Microsoft's
Robbie Bach feigned an uninterested yawn at
Apple's 6.9 million iPhones figure in an interview with
BusinessWeek the other day. He wasn't particularly insulting of the product, but didn't think the number means too much in the long run. "Apple had a big launch of a new product, and they launched at scale in a lot of new countries with a lot of new [wireless] operators. This quarter, RIM is having its big launch, and at some point we'll have our big launch. We'll have to see where things normalize." While that statement is encouraging for the fact that it semi-implies that
Windows Mobile 7 is supposed to be released at "some point," we're not sure we're picking up what Robbie is putting down -- 6.9 million of a single device seems to imply a bit more than "launch buzz." Things devolved quickly when Bach started spouting about how carriers want a balanced ecosystem. That may be true, but consumers are the ones that buy the phones, and if their RAZR buying habits are any indication, "ecosystem" isn't their top priority.
[Via
Electronista]
posted October 24th 2008 9:08AM
Jealous much?
Just a bit.
I don't see jealously.
I mean, is there anything he said there that wasn't true, or particularly insulting?
Maybe for Apple fans he wasn't laudatory enough in their minds, but compared to the rude, arrogant stuff that comes from Steve Jobs, this is a nothing story, here for no other reason than to start a flame war.
Actually, in a sense, he is correct, and Apple would be the first to agree with him. The fact is that Apple and Microsoft have a symbiotic relationship. Apple's (per Jobs') philosophy is to be the elite, the cream of the crop, the avant-garde, and of course, with a price to match. For that to be possible, you need to have a baseline for Apple to be superior to. Microsoft supplies that baseline--the klunky, clumsy, oafish competitor who tends to the unwashed multitude with "good enough" utility and low prices. To put it succinctly, Apple's well-being depends on a Microsoft, just as Microsoft's aspiration (to emulate) depends on an Apple. Apple will never overtake Microsoft in market share, because that would mean the end of Apple's superiority. You cannot be superior when you are in the majority.
The equilibrium has served well enough when the computing universe has only APL and MSFT. Now that mobile computing is getting more interest, Google with its Android will make things more interesting.
Jealous on the scale of Hillary Clinton.
@d00b
That's the saddest thing I've read.
You've put too much thought and wasted too much time thinking of that and writing that.
Microsoft aspires to be like Apple? The elite cream-of-the-crop Apple supporters? Let's not turn this into an iPhone/Apple circle jerk please.
His exact quote also includes, "Don’t get me wrong, the iPhone is a cool device. But it’s not about choice.” ...so, no. Microsoft is not jealous.
If you take the quotes in context, he's saying that the iPhone fits a specific market and you'd have to look at the broader picture to see where it fits. For example, is it replacing business devices like Blackberries and Windows Mobile devices or are consumers just upgrading from their old regular cell phones. He's saying that it will take a while to get the full picture because it's too early to say. ...in business, a trend isn't always a long-term sustainable outlook (think stock market and oil prices dropping by half over a month's time).
Has Engadget ever heard of a company called Nokia? It's N95 handset has sold 10++ million units. Unfortunately that model doesn't have a logo of a fruit in it.
@ huihai,
err...it's 6.9M in just months.
yeah u read it right. 6.9M of iPhone 3G alone.
Ah, you missed my point. I know that iPhone has sold 13 million units in total after its release last year. Just saying that this specific last years model from Nokia has sold more than the iPhone. This is not a competition between the models or firms, since Apple is a great niche producer while Nokia has gone for the mass market and controls 39% of the whole market.
Just saying that I haven't heard any praise for N95 sales figures from engadget, in fact, I haven't heard anything constructive regarding Nokia. Yep, maybe I shouldn't except fair treatment for all.
Ecosystem my left nut.
At the store I work at, I'm the go-to tech head and I get a lot of our customers asking me a bunch of random things. "Can I replace this hard drive?" or "What do you think of this phone?" are the common ones. In respect to phones... people - as in the person that is actually going to buy the phone, and pay the contract, and use the service, and run up overages, and sell non-vital organs to pay grossly ridiculous bills - generally couldn't give less of a shit about ecosystem. The large majority of them are of the mindset "It's the iPhone!" and the other portion are of the mindset "I'm a businessperson, I MUST HAVE A BLACKBERRY!" There isn't a care in the world about software ecosystem because the man on the street doesn't know jack shit about software.
The iPhone looks pretty. The Blackberry has push email. Let's face it people, there are cliques that must be conformed to - ecosystem be damned.
The iPhone has push mail too. Just so you know.
I know.
But that if that is what you are focused on, then you missed the point.
I wasn't trying to disparage the iPhone at all, I was simply stating the common person's thoughts when buying an iPhone. The person that is buying an iPhone, more often then not, doesn't care about Push email - they care about having the iPhone, for whatever that may mean. Similarly, the person buying the Blackberry generally cares about being able to have an essential on-the-road, at-my-fingertips office. I'm not saying that the iPhone cannot function in that Blackberry place or vice-versa, and I suppose you can say I'm stereotyping, but it holds true.
The point I was trying to make is this: Neither the iPhone user or the Blackberry user cares about ecosystem. iPhone users have the app store, but the average person would survive without it (think: someone that doesn't read engadget)... we're the minority: the group that knows about jailbreaking and closed-source. The man-on-the-street sees a status symbol. A similar concept applies to the Blackberry.
Actually no, iPhone does not have push email. It was released as an update with much fanfare only to be retracted by Apple because it didn't work. To my knowledge it still does not work properly. I ended up turning it off because I figure why waste resources on something that doesn't work.
Apple retracted push for Mac OS mobileme only. It's still push on the iPhone and it works well.
So it works with Exchange? That's a plus.
I couldn't agree more.
Very good point. I think Microsoft has a big problem in the way it's approaching things. No one cares about a balanced ecosystem, no one even knows what the hell that means! All most people know is the iPhone is the thing to have now, and it isn't because it's a great phone. Apple is winning here because they've successfully marketed their products as fashion accessories and have established a kind of massive niche. Microsoft also neglects the nostalgia factor. Well to do people who have been in the tech sector for a long time have gone through a lot with Apple and still just "don't feel right" about using another product when there's an Apple one to buy.
My message to Microsoft is: Stop being a fricken' Vulcan. Logic and consumer purchase preference have nothing to do with each other.
That's a fair assessment, Valicore.
iPhone doesn't have to be a great phone, just decent enough on a decent enough network. It has a nice PMP with a nice screen and good storage size. And it's highly pocketable. But Apple would never have sold as many as they did if it totally sucked. It does most things fine and some things well, plus it has the high cool factor. People want to touch it. It certainly isn't perfect or even close.
Look, Microsoft controls the desktop market. Nothing is going to change that anytime soon. But if Microsoft wants to cultivate a cool image they have a long way to go. So far they're clueless and Ballmer, king of uncool isn't helping one bit. Sure, the Zune looks like an awesome player and can do wonders for MS's cool factor but their ad campaign sucks. They could take a few pointers from Apple on how to market their image. Jobs is a master at it.
I guess that Engadget missed the memo.. Microsoft Reports Record First-Quarter Revenue..and can bash./say whatever the fuck they want with a market cap (202B) bigger that Apple (87B) and Google's (110B) combine!
So I assume Engadget is going to embargo this until 10:00PM EST, like they have done everytime Microsoft reports earnings?
Ah Ike and fred, Engadget's lovable resident Microsoft PR duo. Buck up campers - Microsoft may not get any media or customer love, but you always have market share to add a rainbow to your rainy day!
And remember what Lord Ballmer said: iPhone will never get any significant market share. So relax!
maybe you didn't get the memo... MS growth in profit year over year.. 2%... apple's 29%... apple exceeded the streets expections... MS didn't..
10 years ago apple was in a bad way and Michael Dell's advice to Jobs to just close up shop and give money back to investors... today Apple is 3x the market cap of Dell and has enough cash on hand to literally buy Dell outright and have change left over (25B and Dell is worth 23B).. how does that crow taste Mr. Dell?
apple has larger market cap than IBM, Intel and is approaching cisco and google and is almost half of MS... that's quite something for a company that was being told to just close it's doors and give up 10 years ago...
bottom line is that MS is plateauing and apple is growing in leaps and bound... need to look at trends, momentum... don't be like Michael Dell... unless you really like the taste of crow... now we know for that MS can only succeed when it's abusing it monopoly.. take that away and it's just another company... and is likely going down since they don't really know how to innovate.
Microsoft operates in way more markets than Apple. Besides, do you even know what market cap is?
- Higher market cap doesn't mean better products
- Market cap is very volatile
- Growth and profit are what count. Google's is still one of the hottest stock options around, and Apple have grown enormously over the past few years. They're on an upwards path. Microsoft is paying $300M in advertising just to keep its business as it is.
If you want to deny that Apple is successful, look at the facts:
- Mac market share growing
- Safari market share growing
- WebKit wildly successful. Engine of choice on mobile devices and for Google's own browser (how long before they stop dropping cash to fund Mozilla?)
- iPod #1 PMP for nearly a decade, by a huge margin
- Number 3 mobile phone maker, despite only being in the market for 2 years and having 1 phone on 1 carrier
- Soon to have a fully 64-bit OSX with a transparent switch for consumers that begun years ago (have you tried Windows x64 lately?)
- Fastest growing retail chain of any kind, worldwide
- $1M a day in App Store sales. Copied by all mobile platforms, despite being ridiculed early on.
- $20Bn cash in the bank. Saving for one massive binge.
Yes, you're right. Apple is clearly doing everything wrong. I'm not an Apple fanboy, but anybody with even half a brain knows that they're successful. They're nigh-unstoppable right now.
@KarlW
So in essence discount everything MS does so you can keep up the line that ONLY Apple does well. Cute.
@doctorspoc
Actually MS did exceed Wall Street's expectations - revenues of $15.1bn, ahead of the $14.8bn expected by analysts, with earnings per share of 48 cents, in line or ahead of estimates of 47-48 cents.
As for iPhone sales, anyone who thinks 6.9 million 3G sales in two and a half months isn't impressive is an idiot, however anyone who thinks that sales rate will continue is also an idiot. The iPhone 3G - impressive product that it is - is but one product which, because of it's high subsidy rate (did anyone else have a giggle at AT%T's figures and just how much they had to take it up the arse from Steve and Co to have sole rights to the iPhone?), will have a pretty fixed lifecycle point of 18 months or so. Apple will ramp up sales again when they release in their remaining markets but once that's done it's done.
But it's kind of true.
Do you think Apple can sustain these kind of figures? Sooner or later everyone who fell for the hype and marketing will have one.
I seem to recall that's the same thing people said about the iPod. The first couple of years of million unit sales were a fluke. It was a passing fad. Sooner or later there won't be any more market because it'll be saturated.
It's 2008. 7 years after the first iPod, and they're at 70% market share still.
It couldn't possibly be that there's some substance to a device like the iPod or the iPhone that attract people to it.
That's what I'm thinking too - what he said was the simple truth. Yes, it was a successful start, but on a global scale, 6.9 million handsets are still not *that* breathtaking, and similar numbers have been achieved by other companies as well, multiple times, with similarly expensive devices.
I don't quite get why half the internet blogged about that statement today, usually with headlines as silly as the one Engadget chose?
Yes, but the mp3 market is much easier to cater to. A device with a slick UI that can play music? That's what *everyone* wants. The phone market is a lot more diverse, different people want different thing.
Do you really believe it is hype? One thing that MS forgets to realize is that there are still some people on 2 year contracts with other carriers just waiting to switch without paying a fee. I picked one up the day after my Verizon contract expired last week and could not be happier with it.
You forget that the MP3 market was but a fledgling market at the time of the iPod, so to gain a strong foothold early-on ensured growth. But phones have been around a long time, and though I give props to Apple for making a great interface, they entered an already intensely competitive market. Google has answered with a more open OS, WinMo7 could have some good features (I haven't seen them, so I won't comment) and now the competition is even fiercer. I do think iPhone sales will continue to grow, but they will not dominate the market like the iPod, especially with the G1 out now and the slew of Android and WinMo phones that are to come.
As for Microsoft, if they can get their new OS into a phone that is sleek, it will sell. That's all there is to it, really.
"Sooner or later everyone who fell for the hype and marketing will have one."
Everyone who fell for the hype and marketing of Windows sooner or later had one. How did that turn out, business-wise?
Engadget was the same place that bashed the SPINN for not having an ecosystem.
Good luck being coherent, guys.
Different ecosystems.
Bach is talking about how it's in the carriers best interest to have a balance of powers among handset manufacturers (an "ecosystem"), so that carriers like AT&T can keep them in their place and load crappy software on them, charge for GPS and disable important hardware features. Apple upsets that balance.
What the SPINN lacks in ecosystem is software / content partnerships to make the device viable for viewing legal content.
Microsoft should be ashamed of their efforts in that space. Pocket PC is a joke. It's really an embarrassment. iPhone's software is ten years ahead of PocketPC.
I could care less about Apple, I'm not a fan of the Apple Tax, but seriously, is Pocket PC the best that the behemoth Microsoft could come up with?
I guess we need to wait for version 7 of both their windows platforms...seems like good thing are coming.
Well more WinMo phones are beeing sold than iPhones worldwide..so MS couldn't care less about what a bunch of apple fanboys can say. BTW where's my MMS, copy/paste, fully functional GPS, tethering, etccc ?? Oh mighty Steviiee Joobbs
Pocket PC wasn't designed to work an an entertainment device in you pocket. They are PDAs meant for less recreational things that so happen that people put more entertainment centered software on it. Apple obviously made their phone for more than that. Whatever.
Windows Mobile 7 will see if Pocket PCs are going to keep in that direction or do something new.
I don't care about Apple or Microsoft. I don't own either platform. I have a company assigned Blackberry. I've dabbled with all three platforms due to my job. And I'm just pointing out how terribly behind the times Microsoft is with respect to their mobile platforms. I hope 7 changes everything. It just amazes me, the worlds biggest software company is so far behind.
"Ike Turner @ Oct 24th 2008 9:32AM
Well more WinMo phones are beeing sold than iPhones worldwide..so MS couldn't care less about what a bunch of apple fanboys can say."
You're right about WinMo sales I'm sure, but I don't believe for one minute that Microsoft doesn't care about what Apple fanboys say. They've as much as indicated that they do many, many times.
1. Just because Apple can make a cute interface doesn't make it light years ahead of anything. Microsoft has admitted that they concentrated on functions of the OS and not so much on using those functions. I have the M2D on my HTC TyTN II (much like the new HTC 3D interface on there new phones) and it is much more usable then the iPhones; though once you get past the interface admittedly, it is still WM6. I played with the iPhone and used a trial of an iPhone skin, and if you have a lot of applications you have screen after screen of icons only in some kind of self organization. Where is on the HTC interface you slide to what the main function you want, apps. weather, internet, and then go from there. I think it is much more streamlined. If the leaked photos of WM7 are true, they are going to have a similar system, but navigation through and through will be finger friendly and more user friendly.
2. Because MS spent most of its time figuring out what people need in a business phone / mobile organizer, WM 6 is light years ahead of the iPhone. Most of the faults people find in the iPhone are functions you have in most other smart phones for years. The fact that my crappy Toshiba WM PDA could *gasp* cut and paste eight years ago just makes the fact that the iPhone can’t that much more ridiculous. No my good friend, iPhone put a prety face and a nice browser on a device and forgot a heap of functions that have been around for years. Microsoft has it easy, they have the functionality, now all they need to do is streamline that bad boy.
3. Its the applications that make WM my choice (and used to be Palm). Drinking beer from my phone is cool and all, but the plethora of software available for my phone puts the iPhone app. store to shame. Sure there is one place to go for the iPhone apps. that is conveniently accessed. One, locked down, over controlled, innovation stomping place to get your iPhone lighter.
4. I do think this is the future, and I am stoked. Microsoft will work with HTC and others to bring there surface technology to a phone size and then all your capacitive and resistive touchy feely screens will be old news. The fact that MS has this technology alredy puts them in a good lead to be first to bring this to a phone. Finger friendly? Yes. Styless friendly? Yes. Multi touch you ask? Yes. I wont go on to what you could do with an optical touch screen on a phone, but just give it a try yourself, it is awesome.
FRED- seriously. Are you not listening to Balmer, are not reading the marketing. My first Ipaq played media and attempted to replicate all I could do on my desktop in a mobile environment. It was/is widely touted as a comprehensive platform. You are in a parallel dimension called denial.
What, too long?
i still prefer winmo but xcrunk's right. it's pretty sad that they're on v6 and this is the state of the os. they should be way more advanced than they are. but it's just like the browser. now that apple and google are in the game, ms needs to wake up.
@ ANDRIOD
the problem is that regardless of how many and how more functions a phone may have if people can't use them easily and the way they want to they are essentially useless.
apple did it the other way around.. realized the actual human being need to use these things and are the one that are paying for them so make the platform incredible easy and usable and add feature later... MS painted themselves into a corner.. they made a UI that is hard to use... you can't just transform a desktop GUI into one for handheld... that's just stupid and make people pull out a stylus to do everything... business users might put up with this but the wider consumer market will not...
MS's problem is that they went full bore for the business market not realizing that the wider consumer market is MUCH larger and much more lucrative.. but you have to make a UI that they can and will deal with and make it fun and easy to use
functions, smunction... you have to get the GUI and the platform right before you start concentrating on adding every function under the sun
@doctorSpoc
No arguments there. I was trying to get across that MS did fail with the interface, and I put off using WM for years, until I realized that Palm was just not going to give me anything new except colors.
My point is that they both fail.
MS was relaxed because they didnt see any real threat until the iPhone; but if Microsoft delivers on what I have read on what is to come with WM7, then Apple, RIM, and Google amongst others wont have the excuse of, well we dont sync with this, we cant cut and paste, etc, but at least we look and feel cooler than Windows Mobile.
Sorry
Typical Microsoft, they are being ignorant. If they were smart they would be putting software on it, make an office program for it or something instead of ignoring it and making stupid comments like that.
Look at the nice little logo on the left http://www.apple.com/iphone/ Microsoft Exchange!
MS is already making money on each iPhone sold...