Amazon suspends Kindle account after too many product returns
By Joseph L. Flatley 
posted Apr 16th 2009 4:11PM
posted Apr 16th 2009 4:11PM
The Kindle should be a pretty straight forward proposition, but this just goes to show you how sometimes folks can stir up controversy even with something as innocuous as an e-book reader. First there was the hassle with the Writers Guild over text-to-speech, and then Amazon threatened MobileRead with legal action for merely linking to software they didn't take kindly too. And now we're hearing alarming tales of Kindle owners who have had their accounts turned off when inadvertently running afoul of company policy. Case in point, a user on the MobileRead forums reports being locked out of his account for what was termed an "extraordinary" rate of returns (that is, he returned electronics that arrived damaged or defective). Because of this, our man was unable to purchase new books for his device, or even check out magazine / newspaper / blog subscriptions he had already paid for. Luckily, this gentleman was able to plead his case and get his account reactivated -- but other users haven't been quite so fortunate. We'll be keeping an eye on you, Amazon -- so let's try and play nice for now on.
[Via Channel Web]
[Via Channel Web]
Nothing like taking a perfectly good device and crippling it with horrible legal loopholes that only hurt the consumer. Yay! I'll definitely buy one now!
P.S. His kindle wasn't bricked/useless, just his Subscription content and Archived material stored in his amazon account. Guess what, Any subscription service ends if you get your account banned. This is not news. As far as paid for Archived information, sounds like Amazon probably overlooked such a thing, and needs to impliment a fix so they don't withhold content that is actually paid for when a user gets themselves banned.
Shorter complaint: "I want my service to continue even though I cannot pay for it anymore."
Why is Engadget this late with posting like these? This was doing it's round in the net last week.
Did people forget about used book stores and libraries?
I tried carrying a library around with me...but...um...it proved to be too heavy. The kindle offers the convenience of getting new material instantly.
that kind of thinking shows you dont understand the revolution that is the internet
What are those?
@ azidea - considering I work on the Interwebs, daily, it shows your ignorance that there is plenty of knowledge right down at your corner library and bookstore, that is if you not too lazy to get off your butt and actually 'walk' there to find it.
I wasn't implying anything against a kindle since I see a guy here at work reading daily on his lunch but there are just some books full of valuable information, that you can't get electronically, yet.
Yes, my library card was blocked several years ago due to my low rate of returns... :-P
sounds like the time my account was suspended on giz. i wasnt amused either.
You should never trust Amazon:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/09/06/amazon_makes_regular_customers_pay/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/11/06/amazon_rips_off_regular_customers/
That was 8.5 years ago.
"....People don't forget"
Dude, I heard of this store that was offering 5$ off to NEW CUSTOMERS ONLY! W.t.f.?
Also, to add to the "8 years ago" comment, taken from that article: "This will only work if you have a dial-up account"
This is why I still prefer to buy books, magazines, CDs, DVDs, etc. - because they're MINE. This is another example of how wrong-headed the DMCA is and why we've been fighting to get obvious ownership rights back.
I'd pitch that Kindle through the CEO's window if it were me in this situation.
What are you talking about? When you buy computer software and other items that can be copied you can't just return them to the store and thinks its all good, and yet Amazon allows users to return e-books, but within reason, what is wrong with that? People thought they found an easy way to get free content on their Kindles and now that Amazon has called them out on it its a big deal? Give me a break.
@Neil... again: try reading the read-link, smartass. The guy never returned a single e-book. He returned a tv and a dslr and some other stuff he bought from amazon cause it was defective.
@Mark
Name calling, really?
Of course, it's the only way to fit in at engadget
@Neil: My point, which I though was obvious, is that when I buy a book or CD or DVD and bring them home I don't go to the shelf a week later and find them arbitrarily "removed" by some faceless goon because I had too many returns of unrelated items. With totally subjective recourse, if any. And since when did returning stuff become actionable?
And FWIW, you SHOULD be able to return software if it's crap. Nothing should get a pass from consumer rights laws, including software. But that will never change, because if you bought a copy of Windows Vista, hated it and returned it, Microsoft might have to make better software. Like every other company out there.
If folks want to read books for free go to a library or book store. There's plenty of other avenues if you decide you don't like Amazon's policy (which isn't that bad to begin with - get the free sample or buy it and shut up).
wtf are you talking about? Where does it say anything about reading books for free? The guy returned some random stuff(tv, DSLR, etc) that was broken when he got it and they banned him from amazon and kindle. Seriously, slap yourself in the face.
Agreed, too many people want content but don't feel like they should pay for it. The Samples are there so try that out first and if you like it buy the book....if not don't.
@Neil: GAH!!! What the hell are you people talking about? Why are you posting about getting stuff for free when that has nothing to do with this article.
@Mark: I think Eric and Neil may both have a case Internetus Ignoramus - looking at the heading or first line of the aricle and then posting opinions based on that. They both have valid points, but don't seem to have read the article *sigh*
Your comment isn't even worthy of a response other than to say that "You are a total idiot!"
It's not so much this guys fault as it is Engadget's fault for not being clear. Electronic books are still electronics. Who wants to read through the read link (which is a message board) to find the guy's 2nd post where he states that he didn't return books but in fact returned electronics. Even the people who responded to his post at first thought he was returning books.
Even i thought he had been buying books and reading them then returning them (until i went to the message boards).
@Mark
It's ok, I feel your pain.. :)
Eric and Mark are morons.
you meant neil, not mark
and now you Ian
... and this is why you do not buy into DRMd services...
What an amazingly poorly done story, engadget.
The 'story' comes off a forum from an anonymous source.
It is about being banned from buying anything from amazon, which also effected the guys kindle account.
He had not returned any kindle books according to his own claims if I remember.
You headlines and pitch paint a completely different story altogether.
poor show.
To be fair, the guy himself admits his returns rate looks dodgy.
"Yes, I simply received a string of defective items. Hard to accept? OK, I'll grant that, but it IS the truth."
When the guy himself admits that kind of thing it's not really surprising that some bean counter at Amazon jumps all over it and labels him a chancer.
Right, but shouldn't they control for defective items? It makes sense to say that about things that the guy just decided to return but they should check it out and make sure it's defective and, if so, not count it against him. Also, some kind of warning or something before an outright ban from everything would also be in order.
True, and I'm not saying Amazon are spotless in this. All I'm saying is that when the guy himself admits it's a bit suspect you can't blame the company for wondering what's going on. They should have given him a warning yes, and if they don't check whether or not returns items are a actually defective they bloody well should.
The guy admits repeatedly asking for replacements and then refund on expensive items like TVs and DSLRs. You can't blame Amazon for flagging him.
But yes, they should have warned him if they thought he was taking advantage of their systems.
He didn't get ban hammer for returning books people
Just seeing that now, the article really needed to be clear about that.....as this does go beyond just the Kindle.
@Neil
I think it's clear enough, if you read it. I read it, and understood it was electronics and not data that was returned.
Most of the other commentator also understood. So far it's mainly you and Eric that assumed the guy had been returning e-books.
Joseph L. Flatley: Please put somewhere in your article that the items he returned were NOT e-books and were returned because they were defective.
how many returns are acceptable ?
If there were defects/flaws... why was he returning and not just exchanging them?
This story is just a forum post so far, so I'm not gonna draw any conclusions just yet.
I agree wholeheartedly.
If the product is defective you exchange it.
If the product is flawed, but still functioning, one would assume you still want a product. You then cough up any restocking fees, get a store credit, and buy something else!
If your product is defective/flawed and the customer service sucks, you demand a full refund and never come back. You don't go ahead and buy more expensive items from them.
People just need to RTFA before commenting.
That kindle looks like an iphone.
guess i wont be returning my eee pc :\
I dont get it why Soul on Ice (Ive read that book btw)
Note to self.
Don't buy anything from Amazon again.
Where did you get that preposterous hypothesis? Did Steve tell you that, perchance?
My rhymes and records they don't get play because my records and rhymes they don't get made...
It doesn't matter if he stole a car from Amazon.
They shouldn't have the right to confiscate stuff he already owns. Just as Best Buy can't repossess the TV I bought 5 years ago if subsequently I miss a loan payment on a stereo. The state is allowed confiscate property (after a trial, etc), but not other entities, unless they go through legal channels. It doesn't matter if he killed Bezos's grandmother, Amazon can't just take his stuff. Unless, of course, the stuff isn't really his -- which this makes clear it isn't. I think the Kindle will do to books what the iPod did to music: every day, a few hundred more will figure out how to get ebooks without DRM...
What the hell are you talking about? They didn't take anything away from him, they closed his account. Your Kindle is linked to your Amazon account. No Amazon account? No Kindle Store. He can still read anything he's already purchased since those are stored on the Kindle itself.
If you own a Kindle, don't close your Amazon account and don't do anything to get it closed like try to scam Amazon with tons of bogus returns. If the returns were legit, contact customer service and plead your case. That's what this guy did, and they re-opened his account.
@schtum: I think that's his point. The legal side of these things needs to be cleared up and fast because in this day and age services ARE products. It's really amazon's own fault that this happens too since they lock it down so hard that there's no other way to use it except with a kindle account.
@schtum
Perhaps a better analogy would be that, if you pester Microsoft with Vista complaints too often, they could turn off your ability to save new MS Word documents. "Hey, no problem: you can still read all your old docs! What are you complaining about?"
If you're really worried about this happening to you, the thing to do would be to open up a separate account just for your Kindle. You might need a different email address to open a new account, but each Kindle has its own email address so that's easy enough. It's a small pain in the ass, but it should keep your Kindle working if your regular account is shut down for any reason.
I'm not actually worried, I was just trying to understand the principle. If I were actually worried, I'd just use Stanza on my iPhone to read ebooks that I torrented for free.
Actually, you can store a thousand books on the Kindle itself, but you can also archive items which are then stored under your account on Amazon. If your account is closed you lose access to those archived items.
Believe you me if you ever worked in a store you come to know that weirdos exist (and the thought that some of you nutters will read this gives me the shivers!). I wouldn't be surprise if this guy ordered the stuff only to have a play around and then return it. I have seen much much worse.
Man, am I glad I read this site's feed.
I was this close to buying one.
This is why smart people buy a Sony Reader or some other comparable e-ink reader if they're in the market. Believe it or not the Sony is the most un-locked down unit out there.
Er. . . The Kindle can do everything the Sony PRS505 can do, plus it has free wireless syncing, a web browser, and a direct G3 connection to the Kindle book store. The Sony can't read e-books purchased from Amazon, who-- by the way-- is the largest book retailer in the world at this point. The Sony eBook store is clunky, requires a computer running Windows, and proprietary software.
(And yes, the Kindle can view any format you can view on the Sony (aside from Sony DRM'd files), as long as you either use Calibre, Amazon's service, or Savory to convert. Once converted, PDF files refresh and format faster on the Kindle than they do in native format on the Sony.)
Zerocorpse,
But, if you read the original article, the Sony Reader isn't going to shut you down where you can't buy books or magazines and ask you to beg for forgiveness in order to reactivate your account.
IMO hardcover novels, books, etc. have their own charm! An electronic gadget won't take their place in my home. :)
I can buy a novel, read it and resell it on eBay, donate it to a Goodwill store or simply keep it...
FYI: It was the Authors Guild (books), not the Writers Guild (screenwriters), that had issues with the text-to-speech feature.
I love my Kindle (and my Sony Reader) but this policy of Amazon's needs to be changed pronto. The DRM issue, in general, needs to move forward (as in to extinction) instead of the current constant ranting nonsense that changes nothing.
This fellow should have at least been able to back up his books onto his computer and read them there. I'm talking legally here. No one should have to worry about prosecution over books that they've paid for.
(Yeah, I know - more ranting nonsense...)
You know, Amazon, you only recently started turning a profit. Maybe you ought to think twice about treating your customers like crap (especially the gay ones), because it won't take much more of this disrespect before you slip back to "fifty shares for a penny" status.
AMAZON Sucks! I have been ripped off one to many times from buying and
selling on that site. You have been warned!
I used to work at amazon, and while far from a perfect company I can tell you they don't shut down accounts randomly or for small infractions. I'm not familiar enough with the way the Kindle works to know what he lost when they turned off his account, but I can say that in my experience, it took quite a bit of abuse just to raise a customer up to the level of scrutiny, much less actually having their account shut down. Obviously I'm not sure what this guys specific circumstances are, but I'm inclined to give amazon the benefit of the doubt on this one because, at least when I worked there, shutting down accounts what not something that was done lightly.
We in the Kindle community have known about this for a while now. This guy has pestered the Amazon forums and other communities with his tale of woe, and from what anyone can figure out he has a pretty substantial record of buying expensive electronics, opening them, using them for a couple days, and then returning them as "defective" or "unsatisfactory." He admits as much in at least one review.
Well, here's a news flash: ANY retailer will cut you off if you cost them more than they make off of you. If he's buying widescreen HDTVs, computers, and other electronics and returning them opened because he *believes* they're defective or not up to his standards, then he's costing Amazon the ability to re-sell these items as new. They lose out, as do the sellers who fulfill orders through Amazon. Eventually, if the amount he returns balances against the amount he keeps, he's going to get kicked to the curb.
More than a few of us think he's full of sh!t when he says he "only returned defective items". I've been ordering from Amazon for many years now, and I've only had to return one item. Amazon has great customer service if you don't abuse their return policies.
He should have thought of his Kindle account before he abused Amazon's return policy. It has been mentioned by those close to this situation that he WAS warned, and continued to return opened items at an alarming rate. That's HIS screw-up, not Amazon's.
Guys like that drive prices up for the rest of us. To hell with him.