GeForce 8800 GT upgrade causes headaches for some Mac Pro users

It looks like Mac Pro users wanting to get in on some of the latest and greatest action without ditching their old system altogether are still out of luck, despite a recently released "upgrade kit" from Apple that got some of their hopes up, and caused some consternation for anyone that actually took the plunge on one. As a number of users have reported on various discussion forums (one of which is linked below), the $349 GeForce 8800 GT upgrade kit only works in the newest Mac Pros, and not the older models, due to their lack of support for PCI-Express 2.0. That little detail was indicated as requirement by Apple, although many apparently assumed the cards would work because of the inherent backwards compatibility in PCIe 2.0. As you might expect, many users are none to pleased with Apple actions on the matter, with some claiming that the company's interested only in getting customers to buy a new system instead of prolonging the life of their old one. Shocking, we know.

[Thanks, John]

Update: Nvidia's Director of PR emailed us to let us know that the company is "in the middle of bringing out an upgrade kit based on the NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT solution for all Intel-based Mac Pros." What's more, this upgrade kit "should be out in a few weeks." So there you have it, folks. We'll see if they deliver as promised.

Update #2: Minor correction: it seems that Apple didn't indicate that PCIe 2.0 was a requirement from the start. That all-important detail was only added to the description on January 15th, or six days after the cards originally went on sale.

[LoganT @ Jan 18th 2008 12:05PM]

This is going to sound cliche but I'm a mac user but this is a little bit ridiculous. Isn't the whole point of people buying a Mac Pro (a very expensive investment) is that they can upgrade it down the road?

[Andrew @ Jan 18th 2008 12:11PM]

So Apple pointed out that it wouldn't work on older machines and
people ASSUMED it would work so they bought it anyway and now they
are upset?

WTF is wrong with you Engadget - report on news - dont spread FUD

Why would people assume that just because a card slot is backwards
compatible that a high end power hungry video card will work in that
old slot?

Yeah you can upgrade old machinnes but not mix and match components. If you want a video card for your old Mac Pro get a compatible card. If you want the latest and greatest well then backwards compatibility is going to get broken as brand new cutting edge components are added to new Macs.

[Joe Shmoe @ Jan 18th 2008 12:19PM]

The GeForce 8800 GT is the low end of the 8800 series (not "the latest and greatest")and this is intended to be an upgrade package. It's not unreasonable to expect an upgrade to play nice with older components, this is the entire purpose of such an upgrade product.

[Andrew @ Jan 18th 2008 12:38PM]

Joe - really?

latest and greatest refers to the card slot technology in the Mac Pro.

This is an upgrade package for machines with compatible card slots - not for any PC you can physically stuff this video card into.

The upgrade even states that it will NOT work with older machines because they do not have card slots capable of working with this video card - PC users should know all about this especially gamers.

This is the equivalent of getting upset your power hungry USB 2.0. device doesn't work in a USB 1.0 slot.

[smi1ey @ Jan 18th 2008 1:05PM]

andrew i totally agree. to me this is no different than the early adopters of the iphone bitching that the price dropped "too soon." my god, you get what you pay for! if you buy a kit that says it's not compatible with previous machines, don't whine when it's not compatible! i would understand complaints that there maybe isn't a new upgrade kit for the older mac pros, but complaining that a NEW upgrade kit for NEW mac pros isn't compatible with old ones is ridiculous.

[sinai @ Jan 18th 2008 1:07PM]

it's quite obvious that andrew has never used a computer before.

[Paul @ Jan 18th 2008 1:10PM]

No, the problem here is that while the 8800GT does use PCI-ex 2.0, PCI-ex 2.0 is made to be backwards compatible so that it will run at PCI-express 1.0 speeds. It should work in a PCI-express 1.0 16x slot, however Apple's proprietary nature when it comes to hardware have them locking it down so you cant.

If this was anyone else, Dell, HP, ANYONE, everybody would be in up in arms about this, but since its Apple we have livid fans like Andrew here advocating everyone just buy an entirely new computer instead of just upgrading the video card.

[madgamer @ Jan 18th 2008 1:13PM]

Except that this card does not use power (or require bandwidth) outside of the 1.0 PCI express spec (based on what card it is), and the card would be fully backwards compatible in any regular PC. It sounds like a matter of apple simply locking it out arbitrarily to make you upgrade, and that's why people are so angry.

[KC @ Jan 18th 2008 1:27PM]

WTF? It should just work.

[purezerg @ Jan 18th 2008 2:01PM]

I wont be surprise if mac have a CPU upgrade kit for the 45nm CPUs only to say it works with the latest mac pro only.

[bobartig @ Jan 18th 2008 3:01PM]

In Apple's defense, its not always "locking out to screw the user" it is often "not making compatible because we didn't have time, and we may go back and add it, or not".

But the fact is, there are just not enough compatible cards for mac users. This is the first GFX card upgrade in 18 months or so, and it only works with computers that you can already order the card in? What's the point to that?

If you bought your Mac Pro v1 with a Radeon X1900, there's NO upgrade path at all, so 'buy a compatible card' = no upgrade for you.

I am a 20+ years life-long mac user. I always will be as long as Macs are being made, but this is why gaming on a Mac is so damned hard. This matters to me because I'm also a life-long gamer and I've even worked in game development.

[Zeus.:God @ Jan 18th 2008 4:22PM]

Joe, not any more. The low-end 8800 is now the GS, which has just been quietly released.

[Paul @ Jan 18th 2008 4:53PM]

@Zues, no, There are 3 (ok, maybe 4) teirs for the 8800 series.

8800 GTX Ultra
8800 GTX
8800 GS
8800 GT

the GTX + GS were first released with the larger chip size with a slightly different architecture they were also priced starting at around $350. Then the 8800 GT was released by nvidia using a newer architecture. It ran about as fast as the 8800 GS but had a suggest retail price of $200-$300, so it became the best deal out there.

Then, Nvidia updated the chips for the GS and GTX so they now use the same architecture, but are obviously better chips. Despite this ExtremeTech (who reviewed the new cards) said that while you see an increase with the GS vs. the GT now, its not a $100 worth of an increase.

Which brings me to my next beef, why in gods name is Apple charging $350 for a card with a suggested retail price of $200-300? Especially when EVGA is selling the 512 mb version for $270.

/ dont argue computer parts with me, I have no life.

[Hung @ Jan 18th 2008 5:35PM]

@ Paul

Apple charges more because they have to write the drivers. Also, because they can and people who need it will buy it, regardless.

Also, the GS doesn't exist and Nvidia doesn't plan to develop it.

"NVIDIA has no plans to release a GeForce 8800 GS. We have corrected the mistake and will be replacing the document on our website."


/no life < google + not a virgin.

[Zeus.:God @ Jan 18th 2008 8:01PM]

Actually, you're both fucking wrong. I can, right now, go and buy an 8800GS (weaker than the GT, but with equal power to the OLD G80 based GTS) from Europe, right now. XFX is the first board partner to release it, I believe, as that is the first company I have seen it from.

Don't believe me? EDUCATE YOURSELF WITH THE INTERNET.

http://guru3d.com/newsitem.php?id=6332

The GS IS BELOW THE GT. Don't try to correct someone when you're WRONG.

[DAZA @ Jan 19th 2008 1:20AM]

Err.. and WTF happened to the 320MB 8800GTS? Perhaps that's what the inital poster meant by GS .. GTS?

[Zeus.:God @ Jan 19th 2008 6:00AM]

No- READ.

The GS is a completely different card from the old GTS. This is a 384MB card, with the G92 based GPU, with 96 stream processors.

However, this GS will cost roughly 150-200 and have roughly the equivalent performance of a 640MB GTS (according to XFX).

[Hung @ Jan 19th 2008 2:02PM]

@ Zeus.:God

You're an r-tard and such a jerk, too! XFX's GS is liken to the 8700m. It's not a different chip, but a lower-end or quality-failed chip that's been modded but not enough to make pass higher-end standards, so they created a new distinction.

But seriously, what a douche! You probably don't even read official releases and just listen to what other news sites write without the context. Try to be more open-minded and less asshole-ish.

[Hung @ Jan 19th 2008 2:04PM]

You see, Zeus.:God? Even though you're wrong, I was still reasonably nice about it, despite the profane name-calling and dead-on accusations.

[Stuart Seeley @ Jan 23rd 2008 12:23AM]

At least people with old mac pros bought them a while ago.. I just got mine a little over a month before they released the new mac pros. I figured something was coming, but didn't expect not to be able to upgrade the video card. Oh well $4000 wasted... maybe I'll try Dell next time.

[Zeus.:God @ Jan 25th 2008 11:11AM]

Hung, you're such a hypocrite, its not even funny.

The GS isn't a "quality-failed" chip, its the same GPU, I understand, but it has more stream processors deactivated, different memory clocks, and such. Its a different board, with different performance, a different SKU, and a different price.

The funny thing is, I never really flamed anyone, just showed aggrivation. You called me a douche, so really, you're the only one in the wrong here.

Good job, and good luck with life and your failed logic.

[Dec @ Jan 18th 2008 12:07PM]

I still remain amazed at the level of hubris that Apple displays sometimes. The people this kind of decision hurts the most are some of the companies biggest fans, and yet, no matter how badly they are treated, those fans go on loving Apple more and more ...

It's worse than cocaine.

[Andrew @ Jan 18th 2008 12:15PM]

Mac Pros are always packed with the latest hardware so broken backwards compatiblity is going to happen - I am not surprised that a brand new power hungry video card is not compatible with the old hardware card slot in an old Mac Pro but I guess you are.

This happens on the PC side as well - pretty simple - you can only put compatible video cards into the corresponding card slots. Duh!

[darkstar @ Jan 18th 2008 12:17PM]

i know what you mean... its kinda like people buyings xbox 360. i guess the games for xbox 360 must be really really good for people to deal with the flaws. some things i will never understand and prolly never will

[z3r0D @ Jan 18th 2008 12:20PM]

XBOX 360 really doesn't have that many flaws.

Only thing that really was wrong with it was the RROD, and that's almost gone now with the new 45? nm chips.

Stop being a troll. Apple fucked up and you're bashing Microsoft. Get a life fanboi.

[Reader @ Jan 18th 2008 12:27PM]

Comparing a 360 to a Mac is flawed. A better example would be to pay the price of a PS3, but replace the internals with a Wii :D

[System48 @ Jan 18th 2008 1:02PM]

RE: Andrew

Apparently everyone knows this is BS except for you. The original Intel Mac Pro used the 5000X MCH, which does support the 8800GT. It has a 980W power supply which is more than enough for a single 8800GT. There's absolutely no technical reason why the 8800GT wouldn't work in it other than for the fact that Apple would rather people buy the new one.

[r3loaded @ Jan 18th 2008 1:40PM]

Dec, it's not cocaine, it's the Kool-Aid :)

[nmosfet @ Jan 18th 2008 1:48PM]

Re: "Mac Pros are always packed with the latest hardware so broken backwards compatiblity is going to happen"

Andrew, you do realize that 8800GT for PCs work with both PCI-e 2.0 and PCI-e 1.x slots? Infact, the card doesn't even utilize all the bandwidth of 16x PCI-e 1.x so there really isn't a technical reason why PCI-e 2.0 is required (Only uses around 80% at most). PCI-e 2.0 does provide more power per slot but a power connector on the side of the card easily works around the power requirement. Yes, the supplemental power connector and circuitry is incuding on NVIDIA's reference boards, and all PC retail cards I've seen. I haven't seen the Apple card but there should be no reason why it doesn't come with a supplemental power connector esp. for the the price of $350.

[Silenthillnight @ Jan 19th 2008 3:37AM]

Umm Andrew, PCIe slots for Video Cards are the same size whether it's 1.0 or 2.0. The 8800GT is made to be compatible with both 1.0 and 2.0. So the problem isn't not being able to plug it into an older mac pro with a PCIe slot. That's just fucking stupid. The problem is plugging it into an older mac pro and not have it recognized because apple locked out any PCIe 1.0 support on the upgrade kit. That, my friend, is a fucking travesty.

[peternj @ Jan 20th 2008 11:25AM]

Seriously bad news and one that makes me feel worried about buying a Mac Pro as updating the GPU is part of keeping a tower useful over the years. Jobs is actually one of the worst CEOs in the industry when it comes to making a computer for customers to work, rather than play.
My Windows HP Blackbird 002 2GB of RAM, 1.5GB nVidia 8800 Ultra SLi running 32 bit Vista Ultimate makes the 2.8 dual standard Mac Pro look like the slug it is. I need FCS and Shake, so I bought this boring, slow tower to run it on. Aluminum is the new beige. Leopard is the new Vista... except unlike Vista it doesn't work.

[JustinM @ Jan 18th 2008 12:07PM]

$350 for an 8800GT? Christ, that's expensive.

[kal326 @ Jan 18th 2008 2:31PM]

Not really, its for a Mac....thats a bargin.... Hell be happy you can stick a regular HD in one.

[JustinM @ Jan 18th 2008 2:41PM]

I don't really care one way or the other. I don't have one. I've always heard about Macs being more expensive, but I never really paid attention. If this is any indication, though, what with a 40% increase in price, I can see why people complain.

[whatishalo? @ Jan 18th 2008 12:09PM]

And Apple again lives up to it's biz model...the updgrade Nazi: "No Upgrade for YOU!"

[EMoShunz @ Jan 18th 2008 12:09PM]

i'm pretty sure i've read that the backwards compatibility only works as long as it does not create a bottleneck, i.e. the processor kicking out more data than the old pcie can handle.

i do have a question. why as it that the mac 8800's are so slim? i've been lead to believe the other ones are thicker because they need larger heat dissipation components.

[Chris von Eitzen @ Jan 18th 2008 12:13PM]

That's because the new 8800's have a smaller gpu core resulting in less heat and a smaller foot print. Same for the PC versions. I'd love to have one but the new card from them should have 2x of these on one. :)

[Shocker38 @ Jan 18th 2008 12:19PM]

The 8800GT is a newer modle with a smaller heatsink while the rest of the 8000 fmaily has larger heatsinks, this is standard for all hardware systems.

[EMoShunz @ Jan 18th 2008 12:23PM]

@Chris von Eitzen: thank you. i was looking at an older model, that explains it.

[fh @ Jan 18th 2008 12:28PM]

It's fully backwards compatible, both from the device (PCIe2.0 GPU + PCIe1.1 mobo) and from the host (PCIe2.0 mobo + PCIe1.1 GPU). As for actual used bandwidth, it's much like hard drives: we've barely passed saturating x8 PCIe1.1 (even though x16 has been around for a while), so the issue must not be in the spec, but rather in Apple's own hardware implementation. Remember when there used to be Apple-specific GPUs from nVidia/ATi? My guess is that sort of design choice is coming back to bite, now with next-gen GPUs.

Kudos to Apple IF they take the initiative to resolve the issue. But if not, welcome to the world of DIY troubleshooting, where PC builders have been identifying faulty components, tracking down liable manufacturers, and dealing with hours of support tickets and RMAs for many, many years. ;)

[Boostjunkie @ Jan 18th 2008 12:10PM]

Why is it again that a Mac is so great? I can understand for a computer newbie, but for a power user, why would you want a locked down proprietary system.

[Carl Vitullo @ Jan 18th 2008 12:13PM]

exactly. They could be good, but apple is too much of a brand nazi for that to happen.

[DonatoM3 @ Jan 18th 2008 12:24PM]

Their lockdowned proprietary systems are what make Macs great.

If Mac's weren't locked down hardware wise they'd be just as unstable as (dare I say it knowing I'll be low ranked) any PC.

[sinai @ Jan 18th 2008 12:32PM]

as unstable as "any" pc?

My powerbook crashes a lot more than the shuttle i built with these two hands. OSX has the volume bug where the sound shifts to the left for no apparent reason (documented by apple 5 years ago), and now they want me to pay a hundred bucks for a service pack (aka Leopard)?

just because you downloaded Bonzi buddy, does not make Windows an unstable platform.

[EMoShunz @ Jan 18th 2008 12:33PM]

for me, it's os x. i use linux/bsd/xp/and...os x is untouchable. however, kde 4 is a big step to changing that. if apple doesn't open up at least a bit (maybe work with the bsd guys) i give it 5-7 years before oss rocks windows and os x.

[Abuzar @ Jan 18th 2008 12:33PM]

You know Windows isn't all that unstable. Kernel Panics on a LOCKED system is unacceptable.

Personally the only time I've gotten a BSOD is when I tried to take my 800mhz memory and I tightened the timings AND overclocked it to 1000mhz. Well my E6750 worked at 4Ghz for a few minutes at least ;)

[Boostjunkie @ Jan 18th 2008 3:31PM]

I just don't understand when someone uses the Mac OS and acts like the are some kind of elite user. I couldn't possibly use that OS, it does nothing that I need to do. Typically the only time a Windows machine crashes is when you are trying to do something that the Mac probably wouldn't allow in the first place. Such as overclocking, running some unstable piece of software, early hardware drivers. But I like the options, I like doing whatever I want with my system, I build my own systems, I could never be tied down to what someone else thinks I should use. By the way, I'm running Vista SP1, it's much more stable.

[Reid @ Jan 18th 2008 6:36PM]

Yeah, you're a real power user because you can build a PC, just like every single employee at Fry's. You keep good company.

I've built quite a few PCs myself too, but unfortunately it means either being stuck with Windows, or using Linux. I used Linux exclusively for 7 years and it is my job to administer Linux and Solaris, but the Mac is where it's at on the desktop (both home and work).

It'll be interesting how this shakes out. I bought my first-gen Mac Pro with the low-end video card because I'm not a gamer. I'm happy with the card, but I do know I'll end up upgrading it someday. The machine is a year and a half old, it'll probably be another 3 before I'm looking to put something else in. Upgradeability is one of the big reasons for buying the Pro; my laptop lasted 5 years and I expect my desktop to last quite a bit longer. Obviously hard drives, RAM, and CPUs are very upgradeable. Already I can put in 8 cores worth of 3.0ghz, which should be more than enough for some time to come.

[Chris @ Jan 18th 2008 12:12PM]

yeh for a proprietary hardware/software combo.

[Bill Jobs @ Jan 18th 2008 12:14PM]

This article makes me mad.

What kind of idiot does it take to not know you need the latest PCI-Express graphics card slot to use this card?

As a mac fan this was something I was waiting a long time for and really excited about. It was a great progression for the Mac Pro and now because of idiots like this there is confusion and hatred towards Mac... IDIOTS!