Sigma's DP1 with 14 megapixel APS-C sensor gets a waffle not a release

More than a year since its announcement, Sigma has released an official update on the progress of their DP1 anomaly. According to Sigma, the delay is the result of poor image quality delivered during testing necessitating a "change to the entire image processing pipeline." Alpha tests of the redesign began in early November with no date given for production. Remember, this is slated to be the first compact to feature an APS-C sized image sensor found in DSLRs -- no easy task. In this case, we're talking the 14 megapixel FOVEON X3 found in their SD14. At least that was the plan. Sigma now says that the specs will change from what was originally announced. Bottom line: Sigma will be rolling out a redesigned compact with unknown specs on an unspecified date. Clear?

[Dave @ Nov 30th 2007 9:02AM]

does someone need 14mp in a compact? when's enough enough. image quality... not quantity..

[mmh @ Nov 30th 2007 9:09AM]

I do, as long as it delivers the same high quality.

[Geir E @ Nov 30th 2007 10:12AM]

Remember this is foveon, 14 mpixler means 4.68 megapixler in 3 layers (red/green/blue). a regular bayer sensor filters the light that enters the sensor, foveon has sensors on the same pixel for the different colors. the result is a better color render in theory. yet to really prove any better in the real world.

the camera looks like a classic rangefinder. But i won't be buying one. still, i follow foveon to see what happends there. cause the idea is good.

[Ricardo @ Nov 30th 2007 10:12AM]

14 mp is a good resolution for that size of sensor. More resolution is always better if the sensor is also bigger.

[Snowdog @ Nov 30th 2007 11:03AM]

This is a sigma using the same chip as in the SD14. It is not really 14MP, but 4.5 MP x 3 colors. It does have a big DSLR sensor thouhg. Too bad it is a sigma, I would love to see Canon or Nikon do this. I would love a compact camera with a big sensor.

[Temple @ Nov 30th 2007 1:16PM]

@ Snowdog

Agree, I would love Canon/Nikon to make a high-end compact with DSLR sensor. Nikon used to have the 35Ti back in the film day, titanium bodied high-end compact that went against the other compact in that segment the Contax G1. Right now the Leica M8 really is the only one offering high-end compact digital (also the Epson RD-1 that takes Leica M-lenses), but the Leica is ~$4,500.

[pscs @ Nov 30th 2007 9:10AM]

it really looks old fashioned. my sony does 10mp :P

[almostinfamous @ Nov 30th 2007 9:30AM]

i doubt your sony has a 24x16mm sensor and can be carried around in a (jacket) pocket without bein noticed

[Drakhart @ Nov 30th 2007 11:35AM]

In fact this isn't the first compact to feature a full size APS-C sensor. It was Sony's DSC-R1, released the late 2005, with 10mp.

And no, it couldn't be carried around in a pocket. =)

[Temple @ Nov 30th 2007 1:19PM]

The Sony DSC-R1 is kinda a cult hit; its one of the few digital cameras that have gone UP in value. Right now a used R1 sells for more then it was new.

[Fred Snyder @ Nov 30th 2007 11:05AM]

Foveon has been trying for years to get their chip into a consumer camera. The last go round was a collaboration with Polaroid called the X530. This started back in 2003 or 4 and they even showed it at CES in 04. See if you can find it. The launch date just kept getting moved out again and again. a check of their site shows it never made it, or if it did it died a quick death. While I would welcome a point and shoot with this chip I have my doubts that it can be done since the first go round didn't come to fruition and the fact that they ran into image quality issues on this try means they didn't learn anything from the first try. This said I do believe in the chip and the DSLR's they make have outstanding picture quality.

[SandyF @ Nov 30th 2007 1:13PM]

Hi Fred, just for the record, I have and enjoy using the x530 with the smaller Foveon imager chip and have many photos online with the x530. I bought mine in September 2005, but they are not currently sold new to the best of my knowledge. You can find some of my x530 photos by searching www.pbase.com by camera under search by camera, Polaroid. The image quality can be excellent -- but the other specs like processors, screen, and other components just don't do justice to the Foveon sensor. You can see the sensor specifications and sizes on www.foveon.com
The Sigma SD14 uses a different, new, larger, sensor than the x530. Also use pbase search/camera to see photos or view www.pbase.com/sigmadslr for photos by many Sigma users.

[Amin Sabet @ Nov 30th 2007 9:45AM]

The DP-1 doesn't deserve this much attention. The lens doesn't have the light gathering ability to take full advantage of having such a large sensor. More importantly, they announced this product over a year ago! I'll be interested when this camera is "In Stock" for purchase. Until then, the updates are just as annoying as the lack of updates.

[Don @ Nov 30th 2007 10:10AM]

@Amin "The lens doesn't have the light gathering ability to take full advantage of having such a large sensor"
That is a bit beside the point, or if anything, it _IS_ the point that makes this camera relevant. Compact cameras don't have great lenses in general and one aspect of their problems is that they are slow (i.e., they do not let in much light) which means that compact cameras usually need to shoot at a relatively high ISO. The problem is that most compact cameras have sensors the size of a small fingernail. This means that few photons are hitting each sensor which (at the required high ISO) results in Noise, Noise,Noise!!!

In the good old days of film, you could take a reasonable quality point and shoot (such as my old rolie) and in many instances you could get an image that is indistinguishable from an SLR. That is effectively impossible to do now. The sensor size of this camera is way more important than it having 14mp.

This camera will not appeal to the general crowd, but for those that have been spoiled by a good sensor, it has been eagerly (and frustratingly) awaited.

[Electromodo @ Nov 30th 2007 10:20AM]

This is inevitable that compact cameras will be following DSLRs in megapixel war. But I agree with you completely: from what I read about this camera, the lenses do not match the sensor.

You can not have all high-end parts mixed with consumer-oriented lower-end parts together, right? Is it the reason the image quality was so bad?

[MacAnkka @ Nov 30th 2007 10:39AM]

Just because the lens is slow, doesn't mean the lens can't produce high quality photos. As a matter of fact, a faster lens would be a lot more complex and they'd have to compromise on either image quality, size or price. So there is some logic with their choice.

Making a high-quality f/4.0 lens is a lot more easier than making a high-quality f/2.8 lens.

[Drakhart @ Nov 30th 2007 11:30AM]

"Compact cameras don't have great lenses in general and one aspect of their problems is that they are slow (i.e., they do not let in much light) which means that compact cameras usually need to shoot at a relatively high ISO"

What? Compacts have slow lenses? Let's take a look at the Panasonic FZ18: 28-504mm / 2.8-3.1. Canon SX100: 36-360mm / 2.8-4.3. Sony DSC-T200: 35-175mm / 3.5 - 4.4... You must be used to 2.8L and 1.4 lenses, man, cause I don't see the slow lenses anywhere.

If fact that's the advantage of compact cameras, that they need lower ISO than the normal SLR kits, that usually move in the aperture range of 3.5-5.6.

Nice budget, that one you have.

[almostinfamous @ Nov 30th 2007 12:04PM]

"Let's take a look at the Panasonic FZ18: 28-504mm / 2.8-3.1. Canon SX100: 36-360mm / 2.8-4.3. Sony DSC-T200: 35-175mm / 3.5 - 4.4."

actually, those are equivalents... the actual focal lengths are much smaller, (like 6mm etc etc)

[murray @ Nov 30th 2007 1:14PM]

@Drakhart: "What? Compacts have slow lenses? Let's take a look at the Panasonic FZ18: 28-504mm / 2.8-3.1. Canon SX100: 36-360mm / 2.8-4.3. Sony DSC-T200: 35-175mm / 3.5 - 4.4... You must be used to 2.8L and 1.4 lenses, man, cause I don't see the slow lenses anywhere."

Generally "fast" means better than f/2, so those lenses you quoted are slow (though the first one is moderately fast at the wide end).

[Roman @ Dec 2nd 2007 1:00PM]

This sucks, I was hoping it would be out by spring of 2008, but now it looks it might never materialize. The current specs of the camera hit the sweet spot of compactness and image quality. Such a humangous sensor, in a tiny camera, if properly implemented was bound to yield fantastic results. This is sad.

[tdiguy1 @ Nov 30th 2007 11:41AM]

Foveon has been trying for years to get their chip into a consumer camera. The last go round was a collaboration with Polaroid called the X530. This started back in 2003 or 4 and they even showed it at CES in 04. See if you can find it. The launch date just kept getting moved out again and again. a check of their site shows it never made it, or if it did it died a quick death. While I would welcome a point and shoot with this chip I have my doubts that it can be done since the first go round didn't come to fruition and the fact that they ran into image quality issues on this try means they didn't learn anything from the first try. This said I do believe in the chip and the DSLR's they make have outstanding picture quality.

[T-Bone @ Nov 30th 2007 1:16PM]

Why is your post exactly the same as another person's post?

[Bombaclaat @ Nov 30th 2007 11:08AM]

my favourite covert ops cam.

[Tony @ Nov 30th 2007 12:20PM]

Sigma?

I can already see everyone crying 'quality control!'

[Roy @ Dec 1st 2007 7:38PM]

Snowdog wrote "It is not really 14MP, but 4.5 MP x 3 colors." The average (non-Foveon) sensor is 50% green pixels, 25% red pixels and 25% blue pixels, i.e., a 12MP "normal" sensor is 6M green pixels, 3M red pixels and 3M blue pixels. Go read the sensor data sheets. At processing time, the adjoining pixels are combined to get RGB values for each output pixel. So, Foveon isn't inflating MP claims more than any other manufacturer. Also, Foveon has the theoretical advantage of better color linearity, as all 3 colors are sampled at a single pixel, instead of adjoining pixels.

[Andreas @ Nov 30th 2007 1:35PM]

It's really nice to know that they're still on the project, and that they give us a clue of what's going on. I was looking forward to this very much. I'd love a range finder camera with this kind of image quality.

[Barry @ Nov 30th 2007 2:26PM]

It's a bit silly. Past 6 megapixels, the lens is a much bigger factor in the quality of the photo than simply cramming more megapixels on the sensor. I'd take 6 MP and quality glass over 14 MP and a crap lens, any day of the week.

[David @ Dec 1st 2007 2:19AM]

There is nothing in this article about waffles!