Third generation HD DVD players on October 1st?

There's no doubt that the HD Format war is in full swing, and just when the Blu-ray camp thinks they're going to catch up with HD DVD's full featured players, HD DVD raises the bar. We'll probably have to wait 'till CEDIA to get the official word from Toshiba, but for now Amazon has a few details about the new lineup, which will be available on October 1st and include three models: the HD-A3 ($299), HD-A30($399), and the HD-A35($499). One thing is for sure, this is going to be a completely different war by the time the holiday buying season rolls around.

Read -- HD-A3
Read -- HD-A30
Read -- HD-A35

[Via FormatWarCentral]

[brad @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:32PM]

I really dont think there will be a format winner....the winner will be the device that plays hd-dvd, blu-ray and dvd in one single drive that costs $200...its a few years away, but this war wont end anytime soon

[gar3 @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:46PM]

I agree with Brad. Unless HD DVD has a truly horrendous holiday season, especially in the US, both formats are here to stay. My advice to everyone is to learn to live with 'em. This "war" is quickly leaning towards an RW-/+ conclusion where a good majority of hardware will simply read both formats. Done.

[HB96st @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:47PM]

I think the "war" bumped up a notch with the HD player for the 360 price drop.

[LJKelley @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:47PM]

Still rooting for HD DVD :) They do need to get another high profile manafacture in the fold and get Fox to publish on both formats.

[Charles @ Aug 2nd 2007 3:27PM]

Can I ask why you’re rooting for HD-DVD? Both formats support the same audio and video codecs but Blu-ray has a 66% greater capacity which allows higher bit rates to be used with the codecs, thus giving potentially better audio and video quality.

I’m not looking for an argument, I just want to know why someone would support what is patently an inferior format.

[LJKelley @ Aug 2nd 2007 4:22PM]

Reasons why I support HD DVD:
1) No Region Coding. As an International Person (having lived on both sides of the Atlantic) DVDs have been a pain and I've had to make sure to have region free players.
2) Size is adequate and by implementing required internet connect a 3rd layer can be supported if nessacary bringing the capcity to 51GB.
3) Price. I don't believe $1000 for a DVD Player to be fair, nor $40 for a movie. Overall when I visit Target or Circuit City, HD DVD prices tend to be lower.
4) Format is finished. Don't have to wait for HDi or other features. Blu-ray is not yet complete so people having spent $1000 will have to hope that Sony provides them with a free firmware update (if possible on all models) and doesn't try to force them to buy new hardware (which knowing Sony, they would prefer). I don't put my 'faith' in corporations. Either its delivered or I must accpet the possibility of getting screwed.

[Ryan @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:51PM]

Will someone just hurry up and build a decent combo player! Geez! It's killing me.

[shelterpaw @ Aug 2nd 2007 12:59PM]

Yes, build a decent one with a reasonable price. I definitely think there's room in this world for both formats and those combo players make consumers the winner.

[Steve @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:00PM]

Nope. Blu-ray won, I'm afraid.

[steve @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:15PM]

yea, because no-one sells hd-dvd's anymore, right? Ya know, I've herd of system fanboy's before, but common, format fanboy's? what the F is the point of that?

[paloooz @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:36PM]

Showcase showdown after this!

Steve vs. steve

[shelterpaw @ Aug 2nd 2007 2:52PM]

I have my money on steve. or was that Steve?

[OnimushaSoki @ Aug 3rd 2007 9:12AM]

Too bad Stephen isn't here. :\

[andy @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:03PM]

"full featured players, hddvd raises the bar"


Where can they go? They already have a small computer there that is software upgradeable. The only thing they could do is add XBMC to these things, but that wouldn't require new hardware.


I wonder what makes these new players better than the old ones....

With bluray, you can add a network port and persistant storage; the HDDVD spec already had those. So really, how are they raising the bar?

[SHOpkins @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:11PM]

I guess part of what they're doing is lowering the bar... the MSRP bar. They also have to keep their product line fresh even there aren't any real updates. The A3 still maxes out at 1080i and the A30 still lacks HQV processing, though I'm not sure if the A35 is a direct replacement for the XA2 or if it's a 4th entry in their line. If the A35 lacks HQV then it looks like it'll just be an A30 + Deep Color which would make it nearly irrelevant.

[Andrew @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:19PM]

From here their next movie is to simply refine what they already have. They're likely going to move to a single-chip solution like the Broadcom SoC that was announced at the beginning of the year.

[mixpdf @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:24PM]

Would love to see faster load times, smaller chassis, analog outs etc.

[SHOpkins @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:06PM]

Not only does there need to be a decent combo player... it needs to be less than the price of buying both individual players. Right now that's around $600 - $700 if you go with an A2 and BDP1200... and closer to $500 if you go w/ a refurb A2 and refurb BDP1000 (which is the route I went). A $500 combo player would satisfy most genuinely interested in home theater... while it might take a $200 combo player to satisfy J6P enough to boost media purchase, which will in turn pull down media prices and increase released titles.

[shelterpaw @ Aug 2nd 2007 3:02PM]

You pretty much nailed it.

[Mark @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:09PM]

This has been going on long enough that I officially don't care anymore.

[Radicoon @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:28PM]

No freaking kidding.

[coolwubla @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:29PM]

Blu-Ray currently sells 75% of the media sold today. People need to rally with it, and make HD-DVD a thing of the past. This was we can get some NBC Universal, blu ray content. Blu-ray technology wise is the better format, don't try to save 100$ by going with HD-DVD.

[paloooz @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:37PM]

I didn't know Blu-Ray was outselling DVD already.

[Andrew Jones @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:57PM]

I figured Sony won the "War" when I heard that pr0n makers were switching to Blu Ray.

[Kenban @ Aug 2nd 2007 4:36PM]

Blu-ray only sells 75% of the HD media in weeks that there are no HD-DVD releases. Fact is the sales are currently around 60/40 with Blu-ray in the lead. But HD-DVD sales are showing good growth while Blu-ray disk sales are actually going down.

Something else to think about is that total all HD-DVD and Blu-ray releases have sold only around 3 million disks. A big budget blockbuster can sell 4 million DVD's in its first week of release. Last I heard more Blu-ray disks have been given away as part of free offers then have actually been purchased by consumers. That might have finally changed in the last two or three months but its pretty incredible to think about.

[Joe @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:29PM]

The Amazon Links no longer work

[Rick wilson @ Aug 2nd 2007 1:36PM]

You guys still don't get it do you? You think that if HD DVD has enough players then big companies like Fox will supply discs for both formats, but you're wrong.

Once you support 100% Blu-ray you can't switch to HD-DVD because Blu-ray discs have a higher bandwidth, they hold more, and every disc would have to again be re-mastered to fit on the tiny HD DVD discs, and probably be a two disc set.

Fox and Disney have both announced that to win the format war you must support one format and one format only, they aren't about to switch.

The only company fully supporting HD DVD is Universal... they can't fight the rest of the movie industry.

Anyway why buy a cheap hd dvd player when it will never ever play 50% + of the content out there?

Remember: EVERYONE but Universal is releasing blu-ray discs... enough said.

[YoRone22 @ Aug 2nd 2007 2:18PM]

Last I heard HD DVD has more studios then Blu Ray.

[TrentD @ Aug 2nd 2007 2:21PM]

This is so incorrect it's funny.

Most dual-format companies actually use the same encode on both formats, and they look amazing in both, because in the absence of interactivity, 50 GB is overkill. Check out the Matrix in HD DVD - one of the best looking HD films out, that also has lossless audio and the in-movie-experince all running at once. No bandwidth or storage problem there.

Right now, the only reason 50 GB discs get anywhere near full is when MPEG2 (old, inefficent compression) and LPCM are used - they're bit hogs! Using AVC and VC-1, with TrueHD audio, you don't need 50 GB, period.

If you're going to be a fanboy, at least educate yourself so you don't look so bad.

[Edge @ Aug 2nd 2007 4:35PM]

"640K ought to be enough for anybody...."

[OddManOut @ Aug 2nd 2007 3:08PM]

"Fox and Disney have both announced that to win the format war you must support one format and one format only..."


And we all know Fox and Disney are NEVER wrong...

[eatSHROOMS @ Aug 3rd 2007 4:35AM]

rofl, so true

[Azsori @ Aug 2nd 2007 2:34PM]

50GB is NOT overkill...it is needed...

It is true that studios have not begun taking advantage of the extra space yet, but that 50GB leaves a lot of space to jack up the bit rate with those advanced video codecs, leaving current releases in the dust in terms of PQ...

More is certainly better in this case. Maybe less is good enough for you, but in the future, if you want the best PQ, your going to have to go Blu...until then enjoy the benefits of both formats.

[h0mi @ Aug 2nd 2007 2:38PM]

The 50gb size is needed not for video PQ but for those PCM tracks, due to BD's not requiring support for all audio codecs.

The jump in bandwidth from hddvd to bluray isn't that significant.

[b_a_boone @ Aug 2nd 2007 4:02PM]

The amount of space on the 2 disks will eventually cause Blu-Ray to win. Look at the market place everyone wants more space. Prime example 30gig ipod $250 80gig ipod $350 both play the same content one is going to become too small for the average consumer over the next couple of years. What's an extra $100 for more then double the space. Not a Blu-Ray or HD DVD fan boy just a #'s don't lie kinda guy.

[h0mi @ Aug 2nd 2007 6:37PM]

"Look at the market place everyone wants more space. Prime example 30gig ipod $250 80gig ipod $350 both play the same content one is going to become too small for the average consumer over the next couple of years."

Bad example. The most popular ipod is 4gb. I'm certain that the 30 gig ipod has outsold the 60 or 80.

"What's an extra $100 for more then double the space."

If you don't need the space, that $100 can go elsewhere... like $100 worth of music. Or if you don't have that $100, it's the difference between having whatever you want or not. I'm not saying the disc size isn't an advantage for bluray but it's really a minor one and plays a very small role in bluray's lead right now.

[alex @ Aug 3rd 2007 9:04AM]

I can't even fill up my 30 GB ipod. I use it as a USB HDD because of all the space left over.

[MD @ Aug 2nd 2007 2:44PM]

@Rick Wilson-- Please tell he how a higher disc capacity will win the war? Can you please tell me how many current BR movies are actually using the DL BD 50 discs?

How come Disney put out the Pirates of the Carribean on two separate discs if a DL 50gb disc would suffice?

Fact is, capacity is not the measuring stick of this war. And so what if it's a two disc set on HD DVD? It's still cheaper to remanufacture on HD DVD discs.

I think you need to take a step back and educate yourself on both technologies. Fact is, both have (BR and HD DVD) the same PQ, different video codecs but same quality. AQ is also the same, Dolby TrueHD and PCM lossless (both lossless audio). The only thing keeping up the BR group is the PS3.

And please -- you talk about studio this and studio that-- check the relased titles internationally, HD DVD has released more titles vs BR world wide, in the U.S. alone --there is probably a difference of 10 released movies from BR. Studios won't matter, what will matter is how much the studios will make.. it's a race to see who can sell the cheapest hardware. Once hardware is there, software will follow. More software, more money for the studios. And don't forget that there are studios that are nuetral but favor one side. Good example is Warner, look at their releases.. Do you see Matrix on BR? Want to know why--because HD DVD was the mature format.

@ Andrew: Pron wil win the format war? Double check on that. The pron industry clearly supports the HD DVD group-- they have tons of releases. Only pron I've seen on BR is 1 --and it's from Japan. Check how many pron titles there are on HD DVD.

These third gens have plenty of room for improvement including : design, style, 24p support, USB functionality, 7.1 analogs, 5.1 analogs, DTS-HD MA encoder, load times, etc.

[MD @ Aug 2nd 2007 2:49PM]

Oh and for you capacity nut-huggers out there, if capacity is so important then, you may want to search this site for a 51gb TL disc from Toshiba. No word on using them yet, since the 30gb DL disc work just fine on HD DVDs.

[Mr. HD-DVD Blu Monkey Boy. @ Aug 2nd 2007 3:11PM]

The Porn industry isn't going to decide the fate of either of these formats... I would love another format to come along so all the HD-DVD dipshits and Blu-Ray fanboys would quit there whinning... AVS is so full of BS on either side of the fence it makes me want to puke! ;) Ah, if you want free porn content it is all ove the net.....

[Chris @ Aug 2nd 2007 3:53PM]

It's untrue that the PS3 is the only thing supporting Blu-ray today. Even with the pricing differences, the standalone share is still only 60/40 for HD-DVD. If the PS3 did not exist, the companies of the Blu-ray group would simply subsidize their players as Toshiba is doing with theirs to get the pricing closer. The standalone ratios would swing dramatically the other way. It's quite simple. Toshiba has no choice but to heavily subsidize their players...

[wickedpheonix @ Aug 2nd 2007 4:17PM]

I haven't gotten any HD player yet. I do not own a HDTV. However I will tell you this: I am going to get a 360 HD-DVD player ASAP for the following reasons:

1) I can use it on my computer. Yes I do have a BenQ FP241W which has 1080p and an HDMI port but the software is whats really important - PowerDVD Ultra and subsequent players will kick the pants off of standalone players.
2) Price. $180 for HD-DVD vs. over $400 or so for Blu-Ray? Its a no-brainer....
3) Titles. Yes there are way more studios supporting Blu-Ray. But as a geek I am concerned with the following titles and the following (sry albeit *latest*) titles only: Heroes season 1, the Matrix collection, and 300. 300 is on both formats, but heroes and the matrix are as of now exclusive to HD-DVD. Oh yeah and did I forget the Bourne movies? Those kick ass. Guess I'll be missing out on all the Disney classics (is there really a difference between DVD and Blu-Ray for an *animated* work???), some crappy romantic comedies, Spiderman (the latest ones suck and the original got old after watching it 6534354 times), and the Pirates of the Carribean movies (digital download FTW off iTunes - HD is coming there sooner or later and you know it!) Maybe there are a couple others in there but seriously give me a break, OK? Heroes and the Matrix, 'nuff said.
4) Sony sucks. I refuse to buy another Sony product after all their fiascos lately, namely the laptop batteries, the CD rootkits, I just don't trust that company any more.
5) 5 free movies with purchase. Yes I will only really watch 3 of them (Seabiscuit, constantine, and lara croft) but its a fantastic value and a great way to start my collection. If you seriously expect Sony to treat their customers in such a generous fashion, I think you seriously need a visit from my friend, Mr. Reality.

As for quality - they are the same, essentially. End of story. People who think they need bigger discs are actually compensating for *something*...

I would have gotten a combo player but I mean seriously: the LG combo internal PC drive on Newegg is $1k. I can get a seperate HD-DVD player AND a seperate Blu-Ray player for about $300 less at the VERY least.

As for who will actually win - I do see HD-DVD winning, for the pure reason that it is cheaper. People will walk into Best Buy and Circuit City after Thanksgiving this year and see that HD-DVD is much cheaper, gives free movies (yes I know the current offer expires Sept. 30, but I expect Toshiba to have the offer again over the holidays), and has the EXACT SAME PICTURE QUALITY (can't exactly hear an audio quality difference in a noisy store...). As for everyone who thinks that the PS3 will determine the market? The PS3 sucks. It's sold very, very poorly in the states in comparison to the other consoles, plus as a stand-alone player is more expensive now than other stand-alone players, PLUS families will want a Wii more. Everything is cheaper than Sony crap now and during the holidays. The kids who are young enough to still like Disney movies (know any 12-year olds who like Bambi anymore?) won't care or realize the differences between Blu-Ray and DVD, the older kids will want HD-DVD (have you seen the advertisements? KEWL EXPLOSIONS FTW!), and all in all Sony is going to get slaughtered in the end this holiday season. At the very worst the format war will continue on into Holdiays 2008. Blockbuster's opinion isn't worth anything anymore - people either buy or Netflix nowadays, and Blockbuster will go ahead and start renting HD-DVD movies again after this holiday season once it sees the sales numbers. The other movie studios will also start switching back, and sooner or later, Sony will eventually admit defeat because the only people with Blu-Ray drives will be the 5 million suckers who got a PS3 in the end in comparison to the 150 million or so who were smart cheapos who went HD-DVD.

And did I mention disc rot btw on Blu-Ray, and not on HD-DVD?

[Chris @ Aug 2nd 2007 4:41PM]

Wow... well done. Let's start at the beginning. Disk-rot? Not an issue for Blu-ray. Maybe a handful of discs had an issue, but that's it, and they were immediatley replaced. It does not exist as a problem today.

HD-DVD combo disc have huge problems to this day. "300" - the biggest title in quite some time was released in combo form (only) for HD-DVD and it's giving many people problems. Unlike the isolated rot issues, the combo's have and continue to give people problems. Whoops! When given the option of HD-DVD combo, or Blu-ray, I go with the cheaper and more reliable Blu-ray.

Finally, Blu-ray is not Sony! Panasonic owns as much of the IP in Blu-ray as Sony, so you are hating Blu-ray for the wrong reasons. If you don't like Sony, let them fail in the market place as you're so sure they will. But if you have to hate a CE company, why not just ignore the one you thinks charges too much, and focus on the truly dangerous one. Toshiba is the only consumer electronic company that I know of that's ever sold weapons technology to the Soviet Union! You want to support them?!

And to save everyone the time, let me just say here and now that any company, publication, or individual that dares speak a negative (or even neutral) word about HD-DVD is irrelevant, biased, and on their way out of business. So sayeth the HD-DVD flock.

(BTW, I'm a PS3 and HD-A1 owner, but blind, unsupported fanboyism annoys me to no end so I call it like I see it.)

[h0mi @ Aug 2nd 2007 6:43PM]

"I can use it on my computer. Yes I do have a BenQ FP241W which has 1080p and an HDMI port but the software is whats really important - PowerDVD Ultra and subsequent players will kick the pants off of standalone players."

What makes powerdvd > standalones in your opinion? I'm intrigued.

I bought the add on primarily because even though at the time I was going to buy a standalone (changed my mind but may get one anyway) I figured if I traveled I could bring the drive with my laptop and play movies (in my hotel room, instead of on the plane but still...)

[wickedpheonix @ Aug 3rd 2007 9:47AM]

@ h0mi

they don't say in any of the feature lists for the 360 player as to which of the audio formats etc the player will decode. thats because there is no decoding module in the drive and also why the drive is USB - its up to the software players properly decode the audio and video etc. Which means that with the right software you should be able to get Dolby TrueHD audio for example, a feature that most budget standalones don't support now and might not in the future if there are no firmware upgrades for example. It also means that the software players will be able to give you 1080p right from the start if your computer monitor supports it, the cheaper Toshiba HD-DVD models only support 1080i.

In short, software players should give you better flexibility and upgradeability and allow you to not lock into a specific feature set too early like you would on a standalone.

[MD @ Aug 2nd 2007 4:34PM]

@Chris: Really? So, you actually believe if PS3 never came out with a BR player this would still be going on? I think you need to keep in touch with WickedPhoenixs' friend, Mr. Reality.

Compare the hardware sales of BR standalones and HD DVD standalones-- not the PS3.

[Chris @ Aug 2nd 2007 4:48PM]

MD -
the HD DVD camp published numbers on stand alone sales in June. It was 60% HD-DVD and 40% Blu-ray (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070611/aqm077.html?.v=9).

So yes, HD-DVD has sold more stand alone units. But given the huge (at the time) price difference, that's not an impressive ratio at all!

What I'm saying is that if the PS3 did not exist, the Blu-ray CE companies would be subsidized their players so the pricing was similar to HD-DVD players. It's a smart move by Toshiba to subsidize, but they have to do it because they don't have an equivalent to the PS3.

That's my "reality" of how things would be in the PS3 didn't exist. The Blu-ray group would not simply give up and keep the players prices high enough to make profit (which they are now)

[MD @ Aug 2nd 2007 6:14PM]

@Chris: I see your point. And that's why it's great for us consumers. However, it seems the majority of the posters here are clueless of what's going on. My apologies for going out on a tangent-- FUD really irks me.

[Ben @ Aug 2nd 2007 5:33PM]

Hey guys,

I'm from the future. It's funny how Sony loves to repeat things. Bluray was a bigger flop than betamax-- bail out while you still can.

p.s. i'm not lying

[MD @ Aug 2nd 2007 6:40PM]

And to add, if we did not have this war going on then we wouldn't have these prices. Eventually, the BR CEs would've given up-- it would be too much of a loss to subsidize a $1200 player. IMO.