How would you change the outcome of the format war?
By Darren Murph 
posted Feb 22nd 2008 6:30PM
posted Feb 22nd 2008 6:30PM
From the get-go, Toshiba proudly proclaimed that its format wasn't a work-in-progress, and while Profile changes left early Blu-ray owners out of luck when trying to access more advanced features, sales numbers just seemed to always fall in Blu's favor. Truth be told, we know many of you simply wish the two would've nailed down a pact from day one and cranked out a single next-generation format, but being that said scenario didn't exactly pan out, how would you have done things to change the outcome of the format war? Would you have tweaked the approach of either side to get this mess over with months ago? Do you feel the "best" camp won out? And would you have bit the bullet and offered up a combo drive in the Xbox 360 if you flew the flag in Redmond? We've all ideas this one's going to get raucous in no time flat, but for everyone's sake, try to think more with your mind and less with your heart, cool?
bluray bouys out HDDVD, makes a subsidary blu ray format outta HDDVD and then get's killed by digital downloads right after bluray's profits of over 5 billion dollars in one month :P
um...
that's my exact response right after I posted that. I can be stupid at times and I even notice it.
The push strategy that HD DVD and Blu-Ray decided on was really crappy. Consumers had NO choice in the matter, and frankly, I still don't know the differences between the two. HD movies are simply not ready for mass markets; people are happy with their DVD players and don't even realize that movies *can* look better. Case in point, I think that instead of the race to get the product out to the market, both companies should have just taken the time to develop their products further and waited for the consumer demand to increase.
I'm close to that. Instead of Digital downloads though-
Some telecom gets rights to distribute everything on TV and DVD for a monthly fee. They can be viewed on a set-top box or PC.
Blu-Ray and HD-DVD become high-density data storage.
Who cares? DVDs work fine. There's just no need for HD media right now. Sure, some people will go for an HD format, but for myself and almost everyone I've spoken to, plain old DVDs will more than suffice while HD downloads go mainstream.
DIGITAL MEDIA DOWNLOADS will not mature until the average home gets a 15MbpsDown/ 10MbpsUP FIOS connection.
In order to get High Definition media (and even standard media) over lines it takes a long time. I have Verizon Fios (5/2) and it takes me 20 minutes to download 1.8 Gigabytes. The industry won't commit to high speed downloads until speeds are drastically increased.
The really disturbing part is that you can openly walk the streets as a CUBS FAN.
Forget the format wars, this is a sure sign of the apocalypse.
I live in Chicago, so there aren't really people yelling at me or cussing, except for the bloody white sox fans.
also, what's your basbeall team? Marlins?
well they are both crappy standards. and the fact that the one full of drm from a company with "great customer experience" history (sony: rootkits, as closed products as possible - mylo which died because of that, the darn sony memory stick and so on) won is not helping either. For now lets just say that 4,6 gb of hd xvid will do just fine for me :)
Completely irrelevant, and I apologize for that, but I can't help it. I hate to break it to you Cubswillwin, but in the who-can-even-remember number of years since the Cubs last won the series, the Marlins have won it TWICE. And they've been in the league for like 15 years... Seems the baseball situation is better in South Beach than on the North Side... Yeah... and those South-siders have even won it.
@ CUBSWILLWIN
Really, you live in Chicago? I never would have guessed by looking at your name and your avatar. Nope. Not a clue how anyone could have ever known.
I have a toshiba gigabeat, v60e and my software is no japanese, I just can not make it work on my pc, need some help downloading drivers or programs, or where can I purchese a new disk software for this wonderful hdd, and video mp3 player.
thank you
Go Big Blu!!!
Let's see...
perhaps instead of buying exclusivity agreements with millions of dollars, you, as Toshiba, foot the bill and provide free drives to Microsoft to install in their X-Box 360's... or subsidize the cost of the add-on and make it free via a rebate.
But what do I know?
Fact is, Microsoft probably never wanted to commit completely to HD-DVD. If it did, it would have been quite natural to make a version of the Xbox 360 with a built-in HD-DVD drive; and the format would not - probably - have died this sudden death.
How would I change it? It would never have happend to begin with. Blu-Ray was the way to go from the start.
Umm, having a unified single format from the beginning?
That would have been like, totally awesome.
Too bad Sony decided to be whiny brats and split from the unified format to make their own.
Sony asked for a single format early on, but Toshiba told them to go pound sand and the war was on. I am glad Blu-ray won and I think it is better that they did not compromise. The only thing I would have changed was a shorter war, or no HD-DVD to begin with.
Travis.John,
It's the other way around.
well sony knew they had the better product and refused to back down. and thank god they didnt. capacity wise hd-dvd couldnt compare. not too mention those bright red cases were horrible.
HD DVD came from the DVD forum, the group in charge of DVD. It was Sony who insisted on switching to a blue laser, to increase their profit. When the consortium said no they took their ball and went home. The higher capacity won over some hardware backers, but I bet they didn't count on Blu not being complete for years after red (it still isn't complete).
I love higher capacity (I am a geek after all), but red is more complete, as a format. And more robust. I chose red for those reasons and I don't regret it. But when a profile 2.0 player is available for $200 or less I will buy one. Until then my hi def discs are red (I own albout 50 and if the fire sales are as cheap as I hope I'll pick up another 50-75). Besides if I really, really want to watch a blu movie I can grab the ps3 from my living room and do so.
@ genaldar
What are you talking about? Sony went blu laser to increase profit? First both hd formats are BLUE LASER. Sony is not the only bluray backuper, just the company who risked more (ps3) And yes hd dvd was a very complete format and cheaper.
yeah, awesome if your communist.
That's my vote too. It sure didn't hurt DVD adoption or prices!
TavisJohn and genaldar - What the hell are you talking about? Did you both port in from an alternate reality.
Sony and Toshiba each had proposals. So did Matsushita, Pioneer, and others. Sony and Toshiba both tried to start consortiums - Pioneer, Matsushita, and just about everyone else joined up with Sony. NEC and Sanyo joined with Toshiba, who was already working with Microsoft on HDi.
Sony didn't split at all, and Blu-ray is a group effort - Sony is believed to only own about 30% of the IP in BD. HD DVD, on the other hand, is almost all from Toshiba. *Toshiba* was the break-away company, NOT Sony. People let their 'Sony hate' blind them.
And genaldar, HD DVD did not come from the DVD Forum. HD DVD was originally called AOD by Toshiba. They developed it and THEN took it to the DVD Forum for a vote. It *FAILED* a vote to be accepted as the next standard, twice. It was only after the DVD Forum added three more voting members *and* change the voting rules that it passed on another vote and became HD DVD - and Toshiba just happened to chair the DVD Forum while all this voting on their spec was going on.
And both BD and HD DVD are blue laser - exactly the same blue laser diodes even.
you sure de howstuffworks says he-DVD is a refined red laser
They both use 405nm lasers, which is a BLUE laser, as opposed to the 650nm red laser used in DVD.
Megazone nails it!
And I'm sorry genaldar, but if I don't see how HD-DVD was complete or more robust. Did you ever try buying an HD-DVD burner? No? Because you couldn't -- not unless you forked over $3000 for a Toshiba laptop, as that was the only way to get one. All for a whopping 15GB.
Blu-Ray burns at 6x already, and can do 50GB.
-Pie
I didn't know that both HD DVD and Blu-ray use the same laser... so can anyone tell me what makes Blu-ray player a lot more expensive than HD DVD player? I don't understand that how can HD DVD player be a lot cheaper while Blu-ray disc is cheaper to produce...
But Esat, that would save people money!
@ benjasmin - Because Sony makes products that last for like 100 years. Seriously, I can still play my PS1. Sure the graphics aren't as cutting edge but the thing still works. XBox? I think not. That thing broke about 2 years after I bought it. Also, Sony's players output at 1080p, so you're paying for an adapter that takes the image on your TV from great to downright killer. If you ever see a Blu-ray disc on a blu-ray player hooked up to a 1080p Sony TV, you know what I'm talking about. It's freaking surreal. Side by side comparison, Blu-ray was better. Besides, Sony lost the VCR war, they had this coming.
kt, thanks for the reply. I guess that's one of the reasons, too. But I believe there are other reasons as well, since Sony is not the only company that makes Blu-ray players...
When new formats like DVD and VCR came out, the price was high, too. If you look at that way, Blu-ray player's price is actually normal. New technology almost always come with a premium. HD DVD didn't follow the normal trend. I guess Toshiba must did something to make their players so cheap. Maybe selling the players at huge lost? or maybe they made some deals with the movie companies? I don't really know...
Would have been better if HD-DVD or BluRay was never even here and we had 1 format from the start! But then again, prices would have not been so competitive
Ummm. Hmm. I wouldn't have changed anything, Let me be real low-ballish here.
Ahem.
WE WON YOU LOST! NA-NA-NA-NA NA-NA-NA-NA HEY! HEY! HEY! GOODBYE.
I know boasting is totally off-topic here, but GOD did I hate HD-DVD supporters.
Isn't that the song from the Tide-To-Go commercial?...
HD-DVD is not dead! It is just a flesh wound!
and like 50 nail wounds!
FINAL nail wounds
hahaha! i'm not even gonna read further comments i'm satisfied now.
OH THAT'S GOOD! HAHAHAHA
austin++
1) I think the name "HD-DVD" was really boring when compared to "Blue Ray". If I was Toshiba I would have looked for a better, more attractive name.
2) When you compare storage capacity, HD-DVD sucked when compared to Blue Ray. I would have increased capacity if I was Toshiba.
3) I would have forced Microsoft to have an HD-DVD with in every XBOX 360.
it's blu ray, without the E and capitals. No capitals are always sexy. :P
Besides, Blu-ray has 2 syllables, HD-DVD has 5.
I know which one I prefer.
CBSWILLWIN
pardon me for my spelling mistakes...I guess I'm not nerdy enough to remember how blu ray is spelled correctly.
If you didn't notice, I was kinda joking around there.
CUBSWILLWIN
no harm meant...not being nerdy, is not always a good thing in this forum ;)
"VHS" was a lot more boring than "betamax."
ya, and betamax had better quality...that one was kinda weird.
Well, HD DVD had the advantage of being descriptive; if you saw an HD DVD player advertised, you knew it was a DVD player for your HDTV.
The downside, of course, is that it's such an obvious name; I'm sure there were people who got extra confused because they thought it was a generic term.
I don't think HD DVD was a good name because of its simplicity, Blu-ray isn't a good marketing name for a disc. Many people know what VHS, and DVD (even though it never originally stood for anything) stands for. With Blu-ray the normal consumer that buys the Up-converting DVD player, doesn't know/care that it uses a Blue laser. I think it was to much thinking on BDA's part and too Little thinking on Toshiba's part.
@Carl Vitullo:
yeah, but VHS had porn
I think HD DVD was actually a terrible name. It caused a lot of confusion in "average Joes" who thought it would play in their DVD players as long as they were attached to an HDTV. Blu-ray is a clean break and you KNOW you need a new player, just like DVD was a clean break from VHS.
I wouldn't change a thing. Blu-ray's victory was like my home team winning the super bowl, and watching the game is half the fun.
Wait, that's a lie, I would've given the 360 blu-ray compatibility to start with. That is all.
"Blu-ray's victory was like my home team winning the super bowl"
How sad. You don't get out much do you?
Sir, you call yourself Dusty Nipples on the internet. I rest my case.
I was from the start on HD-DVDs side since it was managed by a consortium and not a huge corporation. That sounded so noble...
But I guess this is good too.
I just wonder how big of a difference Engadget made in the war!
At least in the last months of the war there has been post after post about how Bluray has already won and HD-DVD is doomed. How many times did you pronounce it dead now?
um, Blu-ray Disc Association.
That is all.
So at the start, you had Toshiba, Microsoft, and Universal on side. Then you had Sony, Phillips, Pioneer, Sharp, Panasonic, Samsung, Disney, Sony Pictures, Fox on the other. I don't see how:
Toshiba/Microsoft/Universal > Sony/Pioneer/Sharp/Panasonic/Samsung/Phillips/Disney/Fox
The blu ray consortium was formed by Sony, after the dvd consortium told them no to the switch to blue lasers. But Sony owns the format.
After Blu-ray media outsold HD DVD for a straight year, it was becoming obvious which way consumers were leaning. More importantly, in the last months of the war, HD DVD standalone players were being outsold by Blu-ray players. That's at more than double the price! I'm afraid only those who were completely invested in HD DVD would have thought it had any chance at that point.
Sony doesn't own the format, and Blu-Ray was created by both Sony AND Pioneer...
I would go Cartridges. Fuck disks.
Old NES-like cartridges FTW!
Does that mean you'd have to blow into it before you could watch it?
I honestly thought that HD-DVD was going to prevail simply because of the name: many people (as of 3 months ago) has little idea that BR was actually a new format, but there was not mistaking the meaning of HD-DVD, what with the acronym being shoved down our throats on everything from TVs to Radio etc.
I do think the power play was Sony dropping a BR drive in ever PS3, which inadvertently exposed millions of people to the benefits of BR as a bonus. If MS had dropped one into the XB360 at launch (instead of making customers buy an external drive) I think it would have been a lot closer of a race.
Stand alone units had a price advantage with HD-DVD from day one. Finally I would have liked to have seen studios stay out of exclusivity agreements until far later in the game or even not at all.
Overall, however, I am glad that this crap is over with already, now if we can just keep the BR camp from jacking up prices since they effectively have a monopoly on HD Media distrobution.
Ok, well I just read that and it is full of errors. When I saw "MS should have dropped one" I of course mean an HD-DVD drive. Also, when I say as a bonus I mean "as a bonus to the fact they bought it for games."
There, now I can rest easy.
I agree with Nathan. Everything that he said . . . with emphasis on "Sony dropping a BR drive into every PS3." It's a huge reason why HD-DVD couldn't topple Blu-ray.
Putting a HD DVD drive in the xbox 360 would have near impossible given its early release date. Perhaps they could have played the multi sku game like Sony, but it would have increased the asking price.
I honestly don't know. On one hand MS should have put HD-DVD drives into the 360 and completely usher it in. At the same time Toshiba should have went to Nintendo and fronted the HD-DVD tech and put it in their system (although Nintendo probably wouldn't have done that anyway.
On the other hand, there really was not anything you could do about Blu-Ray since it was "technically" better in terms of the medium it self (disclude the software since HD-DVD won in that area until 2.0 came out).
I think the only thing really different would be for Blu-Ray to still use the red laser like HD-DVD so that they both could be truly compatible.
AKBlade13
They both use Blue Lasers. It's the packaging that is decieving.
Really? People still think HD-DVD uses red lasers? Is it cuz of Engadget going Red vs. Blue every post?
Unless I'm mistaken (which is entirely possible) HD DVD players do not contain a blu laser, they rely on the red light wavelengths to read the data (as for what color laser is used in burning discs I couldn't say).
HD DVD uses a blue laser, just like Blu-ray. Red refers to the packaging. HD DVDs come in boxes with a red stripe passing through the HD DVD logo. Blu-rays come in packaging with the Blu-ray logo in blue. This is where red vs. blue comes from.
as i posted before:
They both use 405nm lasers, which is a BLUE laser, as opposed to the 650nm red laser used in DVD.
Blu ray win sooner and ps3 with blu ray recording
What would the PS3 had done if BD had lost? Would developers keep releasing games on a non-standard format? Given that the PS3 was Blu-Ray, the console would be totally screwed had Blu-Ray lost. If the Xbox 360 had gone with a built in HDDVD player, HDDVD might have stood a chance.
I think the blu-ray discs would have just been proprietary PS3 discs. almost like cartridges. no movies, but games/software only.
I'm really happy with how things turned out though. I think blu has a longer life in front of it than HD-DVD would have had if it had won. With the capacities being what they are, blu can keep upping content and quality for longer. HD-DVD would have had to give way to "the next format" much sooner than blu.
What makes you think adding HD-DVD to Xbox 360 wouldnt have sealed the same fate for the console (if HD-DVD were to lose out) as you believe the PS3 would have suffered if blu ray lost? Anyway, how many systems can you use your 360 disks on? One perhaps.. Or your little DS cartridges? So why would developers stop using blu ray disks simply because they didnt take off in the film market?
@ Paul
True as that may be, the success of the PS3 is greatly influenced by by Bluray being the victor. For instance, someone like myself would pick up an XB360 instead (larger installed base/games), but the PS3 has a larger value proposition and now the tides will turn due to others like myself.
Re: Aarun, there's no way this "war" would have been done so quickly if Sony were on the losing end. For one thing, even they didn't have the movie studios backing them, they could always rely on PS3 games to move units. Toshiba COUNTED on the movie studios support. Without it, well, you saw what happened.
One of main problems I saw was that HD-DVD was touted as being cheaper to produce than BD, and that DVD production facilities could be retrofitted to make producing HD discs. However, HDDVD and BD titles were priced identically. You really want to gain a hold, Toshiba? You should have made the prices for discs more attractive. So you offer a player for $150...big deal. That's something I'll buy every few years. Make it cheaper for me to keep buying movies and you'd have a supporter for life.
And for those who say the consumer is going to get screwed now that there's only one format, I'd say although BD won out over HDDVD, they're still a huge underdog in the fight against plain ol' DVD. They still need to make their product pricing attractive to consumers, so don't worry...there isn't going to be any price gouging on discs or players.
Ok, SB I get your point and it does make sense. That was exactly what I was trying to figure out, so thank you.
I think it worked out perfectly. Sony seemingly was going down the sh*tter, to the point where you _almost_ felt sorry for them - Sony the 'underdog'. So many blunders...
And then, a change in the winds. A faltering console and format intertwined came back with a vengeance at the turn of the year. The evil empire rises from the ashes yet again.
It's a pretty awesome story, I'd almost pay to see it in theatres. Or at home on my soon-to-be-acquired PS3 when it comes out on Bluray. With my Netflix account of course, no freakin way I'd pay that for a movie.
That is a very blind statement. Sony is one of the largest electronics manufactures in the world. Not to mention they have their hands in lots of other stuff, i.e. sony pictures, sony music, and sony banks. They have made more advances than any one else in the industry, it is bound to be a fact that they also have the most failures. This is how it works. Also they, unlike other developers out there, never stop after a failure, they power on and look to the next thing they can develop. That is how they have always been.
And for all those who say that betamax was a failure you may want to look at the video system that your local, national, and international networks all used up until digital was released. That's right for nearly 30 years it was all betamax from sony. While VHS was shared by all manufactures Sony held the commercial market for years. That meant cameras, editing suite equipment, and playback equipment.
I would have had Engadget supporting HD-DVD so we wouldn't get 5 "told you so" posts every day.
Engadget supported HD-DVD from the start; they just post these stupid stuff so they don't look stupid. If the ps3 owns the 360, they will do the same.
See the main problem on this was Microsoft not pushing HD as far as they could. instead of MS buying out everyone, we had sony run around paying people (like entire chains of retail stores) to push gayray. So Sony was MS, MS was watching. its all a bunch of foreplay really. MS used HD for a coupla years, and i am almost perfectly sure they already have blu ray external drives coming at us.
but, thank heavens i have my HD DVD drive. it is the better format, and it is delicious. like judge fudge delicious.
oh and toshiba sux lol they suck almost as much as people who support sony in any form
I would keep the war going to bring prices down faster. Competition can be great for the consumer.
It was way too early to start a new format. From what I hear DVD upscaling isn't that bad at all except maybe for very demanding people, for whom current HD standard is probably not enough either... The technology advancement between DVD to HD-DVD/Blu-Ray wasn't nearly as revolutionary as VHS to DVD. They should have waited at least 5 years before starting to ship something really new.
Hear, hear. In 5 years, we might have compression tech that would let a regular DVD hold an HD movie; then we wouldn't need any of this mess with blue lasers.
Geez...what is the use of this article? This is a dead horse and you are beating it.
Give it a rest people.
That's a pretty harsh picture for the topic, no arms, no legs..... RATED R!
You should really watch "Monty Python and the Holy Grail"; that is one of the funniest moments in film's history.
It's just a flesh wound.
Its MONTY PYTHON! completely appropriate, really funny, and he WILL bleed on you!
I have a Tosh XA2 HD DVD, 360 HD DVD Player, and a PS3... I think I have a pretty objective opinion...
I think both technologies are great, and each has its PROs and CONs. HD DVD was great because it offered combo discs, and had a finalized spec and standard for each player including HDi. Blu has the storage advantage, and both had great PQ.
I think at the end I would of preferred HD DVD Win over Blu simply because the movies I invested are truly portable across platforms. I loved 300, because it can play in HD or SDVD that was a great selling point. Also I think the cost effectiveness from a production standpoint allowed consumers to save at the end with lower cost per title.
If I can go back, I would have to say, if the 360 had the trojan horse, and came built-in with a HD DVD player from the get, it would of slaughtered Blu and the PS3 swiftly, but without Microsoft's complete support it made it difficult. We all know that history repeats inself, and add-ons in gaming's history never end up working out. some examples are the SEGA CD, 32X, Turbo CD, all were great ideas, but at the end they all suffered the same Fate.
One thing that did come out of this is Blu learned and advanced their PQ, developed BDi and the competition was good at the end for consumers because it helped drive the price lower. Now without a true competitor although the indusrty can grow,I think consumers will pay the price...
No a 360 with a HD-DVD would have extended the format war and lost the console war for MS at the start. People were and still are complaining about the ps3 price at 399 which is the original 360 price, now add 150 to add hd-dvd and your cost for the system is at 549. Nobody in their right mind would spend even 500 for a system known to have problems and offer less than a PS3 for that price, so in the end MS did what was right for them.
I wish we had one format from the beginning with the awesome specs of Blu-Ray and the fantastic preparedness of HD DVD. (HD DVDs specs weren't so hot, and Blu-Ray is still way under-prepared)
yeah that would have been great, but that's not whats being asked here...why do people keep bringing that up!?