What I'm getting at is that threat should not be frustrating to hold, and the inability to tank large packs of mobs should not be because we just don't have the threat for it. Rather, the inability to tank large packs of mobs should come from the inability to survive large packs of mobs in the first place.
Yeah, we'd basically agree with that. The risk should be that the tank will die, not that the tank can't hold aggro. However I have to caveat that because otherwise any time anyone ever fails to hold aggro for whatever reason they'll blame it on their tools instead of taking some responsibility for hitting the right button or gearing correctly. Threat still needs to matter as a mechanic
And without launching into class warfare again, we think the paladin is a little too good in the AE department so we'd rather bring them down than bring everyone else up. You also need to compare tanks at the Naxx level, not the Icecrown level for purposes of threat.
Put succinctly, imagine all 4 tanks tank groups about as well as a warrior tanked groups in Naxx, but that the mobs hit harder and AE damage was a little lower such that you wanted to CC and single target more of the pulls (but not every pull -- there is still a place for Blizzarding them all down). That's the goal.
My comment seemed to have confused a lot of people. The point was that we know we have a scaling problem where dps specs increase their dps by more than tanks increase their dps. Warrior AE tanking felt on target in Naxx but started slipping behind as the mages and rogues were improving their gear. I was trying to share our goal, which was that AE tanking should feel (at all levels, unless you're overgearing stuff) the way AE tanking in Naxx felt, with two exceptions: 1) AE damage is lower for the dps specs, 2) Sometimes those mobs in those packs hit harder such that just rounding them all up can be dangerous for the tank.
--And i am sick and tired of being the goddamn scapegoat class, I can name 3 classes right now that have been running around facerolling their way to 2200s in arenas since season 6, but the paladin is doing a little better on TRASH PULLS and the discussion of nerfs start coming up? Leave us the hell alone already, God. Damn. It.
"Don't nerf me bro."
You guys are welcome to post what you want (within limits), but I'm not personally interested in having another discussion in this thread about whether paladins are overpowered or repressed by the man.
My point was to share how we think AE tanking should feel (relatively easy to maintain threat but still asking the tank to actually stay awake and push buttons) and where the risks should be (the tank dies / the AE spamming becomes inefficient). We like the warrior model. They push more than one button. More generation is active than passive. They do still have to consider threat as a mechanic. That's more of what we're going for (again, the way it felt in earlier raid tiers. The threat has slipped behind as damage fell behind in later tiers). Druids by contrast can just spam Swipe, which gets boring. Paladins get too much benefit out of HoR + SoC (at the very least) such that they risk pulling off of other tanks but have relatively little chance of ever losing aggro to dps. The chance to lose threat can be relatively low, but it can't be absolutely trivial or we might as well let you spam Commanding Shout.