Ask Engadget: PC or Mac for back to school?
By Paul Miller 
posted August 23rd 2007 10:51PM
posted August 23rd 2007 10:51PM
It's that time of year again on Ask Engadget, when unfortunate, impressionable youths get kicked out of nurturing homes into the adult-beverage-soaked halls of higher learning institutions. Of course, the question of the hour is what kind of computer should you guilt your parents into purchasing for you, but Dave's making things particularly hard on himself:"I'm a Uni student doing IT Security, and I'm looking to replace my now four year old Windows laptop, and am tossing up between getting another Windows PC or getting a MacBook, and just wanted some advice on how it would suit me. Essentially I do some C/C# programming, Web design, presentations, reports and the like, with assignments needing to be in PPT and DOC formats. Could I get some advice on how each one would fare for my purpose, and iWork and Office compare for University use? Any help would be much appreciated!"
It sounds like Dave's got some pretty specific needs, and our gut feeling is that he won't hear the end of it from his peers if he's running any software that isn't governed by an open source license, but what say you peoples? Oh, and don't forget to send your questions and moral conundrums to ask at engadget dawt com, or next week we're going to be featuring a heartfelt plea from Josh to help him decide his favorite color.
Get a mac dude! You can Bootcamp it and run windows too.
MacBooks suck for running windows, trust me, with first hand experience, it screws up your mac big time.
Get a PC dude! You can load Osx86 on it and run mac too!
I think I can agree with Windows running poorly on the Macbook. I have both (windows on macbook) and I can say it's terribly unstable. Although I do hear good stuff from others so I don't know if it's just me.
Oh yeah, it seems like people who are bashing Macs never owns one. Seriously, experience first, then give opinions.
I'm actually gonna disagree. I got a mac for the first time and it was a macbook, and it runs Boot Camp great for my needs (includes playing Guild Wars and running 3d Max), I was mad at first no right click, but it's just touch+click, so whatever!
I wasn't a fan of parallels though..
but boot camp I think is great, and I really enjoy the mac side too. I really don't get why either side disses the other. both OS's have their own uses.. but in terms of OS alone I gotta say the mac os is way cooler. Still mainly a windows user though.
I have used Bootcamp exclusively on my Macbook for over a year now, XP and Vista (now running Vista exclusively).
I can tell you it works great, and is just as stable as any othe PC running windows. The one source for Apple Drivers (constantly updated at Apple.com) perhaps make this an even better experience than regular other PCs.
So I would say that the MacBook makes a better PC than a PC, plus Linux (mostly Ubuntu) support for triple booting MacBooks is pretty popular. Three operating systems on a stylish computer? You can't go wrong.
BTW iWork 08 is crap compared to Office 07.
I agree. Unlike a few of the posters I think Windows runs just fine on a Mac using bootcamp. I've noticed a little less battery life running XP compared to OS X, but beyond that Windows has been running fine. Bootcamp used to have limited and somewhat iffy driver support but it's no longer the case. If dual booting isn't your thing then try out using a virtual machine such as VMware or Parallels. Crossover may also be worth taking a look at. Like many people, you may even decide to abandon windows all together. What's nice is there is a choice.
Sure, macs have problems like PCs... and there are people who have had chronic problems and people with none at all. In average Macs tend to have less.
That's not saying that buying a PC doesn't have its advantages. People often say that Macs cost more then PCs. In many cases a PC with equivalent specs costs about the same as a Mac. What Apple doesn't offer are Macs that are "value" priced computers. These would be your $300 PC bundles and $500 laptops. Sometimes this is all a student needs though. Also if a high degree of customizability is important to you and you dont want a Mac Pro then a PC may be a better choice.
I wouldn't recommend OSx86 though. Not only is it illegal (If you care *cough*) it's a bit of work setting up not to mention you need to find drivers to work with it.
I recommend to students to try a mac out. I have had many people move to the Mac Platform and are very happy. Many of these people have both OSX and Windows for games. Even one friend of mine who prefers Windows ( :S ) over OSX still loves the hardware. If you go to the Apple store and its still not your thing or you just need to put it together part by part then consider building your own PC. If a $300 computer's good enough for you... get a Dell...
Some schools actually require PCs over Macs. Univ. of Michigan Law School requires their students to buy PCs because their exams run on some windows specific program. I don't know all the details, I only know what my sister told me.
Has no one even read what the guy wrote? He needs to write in C/C# and use do word processing. In other words: he needs Visual Studio and Office. If that's not a clear-cut "I need Windows" case, I don't know what is. You can't write C# in anything but Visual Studio, which is Windows-only. So let's see... he can cough up 200$ more for a laptop with an OS he doesn't really need and then cough up 200$ on top of that for Windows and then may be another 150$ for Office Student edition. Or he can buy the laptop with Windows pre-installed and hopefully Office pre-installed as well. If not he can probably select some 50$ option that will get him Office. So he saves a minimum of 500$ or he can boast about having a Macbook. Gee... lemme think about this.
"Has no one even read what the guy wrote? He needs to write in C/C# and use do word processing. In other words: he needs Visual Studio and Office. If that's not a clear-cut "I need Windows" case, I don't know what is. You can't write C# in anything but Visual Studio, which is Windows-only."
Well, first of all there are a range of possibilities for programming in C on the mac including the Apple developed app Xcode. There are also a couple options for C# development -- check out Mono. As for word processing... if you like Office you can expect to get a new version for Mac OS X (Office 2008) or if you don't care about the glitzy features microsoft loads office up with, you can get Pages (as part of iWork) for $30, and there are plenty of freeware options like OpenOffice.
The MacBook is awesome! Get 2GB and Parallels Desktop for running WinXP. It runs really, really well. I also run Ubuntu Linux. I'm can't imagine a better laptop for learning to program. I've been running it for applications development and its been great. Plus, it actually GOES TO SLEEP when you shut the lid. My Toshiba Portege and Dell XPS 1710 seem cheaply made compared to the MacBook.
You can buy Word, Powerpoint, Excel, MSN, AND Entourage(Outlook) for around $50. C# stuff works on most kinds of computers.
If College is supposed to prepare you for the real world (not living off of a trust fund) you'll most likely end up working for a company that most likely be running Windows XP. As a college student, it is probably a good idea to become comfortable with the world's most widely used operating system. Yes, you COULD pay for two OS's, but why bother? They're not all that different.
And as for programming, the vast majority of C programmers run Linux, and C# is usually done in XP in Visual Studio. There ARE other tools for other OSs, but your first job out of school will probably require you to sit at an XP machine and write C# in Visual Studio. Better to not have to tell that employer "Sorry, I don't know how to use an XP machine - I love Mac" anymore than having to write "I use Pages" on your application when they ask if you're familiar with MS Office.
Real IT people dont use Macs... emos on tv do.
Are you kidding? All the hardcore programmers I know love macs. Why? Something called Darwin ....
As far as the topic is concernced I would say mac. For the IT guy its a good safe way to get your feet wet in a full unix operating system without making the full jump to something like Fedora Core where you are left completely unsupported. With parallels or boot camp you can have your windows environment if you really need it.
best comment evar!
What a douche comment. The best engineers I know use MAC. Not sure why someone would use anything else.
"Real" IT people use whatever they like, because they're mature enough to know that an operating system is not only as good as the advertisers and fanboys tell them.
If you're hankering for an Apple experience then go with the MacBook. Like everyone says, you can run Windows XP, Vista, Linux and whatever else you desire on a Mac, but you can't have Mac OS if you do it the other way around with a PC (blame Apple for that one). With a Mac you can get the best of both worlds, but you do pay a premium for something which you can't really upgrade easily - plus you'll need to buy XP or Vista outright at retail price.
I know plenty of real IT people that use a Mac.
Now of course, if your talking about low level tier one support, then yes, the PC rules.
The question is whether or not that low level support is actually real IT...
Plenty of high level IT people cut their teeth on Mac. And any real IT person is open to every platform and tries to be familiar with them, unless they want to become obsolete. Operating systems change. 40 years ago CP/M was a dominant operating system. 30 years ago, ProDOS on the Apple II was the popular desktop OS. 20 years ago, "real" IT people worked almost exclusively on mainframes. And 15 years ago, Novell NetWare ruled...
I really hate it when completly uneducated people try to speak, it's like watching fox news...
hmm, can you ssh into you network natively with a windows box? what about a nice terminal? Shure, cygwin could do the job, but it's pretty damn unstable. Here's my suggestion: Mac or Linux. Either way it's going to do whatever you need. Just google C# for linux. And while your at it, program in C & C++ if you really want to learn something. C# isn't a real language, it's a Microsoft standard. Try doing some object oriented C++, and you'll be good to go.
Oh, and since we're back in the realm of standards based programming, you can get all your development tools for free with the mac. same with Linux. Expect to pay for Visual Studio if you decide to go windows. Oh, an as far as office goes, Open Office all the way. I've used it in the professional world where everyone else was using Microsoft Office, and never had an issue. Oh, and Sun Microsystems supports this one.
And finally, some links...
http://developer.apple.com/
http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/
http://www.engadget.com/2006/04/17/onmac-triple-boots-mac-from-boot-camp/
This one does. And it runs great. I run OSX and then a bunch of virtual enviroments for Windows OSes. I have to say i have a desktop pc on my desk as well. I dual boot for light gaming. Macs are truley great, i once was a hater aroung the 7, 8 , 9 days but since 10 I would spend my own money on anything else. And now with the intel procs it is not even a question.
Hum, Real IT people don't user MAC's...
Well let’s see... I am a IT person, I have IT certifications, and I work in corporate America fortune 500...
I've supported Television in Financial news, also supporting Television in local news and national news. Supported users and TV in NYSE, supported people in the T.V. entertainment profession, support users in the financial profession "completely separate from financial news", users in the medical profession, etc...
I have, not a MAC, but MAC's at my house! G4 Cube, 1GHz Power Mac, 2GHz Power Mac, 2.5 quad processor Power Mac an extra Power Mac to hack around with. Sorry no MAC notebooks. And guess what... I am a IT MAC certified, and next month I was going to start preparing for 2 more MAC certifications.
Maybe I should give up my MAC computers and return my MAC certification because I want to become a REAL IT PERSON... NOT!
Real IT people have more than just one computer and running more than just "many flavors of Windows"!
I would have to agree with that.
What???? Just last night read an article in Wired. Talked about one of the Vetted opening up his Powerbook and getting to work.... and if you don't know who the "Vetted" are... You really have no right posting what you did...
Macbook + Parallels. Done.
The Calc class i'm taking at Mich Tech requires that I do my homework with some BS windows only software. So now i gotta get VMWare, bahh.
VMWare isn't too bad, really. I'm running it with Ubuntu right now. Just a trial, but still, really cool.
If you don't need 3d acceleration, then Virtualbox will do just about everything that VMware does. It's how I run XP on my Macbook. As for the reply to the overall question of Mac Vs. PC, there's no question. Get the Mac. Virtualize Windows if you need any legacy support.
http://www.virtualbox.org/
Incidentally, I made it through 4 years of college running Linux so I really wouldn't worry about it. I ran MS Office in Crossover. On a Mac, you could just get Office 2008 whenever it is released (sometime in 2009 I gather).
I bought a MacBook last year before Grad School, and found the combination of MS Office for Mac and Parallels to run Windows specific apps to be more than enough for my needs. It's been hassle free so far.
Have you tried NEO OFFICE for Mac? Its been a good solution for me at school at least until Open Office finishes their Mac version. Office 2007 has some shiny polish but seems like a rip off kind of like Vista. Ive stuck to Open Office and XP on my PCs.
I agree with RS. I'm going into Computer Science this year and just got my MacBook Pro. I have Bootcamp with Fusion on it, but I don't use Windows really at all.
Even though I'm a Mac fanboy - I'd get a PC if I were you .. getting into IT Security and all.
Major business and corps don't revolve their infrastructure around Macs.
Mac! For the love of god get a Mac. It's always worth the extra $200 for a machine that will still work properly in six months.
If you're not a idiot a Windows machine will work for years with no problems till maybe a part goes out which you can go to any electronic retailer and replace yourself
//can't say that about a Mac
$200 ha, you must be joking.
My Inspiron 1520 is $400-$600 cheaper than the equivalent Macbook Pro and thats including the education discount on the mac, and none on the Dell(Canada).
Even if I liked macs, I wouldn't ever pay $400 more for the same notebook that is slightly thinner/stylish (plus I like how the new Inspirons look).
@Dragoneye: $400-600 seems like an exaggeration; I just now spec'd out an Inspiron 1520 as close to a base MacBookPro as I could (only difference was in the video card; the Dell only offered the 256MB 8600M) and it came to $1739.
A Latitude D830 with similar specs (Latitudes use Quadro cards so the comparisons aren't as clear) came to $2049, after two free upgrades that would have been $190 otherwise.
The MBP is still thinner, lighter, uses an LED backlight and offers a number of hardware features that the Dells don't like a drop sensor and a backlit keyboard, which I decided were worth the money when I made my laptop purchase.
You might not have come to the same conclusion, and that's a perfectly valid choice. However it's no reason to inflate differences in an attempt to make your decision seem like the correct one for someone else.
One problem with Windows that hasn't been mentioned is how a Windows install turns to crap after about 1 year of heavy use. At least that's been my experience. Then you are faced with the question - waste a day or three re-installing? Or live with incredibly slow / crashing Windows?
Don't know if Vista has the same problem but then again, Vista is so bad it doesn't really matter. I'd wait for SP2 with that one.
OS X on the other hand doesn't break. That's because applications don't install themselves in a central registry - they live in their own folder structure, and to uninstall a crappy / broken app, you just delete it. On Windows, there's uninstallers which don't always work, system restore which doesn't always work, etc. Either way a badly written app will irrevocably screw up your system - it's only a matter of time. I don't think that fundamental flaw has been addressed in Vista either.
@nikster
Well you could just buy a registry cleaner, might even be able to find one for free.
@ nikster
you're obviously one of those mac users who listen to what jobs says and holds onto it like the words of life. yes mac CLAIMS all programs are self contained with no registry files but that is not the case, they do have registry files (not as much as windows, but they still do have them), just totally hidden somewhere where you will never find. this is speaking from experience of trying to clean up programs which when i reinstall still has my settings and data from my previous install.
Nixter, I can tell you that Windows takes only half an hour to install. I can tell you because I am always experimenting and I re-install windows, Linux, and Mac on my PC all the time(I don't dual boot) and Windows takes the least time.
6 months? ha! bollocks to 6 months. I've been running this thinkpad for 3 years without sending it back, and I expect that still to be the case in a couple of years. meanwhile, my flatmate has had his bacon frying macbook pro sent back back about 3 times in 6 months. as for windows, it is a pain, and I'd love OS X on here, but if you treat it well then it will be fine for...yeah, actually, 6 months, but thinkpads have industry leading support software, which makes it easy to back up and reinstall windows when necessary. basically, f**k everything else and wack ubuntu on there for general stuff, I've heard that many if not most engineers use Linux (who can say for sure?), and use windows only when you need to, thereby limiting its use and inevitable destruction. Apple makes great software to sell their shoddy hardware. Dell makes shoddy hardware because they don't have anything else. IBM designed thinkpads for professionals, so they last, end of. Lenovo seem to be doing an alright job keeping them going, I've heard that build quality is still top of the class as ever. Thinkpad keyboards are like top quality desktop keyboards, no joke. Anyway, when you just look at a macbook keyboard don't you just want to take a knife to it? and the mice?! oh spare me apple's intolerable input devices...
@Paul Chan
I'll never find them? Lets see: Users>Me>Library>Application Support (just Library>Application Support in come cases). Hey, that was fast, there are all of my preferences files. Lets see, delete the folder with the name of the old app and viola. Preferences files are gone, I'm free to start over.
@heeeraldo
$400-$600 is not an exaggeration at all, using the Dell and Apple US sites I just built two identical laptops and the difference in price came to $406 and thats without using a coupon on the dell, so you can take another $325 off the Dell essentially and you get an iPod with the Apple, this all works out to $400-$600. Personally the new Dell keyboards are excellent, I have hated every other laptop keyboard, backlighting or not. True for the other extra features but in my opinion don't justify the extra price.
@Dragoneye: in your original post, you used the education price for the base MBP ($1999) and specifically said Dell Canada. Now you're using Dell USA - pick one and stick to it.
anyway: configured an Inspiron 1520 and a Latitude D830 to the same specifications as before; both with Vista Home Premium.
The Inspiron came out to $1603
The Latitude came out to $1671, after promotion - it would've been $2126 without it.
US pricing on MacBook Pros is $1999 regular, $1799 Edu, and I'm not counting the free iPod - which would be $199 off the Education price.
It works out roughly to a difference of $200-400, depending on which store you're comparing it to. I'm not saying that it's an insignificant difference, just that it's not as big as you made it out to be.
I'm not a Mac fanboy or anti-Dell; I'm typing this from my roommate's Inspiron 6400, which is serving his needs well but wasn't what I was looking for, and at the end of the day, that's all you can really do: figure out what you need/want and what meets those needs/wants at a price you're willing to pay. Everything else is peripheral.
"Well you could just buy a registry cleaner, might even be able to find one for free."
That's not the point. Registry 'cleaner' programs are not the be-all and end-all of sorting out Windows problems.
The point being made is that OS X *doesn't need one to begin with*.
@ Abuzar
Yeah, and the rest. Driver installations, re-making settings, three or four restarts to update Windows and then update those updates, installing utilities and basic apps...
OS X still gives the option to to move all my files and applications over to a safe place, re-install the OS, and move everything back again, settings and all. That's an hour - hour and a half, but it's all automatic, and far less hassle.
If you want compatibility, go PC, if you want yuppie design and need to make a trendy fashion statement, go mac. Bottom line, many more programs are created for the pc, and in the crunch, it's much easier to find a free program that does exactly what you need, be it from download.com or a torrent. If you're doing media editing, then maybe mac's a good decision, but otherwise, after selling 'em for the past two years, I've found that mac's just an overpriced fashion statement.
in b4 bootcamp, parallels, ect.
haha, silly people still flaming on apple products as a "fashion statement." mac OSX is an interesting OS and like Ben mentioned, it's like a half-way point to Linux. it's also a very good idea in general just to know OSX and various other operating systems, especially if you're going into an IT or CS.
i've been a windows user for the majority of my life. recently, i decided to switch to the dark side and get a macbook for my college laptop. it does everything i need it for (web, media, chat). i do enjoy my macbook and wouldn't trade it for another laptop. the only thing i dislike is the time it takes to launch up parallels/VMware so for me, i just dual boot with bootcamp.
another thing to think about: don't think of the macbook as a gaming machine ever. it'll run warcraft 3, counterstrike, but battlefield 2 or half-life 2...don't even think about it. but that is why i have a desktop with vista for my gaming and bittorrenting.
you are an idiot.
maxxwizard
your completely wrong. hl2 runs perfectly on a macbook pro. actually everything runs perfectly in boot camp. its probably the best running machine i've used. i choose it for most of my production cad work as well as gaming over my dual screen custom built pc. it runs smooth, and w/ parallels i can work w/ my mac applications as well. plus i've had nothing but great experiences w/ apple support (yes, i know... some can't say the same). buy a mac. you won't regret it