find them.
I suspect they are genuine, and genuinely wrong. They probably have something that appears to be OU, but that is in fact not. The likely culprit, as it usually is in these events, and there have been many many people who genuinely think they have something, is inaccurate measurement. The effect they are looking for is usually subtle, and the measurement very complex. There is a huge subculture amongst inventors focussed on this, and these guys use all the right buzz words, but the bottom line is they think they found something, they don't know what it is, and they think it's something other than it is. A part of me feels sorry for them - these guys will never work in technology again. Some ordinary staff who weren't around long enough will be able to pretend they were off travelling the world or something. They are technical Nick Leesons, funny enough another guy living in Ireland (and a guy who seems to be a very decent chap let me add).
That's exactly where I'm at. If they are wrong I at least don't believe it was malicious intent. I think they honestly believe they're on to something. I mean, what was their reasoning for stumbling across this again? Something like alternative energy for security cameras?
Con artists, but with slight artistic flair. But only slight. Some people haven't followed the activities of companies that do this kind of thing; I have, for decades. Steorn is just another group of people doing it. It always works, for a while--there have always been gullible people who will invest money in a venture where the perpetrators only have to generate a story that sounds good enough to the gullible--the story doesn't have to pass muster with people who are intelligent, well-read, and have some life experience in these matters--that's not the kind of people con artists are trying to bilk.
It looks like people never change.
-and if they do, they quickly change back. :(
-Oh sorry, I also wanted to add that Orbo cares not for your puny Earth Physics.
That is all.
What a sham. I have magnetic power that once started will continue indefinitely without any additional power needed...o wait, It doesn't work, uh sorry...
[IMG]http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q253/bamboozil/OhNoesss.jpg[/IMG]
> "We also used to be the center of the universe"
> It's pretty ridiculous to compare the first law of thermodynamics to Geocentrism
Actually it strikes me as a pretty good comparison.
Except it's the other way around: way back when people still believed earth is flat, they believed a lot more in free energy as well. There were perpetual motion machine designs by the thousands. And lots of them patented even.
Reality is harsh though: no free energy, and no center of the Universe :(
But... actually it's not that harsh when you think about it. We're bathing in hundreds of types of energy (geomagnetical power, nuclear power, sunlight power, wind power, foil oil power). All of this becomes power ready for us to use, if we just have the right technology to capture it and convert it.
And having great technology to convert *actual* available abundant energy is almost like free energy! Who'd need energy out of nowhere, if we had so effective sun batteries that could charge your car for 24/7 operation just by sitting in the sun 2 hours daily?
We also have the added benefit the Universe won't collapse unto itself from the weird paradox free energy would create.
suv4x4
Sir, I hate to say this, but you are an idiot.
"if we had so effective sun batteries that could charge your car for 24/7 operation just by sitting in the sun 2 hours daily"
Impossible, and not because we don't have the technology but because the energy is not there! Just supposing you had a perfect solar collector 1 meter square, in two hours the most it could get would be 2,732 watts - an amount equivalent to less than a litre of gasoline, enough fuel for no more than a few miles.
"Except it's the other way around: way back when people still believed earth is flat, they believed a lot more in free energy as well. There were perpetual motion machine designs by the thousands. And lots of them patented even."
This is really stupid, there was never a common belief that the world was flat, this is due to a story by Washington Irving and has no basis in fact. The ancient Greeks measured the circumference of the Earth to within a couple of percent, not really a productive exercise if you think the world is flat. There can be no patents from “then” because that time never existed. Also there will be no patents for machines which could never work, any that might have been erroneously issued would have been revoked.
"suv4x4
Sir, I hate to say this, but you are an idiot.
...blah blah talk about energy per square meter and gasoline comparison.. "
Thanks, for putting my "let's entertain the thought" hypothetical example under unneeded scrutinity and calling me an idiot.
I've not called investors to invest in my sun batteries though, I'm making my money by doing backend development. Hence, I should be allowed to not be very accurate with those things.
Nuclear power in your car also isn't practical, but yet we have a model where energy is generated in centralized nuclear power plants.
Simply computing the energy per square feet and comparing with gasoline is more idiotic in my mind, considering:
1. the car power generators need not be put on the car as stickers in the first place, and may not even be part of the car
2. you can have a one or two seat vehicles for in-city travel, with much less horsepower than waste much less energy to do the same typical job a current 4-seat sedan does nowadays.
3. the vehicle may use several weaker energy sources together to allow it to always be charged and ready in-time to handle typical load.
Well, watts aren't a unit of energy. A watt is a measure of change of one Joule (the actual SI unit of energy) per second. A kilowatt-hour is also a unit of energy equal to 3,600,000 Joules (1000 watts for 3,600 seconds). At any rate, the average solar output of the sun is about 1,340 watts, which equates to 1.34 kWh (kilowatt-hours) per hour (big surprise!).
A normal gallon of gasoline contains about 131 mega-Joules of energy, or about 36.4 kWh. So, to recoup the amount of energy in a single gallon of gas, you'd need a little over 27 hours of direct sunlight on a one square meter array with no obstructions. But who cares about gasoline? Gasoline engines aren't 100% efficient, anyway, so let's compare this to a real alternative (well, for rich people, anyway).
The Tesla Roadster gets around 200 miles on its' 56kWh battery. If it had 2 square meters of solar cells somehow pointed directly at the sun at all times, it'd recoup the whole battery in about 21 hours of daylight. But how many miles does that net you per hour of charge? About 9.5 miles. So, if you worked within 19 miles of home, and you stayed there at least 2 hours, you'd never have to buy a drop of gas again!
Unfortunately, because reality sucks we're limited to just 12% efficient solar cells, which means that you'd only get 1.1 miles per hour of charge, and honestly, if you live only 2.2 miles from your work, you'd probably be better off saving the $100k by buying a vespa, a golf cart or just walking it. :)
I would like to hear their excuses which will be presented at 3 PM at Kinatica, London according to their forum:
_________
Folks,
We have had to make the unfortunate decision to defer the public demonstration of our technology that was due to start on the 4th. I am very sorry that we have had to take this decision, I will provide a more detailed explanation of the reasons behind the decision later.
I would like to invite any of the forum members (SPDC or otherwise) who are in London to meet me at 15:00 here in Kinetica, where I will be available to answer any questions.
Very sorry about this, hope to see some of you at 15:00.
Thanks,
Sean
_____
I hope some people will ask though questions why there was no backup, no second attempt without lights on, dimmed lights etc..
Because there are a lot of p*ssed people who made the trip to London.
Well my dear friends, i can tell you guys that i lift weight for free and i never got that much advertisement!!!! Why? :P
Where the hell are my investiments? Where the hell is my money?
Dunno if its a hoax but it looks like someone had a few pints before looking at the orb and then said it was moving without energy... when the truth is that even a rock moves without energy if ur drunk...!!!
I actually phoned up the museum to find out what was going on and the receptionist told me he'd seen it working the day before.
I can't imagine he's in on the scam aswell. I'm sure they've got something great but whether or not it's what they're claiming who knows.
So, guys. I'm having some difficulty calling this one. At the very first moment, I thought these guys were for real (I've never heard of them before, and: I mean they were super confident and about to demo it at 6pm, right...).
Then researching they've been doing that for over 2 years and produced *nothing* for us to see, read, learn, except videos talking about "changing everything in the world", I thought they are just not very bright folks, and think they have something, but have nothing. You gotta check the videos as well. The "science" is hilarious, and can't confuse a high-grad student.
All evidence was they just spent their own hard earned money for working on this device, expensive magazine ads and so on. You don't give hundreds of thousands of hard earned cash if you believe what you have is worthless right?
But with the events unfolding last three days, I'm actually starting to nod down the fact this is an investment scam. Especially since it turned out they amounted well over 3 million pounds in *investments* from third party, which funded all the ridiculous PR they've produced for themselves.
Truth is, at this point, whether a scam or not, those investors will lose all of their money, and that's a 100% guarantee. It's in fact sadder if it's not a scam, in a way. Means Steorn self-scammed itself into complete destruction, taking a simple magnetic toy for world-changing free energy device.
The lesson is be "truthfully challenged" and rake the bux in, kids.
LOLZORZ
No, seriously. I have no reason to hope for this anymore.
Has anybody asked or wondered how they built the Orbo in the first place? If arthouse lighting causes the machine to break, I'm left to wonder how they build it in the first place? Were they building it in the dark or in a refrigerated lab? ...if they were, why didn't they demo it in one?
It's starting to remind me of a P.T. Barnum exhibit. I'm waiting to see the sign stating "This way to the fabulous egress! See the fabulous egress for yourself!"
I think it is cute the way everyone keeps posting lectures about the laws of thermodynamics, and why devices like this can never work.
If you're so keen on absolutes like the laws of thermodynamics, why can't you pick up on another absolute: there will ALWAYS be someone who disagrees with you, doesn't care about the laws of thermodynamics, and/or believes companies like Steorn will be successful if they just get that one last little bit of support (or cash) from that one last person.
Therefore, repeatedly pointing out that there are ignorant, foolish people in the world is a waste of energy. Heck, maybe Steorn has figured out a way to tap into all the useless "hot air" generated by people arguing on the Internet and not knowing how to be productive.
Alright dudes, I'm p*ssed off but I'm a firm believer that free electricity must exist. The very notion that we can't use physics to our advantage, that we can't defy current beliefs to create a device that is OU if not perpetual, is absolutely proposterous.
I'll put myself in the firing line to sound like a crackpot or conspiracy theorist but that is exactly what the very people with a majority of the wealth and power want us to believe. Oil companies get rich off this notion. Vehicle manufacturers get rich off selling spares to repair your oil chewing motor engine. Electricity suppliers... well that one's obvious. Governments get rich off all of these companies.
Consider the fact that the Earth spins on it's axis, around the Sun along with the rest of the solar system, which spins around the core of the galaxy, which spins around the universe... Meanwhile on Earth's surface plants grow, rivers flow, rain falls, earthquakes shutter and volcanoes spew.
Oh, but wait, there must be some sort of energy input... It must take a hell of a lot of oil, or coal, or ethanol, or whatever your fuel of choice is to get that big machine to work.
We don't even understand our solar system yet so all the wannabe physicists who "know for a fact" a device can't be propelled by the forces of nature, please take a raincheck.
I hope Orbo is for real, but if it isn't I think it is time for us to open our eyes and challenge what we are taught about physics and energy.
Of course there is a lot of energy around to power "this big machine" and to make plants grow etc. but it's no mystical power that can be unleashed with Orbo's Con Man Device consisting of just a plastic wheel inside a plastic box.
The energy to "power" the plants comes from the sun, and it's from nuclear fusion and all the other movements in the big machinery can almost completely be explained with todays laws of physics.
Of course it would be nice to have a safe, free, clean source for energy, but it definitely wont come from these guys, but will be one day from some research lab with a lot of money put into its development...
Yeah, physics, mathematics, thermodynamics, the Noether theorem, it's all just a great conspiracy by the oil companies.
Haha. Fight the power! Stop being oppressed by the laws of physics that we're taught by our slave driving physics professors! They lie, and are paid by big oil to make these laws up... or something like that... Or maybe the laws of physics are a result of hundreds of years of experimentation and scrutiny that have been proven over and over again by a multitude of scientists and common people alike; worldwide. Yeah, I think that's it.
Consider what is taught in general. I respect anyone that has applied themselves to a physics degree and what is learnt has many practical applications and can not be disputed. But remember, the experts of their respective times laughed at Einstein, Tesla,the Wright Brothers... the list goes on.
I am not a student of physics. I am not a student of electronics either, although I've been fixing broken electronic gear for my parents since I was old enough to hold a multimeter and a soldering iron. I learnt how to do this through curiosity. I think not being a student of physics can sometimes be an advantage when you are trying to solve problems that elude current physicists and appear to defy the understood laws of physics.
I have been interested in the idea Free Energy/Zero Point Energy/Over Unity since I can remember. I think it all started when I was quite young, my earliest memory is reading about the race for a 'perpetual motion machine' way back when. Then I started reading about Tesla (yeah, that crackpot that designed wireless electricity over 100 years ago, you know, that 'new' technology being paraded around at the moment?). I've read Schauberger's works and I've read Thomas Bearden's work. I’ve read works by complete crackpots and by critics. I’ve been quite thorough in my research of this topic and have done so for years.
The most intriguing thing I read about over and over again is that the electrical circuits we use today are deliberately designed to kill the flow of energy which then must be re-supplied by the source. J.C. Maxwell originally described his model which included excess EM energy surrounding the circuit which could be transformed into photons and applied to the circuit. The statement 'energy can neither be created or destroyed' still holds true as the energy is merely being drawn from the atmosphere around the circuit. Subsequent simplifications by Heaviside and Lorentz to make the model symmetrical discard this part of the system and this is what is taught today.
I will admit I am not Einstein. But then again, how could I be, that would defy the law of life and death... unless you're the religious type and believe in reincarnation. But we all know religion has no place in a scientific debate.
Anyway, I will sit on the fence for Orbo, part of me says they haven’t cracked it at all, another part of me says this happens all too often – who would want to face such public ridicule (think T. Henry Moray who never asked anyone for a cent.)
This is pretty ironic, from their company history page on their website:
"The company has been instrumental in the development of core technologies that address counterfeit crime in areas such as plastic card fraud and optical disc fraud while also providing expert witness services to the international law enforcement community."
there are people in there now, all people standing about and asking questions by the looks of it
wonder what they are saying
anyone know how to capture the stream, i tried print screen and import from screen on paint shop pro - and they dont get the video
chaz
Quite expected. Their proposal was fundamentally flawed, and more than that, they were successful in brining in fools to invest in their product. Like PT Barnum used to say, a fool is born every 5 minutes. Or was it 1 minute. I just know there are alot of fools that will fall for this scam.
I just rang the Kinetica gallery. A very nice lady told me that they were closed, and that some people who have been waiting for a couple of days to view the device were allowed in to let the Steorn crew explain what's going on.
Apparently ;-) the device, and I quote, "worked upstairs", but just doesn't work in its current location.
Maybe Orbo is powered by the PR trainwreck they've created. It's like the opposite of Peter Pan. "No Wendy, it doesn't work if you believe."
At the time of this post, there is a pretty large crowd gathered around the "device". I have yet to see it move, or do anything really:
http://www.astream.com/live/steorn/camera1.html
http://www.astream.com/live/steorn/camera2.html
http://www.astream.com/live/steorn/camera3.html
http://www.astream.com/live/steorn/camera4.html
Are you sure it was even there? All I'm seeing now is the same as last night: an empty box. The crowd is hanging around to look at the info terminals.
I don't think I've ever been less surprised.
Well, if you really think about it, their claim is impossible. So they claim energy output of 280% even 400%. So what is this, an energy multiplier? Then what's to stop them from rigging a chain of these Orbo devices. Doesn't that mean that you can start with a little one that can trigger the next device that is more powerful and another that is more powerful than that. So what do we get, infinite energy? Maybe they don't want to make the same mistake that the infamous cold fusion team made. But if that's the case they would just keep their mouths shut. This is probably a marketing ploy. They're probably better off trying to make an engine that runs on beer than making this thing work.
Not that I want to defend the mad scientists, but no, just because it's >100% efficient doesn't mean you can automatically get infinite energy by stringing the machines together. It would be reasonable to assume that this fabled machine still has normal operating limits in terms of power throughput in relation to machine size. So for example, say the Orbo-50 that you buy for your home has a 50Kw rating, trying to run it harder might just cause it to overheat or fail some other way. Kind of like shining lights on it...
But, to use 50% of the output and then share the remaining 50% between its own input and another Orbo.. that sounds feasible.
I can't believe I just said "orbo" and "feasible" in the same breath. Excuse me, I need to go pick up a bridge.
Gosh, and I'm almost out of dilithium for my ZPM. This is bad news.
Video of the free t-shirt party!!
http://www.steornpower.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=80
At least they did not lie about giving away them.
I'm fairly sure it's not a scam. This is not to say that I think they've rewritten the laws of thermodynamics-- more likely that they observed something that had them fooled for a bit-- energy from a not immediately apparent source. They even stopped taking investors after that magazine ad (which cost them at least $150k), so it's not like they're raking in money here.
They're not taking new investors but they're still taking lots of money from current investors.
I, for one, welcome our new Orbo overlords
I can tell you how orbo works... just send 5Euro to.......................
But seriously i have one in my skycar right now and the mileage is great.
I would have loved this to work but its not looking good.
ok were they not going to offer this technology under GPU? So free means free to develop and distribute. THis kind of thing would be very devastating to power/energy companies.
It could have been a hoax
...or people/corporations with competing interests who stand to lose basically everything could have compromised the public experiment. Free energy would make a lot of rich and powerful people very poor very fast. Stocks would plummet so fast your head would spin.
think about it.
"or people/corporations with competing interests who stand to lose basically everything could have compromised the public experiment"
By offering Steorn a cool billion or two to shut up, perhaps...
Thats, is undoubtedly not the case. Why would anyone who actually had a free energy machine that works take a tiny 1 billion dollar bribe? The profits you would earn from your own project would outweigh the billion dollars AND you would be changing the world.
Steorn is simply a bunch of scam artists, or an honest company who has misunderstood their own invention. Either way they're not too bright.
ENGADGET EDITORS!!!!
For shame -come on -look at the debate you have generated for a scam. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
I've been refusing to even respond to all these con artist posts because -TALK -any TALK -is all they want. I know, I know -isn't it a blast to poke fun at these con artists and vaporware jokers and blah blah -but really -you can not publish their name in any way -no matter what you say afterwards and not be serving their needs!
Please just stop posting CONS. -you are aiding and abetting.
PLEASE, OH PLEASE STOP!
"ENGADGET EDITORS!!!!
For shame -come on -look at the debate you have generated for a scam. You should be ashamed of yourselves. "
I hope you're being sarcastic. Thousands upon thousands of articles claiming Steorn is a scam and how unprofessional they are, is anything BUT good for them.
And lots of people get trained to recognize scams a little better next time. Who knows, it may be useful.
has humanity really come to this? complete and utter cynicism? shouldn't we be excited to give them the benefit of the doubt before panning them? we really do suddenly live in a world of 'guilty until proven innocent' don't we? can't we at least wait this one out before dropping reputation-bombs on them? seriously...what do we have to lose by hoping? if not for yourself...think of the underdeveloped nations and underpriveleged beings around the nation that will benefit most from such a discovery as the orbo. we, kotori magazine, for one, will hold out hope as long as possible. it's one of the few things left that is free...so far...
kotorimag.com
I'm sorry you feel that humanity using logic is a tragedy. Through my education there are many things that I simply will NOT believe until you show me. I have learned that the sky is blue. It has been proven over and over and over again by many different people. If you came to me and said "Hey! The sky is green!" I would need absolute proof until I even began to believe such an outrageous claim. I am also familiar with the laws of physics and thermodynamics. As far as I know and can logically postulate, their claims are not possible. They will have to come out with multitudes of unrefutable proof for me to even come close to beieving them.
The sky is not blue; the sea is blue.
*sigh*
I've been following the comments on this topic for a while now, and I really have to say something.
I'm not a professional physicist - I moved into IT after finishing university - but I do have a degree in physics, from Imperial College, University of London. That's a UK degree, roughly equivalent to a US Masters degree (no, not out of any inherent superiority or inferiority, in the UK we specialise a lot earlier than the US - from 16 to 18 I studied only Physics, Chemistry and Mathematics, and a university degree here doesn't have "majors" or "minors", it has one and only one topic - I studied physics for the entire time).
And I have to say I'm slightly jaded at seeing so may posts that basically say "I know nothing about physics, but all the physicists are wrong!"
How would you feel about a post that read :
"I don't know about this game console rubbish, but I KNOW that SONY is selling their Playstatus 4 better than the Xbork or Nintenedy Wee, 'cos they have a shorter name, and short names always win in technology, it's whuy apple is bigger than microsoft, it's because of the ticker symbol on the NYSE, when it's short it looks like the company name so people know what it is!" or alternatively a post that states that while the poster knows nothing about semiconductor physics or silicon chip design, he knows full well that the people at Intel and AMD are idiots and are getting it all wrong because we should have "100 giga-quad" chips running on "metabiotic silicon" by now?
I doubt it would get a lot of respect or credit. So when someone who actually knows a bit about a topic comes across a "scientists don't know nuffin, I never studied science but I can tell you they're wrong" how do you think it looks? We all have a tendancy to have strong opinions on things we know nothing about, I know, but that rarely gets any of us respect.
Many people have complained about the supposed close-minded overly conservative science establishment that never accepts new ideas or theories (in spite of the fact that almost every member in it works to develop and test new ideas and theories, it's part of the definition of science), etc etc etc. The common factor in almost all these accusations is the missing part of the previous sentence - that they never accept new ideas or theories without experimental evidence or at least a coherent mathematical model that doesn't violate existing experimental evidence. It's always "I don't have any proof whatsoever, but those crusty old fools won't throw out the entire structure of modern physics that allows us to produce all the modern technologies we have and predict an enormous part of the universe we observe for my personal theory about gravity being caused by space alien ray guns just because I don't have any proof whatsoever! It's not fair!"
The conservation of energy is one of the basic theories of physics. It has never been properly shown to be violated in any experiment we have ever done. It's at the same level as "gravity is an attractive force". We've never seen any occurance of gravity suddenly becoming repulsive and throwing objects into space, or of the earth suddenly disintegrating when gravity reverses itself. You can do this experiminet yourself at home - take a hammer, hold it up in front of you and let go. I predict, based on my knowledge of physics, that it will fall, pushing any air underneath it away, until it hits a surface. Repeat this experiment a few million times. If, even once, it flies up and comes to rest on the ceiling, please be sure to carefully document it.
A machine that violated the conservation of energy would be an even greater suprise. Much greater, in fact. It underpins almost everything else.
Now it's not impossible (though unlikely) that a machine could be built, accidentally, to tap into an unknown energy source. Perhaps, in the extreme, even something like zero point energy, or siphoning energy form a universe at a higher energy state, or gravitational energy from the galaxy, or rotational energy from space-time being dragged around the sun as it rotates, or some other sci-fi level of potentially-possible source, or even a source that's not even been theorised about yet. It's just very inlikely. When was the last time someone produced a silicon chip by accident? Or even was messing around with some metal and built an engine without any real understanding of how things burnt, produced heat, flowed or moved? These days, the pattern is mostly:
Something in an existing device or system is observed that doesn't match existing theory.
Further experiments made to determine scope of deviation from prediction.
New theories produced to explain deviation.
Theories that mathematically match the observed results are tested in further experiments. Debate begins over accuracy of theories.
Eventually, theoretical engineering possibilities come from analysis, inspiration and debate.
Devices begin to be worked on.
The transistor would be a fine example. Someone didn't just bang one together in a workshop somewhere, it was a theoretical possibility for decades - it was assumed at first that it would be impossible to purify or dope silicon accurately for a long time, but a way was found and it was finally done.
So, in short, when someone claims to have a device that violates the conservation of energy, the first reaction has to be scepticism, just as if someone came forward and claimed to be able to cast magical spells. The burden of proof is definitely on the claimant - and the more extreme the claim, the higher the appropriate level of scepticism. When all the evidence points to a hoax - art galleries instead of universities, mysterious problems and no actual evidence whatsoever - extreme scepticism is warranted.
Heck guys, if a five man team claimed to have produced an x86-compatible CPU that ran at the 1000 peta-flop level using a 0.03 nm process using only 3 mW of energy and decided to demonstrate it in an art gallery, but had problems form the lighting, how convinced would you be?
GREAT comment!
Finally, someone with a brain!
You are educated but deluded.
There is no energy conservation as there is Einstein's equation E=mcc between potential and cinetic and there are none shut sustems. Gravity must be repulsive to start the big bang and keep the Hubble flow; what do you think dark energy is? Perpetual motion (not self-sustenabil motion) is dictaten by the first law of thermo; the next law damps the motion but does not make such nouht.
There are mathematic and thermokemic proofs for violations; read my treatise "Refutation of Themodynamic Laws".
Someone with a fucking brain around here. Congratulations!
As for 'cinetic' energy? well, that doesn't really exist...
I'm not going to outright say "it's a scam" but I'm not going to outright say "it works, woo, free energies, death to the power cos, etc". I'm just waiting for a *working* prototype.
Yeah, but... we *should* have metabiotic silicon by now.
Jonzilla and others sympathetic to Steorn and the Orbo: Most of us who mock this fraud don't do so because we have knee-jerk reactions to reject controversial ideas and claims out of hand.
We know it's safe to reject this one, though, but because the Laws of Thermodynamics are so very well established that they essentially ARE "absolutes" that you can take to the bank.
Untold numbers of perpetual motion machines have been built or claimed, and none has ever worked. If your neighbor claims he's got a captured UFO in his garage, there might be a one-in-a-billion chance he's right. If he's claiming he's got a real perpetual motion (free energy) machine, there is no such chance.
I would like to congratulate the millions and millions of scientists, engineers, physicists, etc. who have devoted their lives throughout history for their hard work and dedication to science!! Their work, representing literally trillions of man hours, has provided the world with countless inventions and tools that have changed our world many times over.
Today, they are once again able to hold their heads high and celebrate their overwhelming victory in this demonstration's results that were supposed to prove them all wrong. Quite the contrary, it only once again proved them totally and completely right!! With their vast knowledge, experience, and deep understanding of the physical world, they were able to correctly surmise in just a matter of seconds of learning of this demonstration that it would not work.
Also, honorable mention goes to a non-scientist by the name of P.T. Barnum who also is once again correct that there really is a sucker born every minute!
Vardan1899
Please read up on J.C. Maxwell... Lorenz, Heaviside did but found that they had to simplify much of it for their own understanding and for teaching. Lorentz simplified these principals further and these simplified systems are what we base much of our modern thermodynamics teachings on today.
I have already admitted I am not a physicist and I don't mean to offend you if you are. Please read my previous post reply (to my own original post).
"J.C. Maxwell originally described his model which included excess EM energy surrounding the circuit which could be transformed into photons and applied to the circuit."
Sorry, but what on earth does that mean? There is "EM energy" around any circuit, anyone who's done high-school physics knows that. How can this be "transformed to photons and then applied to the circuit"? So, what, you want to turn the magnetic field into light, and then shine that back on the circuit? Sorry, I've heard this kind of drivel before in this context, and it's always explained in bullshit Bearden style word salad, so I've never understood what (if anything) is actually meant.
"Subsequent simplifications by Heaviside and Lorentz to make the model symmetrical discard this part of the system..."
It is well known that Heaviside simplified Maxwell's original equations by putting them into vector notation. Heck, even Wikipedia says it. Again, this is something I've often heard spouted on the topic of perpetual motion, but I've never seen it explained in proper terminology which, you know, makes sense. For some reason Maxwell is always taken as the benchmark, despite the fact that apart from the addition of the displacement current term in Ampere's law all had been derived previously.
Anyway. My main problem with this conjecture is that it is simply WRONG. Maxwell's equations are /not/ symmetrical! This is because as far as we know there are no magnetic monopoles, and as such there is no "magnetic charge" or "magnetic current" (analogous to electric charge and current, which of course do exist) in Maxwell's equations, making them asymmetric.
I think you *should* study the physics of Maxwell (and sure, Lorentz as well). Electromagnetism really is one of the most beautiful theories ever created by man, especially when formulated with our elegant modern mathematics.
Plus, you'd also get to find that your comments are, I'm sorry to say, completely nonsensical. I mean no offense by this, I'm sure you only have the best of intentions, but what you've been saying is simply wrong.