OSx86 Project not too happy with Psystar either
By Nilay Patel 
posted Apr 16th 2008 1:12PM
posted Apr 16th 2008 1:12PM
Uh-oh, it looks like wannabe Mac clone maker Psystar has more than one licensing issue with the Open Computer: the company didn't get permission from developers working on the OSx86 Project to sell their work. Netkas, who developed the EFI emulator Psystar is using, posted up a blog entry yesterday calling Psystar "liars" and has re-released his code under a license that specifically forbids commercial usage. We chatted briefly with Netkas and he told us that not only did Psystar take his code without permission, it's using other code from the project like the NVInject graphics patch developed by Gotoh, and that he contacted Psystar when he learned about the Open Computer with no results. We also talked to several other members of the OSx86 scene who believe that Apple is tolerant of (and even subtly assisting) their efforts, and are worried that the Psystar flap might end that relationship and bring the hammer down -- after all, there's no Psystar without OSx86.Interestingly, when we called Psystar to get comments on all of this, Rudy Pedraza, the president, first wanted to know if we could make Netkas call him, then denied using the EFI emulator, then repeatedly asked us for Netkas's phone number (in Russia!) so he could talk to him directly, and then finally promised to call us back. Yeah, he never called back. That's a lot of uncertainty around a pair of machines that haven't shipped from a company with two different addresses that's been in business for less than a year -- and Apple hasn't even gotten involved yet. At this point we're going to say that if you really want a hackintosh, you're likely better off rolling up your sleeves and building one yourself -- you'll probably have it done well before this whole mess gets sorted out.
Read - Netkas blog posting
Read - The Guardian "So exactly who or what is Psystar?"
Read - Psystar listing at the Florida State Department website
"you'll probably have it done well before this whole mess gets sorted out."
Not really, the OSx86 project can't stop them selling the machines.
Yea, they havent shipped one yet. Yet, you can build one today, all by your lonesome. I'd say the article is pretty dead on in that respect. 1 fail for you.
Amazing. How one "company" can just steal so much from so many in such a short time. Then sell their stolen products as their own, to ensure that the copyright lawsuits will cost 5x more than what they made selling the products.
This is the king of shady business practices for 2008.
Actually, though the legality of OSx86 is dubious, the patches and emulators that Netkas, tubgirl, and others develop ARE intellectual property. Concievably, the OSx86 crowd (which I will not say whether or not I am a member of) could sue Psystar out of business, although they probably wouldn't want to bring that sort of attention to themselves.
The biggest problem is that Apple may target OSX86 now that it thinks OSX86 may be a bigger threat than it originally realized.
This hurts everyone.
Selling on OSx86 for commercial gain is no different than selling pirated software for commercial gain.
I'm glad Netkas has re-released his software under a non commercial licensing agreement, hopefully everyone else will too.
Well, I guess that's a bit weird anyhow, 'rereleasing software with a different license', this means that the software/source which was already out there isn't subject to the same license (they should have thought of that before the released the software/source).. Otherwise it would also be possible to just change the license completely to having to pay for it, so that would mean anyone who already was using it should have to pay, that's something that wouldn't hold up in court..
True enough, but then all Apple need to do is make a slight change to the EFI, Netkas can modify his and all previous hackintosh's are rendered useless/nonupgradeable until they install his new EFI with the non commercial agreement.
Where's the claim that they're selling the software?
Are you saying that it is unacceptable to charge money for the service of installing free software and making sure it works on purchased hardware? If so, you better tell Redhat and all of the other companies and I.T. pros making money by selling services around free software.
Free and non commercial are not the same thing.
Using Netkas' EFI hack is the only way to get OS X running the vanilla kernel on Intel hardware.
That's the software they're selling and they have no right to do so.
That would have to be proven in court. It is pretty hard to prove "selling code" vs. "paying someone for their time to install free code because the customer isn't savvy enough to do it themselves".
I'm not a lawyer, but I am a code contributor to several open source projects. I haven't seen the licenses in question, but I know I wouldn't bother to attack a company that was selling machines with my code on it. If I wanted to restrict people from using my code, I wouldn't be contributing to open source projects in the first place...I'd use a license key or a dongle like everyone else. "Restrict" and "open" don't really go together, do they?
that's my question as well... at no point do they offer to sell you someone else's code. From what I see, they are not even charging for their service. So from what I can tell, it's no different than asking a friend to install it for you.
I'm always amused when people that release free software get offended when someone or some company uses it in a way they don't agree with. If you don't want people to use it then don't release the source. It would be interesting to know what license (if any) Netkas' source code was originally released under.
Given that he had to re-release under a non-commercial license this suggests that the original license does allow Psystar to do what they claim to be doing. I'd really like to know what the original license was, my guess is some version of the BSD license (since the new license is similar to the BSD license). If so they could do pretty much anything they want with it, including sell it. They wouldn't even have to tell anyone they're using it aside from some mention of it in the computer's documentation.
If you don't want people to use your code in ways that you don't agree with then don't release the damn source code. And if you do you'd better be sure that the license you release it under only allows people to use it in ways in which you agree with. Otherwise just STFU and let people use it how they want.
Sons of the internet: Go forth and destroy any possibility of Psystar's success.
As someone who has benefited from the hard work of those working on OSx86, I wouldn't appreciate someone being the cause of shutting this great project down.
Sorry this is of topic... but your avatar rules!!
I love the cheat!
According to our friends over at GIZ this company doesnt even exist! Im so glad yall really looked into this I was planning on ordering a system from them. Looks like I'll just start digging though the hardware compatability lists again :(
in Soviet Russia, Psystar steal YOU
In Soviet Russia, sentence YOU senses no.
You didn't get the memo, there is NO more Soviet Russia.
see... (well if you didnt read my comments in the last psytar post, this makes no sense)
I think no hackintosh builder likes all of the extra attention this stuff is getting. Now that it's been on front pages for the last couple of days it's making too many people in high places think of legality and rights... when until now this was mostly just a hobby type computer made to "look" like a Mac.
Once Psystar makes a business of it everyone is gonna close up. Apple will somehow find a way to screw all hackintoshes, X86 doesn't like them making a buck off of free project, and other companies helping x86 with drivers will either charge for their services or stop it altogether.
Too much attention to this just can't be good.
I think they should have advertised this thing as running CherryOS. Vaporware emulator with a vaporware box. Makes sense to me!
I'm curious. Where does it say they are selling OSx86 software? How could Apple take issue with them, as they are only selling a retail version of Leopard that you could buy yourself from Apple? I'm just trying to educate myself here.
The company does exist it is registered with the State of Florida. Check it out http://www.sunbiz.org/scripts/cordet.exe?action=DETFIL&inq_doc_number=P07000077580&inq_came_from=NAMFWD&cor_web_names_seq_number=0000&names_name_ind=N&names_cor_number=&names_name_seq=&names_name_ind=&names_comp_name=PSYSTAR&names_filing_type=
Crap the link doesn't work. Go to www.sunbiz.org and then click on document searches, then click corporations then enter PSYSTAR CORPORATION in there.
Something tells me Psystar did not consider anything at all when promoting there coputers with hackintoshes.
maybe they intend to kill the open.computer business and push whatever else they offer? smoke and mirrors, all press is good press...
That's pretty bad when even a semi-illegal group starts getting pissed about copyright infringement-esque stuff.
I don't get any of this. Is it "illegal" for Apple to tie their own operating system to their own hardware? If not, then why are people complaining so much about Apple's business practice.
Someone should read those the comments on Netka$'s blog post, apparently Psystar may not be the only one on "questionable" ethical grounds, quite frankly. I'd think that if someone contributed to something I did, and didn't give them credit, and then complained when some "uplifted" that something, I wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on "morally" anyway.
Not to mention that Psystar has apparently ( within a day....that was quick thinking ) posted a link acknowledging Psystar uses open source software, and mentions Mr. NetKa$ by name.
Also, to those nambi pambi people who question where Psystar is located/started, I remind them that companies like ALIENWARE, were started in a double garage ( I know the then-founder, he was head of tech support for a company I used to work for ). And Apple themselves...where do YOU think they built the first one ? People like to piss and moan about small companies with big aspirations, but the reality is more big companies started that way, than didn't.
Disclaimer: I do NOT have ANY affiliation with Psystar. So before you start a'hatin', put a sock in it.
I just ordered one since my Madison Celebrity hasn't shipped yet.
It looks like the less reputable folks at Gizmodo are doing a better
job on actually reporting this then anyone at Engadget.
http://gizmodo.com/380488/psystar-exposed-looks-like-a-hoax
Can anyone say Apple sting operation or false flag ops?
TheStupidOne: Maybe you should follow up your own follow up....it seems to me with all this digging, Giz has dug themselves in deep....in the dung.
They can't even get the RIGHT address...and..the fact is that even the company in the building where the address is, even says that it's a different BAY and a different COMPANY. Posting pictures of people's houses is a REALLY SWIFT move too, as we all might remember from some bonehead posting someone's address on craigslist not too long ago, where the person at that address getting hurt ( I believe that's what happened, but I could be wrong, they could've just been robbed ).
So yeah, the giz folks really have this story under wraps. right.......because there've never been companies that began in miami, from someone's garage, sold a load of systems, before being bought out by a mega-entity. Oh snap ! That's right, then there's Alienware...natch.
Get real people...just another cloner...move along. Let the open sourcers whine it out. We'll all come out better for it. Funny thing in all of this is the Russian developer complaining someone taking his intellectual property for commercial use ( when he himself apparently is being accussed of not granting attribution to other contributors to "his" work). Dude..no one installs software for free. Hello !? It's called popping in a boot disk, and then popping in the original Leopard disk....DUH ! Can you kalyway...hello ?!?
The key difference is Alienware as well as Steve Jobs and Wozniak actually built documented the trials of their product before going public with it.
And who does this so called business better serve than Apple who can put them on trial for illegally selling their software and even if ends as a settlement it will still set a precedent that ensures it is illegal for anyone to install OSX outside of Apple certified hardware?
Excuse me ? What twisted history did you pull that from ? Wozniak may have shared some of his plans with some of his friends, but there was no such thing as a "documented trials before going public" of anything. Sure, they must've blown a few breadboards, before showing it off to some of his homebrew buddies, but nothing like what people tout today before believing in a product.
And as for Alienware....careful...I can still walk up to Alienware PC Serial # 000003 and boot it to this day ( It's in my sisters and her husband's bedroom ). Built by the founders own hands ( and partially rebuilt by my own, Damn Voodoo2 SLI cards ). I know from whence that came, and you don't know what you're talking about there, my friend.
And as for who it best serves that Psystar be out there.....see my comment at the Guardian for that answer.
Just the same, what Psystar did was perceptionally incorrect. They handled the introduction of their "service" to install Leopard on a PC for you, completely botching it in the process. What they're doing is NO different, than any knowledgeable corner shop PC guy could do for you with any one of the readily available CD's out there for "assisting" in installing Leopard on a PC. Now, is that illegal, Apple I'm sure thinks so. Yet the curiously quiet tone from them is rather telling....from their point of view, every blog mention, every story post, every comment is marketing moolah they DIDN'T have to spend. They get buzz.....for free.
Of COURSE they're going to let this play itself out. They're not paying to be on the front pages of engadget, giz, or any of the others...hell...they didn't have to do anything, and they're getting press....
Like that guy who interviews actors says on the Geico commercial.....brilliant !
marcelol-You seem to be taking this strangely personal for not being affiliated with Pystar or their employees in anyway?
As for proven documention or that something physically exists, the movie Pirates of Silicon valley claimed a local newspaper did an article on one of their prototypes. But it is just the same coming from any run of the mill person who happened to stumble upon the Apple II at a Homebrew Computer Club back in 1976. As Steve Wozniak likes to so candately talk about:
http://www.lankanewspapers.com/news/2007/9/19078_space.html
and
http://apple2history.org/history/ah02.html
What I am trying to say is that how Pystar introduced themselves with no reference to a working model until they gave credit to those involved in OSx86 is not "perceptionally incorrect" it is a catastrophic blunder from a standpoint of gaining trust to buy a product. It also seems like they don't understand the concept behind supply and demand if Pystar thinks they can assemble thousands of orders from a house.
Apple and your apparent friends who started Alienware probably had lofty dreams but at least they knew what had to be accomplished within their means before claiming THEY CAN outright fufill them.
But if this entity is only around to gather publicity its.. "Brilliant!" And thats from a certain Guinness commercial btw.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WqO0Q_zNKA
If they didn't want everyone to want them dead, they could have just sent the Lepard install disk with the system and gave the person instructions to install it themselves, that way they don't have any legal responsibilities for not running OS X on a mac.
actually, for the rather clumsy, hands-off manner they're going about it (it seems like the readers are doing most of the work), Gizmodo is actually digging deeper on this than Engadget is. The company has provided three or four addresses in the span of one day, the business records for the brothers involved seem dubious at best... I don't know if these people are frauds but if you're willing to put your money into their scheme, I've got a nice infinite energy machine I'll sell you real cheap.
I see your infinite energy machine, and raise you my instant-momentum-creator
you've got an instant momentum creator!? could I use it to instantly create... hype?
I am live close to where the company is located. I am going to check it out and see if they are selling the clone.
So will Psystar also try to clone the iPhone?
I read a post the other day about the iPhone not really being a phone anyways.
http://www.technologystory.com/2008/04/10/will-apples-iphone-maintain-momentum/
Their site itself is incomplete, ie, the store is just thrown together etc. At best they are just scamming for personal info. At worse, they are taking actual money from people. They are idiots in the fact that they managed to make something so high profile like this. In the end they are going to go to jail.
Jim, I am English, here on business in Tokyo. Living near Shinagawa. If you are in Tokyo, so long as you are not under 18, how about meeting up for a beer and talking crap one day. Genuine invitation.
A little bored,
Adrian.
lecoyte@hotmail.com
Okay, Shyster, I mean Psystar, is taking software from someone who is, technically, illegally hacking OS X to run in an unauthorized manner. Yet, that someone being "ripped off" is upset?
Oh boo hoo! Somehow I can't dredge up much sympathy for the victim. Not to mention the hypocrisy of that someone claiming to make open software, but closing to some they don't approve of.
As for Apple's silence, maybe their lawyers are having as much trouble as all the bloggers in attempting to track down a legitimate mailing address?
It's kind of funny listening to the "offended by Psystar" crowd, as they pump out the kudos and support for Netkas, and whine about Psy's criminal enterprise...
One sort of wonders since when is making an EFI/ OSX crack, crack ,cracker jack - an admirable and ethical pusuit ?
Either both entities are ok, or neither one is.
Methinks the whining and complaining kettles are so pot black the sun can't shine through to their kernels.
Here, how about some perspective and insight into the swarthy thought processes.
" OMG ! Oh NOOOOoooooo! - I've been 'secrectly' cracking the credo out of my PC-Mapple you know what with a free scronge from Netkas, and of course I'm a pure bean counter with a heart of gold and pockets of dust. If this screws up my free maccing, I'm going to be so pissed !!! Why can't I get paid for what I'm doing ??? I hate capitalism...unless I steal OSit - err-- uhh - borrow umm-- well it's a protest against closed software..!!!"
YEAH - whatever .... Dilbert is as Dilbert does - and your splashing Dildirt upon yourselves.