Usually product teardowns are only interesting for the raw, visceral thrill of seeing chipsets and circuit boards splayed wide open, but iFixit's disassembly of the
new iPod touch revealed something rather more interesting: a Broadcom BCM4325 Bluetooth 2.1+EDR chip. (That's the silver rectangle in the middle of the top circuit board there.) That's got a lot of people all atwitter, but there's an obvious explanation for it:
Nike+, built into the new touch, is based on a proprietary low-power 2.4GHz communications protocol
called ANT -- not quite the standard Bluetooth frequency, but awful close. Yep, sorry, it's for technojogging, not secret A2DP -- although we'd welcome actual Bluetooth support in the touch with open arms. Hit the read link for the complete breakdown.
Update: Just to be totally accurate, the BCM4325 also does WiFi -- and Nike+iPod has been called a "
proprietary 802.11 protocol" in the past, so it's even less likely that it's there for actual Bluetooth usage.
posted Sep 10th 2008 10:01PM
thats so interesting......
Stop making the Ryans look bad.
Bluetooth on my touch, that will FTW
s/will/would/
Since it's not gonna happen.
Oh, and will for the win?
That doesn't make sense either way, so I suppose will is just as good as would.
why couldn't they have just fucking used bluetooth?
They really should have. Both from a usability standpoint and a financial standpoint.
"$9.99 for bluetooth? How can i go wrong?"
Bluetooth means little to me, without a decent stack. I have a 1st-gen iPhone, and I'd like to have GPS integration. But I can't, because there's no support for a Bluetooth serial port which could hook up to my nice Bluetooth GPS receiver.
I'd also like to be able to transfer files wirelessly to other devices, but that isn't happening either. Screw copy-and-paste, a good Bluetooth stack is what I really want.
So is it a proper bluetooth chip or not? If the software just doesn't use it for bluetooth it doesn't mean it can't be done, right?
That's a shame.
Bluetooth chip - Nike + JailBreak = WIN
I would have rather taken Bluetooth instead of Nike+iPod
if it had Bluetooth it'd be useless like the Iphone's Bluetooth. I'm still pissed at how useless the Iphone's Bluetooth is.
"an Broadcom"
? "A broadcom" is already correct by American standards...
r u a woman
Why would they shoot themselves in the foot like this? Now that everyone knows they could have put fully functioning bluetooth in it, everyone's going to be pissed. I know I would have loved bluetooth for VoIP, file transfer, hell you could even make it a touch screen computer remote if you knew what you were doing. WHY APPLE WHY! Why cripple yourself when you could've been so COOL!????
Because bluetooth would make it compatible with loads of non-ipod accessories. Which, in turn, would mean Steve Jobs could not afford that solid gold toilet seat he's had his eye on.
"had his eye on."
"Had his ass on."
Corrected.
"has his ass on."
Second correction.
Yeah, Everyone will be pissed, and they will only sell 130 million of them
Yeah your right because the first one didn't have bluetooth and nobody bought it, so this one not having bluetooth is really going to hold it back.
Just because we want it doesn't mean all those people out there that don't give a crap aren't still going to buy it. Educate all your non-tech friends to the benefits of it and then people will start clamoring for it.
"Had his eye on."
"had his ass on."
"Had his brown eye on."
Corrected.
"hell you could even make it a touch screen computer remote if you knew what you were doing."
Can't you already do that? With an app? A free one? ...and if you want a touchscreen remote that controls more than just itunes, is it really the absence of bluetooth that's prohibiting that from happening?
Maybe you were kidding?
Probably the same reason the crippled the iPhone. It too could have had fully functionong Bluetooth for (everything), but got left with just a bluetooth chip. Oh, and it has HSP, where this has Nike. It's not like it surprises anyone.
The 4325 also does WiFi (so sez the internets).
It can do WiFi and Bluetooth simultaneously, so that means probably if Apple wanted to they could do Bluetooth on the Touch if they wanted, even if it is right now doing WiFi and Nike.
Which means they could turn it on later and call it a "feature update", and get $5-10 more out of everyone who wants it bad enough.
Congrats. You failed in both (so far has no low rank, and so far is second comment :) )
The bluetooth part is probably a $9.99 upgrade...
WOW...Apple sure know how to work their customers! How many times must I say this? Rather then just makin' one GREAT PMP (Portable Media Player), they rather make baby steps with minimum upgrades to make millions along the way! We all know this, we just don't want to admit that Apple has us trained. Go ahead and low rank me you haters! I'll be dang if I spend another penny on an Apple product when I have a perfectly workin' 'ol model iPod/iPhone. I'm through with Apple and their greedy ways...
If you don't like it with the specs it is offered with, don't buy it.
If you paid for it with the specs offered, don't bitch it doesn't have something you weren't told it had anyway.
I agree 100%
Your right bro, that's why I'm not trippin'. All I'm askin' for is that Apple stop cheatin' people when they buy a product one week then the week there's an even better version of the same product for less or with better features. When I hear rumors over the internet I try and ask an Apple employee but they play dumb. That and they wanna put out newer models and stop supportin' older generations. Anyways, have fun wastin' your hard earned cash tryin' to keep up with the latest (GREATEST) Apple product...
Apple probably isn't keen on adding bluetooth to the touch. Paired with a cell phone there's no reason why it couldn't handle text and voice. Not good for the iPhone.
Lets not give him what he wants. Everybody rank him up.
Apparently it can do FM receiver wifi and bt.
H@ck h@ck!!
Not only did they screw up with the bluetooth, but the now "included in 2.1" Nike+ is not even included with 2.1, just with iPod touch version 2. Apple always finds a way to screw things up. Again, a perfect opportunity to improve not only a future product, but the use of an older product by including Nike+ support since that is what Jobs said, but greedy apple leaves the people who have already supported the touch in the dust by not including Nike+ support. Thanks for nothing apple.
Then again, first gen Touch might not support Nike+
All you guys would pop you zippers if you just read the stinkin datasheet for the 4325! It does all that 802.11 stuff and more... From what I can tell, it is not ANT unless Broadcom licensed it from Dynastream Innovations and is a software implimentation. Ant is not on the datasheet.
So, I think if the OS allows (in the future), it will be able to do WiFi, Bluetooth - simultaniously, ZigBee, SDIO, SPI, UART, eSCO (for voice), dual A2DP stereo sound.
RWB is correct. This NOT ANT. This a The standard they are using is very close to ANT(the radio transmission protocols are similar) but the message protocols are different. ANT has over 50 partners but Nike and Apple have of course decided to use a different protocol. Is anyone surprised?
http://www.thisisant.com/?section=94
that sucks...
that sucks...
Cool... it works with ANT?
So does Garmin's Forerunner, Edge, Oregon, and Colorado! (Including heart rate monitors, power meters, accelerometers, and bike speed/cadence sensors.
I wonder if they'll all work together, considering they work with the same wireless standard.
Jeez, Apple is stupid. Everytime I use my Sony NWZ-A728 I wish I had purchased the A828 with bluetooth. I'm sick of wires when I walk to and from work. But no bluetooth on the Touch, stupidity IMO. Imagine how convenient it would be to pair up a Bluetooth headset with the Touch and do VOIP. Would be pretty badass.
Is it compatible with other ANT products like Suunto and Garmin?
I think the question now is can the iPhone be updated so that the Nike+ thing can work with it and not have the little white dongle on it? Since they have the same hardware (from what I have heard) it would seem like it would be possible.
Or is that what he really wants? Damn you reverse physcology
did anybody else notice the numbers at the bottom of the article are different? im wondering if that was a typo or if it meant that a completely different bluetooth receiver is also wifi. however that doesnt apply.
So if a bluetooth reciever can handle ANT will the iPhone work as a nike+ reciever? I sure hope so..
FCC Documents reveal this is infact a bluetooth radio... Along with the chipset spec, its reasonable to assume with a simple software mod could enable full out bluetooth.
*cough* Its already running linux *cough*
*cough* No, it's not! *cough*
Linux != BSD ~= OSX
If it was Linux, it'd be open source, and you'd have a chance. (Well, probably not you, but hackers.) Coming from BSD source, OSX can be as open or as closed as Apple likes, and that's rather closed for the versions on the iJunk.
its not running linux, mac OS is based on UNIX at its core as is linux but they are as i would say 2 completely different evolutionary branches, definitely nowhere even close to being considered the Same OS.
So, if I read correctly, this Nike+ crap is only good for getting info from sensors in special pairs of shoes?
Wow. That is so useful. I'd much rather have that than lose the wire to my headphones. Thanks again apple.
Also, still no mpeg support. It looks like I'll be buying something else when I get tired of the 5th gen video.
could it perhap be modded for ipod touch - to - ipod touch communication? since they both have the same chip???
Dear Engadget,
Can we do away with your new comment coloring scheme? Invisible Grey for low ranks and ultra bold black for high rank is really hurting my eyes. Anyways we can make out which comments are low / high ranked by just glancing at the top right corner.
Thanks.
PS: While you are at it, can we have persistent logins?
Come on Engadget! Did you actually even look at this horrible new color scheme before uploading it???
OK if you really want to make the "low ranking" hurt more and hopefully drive off some of the tools that have infiltrated Engadget lately?.. Then just have the "low Ranks" collapse. That way they're not in view by default, the tools don't get the negative attention and if i was curious i could just expand there post...
P.S. - Your welcome!!
AOL has made their fortune encouraging tools- why would they stop now?
I just looked at two large (international) shopsites and neither of them has ANY BT dongle that does v2.1, it's all 2.0, what the hell?
The part number ifixit list doesnt match up with the ones on the broadcom data sheet, so maybe it is a custom part
with 802.11/a/b/g and ANT?
King Job would like to banish the BT users, requiring subjects to conform to Ipod standards.
I have a portable digital music player with a wireless chip.
What should my wireless chip do?
Connect to my headphones?
No, I'm going to make it connect to my shoes.
You're fkn right. How can Apple people be so stupid not to add A2DP????
Somebody please hack that shit to start transmitting to my headphones, now it's just a matter of software. If Leopard can this piece of shit must ....
Hello,
Well... Its reasonable to assume you could write to the flash of the broadcom chipset. Assuming you know what you're doing you could send the instructions directly to the CPU and it would know how to handle things...
Wish all the hackers good luck, with their hacking.
-Kevin
There are some serious researchers out here... Yes, the BCM4325 is there not just for the sake of Nike+ but for the sake of future proof... If the software developers support it there will be A2DP and a lot more. Not failing to address that, because the PCB have been designed with the BCM4325 in mind, there's also space for a future hardware revision if needed that will be a lot cheaper then designing the entire board... chips with similar functions have similar interfaces for the sake of continuity... If the BCM doesn't do the job, it can always be replaced with something else in the assembly line...
I just read the specs of the RF chips for the Nike+ and the receiver. It's not ANT, since it's not an ANT compliance chipset. (Either way, ANT isn't Bluetooth or 802.11). It's not Bluetooth, and it's not 802.11 anything. The only common factors it has with either, really, is that it operates on 2.4GHz.
No, the radio protocol it uses is a pretty straightforward protocol, that's proprietary to the Nordic Semi nRF24xx series. On the radio side, it appears to be a simple raw serial bit stream at 1MHz. This isn't going to be anything the BCM4325 can pick apart.
I suspect that the tiiiiny little chip to the right of the BCM module, seen in the face-up shot with the LCD removed, is the nRF2401A which is the Nike+ receiver chip. It can piggyback the same antennae that the BCM chip use.
As far as Bluetooth in the iPod Touch, it may be something that they add in software later. The chipset's already in place, and no physical changes are necessary. I'm not sure that Steve & co are happy with the idea of A2DP, because it requires the use of lossy audio compression to fit to stereo audio channels into the Bluetooth data channel. So that means lossy compression of an audio stream that's been previously compressed with another algorithm... which means reduced audio quality.
As for the other functions of the BCM4325... please also note that it's got an FM receiver and supports 802.11a (5Ghz WiFi) too. But those require additional hardware to support.
i was really looking forward to that bluetooth f@$& the nike shit i want the bluetooth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A chip is a chip.
http://www.broadcom.com/products/Bluetooth/Bluetooth-RF-Silicon-and-Software-Solutions/BCM4325
http://embedded-system.net/single-chip-wifi-bluetooth-and-fm-receiver-bcm4325-broadcom.html
Was just on the broadcom website...
Thank you for your interest in the Broadcom Bluetooth SDK. You have been sent an email with a confirmation link.
Lets check it out. :) Anyone care to help?
@Plaid : where's that spec pls?
Tnx,
wim
...unite
ok found it. Product brief however, so not much. But chip can do Bleutooth, that's for sure.
Question remains if the UART I2C I2S/PCM SPROM lines are connected in the ipod thouch.
BTW Anyone a link for a "product extensive" on that 4325?
http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/4325-PB00-R.pdf