loot-system
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The Daily Grind: What's the best loot system in an MMO?
Massively commenters recently reminded me that one of the things that bug me about retro themeparks is the loot that drops in dungeons and raids -- or to be more specific, the lack thereof. You want me to pile how many people into a multi-hour raid and reward only one or two of them with a boss drop? Why we're so happy to bash lockboxes that abuse our money but not RNG lotteries that abuse our time stymies me. I'd love to see more games like City of Heroes that reward everyone with his or her own drops for making it through to the end of a mission -- no roll window required, no DKP necessary, no ninja-looters possible. You do a thing and you get a thing, not just a dim chance at a thing. What do you guys think is the best loot-drop system in an MMO, past or present? Every morning, the Massively bloggers probe the minds of their readers with deep, thought-provoking questions about that most serious of topics: massively online gaming. We crave your opinions, so grab your caffeinated beverage of choice and chime in on today's Daily Grind!
Why would a top guild not use loot council?
A blog post over at World of Matticus caught my eye earlier this week. It's called Why a World Top 10 Guild Doesn't use Loot Council and tells a short story of how our own Matt Low was surprised to find out that a top guild didn't use loot council. While interviewing a potential recruit for his guild Conquest, the applicant explained that his guild used DKP for loot distribution because loot council had proven too time consuming. Matt goes on to conclude that if you're racing for a world first, you probably wouldn't want to waste your time distributing loot of all things. A fair point, seeing as top guilds often get kills within hours of each other. I myself have never been in a world top 10 guild, but having been in several competitive US guilds I've seen my fair share of loot council and DKP. Regardless of the system my guild was using, we were always expected to make (and sometimes post) a list of our best-in-slot gear before the start of a tier. For DKP, this was to reduce the amount of surprises in bidding and help us all get an idea of who needed what before we snagged an upgrade. For the more common loot council, this let the council put together a master list to decide who should get what first. But which one was more efficient?
Drama Mamas: Loot rules rule
Drama Mamas Lisa Poisso and Robin Torres are experienced gamers and real-life mamas -- and just as we don't want our precious babies to be the ones kicking and wailing on the floor of the checkout lane next to the candy, neither do we want you to become known as That Guy on your realm. We are still compiling our results edition, so if your letter was answered and you'd like to tell us what happened, please send an email to robin@wowinsider.com. In the meantime, let's talk about loot rules. Dear Drama Mamas, A few months ago I joined a guild so I could finally have some people to talk to (I tend to go alone for a long time until I see a guild that interests me) and to have the chance to raid. As I play a healer I was immediately accepted in the raid team and, although we're not even done with normal progress in the Mogu'shan Vaults, we've done relatively well. Some of the people in the guild are pretty nice and I like to be around and play with them, but there is one problem little that's been bothering me for a few weeks now: loot drama. Our loot rules are simple: if you can use it for main spec, roll for it. Everyone seems to love that system, except for me. I prefer systems like EPGP or something similar because, in my opinion, when you're raiding with your guild you should be rewarded for commitment and not just luck (that opinion might or might not have something to do with my terrible luck... >.>).
Is the new LFR loot system working for you?
I'm not, by and large, a huge fan of LFR. Most of this isn't really due to the raids themselves, but to the fact that as a DPS I generally feel like I have to wait an eternity for that queue to fill up, especially if I wait until the end of the week to run the thing. But I like seeing the fights, and I like beating things up. I like getting loot. Unfortunately, that last statement doesn't really happen very often. I've gotten a bare handful of pieces out of LFR, but most of the time my reward is simply gold, and the valor I get at the end of the run. That seems to be the case for most players -- after each boss kill is a litany of "Oh no, not gold again, I never get anything from here." But then I started thinking about it, and what exactly that new loot system has done for LFR raiding. Oddly enough, it's changed it in a significant manner.
The Azeroth Ethicist: Cheating (or not cheating) the roll system
I was healing a Well of Eternity PUG a few days ago when I got a whisper from the group's warrior tank. Warrior: Could you help me out with something? Me: Sure, what do you need? Warrior: If Varo'then's Brooch drops at the end, would you roll on it for me? Me: Um ... I'd been off in my own little world watching health bars and thinking about next week's Shifting Perspectives column and hadn't paid any attention to the group's composition. It turns out the DPSers were a mage, a hunter, and -- oh, there we go -- a frost death knight. So in the event that the strength trinket dropped, the warrior tank wanted me to roll on it and, if I won, give it to him over the DK. He probably asked the mage and the priest to do the same thing, but the group was quiet in party chat, so I have no way of knowing. We had a small and, to his credit, civil conversation over it, and there are a few issues here on which I'd like to get readers' opinions.
Mists of Pandaria: Raid Finder loot system changes clarified
If, like me, you heard about the upcoming changes to the Raid Finder's loot system and were a little confused, then this post by Zarhym clarifying what exactly will be changing is a useful read. Basically, rather than rolling against people in the raid (as is the current system), you roll and the chance that you will or won't get loot will have nothing to do with other players at all. Zarhym -- The new LFR roll system First, other players will not affect your loot in any way. Another player winning will not cause you to lose. Another player winning a mace will not mean that she took your mace. If there are many rogues in the raid, your chance of winning a rogue item is not diminished. We may decide that each player has an X% chance to get loot, or we may decide that X number of players get loot, and then randomly determine who those lucky players are. Second, the item you win will be "useful" in the sense that it's potentially usable by your current spec. This does not mean that warriors will get leather because warriors can equip leather (at a huge stat loss). It also does not mean that the game will always give you an item you want or an upgrade for the items you have. It just looks and says "You are a Holy priest, so here is a random item chosen from the Holy priest-appropriate items that this boss can drop." source You'll still have a chance to not get the item you want and have to come back again, but at least this will curb that hideous sinking sensation of seeing Gurthalak drop and knowing yet again that someone else is going to get it instead of you, leading to hostility. Zarhym then goes on to explain the bonus roll system, which is a roll you can effectively trade in for a guarantee of some kind of reward, be it extra gold or a random drop from the boss. At present, this is all only for the Raid Finder, with a possibility of seeing the systems in dungeons if it works out. It's open warfare between Alliance and Horde in Mists of Pandaria, World of Warcraft's next expansion. Jump into five new levels with new talents and class mechanics, try the new monk class, and create a pandaren character to ally with either Horde or Alliance. Look for expansion basics in our Mists FAQ, or dig into our spring press event coverage for more details!
Breakfast Topic: Is DKP starting to become obsolete?
I was trundling through Wowpedia the other day for some background reading on loot systems (I'm writing a follow-up to Robert's not-so-original WoW miscellany) when I was struck by a sudden thought: I literally cannot remember the last time I saw a guild on my server advertising a DKP system or common variant like Suicide Kings. They advertise what level they are and what type of players they're looking for, the kind of raid content they do if they're raiders, if they do Rated Battlegrounds, and all that good stuff. But only very rarely is DKP ever mentioned, rarer still with a 10-man raiding guild. I trawled through the guild recruitment forums to see if this was actually part of a wider trend, but don't know what to think. The 25-man raiding guilds are the most likely to say they use a DKP system or variant; 10-man raiding guilds nearly all use loot councils, at least from my (admittedly brief) survey of the current advertisements. Is this also happening on your realms, or have I gotten this wrong? We all know that every DKP system has its issues and that administrating them is one of the larger headaches for guild leaders. 10-man raiding is also more popular than 25-man raiding right now, and it probably doesn't make sense for a guild to obsessively track DKP for a 10-man where most players probably aren't rolling on the same stuff. Is DKP dying, or is it just a sign of the popularity of the 10-man model?
Looking for raid, or looking for trade?
My interactions with the Raid Finder have been limited, for the most part. I'm in a raiding guild, and we were told when the Raid Finder came out that we would do guild runs to start out with. This was to make sure that all drops benefited everyone in the guild, and honestly, it was a smart idea. Players got their set bonuses with relative speed, and we completed the encounters with no difficulty at all just due to the fact that they were relatively easy in comparison to the normal-mode raiding we were doing. However, after we began melting more gear than we were keeping and started working on heroics in earnest, our raid leader let us know that if we really needed anything else from the Raid Finder, we'd have to go run it on our own. So it was with a fair amount of confidence that I queued up for Dragon Soul, looking for a trinket that was so far eluding my rogue in normal mode content. No big deal, right? Easy enough, and by now plenty of people ought to be familiar with the content. Well ... not so much.
Addon Spotlight: Distribute right with LootCouncil Lite
Each week, WoW Insider brings you a fresh look at reader-submitted UIs as well as Addon Spotlight, which focuses on the backbone of the WoW gameplay experience: the user interface. Everything from bags to bars, buttons to DPS meters and beyond -- your addons folder will never be the same. This week, loot without the numbers and randomness. One of the areas of addons that I haven't touched on in this column with any real depth is loot addons. It's not because loot addons are not important or necessary but because my past experience with loot addons were never impressive or positive. The first guild that I was a part of that actually used an addon based loot system put their stock in EPGP, a loot system based on effort and gear points. To me, EPGP was a convoluted mess at times; the addon would bug out, and it all just left a nasty taste in my mouth. Plus, I had come from a guild loot culture developed around the famous "don't be a jerk" system, in which people would make judgment calls based on who really needed items over others. This worked 90% of the time. I've steered away from loot addons because of my poor experience with EPGP, much as I originally strayed away from an Addon Spotlight on Tidy Plates because of my bad experience with that addon. Granted, that wasn't Tidy Plate's fault in the least, but my own addon configuration problems. Suffice to say, I'm giving loot addons another shot, mostly because the guild I am currently raiding with uses LootCouncil Lite -- and I've fallen in love.
Nonstandard loot systems in WoW
No matter what the reason that you play World of Warcraft, there is one singular topic that all players must come across at one point or another: loot. Whether it be in dungeons, raids or PvP, loot is going to drop. When it comes to the end-game PvE side of things, you are more than likely going to run into various loot systems. There are really only four basic types of loot systems out there: DKP, loot council, open rolls or GDKP; the reality is that virtually every loot system created does fall into one of those four categories. Players are probably familiar with more traditional DKP loot systems or modified variants thereof, while loot council and open roll systems pretty much speak for themselves. GDKP is a somewhat newer phenomenon that's been sweeping the PUG scene these days. But really, I don't want to talk about those systems. The debate over which of these is the best option has been done to death. Instead, I'd like to introduce three off-the-wall loot systems that I've seen in my day that I've personally found to be highly interesting. Are they "better" than others out there? Who can say? It's all a matter of opinion, really, but -- I think, at least -- they are worth taking a look at.
We Have a Tabard: The green-eyed monster
Congratulations! You've bested the bosses in 25-man Naxx and Kel'Thuzad is dead. You have one last trial to deal with: distributing loot. He drops Cape of the Unworthy Wizard, Betrayer of Humanity, Crown of the Lost Protector, and Crown of the Lost Vanquisher- and everybody wants a piece. There's something "Lord of the Flies"-esque about the way that Blizzard drops loot and then allows players to decide who gets it. DKP, Loot Council, Biggest Upgrade, Two Token, simple rolls. Every system is flawed. Someone is going to walk away unhappy. For GMs/RLs I give you this advice: be fair, be consistent, and brace yourselves. Odds are good, someone is going to be unhappy and you're going to have to deal with it.But this column isn't for GMs/RLs. Jealousy, the green eyed monster is one of the worst adversaries in WoW. Guilds have fallen apart over loot decisions and overall loot practices. In most cases leadership tries to be fair- with an eye on progression. A good GM doesn't play favorites when it comes to loot. With good leadership, you can count on decisions that strengthen the team as a whole.
Why loot drama happens (and how to prevent it)
I like this post over at I am a Paladin -- it's a pretty insightful look at why drama is so easy to come by in bigger guilds. Blizzard has done almost everything they can to divide loot fairly (and they're still working on it, with the addition of more token systems), and there are certainly plenty of systems out there to try and keep things as fair as possible. Still, as long as there are only a few rewards to split among 25 people in a raid, there will always be loot drama -- as IaaP says, when people aren't rewarded for their hard work (or at least they perceive that), then frustrations start to set in. And gone unchecked, that can lead to jealousy or resentment, which leads to anger, and that all leads to the kind of spectacular guild breakups you can read about in Guildwatch.So how can you avoid all that? If the main reason people start causing drama is that they don't feel rewarded, then you've got to find a way to reward them. That might mean going with a more fair loot system (I've been in a few guilds that have switched to DKP at the first hint of drama), it might mean changing up the way you run things (by switching groups around or switching roles in a raid), or it might mean stepping back down into an easier raid to better gear up some of your members. As long as Blizzard requires more members than loot in a raid, there will always be imbalances, but hopefully most drama issues can be avoided if everyone realizes that though any given piece of loot might get passed out unfairly, there'll always be enough to go around.
The ins and outs of the Shroud Loot System
Both Blessing of Kings and Unbearably HoT have posts up talking about the Shroud Loot System, a looting system designed to serve as an alternative to the standard DKP setups. The main point of SLS is that unlike DKP, it rewards points not just for downing content, but for just attending content, so that the focus is more on attendance and participation rather than progress (which, you'd assume, would eventually come if people are constantly showing up). Instead of kills, points are awarded at the beginning and the end of raids (no matter how much progress is made), and then when an item drops, players can bid points either by "Shrouding," spending half of their DKP (whoever spends the most gets the item), or by bidding a low fixed cost (and then they roll off for the item, with whoever wins paying the low fixed cost). BoK has a great example of how it works: either you spend half your points (if you have the most overall DKP, you're guaranteed to win) or you take your chances against a dice roll.
