Sony BMG's head lawyer says ripping CDs is "stealing"

There's one of them RIAA lawsuits going down in Duluth this week, and Jammie Thomas, the single mother charged with sharing 26 songs on Kazaa, isn't going down without a fight. Yesterday her attorneys called Jennifer Pariser, Sony BMG's head of litigation, to testify before the jury and got her to say some incredibly incendiary things -- not least of which was her opinion that making copies of purchased music is just "a nice way of saying 'steals just one copy.'" That viewpoint, of course, implicates pretty much every single thing consumers do with music and computers, including transferring songs to iPods and Zunes. We're betting there might be a couple jurors on the panel who aren't too fond of Ms. Pariser right now. Might want to check yo'self before you wreck yo'self, counselor.

Disclaimer: Although this post was written by an attorney, it is not meant as legal advice or analysis and should not be taken as such.

[Justin @ Oct 4th 2007 9:08AM]

My mom still uses Sony SonicStage to rip her CDs to her computer. Seems a bit daft for Sony to claim theft when they have software out there to help aide in the process.

[Geoffrey Sperl @ Oct 4th 2007 9:56AM]

Different Sony divisions.

That's the issue with large companies like Sony: They don't necessarily have the wherewithal to look at another arm of the company and ask the simple question of "What do you guys think about this?"

And, of course, that lack of communication makes the company (rightfully so) look like hypocrites.

[aaron @ Oct 4th 2007 11:11AM]

Yeah and you think Sony is going to be different with Fair use/Consumer Rights when it comes to BLU-RAY???!?!?!??

HD DVD all the way people...

[MasterCKO @ Oct 4th 2007 12:03PM]

Hrm, Ms. Pariser was called up by the defense for a specific reason (which she seemed to play into beautifully). Paint Sony BMG in this ludicrous light that it rightfully should be. I honestly think, though, that thanks to this little fiasco (and the damage that she's done to Sony's already ridiculous case), she's probably in deep shit back in the corp.

I mean seriously. Ripping CDs to computer is one of the very basic activities that consumers have done with their music for YEARS. There's no way in hell this is a representative viewpoint of a music branch of a major corporation. People can't be that stupid. If it is representative and they are that stupid, though, Good Riddance BMG division. The market will destroy you.

[Calviin @ Oct 4th 2007 12:25PM]

Geoffrey Sperl, I could not agree with you more. I was thinking exactly along those lines yesterday.

When the PS3 was being released last year, it had the potential to continue dominance in the videogame market. If they were sitting at the top of the sale charts now like they could have, then Bluray would be the Hi-Def format. The movie division of Sony should have gotten the videogame division to lower the PS3's price to $400.00 from the start, and they would have had a chance of being the market leader in both videogames AND movies. Instead, Playstation has floundered in last place in the market and the Hi-Def format war continues. At this point, since the Xbox360 has already dropped in price and they've now gotten a rep in the past year as not being the best choice, they actually need to drop the PS3 price to $300.00 to be able to take the lead. Instead, they're going to release a stripped down $400.00 version and maybe drop the 80GB version to $500.00. Someone needs to wake them up. The consoles may have a 10 year life cycle like they say, but if Sony wants Bluray to be the Hi-Def format of choice, they need to get people to buy the players. The PS3 has an advantage as a Bluray player in that if i buy one, even if HD-DVD wins the format war, I still have a game console. If I buy an HD-DVD player and Bluray wins, all I have is an HD-DVD player for the losing format. Risk is less with PS3, but price is too high. Drop the price to $300.00 and watch both the games and movies division take off. They won't, but they need to. Oh well.

[Phil @ Oct 4th 2007 12:58PM]

@ Calviin ^ ^

I see your point, but what about the Playstation 2 in all of this? And PSP? Sony is not just a one trick pony.

Sony dos'nt need to drop the price. PS2 is like printing money for them right now.

Ask yourself this. How come PS2's are still selling by the bucket load? Because the mass market takes time to catch up with people like us. So when we are seeing a substantial reduction in price of the PS3 in say 2 years time, PS3's will, in theory, be flying off the shelves.

In theory.... ;)

[fm @ Oct 4th 2007 1:34PM]

@phil-- I think that Calvin, whom with I totally agree with, is saying that the PS3 is the perfect example of Sony's branches not talking to each other. Calvin makes a great point, and although I don't want BR to win the war, they wouldn't have had to put up much of a fight against MS's format.

[Derbeste @ Oct 4th 2007 1:47PM]

Memo to Sony:

When you spend more time fighting your customers than you do your competition, THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG!

[mfed3 @ Oct 4th 2007 2:47PM]

@ aaron, totally agreed. hd dvd managed copy (a built in hd dvd spec) was supposed to be put right into media center / media player but delayed because bluray's spec doesnt support it as a standard. not until the mpaa approves the new bluray spec will this go through. ugh i hate sony.

[Bernhard @ Oct 4th 2007 9:14AM]

I think we need an "Open Songs" community sooner or later...

[Josh Warner @ Oct 13th 2007 1:13PM]

It's called Creative Commons; similar to GPL (or other free licenses) for software, but applying to creative works. http://creativecommons.org/ is the homepage; the Audio site is http://creativecommons.org/audio/

There is some pretty good stuff on CC already - check it out! It is completely free to do so, and to share yourself.

[Nick @ Oct 4th 2007 9:36PM]

Funny you should say that, I have been considering starting up that very thing recently.

[mlb @ Oct 4th 2007 9:16AM]

I have a 10 pack of Sony CD-Rs at the house right now. If this is their position, why do they sell the tools that allow us to "steal"? This reminds me of those Coke Zero ads where they try to sue the Coke brand for taste infrigement. Maybe the legal dept should sue the recordable media department...

[Greg @ Oct 4th 2007 9:19AM]

A rootkit is a nice way of saying "fascist."

[Ignatius @ Oct 4th 2007 9:20AM]

Yeah, I wonder if Sony will still admit they were being morons with the BMG ROOTKITS and all...

[JBo @ Oct 4th 2007 11:34AM]

I'm still pissed that nobody went to jail over that. I will not buy any Sony media ever again because of what they did. It wasn't just unethical, it was criminal.

[Ty @ Oct 4th 2007 3:12PM]

I hear that. I wonder if Sony realizes that people are deliberately downloading music off their label rather than purchasing it because of their attitude and the whole rootkit fiasco. I rip all the music I buy and I'll never buy a Sony BMG album because of the shit they might put on my PC.

[mlody11 @ Oct 4th 2007 9:20AM]

"It's my personal belief that Sony BMG is half the size now as it was in 2000," she said, thanks to piracy.

Well, even if this is the case, lets look at it this way... The music industry is still growing strong and is probably much stronger than it was in 2000. Do artists make less today than they did in 2000? Probably not because they get revenue from other things such as commercials, tours, etc.

The way I look at it, the music tycoons shot themselves in the foot with their approach to music distribution. If they are half the size now and the music industry is unaffected, hell they can go down in flames because apperently economically they are not needed.

As for copying my own music from a CD... Its exactly that mentality that endorses piracy. I feel like pirating some sony music now...

[SteveJ @ Oct 4th 2007 9:21AM]

Thank goodness we can get back to some good 'ol non-Apple bashing.

[g.Park @ Oct 4th 2007 9:40AM]

I've been trying to think of what Sony music I should pirate out of spite. I've been at it for about an hour, and I can't think of anything. It's a sad state of affairs when their stuff isn't even worth stealing.

[David W. @ Oct 4th 2007 9:44AM]

@ G-park, is the new Foo Fighters CD from Sony? I know their old one was, if this one is, it's a good cd :)

[squished18 @ Oct 4th 2007 9:52AM]

It is my personal belief that half a population of cockroaches is a start.

[Careful... @ Oct 4th 2007 10:01AM]

@SteveJ

Don't say the "A" word!! ...or any of the "i" words for that matter either!!

[Xzavier @ Oct 4th 2007 10:51AM]

Well I am going to say the "A" word... A$$HOLE

"Pariser suggested that what millions of music fans do is actually theft. The dirty deed? Ripping your own CDs or downloading songs you already own."

Question Mr. Pariser Einstein Sir. How can you STEAL something if you already purchase/own it? Either you need to have your head examined or your an A$$HOLE


"Countless studies have shown that the majority of music on portable music players like the iPod comes from sources other than download services."

I and everybody else out their "except for the greedy heads at BMG" didn't know if I/WE bought an iPod that I/WE "MUST" put mp3's/music for now, and later on soon to be, any type of data on and iPod/DAP/PMP/AIO/portable electronic device, etc from an *internet* corporate own download services, "if the BMG/other companies back by their lawyers get their way." Besides... what person would want to buy a CD and then come right back around and buy the same song again but this time with less quality off of the internet?

And as for the "I" word(s), I have too many to list here for BMG… Ignoramus, Incompetent, Irrational, Irresponsible, Idiots, Insensitive, etc, etc… BMG must think that we are Idiots??? Perhaps a small Insurrection at BMG will keep them busy with some REAL legal work!

[SickNic @ Oct 5th 2007 2:04PM]

@Xzavier

Thats the BS with these companies Xzavier. They don't consider you buying the CD. They consider you buying a license to listen to the CD. You don't own the music, you own the license, and you can't do anything with the music.

I call this complete BS. The biggest problem with the RIAA isn't that there is piracy. It's that they are unwilling to adapt to new technologies. Digital distribution is where it's at, and no one wants to use portable cd players anymore. You buy the music, you should be able to play it on any platform, and back it up if you want. As long as you aren't sharing it over the internet, it should be considered legal. The RIAA doesn't think so, and that is why they are losing business.

[Z @ Oct 4th 2007 9:23AM]

Dear Ms./Mrs. Pariser,

Kiss my ass.


Sincerely,

Rippy R. Ripster

[Grizz @ Oct 4th 2007 9:28AM]

OMG, I just STOLE Doom 3 off the install DVD.

[Mobius_1 @ Oct 4th 2007 10:23AM]

Does that mean i stole Windows??? Microsoft are gonna sue me soon...

LOL @ Sony

[g.Park @ Oct 4th 2007 9:35AM]

"Our products are just sitting on the shelves!"
"How can this BE?"
"Maybe nobody wants them?"
"IMPOSSIBLE! It's these damned blaggo-webs and compu-tubes! We're not losing money because we have a shitty product! We're losing money because everyone's a criminal!"

[andy @ Oct 4th 2007 9:45AM]

ps: in your scenario, I'd sure like to "lose" their money. To them, this "loss" is making 99.9 billion dollars instead of 100 billion dollars. Man, 99.9 billion dollars is a pretty cushy "loss".

[daaper @ Oct 4th 2007 9:46AM]

Exactly! Let's not adapt our sales and distribution to the new formats and complain that the old ones' numbers are dying down.

"What happened to our VHS sales?!?!? People must be stealing movies too...Alert the MPAA!"

[Dale @ Oct 4th 2007 9:48AM]

To echo sentiments expressed by other posters, if Sony BMG really consider the common activities of music fans to be illegal, they should start at the source: the consumer electronics divisions of their own bloody company.

It would take me a long while to list all the products their own company produces and markets that facilitate widespread "stealing"; and if they were to successfully stop these products being produced, Sony would be even deader than it already is.

[Trent @ Oct 4th 2007 9:52AM]

I read that this girl is facing up to $3M plus charges from each 26 songs they are trying to convict her for. I feel sad for her :(

Almost every music program allows "ripping" so why wont Sony go after those corporations?

Instead, they are going after a single mother who had a sharing program on her pc who did not make a single dime off of any song she allegedly downloaded or shared???

SAD SAD SAD

[andyg8180 @ Oct 4th 2007 9:54AM]

So if we arnt allowed to even rip the CD, then why does sony make an mp3 walkman?? And blank CD's, and put CD burners in their laptops, and allow you to move mp3's to the playstation3, and make memory sticks which say "put music on here" and make cell phones that play mp3z, and make car stereos that play mp3 files and make underwear that sings in mp3 format??

If anyone should be complaining, it sure in hell should NOT be Sony... We buy all their extra "accessory" crap which is marked up waayyyy too much... So, if we arnt ripping music or "legally" downloading (i laughed when i said that), then whats the use of all that crap they made??

speaking of crap, didnt they make that Roly Poly Ball thing that plays mp3z and rolls around the floor?
I think this is the link to it lmao... http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2007/09/sonys-roly-poly.html

HEY SONY!! NOT BUYING THE ROLY BALL NOW!! TAKE THAT!! (just kidding, im probably going to ask Santa to get me it)

[MEAT! @ Oct 4th 2007 10:03AM]

"Sony BMG's head lawyer says ripping CDs is "stealing."

Phew, with an anti-tech attitude like that, it's a good thing we live in a country where lawyers are not part of the legislative branch. Can you imag--... Oh, no.

[Anthony @ Oct 4th 2007 10:03AM]

Everytime I sync my iPod or make a copy of music to keep in my car rather than the original I write a formal apology to the major record labels and include 200 dollars.

You guys don't?

[joe @ Oct 4th 2007 11:00AM]

lol! I just buy 4 albums.
One for the iPod, one for the car, one just to play from the computer and one for work. That is what Sony wants us to do, right?

[Gordon @ Oct 4th 2007 10:09AM]

The fact that Sony is calling its customers thieves could be part of the problem for reduction of sales.

[deedeedee @ Oct 4th 2007 10:10AM]

South Park had it right, it's making music and having fans who like your music which should be what's important. If everyone's downloading your music, you should be glad to have that kind of fame, and if people like the music they will definitely pay to go to your shows anyway.

Sony and BMG are asses, but they aint changing their mind unless all their musicians start some kinda new hippie movement and decide to screw the corporation and have people download their album for free, "whatevr, I do what I want!" =) Oh actually Radiohead's been doing that...

[gorthog @ Oct 4th 2007 10:11AM]

According to Pariser's claim, simply playing a cd in any player is stealing. Even the most basic player must continually *copy* a stream of data into a buffer to enable gapless playback. Add oversampling and skip protection to the mix, and the player becomes one hell of a pirating device!

[reticulate @ Oct 4th 2007 10:11AM]

This reminds me, I've got to rip some BMG albums using my Sony DVD Burner.

Anyone want a copy on some freshly-unpacked Sony media?

[Mike_NYC @ Oct 4th 2007 10:55AM]

What's funny to me is that I just, like 2 days ago, replaced my old cd burner with a new Sony one which comes with Nero software that allows you to easily copy CDs, rip songs to MP3, and all the rest. Did someone miss a memo?

[Great Business Move @ Oct 4th 2007 10:14AM]

I just read an article on arstechnica that said that Ms. Thomas owns a couple hundred CDs. Sounds to me like she's a pretty good customer. How many do you think she'll buy now? Great business move.

[fino @ Oct 4th 2007 10:28AM]

Commerically this is a very serious mistake for Sony BMG to make. If it gets into the mainstream media, possibly commercial suicide unless its retracted.

The way I see it, Sony BMG are now saying that people who buy CDs and copy/rip them are stealing just as people torrent them without ever buying the original.

The big question now is who on earth would be mad enough to buy a legit copy of a CD?

Could someone please post a list of Sony BMG artists. I would hate to KNOWINGLY steal from them by copying/ripping a CD that I might buy in the future. And since I use an mp3 player then I better avoid any illegal activities by just not buying any Sony BMG CDs in future.

[h8rain @ Oct 4th 2007 10:31AM]

Wow I am a horrible person if that is true, because I have my music I bought (CDs and from iTunes) on my laptop, my work PC, my iPhone, and my AppleTV. I guess since that is "stealing" I am going to hell. (Don't tell anyone, but I converted my store bought DVDs to MP4 format and they are on my AppleTV)

The RIAA and the MPAA are really getting out of hand. The DRM and such remind me a lot of gun laws. If you want to legally own a firearm you have to jump through hoops to purchase one (even if you are a law abiding citizen). If you want to purchase a song, most likely, it will be crippled with DRM. On the other hand you can steal music and it can do anything. Criminals don't buy guns through the normal process, they buy "underground" bypassing the legal process. Gun laws do nothing to keep the guns out of the hands of criminals because UH DUHHHHHHHH don't follow the laws. You are only punishing the law abiding people. Same thing with music. If you want to be legit, you are punished by only being able to use the music you PAID for in certain devices/programs.

It's just utter bull.

[Derbeste @ Oct 4th 2007 1:13PM]

You just won the thread. VERY well said.

I never even thought about it that way before but your right. DRM isn't stopping criminals. It's just pissing off people who DO obey the law.

Btw....normally in ANY thread I read on Engadget, there are a least a few dissenting opinions. I've yet to see a single poster that agrees with Sony on this one.

That's not a good sign.

[ttringle @ Oct 4th 2007 10:33AM]

Hmm,

I have a great idea. Since Sony BMG want's to pretend that something everyone in the country has been

1. Asking and clamoring for, for the last 5 years
2. Has been a fair use right since the days of the first audio cassette
3. Is something that an entire industry has grown around

we should fight fire with fire.

The EFF should sue Sony the parent company for inducement (spelled right?) after all they produce numerous products that allow customers to RIP CD's to unprotected formats or just plain allow customers to "steal" that one song or album even if they are only making one copy.

I submit the following.

Here are the blank CD's designed specifically for music. While it helps keep us wicked thieves under control by not allowing others to rip our newly built compilation disc, it's obvious that they are inducing us to "steal" our music and put it on their blank CD. GUILTY!!!!

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/emd/439067959.html

Here is the new MP3 player from sony, since they know that 90% of the music on most MP3 players out there are "illegal" ripped music from future convicts, I mean customers own CD collection i propose again that they are inducing us to copy er, "steal" our music from our CD collections and put it on their shiny new MP3 player. GUILTY!!!

Sony PS3

This device is an inducers wet dream. I mean they are touting it as media center and since there is almost no legal media in digital form for us to consume it must be inducing us to copy or play back illegally obtained files. But the real kicker is from their own manual for the PS3.

http://manuals.playstation.net/document/en/ps3/current/music/cdimport.html

Yeah thats right it says CD Import baby, GUILTY!!!!

Enjoy

TimT

[ttringle @ Oct 4th 2007 10:35AM]

Sorry folks that first paragraph should read.

===============================================
I have a great idea. Since Sony BMG want's to pretend that something everyone in the country has been

1. Asking and clamoring for, for the last 5 years
2. Has been a fair use right since the days of the first audio cassette
3. Is something that an entire industry has grown around

"is illegal" we should fight fire with fire.
===============================================

[strider_mt2k @ Oct 4th 2007 10:35AM]

Man that's stupid.

[SENATOR @ Oct 4th 2007 10:36AM]

What about holding a microphone up to my speakers and recording songs that way? Is that stealing? Because, that's how I roll.