European Blu-ray Chairman calls HD DVD Group's actions "unbelievable"

While it's not exactly a surprise that the Blu-ray folks are getting in yet another tussle with their counterparts in the HD DVD camp, the latest comments by the Blu-Ray Disc Association's European Chariman Frank Simonis do up the ante quite a bit, with some alleged misrepresentation of data on the HD DVD Group's part drawing most of his ire. More specifically, according to Tech.co.uk, Simonis is upset at the significantly higher "attach rate" that the European HD DVD Group recently touted, which Simonis now says was a "gross misrepresentation of data." Simonis goes on to claim that the HD DVD Group "manipulated" the data, adding that, "you can see this because they did not even supply access to the original source of their numbers." As if that wasn't enough, he then further slams the HD DVD folks by saying, "Honest to God, the Blu-ray Disc Association would never do this. We've seen so much rubbish come from the HD DVD Group it's unbelievable."

[Thanks, Micheal]

[Luke @ Nov 13th 2007 1:43PM]

Wow, I guess he learned how to argue from Engadget comments.

[eagles4life @ Nov 13th 2007 5:35PM]

BD will win the fight. their sales are leading HD-DVD around the world

[Blake Bowen @ Nov 13th 2007 1:45PM]

Ah, politics.

[marc @ Nov 13th 2007 1:46PM]

Sounds like a desparate man to me.

[jdang @ Nov 13th 2007 1:50PM]

Not sure if he's desperate or not, BD is killing HD DVD in Europe.

[jason51873 @ Nov 13th 2007 5:54PM]

Yea really!

I mean do people really want Sony's hands in every single move and player being used?

Why cant ppl open their eyes and see that if BD wins Sony is going to have a monopoly on media. Do you really want that ppl?

[hh83917 @ Nov 13th 2007 1:48PM]

So what if HD-DVD groups did manipulate data and such... HDDVD players are selling for 99 bucks. Blueray players are still expensive for regular consumers. Unless you have a PS3, it's still not as affordable as hddvd players.

[Jimmy @ Nov 13th 2007 2:19PM]

They are not $99 in Europe, and never have been, and they are not $99 anywhere in America right now that I know of. The low end A2 unit is about half price of the PS3 in America so they are still considerably cheaper.

[cbhwr @ Nov 14th 2007 3:20PM]

Cheapest I could find was €199, or 290 US dollars - basically 3 times the price you are quoting. Next was €340, or 496 US dollars.
That said, Electromania's cheapest BD player €429, but it must be selling over here, because everywhere I look (and I travel a lot, in Europe and outside), BD movies have 2-4 times the shelf-space that HDDVD does - 8 months ago, you could not even find HDDVDs over here.
So, not sure I trust the attach-rate (unless they only sold very few players), pretty sure I dont trust 99 US Dollars player thing.

[Jensen @ Nov 13th 2007 3:00PM]

Actually there was a USD$98 player in the USA and it was featured on Engadget a week or two ago.

[Andir3.0 @ Nov 13th 2007 3:54PM]

It was $98 for about a week while the supplies lasted.

[Nick @ Nov 13th 2007 3:54PM]

no matter what the price strategies.. its not okay to be putting out false information and data to suade consumers.

[JK @ Nov 13th 2007 1:49PM]

Gee he sounds upset. Did the HD DVD camp proclaim "the war was over" and that they "were the winners" or something? I mean the Blu Ray camp would never be that arrogant and pompous would they? :)

[Sean L @ Nov 13th 2007 1:52PM]

I'm sorry, where are his facts to support his "belief" that the numbers were false? Like noted above, he seems to have gotten his response directly from one of these blog sites!! :D

[John @ Nov 13th 2007 1:53PM]

Those godless HD-DVD folks. We should make war on those heathens.

[Arthur Nonamiss @ Nov 13th 2007 2:34PM]

TASTES GREAT!!

[Arthur Nonamiss @ Nov 13th 2007 2:34PM]

LESS FILLING!!!

[Andir3.0 @ Nov 13th 2007 3:55PM]

Your supposed to let someone else reply with "LESS FILLING!!!" It's kind of pointless arguing with yourself.

[Reader @ Nov 13th 2007 4:14PM]

err first time I've seen this, but the tastes great thing isn't the new can it play doom is it? Please say no...

[Andir3.0 @ Nov 13th 2007 4:20PM]

I hope not.

[Raptor007 @ Nov 13th 2007 5:35PM]

But... will it blend?

[Patrick @ Nov 13th 2007 5:56PM]

Yes! I recently learned what "will it blend" refers to. Nice blender, it is!
On topic...what is the format of choice by Ron Burgundy? I'll for sure go for that one! :D

[Peter Sills @ Nov 13th 2007 1:55PM]

Remember a few things:

1) Sony's CEO Howard Stringer admits that things are not looking as they should for BD-DVD and that if it were up to him in the past, he would have unified the format (hardly the words of someone who is winning).

2) HD-DVD players are now going to be well under $200 world-wide with new $99 Chinese players coming on-line soon.

3) HD-DVD is not trailing in Europe, it is leading - sorry, check the European Videoscan numbers.

4) I can see the "attach rate" being so bad for BD if you count the PS3 as a player. You can't have it both ways. If you don't count the PS3, then HD-DVD is outselling on players, if you do count it, then HD-DVD has a better attach rate by a large margin - simple math.

[dmdallas @ Nov 13th 2007 2:42PM]

yeah, but what HD-DVD has been doing lately was to show that the attach rate was so low* and the the they sold more players**.
* only when the PS3 is counted in
** when the PS3 isn't counted

This is what people call "fudging the numbers". It's what companies do to make their results look better. Not to say HD-DVD is losing, but I don't think they are doing quite as well as they write out on paper...

[Larz @ Nov 13th 2007 2:55PM]

Do they count Blu-Ray for PC in any of these numbers? I know several people who bought a Blu-Ray burner/reader a few years back simply because they could burn 25 gigs on one disc.

[Ihar `Philips` Filipau @ Nov 13th 2007 2:55PM]

@dmdallas, this is precisely my understanding of Stinger's words about format war stalemate. Both camps spends tremendous amount of money on the spinning - ensuring that media departments of the supporting companies for many years would stuck in red.

I have no clue who would win, but I'm sure that all the lost money now would result in next disk format being even more expensive.

[Static @ Nov 13th 2007 3:15PM]

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents

I before hand apologize for posting such a long article but here goes the meat and potatoes.

"Now then... we wanted to say a few words about all the recent brouhaha over Sony CEO Howard Stringer's "stalemate" comment from last week with regard to Blu-ray and HD-DVD. I don't know how many e-mails I've gotten in the last few days on this, either from HD-DVD fans eager to gloat that Stinger was clearly conceding the format war, or Blu-ray fans wondering why Stringer was being so pessimistic. As it turns out, he wasn't. I've done a little digging over the weekend, and have managed to obtain a transcript of his actual comments. Remember how last week, during Blu-ray fest, Warner Home Video's Dan Silverberg's comments were taken out of context by supporters of both high-def camps to suggest that Warner was about to chose sides in the format war? Except that's not what he actually said or meant to imply? This is the same sort of thing... yet another case of much ado about nothing.

The deal is this: Howard Stringer was being interviewed by Business Week's Steven J. Adler about his career at the 92nd Street Y in NYC on Thursday. He was asked a few questions about Blu-ray Disc and the format war, and he spoke about it for maybe 5 minutes out of a 90 minute interview. Here's the actual text of the relevant portion of the interview:

---begin excerpt---

Adler: Of course, one of the big fights right now is Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD for the high definition video market. I mean, the first and most obvious question is: Shouldn't there just be one format? Why should people have to choose between the two? And is there any possibility that we'll be heading there?

Stringer: I should point out that that is not part of the software battle. I mean, that's actually in some ways sort of anachronistic. We're fighting over a packaged goods hardware that will not go on forever, from a classic sense. We have a more expensive version, as Sony tends to, and Toshiba has a cheaper version, which seems to keep getting cheaper. I believe it has slowed down the progress of high definition packaged goods. Oddly, the studios kind of liked it for a while. They were able to leverage one of us against each other. But in the end, it's counterproductive. We have a sort of stalemate at the moment. As you know, they had fewer studios, but then they paid a lot of money for Paramount. So we have four studios and they have two or three studios. It's a difficult... it's a difficult fight. There was a chance to integrate it before I became CEO. This is something I inherited. And I don't know what broke down. I wish I could go back there, because I heard it was all about saving face and losing face, and all the rest of it. But it's not a battle about the digital future. That's what's so strange about it. If it doesn't work out, that doesn't say very much about where we're all going. It's just... it's a scorecard: one-nothing or something. But it doesn't mean as much as all that. PlayStation 3 will still go on playing games. It would have to have a different disk drive. And that's about it really.

Adler: So when a consumer now has to choose between the two, if they want to get into the high definition video, Wal-Mart was selling the Toshiba HD-DVD for $99 last Friday for a couple of days. Usually, it's been $199 there. I think your list price is $499 for Blu-ray. That's an enormously big difference, particularly in a slowing economy. Can you play that game with the difference being that great?

Stringer: Well... we've been selling them as fast as we're making them because the brand -- first of all, we're not the only ones selling them at that price. So is Panasonic, so is Samsung, so is Sharp. And one of the reasons it's more expensive is because it does more. The bandwidth is greater. If you just want a two-hour movie, the Toshiba version is a high definition picture. But we thought that to drive high definition into the customer's imagination, you should future-proof the disks so that you could have director's cuts, which are fairly obvious. We have six to seven hours of bandwidth available. You can have interactivity in three dimensions. We would be prepared to allow the package goods to survive much longer by making it much more innovative. But that does make the player more expensive. Now, they all come down. The race is to bring costs down. It always is in consumer electronics. So it isn't going to stay at $499.

Adler: But are you surprised by how little Toshiba can sell its unit for?

Stringer: No, because -- look, I can sell it for a dollar. I'd lose a lot of money, but if you want to go that route, it's a tough competition, and it seems to be about a lot of things, including face. So if you want to cut the price down and engage us in a price war, that's a different system. We were trying to win on the merits, which we were doing for a while until Paramount changed sides.

Adler: Microsoft seems to have an interesting role in this. They're selling add-on HD-DVD drives for the -- they're taking HD-DVD to the Xbox, and Xbox competes strongly with you. Is Microsoft kind of working in cahoots or in alliance with Toshiba on HD-DVD? Is that a competitive challenge to you?

Stringer: Only the spirits know. [laughs] Yeah... you never know with Microsoft do you? You never know. Xbox versus PS3 is sort of a subplot. What Microsoft's role is in that? I don't know. We're still selling software at a faster level than Toshiba. Obviously, we care about the software side more than the Toshiba does. It doesn't have a studio. It doesn't own a studio. So it's in our interest to -- actually the most significant thing in some ways about Blu-ray, going back to Microsoft... the Blu-ray Disc has a very high security level, which Fox in particular, but also other studios, was most excited about -- wanted to have some protection from instant ripping. So the specs that went into the Blu-ray, which were done in conjunction with many studios, had this security level. That is probably not in Microsoft's interests. The Toshiba disk is certainly far easier to rip. Whether you like that or don't like that depends on your consumer enthusiasm.

---end of excerpt---

That was the extent of it. Naturally, the one comment out of the entire 90 minutes (or even this small portion) that the AP ran with is the stalemate bit. Since then, it's been spun like crazy. We've seen commentary from people who weren't there proclaiming what a "remarkable admission" it is. Some have even gone so far as to claim that Stringer declared Blu-ray a failure and that Sony is about to give up the battle. All of which mischaracterizes what he actually said and meant.

Hey... this kind of thing happens, especially when people let their passions over this stuff get the better of them. We've even occasionally made the mistake of jumping to conclusions in the past ourselves. But here are the facts: Sony and the rest of the BD camp's commitment to Blu-ray Disc hasn't wavered in the slightest, and from everything they've ever told me both on and off the record, that isn't likely to change anytime soon. And while we're at it, Warner supports BOTH HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc, and from everything they've ever told me both on and off the record, that isn't likely to change anytime soon either. So everybody can relax and take a deep breath. If you're a Blu-ray fan, enjoy all the great Blu-ray titles coming out now. If you're an HD-DVD fan, same thing.

It's just another day in this silly format war, which at this point has been taken to unfortunate extremes by some. As we said last week, it's worth keeping in mind that no kittens will be harmed in this thing, whatever the outcome."

Yes, ever since this all started the amount of spin and FUD from the HD-DVD camp and its supporters were unbelievable. Before the PS3 was released and the BDA got their discs in order you would have believed that Blur ray would never outsell the competition. After it was released... it was just a fad.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/11/09/nielsen-videoscan-high-def-market-share-for-week-ending-november/

Ever since the PS3 was released in each area it has started outselling HD-DVD. Thats the reason you see and attach ratio instead of a sales one. IIRC the us is over 2:1, europe 4:1 and japan is 9:1. That is the rate of sales apparently. Time will show past all this spin. While the Blu ray camp is full of bravado I don't recall them ever had to spin their sales into attach ratio's.

[Peter Sills @ Nov 13th 2007 3:42PM]

WOW!

Where to begin?!?! I have BOTH formats and do not really care who wins the damn war, since I think that they've BOTH really screwed this one. In the end Microsoft WINS if both lose as this is the last format war over delivery media. Microsoft is poised to absolutely win the content over the internet war - that is a done deal already.

However, what I have a problem with is this ABSOLUTE NONSENSE about HD-DVD providing SPIN and FUD in this war when I can see nothing of the sort. I work with video production and can tell you that Sony, more than any other company on the planet, engades in more FUD than anyone.

Sony FUD:

1080i vs 1080p is a BULL-$HIT concoction. For FILM content - there is NO DIFFERENCE!! However, they constantly promote that there is and "ding" anyone who isn't.

BD+ is a SUPERIOR copy-protection scheme. Actually BD+ BROKE AACS and was TRIVIAL to circumvent. Taking only a few days to break once Fox released a retail BD+ disc.

Versions of BD from 1.0 to 1.1 tp Advanced Profile systems. Are these being advertised to the consumer? Do people know that they will not be able to use so-called "Advanced Features" on their first or second-gen devices?

Sony releasing BD 1.0 players only days before Profile 1.1 was to be a REQUIREMENT!

BD-50 requirements when using MPEG-2 vs. the VAST MAJORITY OF BD Discs using only 25gb, or 5gb less than EVERY HD-DVD!

BD-DISCS which attempt to mimick the features of their HD-DVD counterparts by including TWO COMPLETE VERSIONS OF THE FILM IN LESSER QUALITY ON THE SAME DISC!!!

Give me a break, Sony has either counted the PS3 as a player or not in their mix depending upon how the numbers best work for them. BD-DVD ONLY EXISTS SO THAT SONY COULD TRY TO MAINTAIN ITS MONOPOLY OVER DVD PATENTS WHICH WERE LAPSING. MOST OF THE CHANGES IN BD ARE NOT NECESSARY OR BENEFICIAL! Remember that Sony was an initial member of the team which developed and adopted the HD-DVD standard - only dropping out once they decided to create a competing format to increase their revenue share.

This entire "WAR" is Sony's doing - do not mistake that. And, it is all about your money ending up in Sony's pocket.

Lastly, let me point out how poorly the PS3 is STILL DOING in the videogame ware - due almost in its entirety to the use of the BD disc.

1) They are much more expensive BOTH from a drive and disc manufacturing point of view than DVD.

2) There is NO NEED for the ridiculous additional capacity over standard DVD. No one will use it - you haven't seen an XBox 360 title have less capabilities because of it.

3) While the disc can hold more data, its Data-Transfer Rate (or speed at which it can stream data) is MUCH slower than standard multi-speed DVD. Thus games and game levels load much more slowly than off of a standard DVD.

BluRay was a mistake from day one! It is not a consumer driven product, but a Sony greed driven product. While I support both because I want all of the content I can get, I do not, in any way, support Sony in this case.

[Andir3.0 @ Nov 13th 2007 4:13PM]

First, BluRay != Sony.

1080i vs 1080p is a BULL-$HIT concoction. For FILM content - there is NO DIFFERENCE!! However, they constantly promote that there is and "ding" anyone who isn't.
------ I have an analog 1080 set and I have to tell you, yes, there is a difference. 1080i has horrible flicker when I hook up an interlaced digital signal.

Sony releasing BD 1.0 players only days before Profile 1.1 was to be a REQUIREMENT!
------ Read my first point again. YOU ASSUME that Sony has total control over BluRay.

BD-50 requirements when using MPEG-2 vs. the VAST MAJORITY OF BD Discs using only 25gb, or 5gb less than EVERY HD-DVD!
------ You might also want to mention that it cost more per disc to press a dual layer HDDVD than a single layer BD... Just trying to be fair here.

This entire "WAR" is Sony's doing - do not mistake that. And, it is all about your money ending up in Sony's pocket.
------ Read my first point again. Your proving to be more and more of an uneducated fool.

Lastly, let me point out how poorly the PS3 is STILL DOING in the videogame ware - due almost in its entirety to the use of the BD disc.
------ It has nothing to do with the lack of games in teh first year. I'm absolutely sure on that. Oh, and with that assuredness, elephants do fly.

1) They are much more expensive BOTH from a drive and disc manufacturing point of view than DVD.
------ As is all technology.

2) There is NO NEED for the ridiculous additional capacity over standard DVD. No one will use it - you haven't seen an XBox 360 title have less capabilities because of it.
------ Maybe for RIGHT NOW, but games are and have been using a full 4.5G AND 9G of the current DVD capacity. Some games now are even coming compressed on two DVDs and decompress to over 15G on your PC. How cool would it have been if Oblivion had more than two dungeon tile sets? What if they added different areas with different foliage and different looking ruins all over the map? That takes space for the models alone. Look at the size of Vanguard (it's 18G installed FYI) The world is pretty big and each area has different buildings, trees, dungeons, etc., etc.

3) While the disc can hold more data, its Data-Transfer Rate (or speed at which it can stream data) is MUCH slower than standard multi-speed DVD. Thus games and game levels load much more slowly than off of a standard DVD.
------ On average, a 12X DVD ROM is slower actually. In the end it balances out. Sure, you could go up to a faster DVD, but let's be realistic here, your talking about the 360.

BluRay was a mistake from day one! It is not a consumer driven product, but a Sony greed driven product. While I support both because I want all of the content I can get, I do not, in any way, support Sony in this case.
------ Well, here we are, back on point number 1. I think we've all learned a lesson here today. You hate Sony because your un-informed.

[hothotdisco @ Nov 13th 2007 4:21PM]

@ Peter Sills

You are a fool because blu-ray is in fact outselling HD-DVD in Europe by a ratio of 4:1. HD-DVD was doing better back then because Blu-ray barely had any studio support but now they have major support from Studio Canal among many others. Keep dreaming though HD-DVD fanboy.......

http://gadgets.qj.net/Blu-ray-sweeps-Europe-winning-4-to-1-against-HD-DVD/pg/49/aid/103769

[Static @ Nov 13th 2007 4:51PM]

And this goes to show spreading FUD and misinformation actually works. Not only that but that when the head of the BDA says something it is automatically assumed that a sony rep said it, even though the head of the BDA is from philips. Then you get this rant about sony proprietary tech.....except blu ray isn't a proprietary sony tech and had 7 other companies behind its development.

The dvd forum chose rightful successor to DVD... I used to see that but that seems to have quieted down. Maybe people found out the truth. Blu ray was never submitted to the DVD forum (maybe it should have, thats probably what stringer is saying) but it doesn't matter because 8 out of the 10 dvdforum founders support. blu ray along with 180+ out of 210 associates of the dvdforum. Looking at those numbers it should be obvious that playing the dvdforum card isn't the best course to take.

As far as space being used in video games considering devs ARE using that space i would have thought that the arguement would have died down but I see there are people who don't work in the industry that feel compelled to speak for everyone in the industry.

This war is mainly because of an incredible hatred of sony. All of the HD-DVD supporters except one just seem to get one to stick it to sony. One of my friends got it because of the universal movies.... then shortly afterwards he purchased a PS3 and started watching blu rays as well.

I am a stones throw away from getting an HD-DVD player (high end) but I am preparing to go back to school. I love Universal movies. I prefer blu ray because of its selection. And time will only show a growing gap in amounts of titles available.

[Cris Alves @ Nov 13th 2007 8:43PM]

@Andir3.0-Sills gave a good argument. Your responses were childish and uncalled. Back up your statements with facts.

080i vs 1080p is a BULL-$HIT concoction. For FILM content - there is NO DIFFERENCE!! However, they constantly promote that there is and "ding" anyone who isn't.
------ I have an analog 1080 set and I have to tell you, yes, there is a difference. 1080i has horrible flicker when I hook up an interlaced digital signal.
***I have a 1080i and 1080p and I cannot tell the difference. You are comparing an analog TV to HDTV.

Sony releasing BD 1.0 players only days before Profile 1.1 was to be a REQUIREMENT!
------ Read my first point again. YOU ASSUME that Sony has total control over BluRay.
***BD originated from Sony, period. Sills statement is true. They did release players with 1.0 days before 1.1 was a requirement. Research it.

BD-50 requirements when using MPEG-2 vs. the VAST MAJORITY OF BD Discs using only 25gb, or 5gb less than EVERY HD-DVD!
------ You might also want to mention that it cost more per disc to press a dual layer HDDVD than a single layer BD... Just trying to be fair here.
***It has been consistant, and Sony has admitted this: it is cheaper to make an HDDVD disk than BD because the tech is basically the same. Again, research it.

This entire "WAR" is Sony's doing - do not mistake that. And, it is all about your money ending up in Sony's pocket.
------ Read my first point again. Your proving to be more and more of an uneducated fool.
***You have resulted to name calling. This is always a sign that you have no intelligent argument to a statement.***


Lastly, let me point out how poorly the PS3 is STILL DOING in the videogame ware - due almost in its entirety to the use of the BD disc.
------ It has nothing to do with the lack of games in teh first year. I'm absolutely sure on that. Oh, and with that assuredness, elephants do fly.
***Last checked, Sony had approximately 65 titles for ps3. Research, research.

1) They are much more expensive BOTH from a drive and disc manufacturing point of view than DVD.
------ As is all technology.

2) There is NO NEED for the ridiculous additional capacity over standard DVD. No one will use it - you haven't seen an XBox 360 title have less capabilities because of it.
------ Maybe for RIGHT NOW, but games are and have been using a full 4.5G AND 9G of the current DVD capacity. Some games now are even coming compressed on two DVDs and decompress to over 15G on your PC. How cool would it have been if Oblivion had more than two dungeon tile sets? What if they added different areas with different foliage and different looking ruins all over the map? That takes space for the models alone. Look at the size of Vanguard (it's 18G installed FYI) The world is pretty big and each area has different buildings, trees, dungeons, etc., etc.
***It has been well documented that ps3 is not up to its potential. Video games aside, how smart is it to believe that movies will use up to 50g. I have always said that BD is a computer platform.


3) While the disc can hold more data, its Data-Transfer Rate (or speed at which it can stream data) is MUCH slower than standard multi-speed DVD. Thus games and game levels load much more slowly than off of a standard DVD.
------ On average, a 12X DVD ROM is slower actually. In the end it balances out. Sure, you could go up to a faster DVD, but let's be realistic here, your talking about the 360.
***This is about movies. BD loads slower than HDDVD. For the average consumer, this is an issue as most want things to work immediately.***

BluRay was a mistake from day one! It is not a consumer driven product, but a Sony greed driven product. While I support both because I want all of the content I can get, I do not, in any way, support Sony in this case.
------ Well, here we are, back on point number 1. I think we've all learned a lesson here today. You hate Sony because your un-informed.
***Sony has never made anything that benefits a consumer(Memory stick comes to mind). I don't knock it because they are in the business to make money. However, let's be realistic, BD was proprietary from day one. It was created in order for Sony to corner a market and gain royalties. In addition, you have resorted to name calling once again. You call the man uninformed; but I say again, he has presented his argument. You have lost yours by attempting to debase him.***

[daedric @ Nov 14th 2007 2:57AM]

@Cris: There is a difference between 1080i and 1080p, i is interlaced and p is progressive. Interlaced would require hardware to deinterlace it, and if you have good hardware, I guess you probably can't tell the difference, but to say there is no difference just means you don't know what you're talking about.

Anyways, Sils clearly stated that it was about transfer rate in regards to BD speed, and it was pointed out to him that he is incorrect, a 2x BD drive is faster than 2x HDDVD drive and faster than 12x DVD drive and so forth. The fact that you changed what sils stated as a problem of slower transfer rate to about movies does not make sils correct. So as far as the argument goes, you are fatally flawed.

[Peter Sills @ Nov 14th 2007 10:03AM]

First a quote from a fellow developer working on one of the largest games out there for both the PS3 and 360 platforms. "GameSetWatch has singled out a tidbit about the PlayStation 3 version of Oblivion that's sure to ignite fanboy ire. According to comments made by Bethesda's Todd Howard in the latest issue of EGM, the development team is using extra space on the Blu-ray disc to duplicate crucial data and improve load times. "Drive speed matters more to me [than capacity], and Blu-ray is slower," Howard told EGM." Also, this is not uncommon and is being done a lot on the PS3 to increase load times.

Second, deinterlacing a 1080i to 1080p signal is TRIVIAL if that is all you are doing, and in the case of FILM source material it is. You are confusing 1080i/1080p TRANSMISSION with DISPLAY. ALL 1080 sets sold today are DIGITAL (sorry if you still own an analog HDTV - then this does not hold, but you are less than 1% of the market). It DOES NOT MATTER if the signal is sent in Interlaced or Progressive fashion to your set as your set will not display the frame until it has ALL OF THE FIELDS! It does not matter if they come in odd then even or sequential, your set will display EXACTLY the same image from either a 1080i or 1080p film sourced material.

As for the comment you need to have a GOOD DEINTERLACER this is BUNK! Any set should be able to put together the lines in proper order as this is trivial to do. Now for some video materials, mixed mode materials, etc. you may need to have a better deinterlacer - but most every set has a very competant chipset.

BTW: As you ay or may not know, just about every 1080p player out there, BD or HD, actually has such a chip in it and is taking the 1080i signal from the video stream and integrating it back into 1080p on output. This is done so that additional materials, overlays, etc. can be more easily integrated into the video stream prior to output.

[Cris Alves @ Nov 14th 2007 6:01PM]

Anyways, Sils clearly stated that it was about transfer rate in regards to BD speed, and it was pointed out to him that he is incorrect, a 2x BD drive is faster than 2x HDDVD drive and faster than 12x DVD drive and so forth. The fact that you changed what sils stated as a problem of slower transfer rate to about movies does not make sils correct. So as far as the argument goes, you are fatally flawed.

***This topic is about movies, BD format vs. HDDVD. I stated in my comments that BD is best described as a computer platform. BD is best used as a computer platform. However, BD movies are slower than HDDVD movies. When someone wants to watch a movie, they do not care about whether or not 2x BD is faster than 2x HDDVD. The average individual does not care. They just want to watch it now.

The "war" is not going to be decided by the techs. It is going to be decided by Joe Average... He wants he movie playing now, in High Def, from an inexpensive player. I repeat, BD is a computer format and should be marketed as such. We, geeks, are the only ones that care about disk space.

[alex @ Nov 13th 2007 1:55PM]

Yawn....let me know when something REALLY develops (like the failure of both of these formats) and not this pointless childish bickering (ooh look mommy, he's lying). Like I give two rats ass who's giving me bogus numbers. They're both pretty much cut from the same cloth.

[Ryan Trevisol @ Nov 13th 2007 1:56PM]

Honest to God? Oh, great, now GOD's involved? Well I'm sure God has a multi-format player, because we all know the Big Man has Spiderman 3 and Transformers.

[John Stracke @ Nov 13th 2007 3:06PM]

What does God need with a starship--er, DVD player?

If he existed, he'd be omniscient. So he wouldn't need a TV screen; he'd just need to remember some time when it showed on a movie screen.

[Fruition @ Nov 13th 2007 1:56PM]

Fellow Engadget readers! I have gained the ability to foresee the future! Allow me to demonstrate by predicting the future of this comments section!

I see... BD faboys and HD-DVD fanboys both claiming their format is superior... Then someone will say that multi-readers will prolong the war and end up allowing both formats to live indefinitely... Oh, and there will be over 50 comments.

I am psychic!

[Fruition @ Nov 13th 2007 3:00PM]

Gawd I fail.

[John Stracke @ Nov 13th 2007 3:14PM]

I personally don't care which one is superior, because I doubt my eyes are good enough to tell the difference between DVD and HD. Just get the war over with, and sooner or later I'll wind up buying an HD-Ray player for the interactive features.

[jmattick @ Nov 13th 2007 2:00PM]

This is like MP3 vs. AAC
Or DivX vs. WMV

The formats are going to be around for a while...

Why bitch about it and take one of their sides?

Competition makes things cheaper for us, and the fanboys who flock to one format over the other, are a bunch of idiots.

I don't care if one has more features than the other, give the other format a month or 6, and it'll have better features too...

[Nathan @ Nov 13th 2007 2:17PM]

Actually that's not an entirely accurate analogy, both DivX vs. WMV and AAC vs MP3 vs OGG, these battles are all hardware independent (no, I'm not talking about iPods vs. WMA players or DivX hardware), they just require the installation of a codec on the end-user's computer. When it comes down to it I don't need to spend any money to play back any of these files on my PC but I can't just pop a BD or HD-DVD in my DVD drive and make it work, I need the right hardware.

It's important that one prevail in the market soon as either (most likely BD) has a chance of becoming arbitrary in the event the opposite format wins this Beta vs VHS remix. That is going to leave all the early adopters up crap creek without a paddle.

Most people don't even know the difference anyway, in fact most average consumers outside of my circle of techno-loving friends have no idea what BD even is. They think it's a special feature version of the DVD. You say HD-DVD, well everyone knows what HD is thanks to HDTV so there is definition implied just by the name, no so with BD.

[Anthony @ Nov 13th 2007 2:00PM]

I'm usually the 1st to jump on new technology but I'm so glad I've stuck to my standard DVDs (plus I almost never buy DVDs anymore).

They look great upscaled, cost virtually nothing these days & I don't have to worry that they won't play on most every device out there.

This Blue Ray / HD thing is quite frankly bizarre.

Is there going to be "one winner" or are they going to fracture the market & turn people off - moving them to online content (yes, lower quality, gees) much sooner than they would have otherwise?

[Serengeti @ Nov 13th 2007 2:34PM]

I feel the need to correct a misconception of yours.

" ... & I don't have to worry that they won't play on most every device out there."

There are multiplayers out there right now, and in the future, there will be more and they will be better. In fact, presuming one format fails, you'll see either Toshiba or Sony HD/BD players. Once the competition fails, the other will support the former, and they'll proclaim they're doing it for the consumers good (imagine a Toshiba advertisement: "Don't throw your old BD movies away! The HD-A500 will play every format known to man!"

If you want to be concerned with throwing $100 bucks away, well, fine. But don't be afraid of your BD or HDDVD collection suddenly becoming obselete.

[SENATOR @ Nov 13th 2007 2:02PM]

As a member of the Isolinear Chip Alliance, I hope both of these formats burn in Sto'vok'or.

[IndiaTech @ Nov 13th 2007 4:52PM]

You don't burn in StoVoKor, you dine with Khaless...

[E.J. @ Nov 13th 2007 2:05PM]

Both sides are guilty of spinning sales numbers for marketing reasons.

It's just, now, they've lowered themselves to finger pointing/wagging and name-calling.

Well, you know what? My honor student can beat up your honor student!

[farfisa @ Nov 13th 2007 2:09PM]

I hear their dads are going to fight now.

[Anthony @ Nov 13th 2007 2:47PM]

I heard that same. It will air on Spike TV later tonight.