Microsoft and Intel break down why they went with HD DVD
posted Sep 28th 2005 6:10PM
We know official backing by Microsoft and Intel won't necessarily make or break the coming next-gen optical disc standards war, but they definitely made some waves this week when both companies shed their supposed format neutrality (even though it was an open secret that Microsoft was siding with Toshiba) and announced they were going to support HD DVD. It's still a little beyond us why two companies like MS and Intel would bother taking a side; neither will be directly involved in manufacturing or marketing next-gen optical-based consumer electronics. For instance, it's not like MS is going to rescind their VC1 license to Blu-ray, or Intel will refuse to sell embedded processors to third-party Blu-ray device manufacturers based on this decision. Nor does it mean they can't also sit on both standards groups, like other companies such as Canon do. Ultimately you could say we're not sure why they would even feel it necessary to plant their flags in the ground, but Tom's has a good run of the official reasoning the two tech giants exercized (however dubiously) in making their big decision.
Well I officially back one of the standards. I am available for interviews.
/sarcasm
So... if I read that right... they want the one thats most functional now and least likely to expand in the future... AND they want it piratable? I never thought I'd say this, but lets hope that the movie industry (with its need for increasingly large discs and security) is the one that gets its way.
the argument "Support for hybrid discs" is ridiculous. HD-DVD use "flippers" as hybrid disks. i.e. DVD on one-side and HD-DVD on the other (kinda like the old DVDs that had "widescreen" & "fullscreen").
JVC, has developed a Blu-ray disk that is a true hybrid, having a DL-DVD9 and a Blu-ray on one side.
http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/186/4
However, while MS/Intel are big names it seems irrelevant being that they don't actually have any products to market (and XB360 won't have HD-DVD standard; not even an option at this point, maybe a $500 system to fit above their "core" and "Premium" bundles)
Only other impact that the deal seems to have is Media Center PCs, which sales don't seem to be too hot on. Windows support can easily be cured w/drivers. Seems to be more a PR-deal. Ultimetely it will be the Studios that decide the winner, and the Studio will at the end pick the format the consumer is buying.
Microsoft and Intel care about managed copy. Within the AACS licensing agreement every movie must allow a full resolution copy of the movie to be made to a device (most likely a media center PC, but not necessarly). The studios are free to charge a price for the copy (or not) but they must allow it to happen. The user of course doesn't need to make the copy at full resoultion. They can compress it to save disk space if they wish.
The device the user makes the copy to must protect the content with a DRM scheme that is apporved by the AACS (AACS is comprised of Sony, MS, Disney, IBM, Intel, WB, Panasonic). Note that copy feature doesn't impact your use of the disc in any way. It only allows you the option to make a soft copy of the disc onto a hard drive.
HD-DVD uses AACS and has agreed to these terms. So, all HD-DVD movies will allow the user to copy the movie to their hard drive (provided DRM will then protect the movie to the terms of the AACS).
Now, Blu-Ray also uses AACS and must also allow copies to be made. However the Blu-Ray group will not commit to allowing these copies. In theory they must comply to the terms of the AACS, but they can use their additional security (BD+) to thwart the usefulness of the copy.
It is in MS's and Intels best interest to not have any additional restrictions on the copied movies. This would allow MS to stream the copies to an xbox 360 for example and it allows for additional options for Intels announced Viiv platform.
This is just one of the reasons MS and Intel have choosen HD-DVD. It is mentioned in the article but so far this feature has not really been explained.
You guys think it has anything to do with ps3 vs. xbox360? With microsoft that is.
Microsoft just wants to stick it to Sony.
#4 Aegis, you say that media center PC's sales are not so hot, but you can see for yourself that media center sales are very hot:
http://www.redherring.com/Article.aspx?a=13369&hed=Media+Center+PC+Shipments+Up
"With regard to demonstrated capacity, he told us, HD DVD-ROM actually leads BD-ROM by a score of 30 GByte to 25 GByte. "
WTF, if HD dvd can actually store more than Bluray and it costs significantly less (+ china is apparently supporting it) i might be leaning more towards HDdvd now instead of bluray. dont see why anyone would want to go towards bluray with that cost+capacity in mind
plus it seems at the moment sony has a crazier DRM implementation (update firmware and stuff).
Microsoft supporting HD-DVD means that Vista will have support for it, and not blu-ray. DVD players were first adopted by PC users the fastest, so this is more important than people think.
Goodbye, Blu-Ray.
Goodbye, HD-DVD.
#4 Aegis, "and the Studio will at the end pick the format the consumer is buying."
I guess the studio wanted the consumers to buy divx (not the codec company) and the self-destructing dvds and look where it got them. Dead and gone.
Before I read the article, I thought they were just picking the standard 'most likely' to win and 'cheapest' without regard to how well it performed, but the whole package in HD-DVD is much better than BluRay. This surprised me. In particular, the XML-driven interface sounds like a great idea (why would you want to do clunky Java coding on a CE device?), and the gap in storage capacity compared to what has been announced was also shocking.
It's a shame, because I was really hoping the capacity of BluRay was real--I want to use it to replace my backup system.
All of this is pretty priliminary.... but I'm still leaning towards the Blu-ray side right now...
It just seems that it will have the advantage of being incorporated into the PS3. The PS2 was a large part of the reason DVD's gained support aswell.
And as for PC users being another reason that the DVD format gained acceptance... well.... Dell (the largest PC maker on Earth) is backing Blu-RAY and so is Apple (the audio/video enthusiast's computer of choice)
The only part of those tests I did not get was the "future friendly" test..... I mean seriously did they use a crystal ball to tell that HD-DVD will be more compatable with "FUTURE" formats? How would Microsoft and Intel know what is going to be compatable with future formats? After all, they have not been invented yet!
#14, KC,
How the hell can you say that PS2 was a large part of the reason DVD gained support? You attribute the success of DVD to Sony. You forget the adult industry, the other members of the DVD Forum (Toshiba, Mashushita, etc). If not for the acceptance of the DVD format by the adult industry, you (KC) would still be watching your pr0n on your beta tapes.
Though I don't like having to admit it, I don't think capacity is really all that big a deal in the market--most consumers are more than happily watching their current generation DVDs on their new LCD TVs and marvelling at how great they look (and admittedly, they do look a lot better when viewed this way despite the low resolution). And retooling is a pay-me-now or pay-me-later situation, so the cost will have to be eaten eventually as the need for capacity rises. I don't blame the industry for going for the cheaper of the two now to defer the inevitable as long as possible.
The big thing I think most people are missing in this decision is Blu Ray's requirement for Jave ME. Although technically far superior to iHD's declarative XML approach, this is undoubtably one of the major reasons Microsoft and Intel object to Blu Ray. It's got nothing to do with the supposed complexity of JME.
Microsoft objects to Java (and has since the beginning) because they see it challenging their entire platform. Intel objects because Java's platform neutrality makes the processor irrelevant. This is not a war over DVD players themselves; it's one battle in the war for the platform. Java already dominates the cellphone industry, much to their chagrin; the last thing Microsoft and Intel want is for all next-gen DVD players to include Java and to give Sun a huge licensing boost and even more credibility as a result. It's unfortunate.
#15, James--
When it was launched in Japan, Sony saw great PS2 sales but lackluster game sales. The conclusion was that the PS2 took off like gangbusters in Japan not because of the games, but because it included DVD playback. KC may be referring to this fact. So, in Japan, the PS2 was a significant force in pushing DVDs to the mass market (and I'd say it had a bit to do with popularizing DVDs in America also).
Now whether or not the DVDs the Japanese watched were pr0n or not is another discussion.
HDDVD sucks so bad. I don't care if they're cheaper. For me, the leap in capacity from DVD to HDDVD does not justify buying new hardware to support it. Bring on the 200GB Blu-ray discs!!
#17, evo
How many people actually use that PS2 to play DVD movies back when the PS2 launched? How about these days? I sure don't. I have a dedicated one or one in my numerous PCs or laptops to do that.
And just because it took off like gangbusters in Japan doesn't mean it was the major force in contributing to DVD's overall success in the worldwide market.
"and I'd say it had a bit to do with popularizing DVDs in America also"
And when the PS2 launched in 2000 in the U.S., the DVD has already been in the U.S. market for 4 years. According to the CEDIA sales number, the DVD players sold in 2000 was well over 8 million in the U.S. That's not counting DVDROM drives sold for use in computers. The momentum was already present. PS2 just capitalized on it. Having a PS2 that played DVD movies wasn't even a factor for me to buy one. It was the games.
"For me, the leap in capacity from DVD to HDDVD does not justify buying new hardware to support it. Bring on the 200GB Blu-ray discs!!"
I got news for you... The 200G disc is not coming to market ever. Either is the 100G disc. Those are vaporware. BR will launch with 25G and at some point latr release 50G. That will be it.
btw - HD-DVD has two types of hy-brid discs. The flipper (dvd on one side 30g hd-dvd on the other) and the single sided dvd/15g hd-dvd.
The more popular of the two is the flipper.
JVC has claimed they have a bluray hybrid but so far it is not proven to be manufacturable outside of a lab. This is what MS was refering to.
# 18
What are you smoking?
That's a long ways off. There still concepts, blu-ray is planning on a 4-layered 100gb & a 8-layered 200gb, but thats a decade away, and not even the people in the labs wearing the white suits can predict if its possible, or how many hudles they will have to jump before its commercialized.
HD-DVD's are 25 gb dual layered (15 single)...while Blu-Rays is 30 gb single layered. HD-DVD has made a 3 layered version which hold 45 gigs, but the same time they announced it Blu-Ray announced there triple layered version as well, blu-rays dual layered holds 50 gigs.
As far as capacity goes...Its Blu-Ray, However, in my view that isn't all that counts, I like to be able to rip and burn things, and microsoft likes that to, so i'm going with HD-DVD because its not so strict on piracy, and besides...30 gigs is over 3 times as much as current Dual-layer dvd's.....so thats cool with me.
We all know the reason why the Microsoft (X-box) went with the HDDVD is because their competitor Sony (PS3) help to develop Blue-Ray. Eveything else they say is B.S. It will be interesting to see where Nintendo is on this.
Best comments #10 & #11. That was the two funniest one I have seen in a long time.
What about the fact that Microsoft is full of S**T!?!
How about that?
Murc:
HD-DVD single 15GB
HD-DVD dual 30GB (duh, 15+15)
HD-DVD triple 45GB (only in lab)
Blu-Ray single 25GB
Blue-Ray dual 50GB (duh, 25+25) (only in lab, according to the article)
You're mixing up so many numbers there...
So the only demonstrated capacity is 30GB HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray 25GB.
So Microsoft/Intel went with HD-DVD simply because all things promised by the Blu-Ray camp are simply still ... promises. You can't work with promises. HD-DVD is ready, Blu-Ray is not.
If Sony launches the PS3 with Blu-ray movie playback support for $300-400, it's bye bye, HD DVD!
Actually Blu ray hasn't got it's 50gb version even in the lab yet, and wont have even in the lab for a long, long time to come, according to the article. That was one of the main reasons.
Read the article, people, and then come here taking sides just because your fanboy wet dream sony supports Blu-ray or what not.
Look, don't get too excited about the PS3 being a Blu-Ray DVD movie player. If the past performance of the PS2 as a DVD movie player means anything then playing Blu-Ray DUD movies (When ever they come out) in your bright en shiny new PS3 is gonna be the quickest way to brick it. That was the biggest killer of lasers in the PS2.
Remember, Sony is going to try and keep the cost of making PS3's down as much as possible as they will be taking a financial hit for every one made. And that equals the cheapest (Quality) parts they can afford to put into this thing.
Just because it can do a thing doesn’t mean it should.
Get a dedicated Blu-Ray player or a hybrid one when they come out. Save your future PS3 for playing games. It’ll last longer.
Galley, wrote:
"If Sony launches the PS3 with Blu-ray movie playback support for $300-400, it's bye bye, HD DVD!"
Hardly. The formula isn't that simple. Since when does a game player alone determine which next-gen optical drive becomes the new standard? Besides, there is the Xbox, too, (in case you forgot about that part) and it won't be shipping with Blu-Ray.
***********************
A, wrote in response:
"Goodbye, HD-DVD."
Doh! Good one!
Blu-ray can store a maximum of 25GB per layer with a theoretical maximum of eight layers. HD-DVD can store 15GB per layer and i believe can only hold 2 layers, the 45GB HD-DVDs are double sided which means you'll have to get up from the couch to turn them over!
Read the article. Excellent move by MS and Intel. BluRay isn't even close.
Consumers will eviscerate bluray. Even the name sucks: "blurry"
The Blu-ray fans are deluding themselves about its clear dominance. Technical superiority rarely wins in the consumer market. When it comes down to it, consumers are going to see two formats.....and one of those formats is going to say DVD. Consumers are almost always going to go for a new version of a current favorite even if it is technologically inferior. That is how the PS2 succeeded, afterall!
Please add the story about how these are false accusations.
The background article and a lot of these posts seem to be nothing more than spreading FUD. Let's look to the sources for Blu-ray, rather than to competitors and other organizations that may have an ax to grind.
"Actually Blu ray hasn't got it's 50gb version even in the lab yet." Then how do you explain this 100GB demo by TDK? True, it's a lab prototype, but they felt confident enough to demo it in public May 19th (4 x 25GB layers, single sided): http://www.tdk.com/tecpress/20050606_100gbluelaser.html.
Another "out of the lab" announcement on 10/5 — Panasonic will sell in Spring '06 drives and media for "single-sided, dual-layer 50 GB BDs": http://www.panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/official.data/data.dir/en051005-3/en051005-3.html. And, in the past, consumer recordable media have always come after RO media, so I doubt that there will be a problem for commercial distribution of movies on Blue-ray, even if they want to use the whole 50GB.
There are more details in this Blu-ray Assoc press release: http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/downloadablefile/050929-13066.pdf.
I have no affiliation with Blu-ray. Like the rest of you, I just want to see the format squabble ended. I still think Blu-ray is the superior technology.