GeForce 8800 GT upgrade causes headaches for some Mac Pro users
By Donald Melanson 
posted Jan 18th 2008 11:59AM
posted Jan 18th 2008 11:59AM
It looks like Mac Pro users wanting to get in on some of the latest and greatest action without ditching their old system altogether are still out of luck, despite a recently released "upgrade kit" from Apple that got some of their hopes up, and caused some consternation for anyone that actually took the plunge on one. As a number of users have reported on various discussion forums (one of which is linked below), the $349 GeForce 8800 GT upgrade kit only works in the newest Mac Pros, and not the older models, due to their lack of support for PCI-Express 2.0. That little detail was indicated as requirement by Apple, although many apparently assumed the cards would work because of the inherent backwards compatibility in PCIe 2.0. As you might expect, many users are none to pleased with Apple actions on the matter, with some claiming that the company's interested only in getting customers to buy a new system instead of prolonging the life of their old one. Shocking, we know.
[Thanks, John]
Update: Nvidia's Director of PR emailed us to let us know that the company is "in the middle of bringing out an upgrade kit based on the NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT solution for all Intel-based Mac Pros." What's more, this upgrade kit "should be out in a few weeks." So there you have it, folks. We'll see if they deliver as promised.
Update #2: Minor correction: it seems that Apple didn't indicate that PCIe 2.0 was a requirement from the start. That all-important detail was only added to the description on January 15th, or six days after the cards originally went on sale.
[Thanks, John]
Update: Nvidia's Director of PR emailed us to let us know that the company is "in the middle of bringing out an upgrade kit based on the NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT solution for all Intel-based Mac Pros." What's more, this upgrade kit "should be out in a few weeks." So there you have it, folks. We'll see if they deliver as promised.
Update #2: Minor correction: it seems that Apple didn't indicate that PCIe 2.0 was a requirement from the start. That all-important detail was only added to the description on January 15th, or six days after the cards originally went on sale.
I just stumbled onto this conversation, and WOW! Lots of Mac bashing and misunderstanding here, plus a little of the extreme opposite!
I own both the new and the previous generation of Mac Pro, and let me make a few things clear.
1. Both are very capable, upgradeable towers. Whoever said it must be the "world's least upgradeable" is WAY off-base. (There are certainly several PCI-e RAID controller options out for both old and new Mac Pros, and Apple even offers an SAS compatible card for the new ones now. So yes, things besides a video card are sold to upgrade Mac Pros with via the slots.) The *only* issue here is that *one* particular video card, nVidia's Mac version of the 8800GT, was not designed to be compliant with both EFI32 and EFI64 in its firmware. nVidia has made it clear that they'll be selling a version of the card that IS compliant with EFI32, making it work in older Mac Pros. If you pounced on buying Apple's 8800GT just to have it first, well - too bad for you. Just do a return, get your money back, and hang on a few more weeks for the proper version of the card for YOUR Mac Pro. I don't see the big deal, really.
2. The X1900XT 512MB card I pulled from my older gen. Mac Pro works just fine in the new one, as does the nVidia 7300GT card included with many of them. The ATI Radeon HD2600XT shipping in many new Mac Pros also works fine in the older model. So yes, it's just as PRN explained.
3. Many of the Windows PC fans complaining about the Mac Pro (price, upgrade options, etc. etc.) aren't even considering the fact that the Mac Pro is the equivalent of a "pro workstation" system on the Windows side of things, NOT a standard desktop PC. It uses *Xeon* processors, NOT P4 Core 2 Duos. This should immediately make it clear that this is a machine one would use for heavy-duty data crunching work (video rendering, scientific molecular modeling, multiple virtual instruments and heavy audio processing, etc.). It's simply not a fair comparison to put a Mac Pro head-to-head with your typical Dell P4 desktop. If Apple is guilty of anything, it's the simple fact that they've hung onto their philosophy stemming from the beginning of the Macintosh era; all-in-one machines are "best" for home and small business users. That's why you still see "non expandable" iMacs in their lineup. Sometimes, I think they're right about this, and for other uses, not so much. But it IS the Apple tradition. They made the first "all in one" computer, if you think about it.
Hey guys, do what I did. Run the Mac as a dual boot, install the 8800** card and use it on your main monitor with the DVI connection, run it in parallel to the main monitor with VGA on the older 7300 or 1900xt for Apple use. When you boot up Apple it wont recognize the 8800 and will default to the older card....when you boot up Windows you get 8800** Then you can game, and work on your Apple and keep them separate and running as well as possible until Nvidia comes out with a work around. (or Apple). Or, just keep fighting with everyone about who is better and why Apple sucks or why Windows sucks...it's up to you.
There will be no need to dual boot in the near future. This story is based on an email I sent engadget, and I have been working for the last 5 weeks to get an answer from Apple on this issue. I finally got a response from Steve Jobs yesterday. He said that nVidia is engineering the card, and Apple will distribute it. He said nVidia isn't done yet. We will have an 8800GT that runs in older Mac Pros.
Here is the link as to how it lead me here.
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1399776&start=45&tstart=0
You'll see my frustrations as well, as we are trying to solve the Aperture bogged down issue.
On the site here, there's definitely some talent that knows what's going on. I'm glad I stopped by.
It's been about 2 months now since that quote from Nvidia - has anyone heard anything else since then? Are the cards ever going to come out? Are they still working on it, or have they totally abandoned us? I really need to upgrade my card for Aperture as well, and I hate to spend the money on a mediocre card like the ATI 2600 if I can get a really good card like the Nvidia 8800. :(
Is there something I need to be aware of if I buy a PC-videocard to put in the Mac Pro to run in bootcamp? The card I am interested in is the 8800GT with 1GB or the 9600GT with 1 GB. If I put one of these in the bottom PCI slot in the Mac Pro and the X1900XT in one of the other PCI slots will thos work?
Like you suggested, the bootcamp card will be connected with the DVI cable of my two monitors and the X1900XT with the VGA cables.
In bootcamp I will then have to disable the X1900XT to avoid this card from being used and in MAC OS the X1900XT will work as always because the bootcamp card is not recognized by MAC OS?
I'm asking this because it would be gamble of about €260.
It would appear...that the card is now listed in the Apple store ($279):
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?s=topSellers&fnode=home/shop_mac/mac_accessories/displays&nplm=MB560Z/A&mco=OTkzNDY#overview
A solution is now available, directly from NVidia:
http://www.nvidia.com/object/geforce_8800gt_for_mac.html
Cheaper, too.
my now 8800 gt mack a beep sund ?? help
I bought the 8800GT at an apple store, specifying it was for my 1st generation macpro. It doesn't work on my Mac Pro. Hence I suppose I got the (early 2008) version of the card :( As I live abroad I can't take it back, and I dumped the packaging.
On the card, is there a way (physical difference, marking) to tell the difference between the 2 versions of the card so that I'm sure I got the wrong version ?
thanks.
I'm running an older G5 tower. It's the dual 2ghz that's a few years old now. Does anyone know what is the best (compatible) graphics card i can get for it? my new software for my digital camera system is hammering the card that is currently in there
This is going to sound cliche but I'm a mac user but this is a little bit ridiculous. Isn't the whole point of people buying a Mac Pro (a very expensive investment) is that they can upgrade it down the road?
So Apple pointed out that it wouldn't work on older machines and
people ASSUMED it would work so they bought it anyway and now they
are upset?
WTF is wrong with you Engadget - report on news - dont spread FUD
Why would people assume that just because a card slot is backwards
compatible that a high end power hungry video card will work in that
old slot?
Yeah you can upgrade old machinnes but not mix and match components. If you want a video card for your old Mac Pro get a compatible card. If you want the latest and greatest well then backwards compatibility is going to get broken as brand new cutting edge components are added to new Macs.
The GeForce 8800 GT is the low end of the 8800 series (not "the latest and greatest")and this is intended to be an upgrade package. It's not unreasonable to expect an upgrade to play nice with older components, this is the entire purpose of such an upgrade product.
Joe - really?
latest and greatest refers to the card slot technology in the Mac Pro.
This is an upgrade package for machines with compatible card slots - not for any PC you can physically stuff this video card into.
The upgrade even states that it will NOT work with older machines because they do not have card slots capable of working with this video card - PC users should know all about this especially gamers.
This is the equivalent of getting upset your power hungry USB 2.0. device doesn't work in a USB 1.0 slot.
andrew i totally agree. to me this is no different than the early adopters of the iphone bitching that the price dropped "too soon." my god, you get what you pay for! if you buy a kit that says it's not compatible with previous machines, don't whine when it's not compatible! i would understand complaints that there maybe isn't a new upgrade kit for the older mac pros, but complaining that a NEW upgrade kit for NEW mac pros isn't compatible with old ones is ridiculous.
it's quite obvious that andrew has never used a computer before.
No, the problem here is that while the 8800GT does use PCI-ex 2.0, PCI-ex 2.0 is made to be backwards compatible so that it will run at PCI-express 1.0 speeds. It should work in a PCI-express 1.0 16x slot, however Apple's proprietary nature when it comes to hardware have them locking it down so you cant.
If this was anyone else, Dell, HP, ANYONE, everybody would be in up in arms about this, but since its Apple we have livid fans like Andrew here advocating everyone just buy an entirely new computer instead of just upgrading the video card.
Except that this card does not use power (or require bandwidth) outside of the 1.0 PCI express spec (based on what card it is), and the card would be fully backwards compatible in any regular PC. It sounds like a matter of apple simply locking it out arbitrarily to make you upgrade, and that's why people are so angry.
WTF? It should just work.
I wont be surprise if mac have a CPU upgrade kit for the 45nm CPUs only to say it works with the latest mac pro only.
In Apple's defense, its not always "locking out to screw the user" it is often "not making compatible because we didn't have time, and we may go back and add it, or not".
But the fact is, there are just not enough compatible cards for mac users. This is the first GFX card upgrade in 18 months or so, and it only works with computers that you can already order the card in? What's the point to that?
If you bought your Mac Pro v1 with a Radeon X1900, there's NO upgrade path at all, so 'buy a compatible card' = no upgrade for you.
I am a 20+ years life-long mac user. I always will be as long as Macs are being made, but this is why gaming on a Mac is so damned hard. This matters to me because I'm also a life-long gamer and I've even worked in game development.
Joe, not any more. The low-end 8800 is now the GS, which has just been quietly released.
@Zues, no, There are 3 (ok, maybe 4) teirs for the 8800 series.
8800 GTX Ultra
8800 GTX
8800 GS
8800 GT
the GTX + GS were first released with the larger chip size with a slightly different architecture they were also priced starting at around $350. Then the 8800 GT was released by nvidia using a newer architecture. It ran about as fast as the 8800 GS but had a suggest retail price of $200-$300, so it became the best deal out there.
Then, Nvidia updated the chips for the GS and GTX so they now use the same architecture, but are obviously better chips. Despite this ExtremeTech (who reviewed the new cards) said that while you see an increase with the GS vs. the GT now, its not a $100 worth of an increase.
Which brings me to my next beef, why in gods name is Apple charging $350 for a card with a suggested retail price of $200-300? Especially when EVGA is selling the 512 mb version for $270.
/ dont argue computer parts with me, I have no life.
@ Paul
Apple charges more because they have to write the drivers. Also, because they can and people who need it will buy it, regardless.
Also, the GS doesn't exist and Nvidia doesn't plan to develop it.
"NVIDIA has no plans to release a GeForce 8800 GS. We have corrected the mistake and will be replacing the document on our website."
/no life < google + not a virgin.
Actually, you're both fucking wrong. I can, right now, go and buy an 8800GS (weaker than the GT, but with equal power to the OLD G80 based GTS) from Europe, right now. XFX is the first board partner to release it, I believe, as that is the first company I have seen it from.
Don't believe me? EDUCATE YOURSELF WITH THE INTERNET.
http://guru3d.com/newsitem.php?id=6332
The GS IS BELOW THE GT. Don't try to correct someone when you're WRONG.
Err.. and WTF happened to the 320MB 8800GTS? Perhaps that's what the inital poster meant by GS .. GTS?
No- READ.
The GS is a completely different card from the old GTS. This is a 384MB card, with the G92 based GPU, with 96 stream processors.
However, this GS will cost roughly 150-200 and have roughly the equivalent performance of a 640MB GTS (according to XFX).
@ Zeus.:God
You're an r-tard and such a jerk, too! XFX's GS is liken to the 8700m. It's not a different chip, but a lower-end or quality-failed chip that's been modded but not enough to make pass higher-end standards, so they created a new distinction.
But seriously, what a douche! You probably don't even read official releases and just listen to what other news sites write without the context. Try to be more open-minded and less asshole-ish.
You see, Zeus.:God? Even though you're wrong, I was still reasonably nice about it, despite the profane name-calling and dead-on accusations.
At least people with old mac pros bought them a while ago.. I just got mine a little over a month before they released the new mac pros. I figured something was coming, but didn't expect not to be able to upgrade the video card. Oh well $4000 wasted... maybe I'll try Dell next time.
Hung, you're such a hypocrite, its not even funny.
The GS isn't a "quality-failed" chip, its the same GPU, I understand, but it has more stream processors deactivated, different memory clocks, and such. Its a different board, with different performance, a different SKU, and a different price.
The funny thing is, I never really flamed anyone, just showed aggrivation. You called me a douche, so really, you're the only one in the wrong here.
Good job, and good luck with life and your failed logic.
I still remain amazed at the level of hubris that Apple displays sometimes. The people this kind of decision hurts the most are some of the companies biggest fans, and yet, no matter how badly they are treated, those fans go on loving Apple more and more ...
It's worse than cocaine.
Mac Pros are always packed with the latest hardware so broken backwards compatiblity is going to happen - I am not surprised that a brand new power hungry video card is not compatible with the old hardware card slot in an old Mac Pro but I guess you are.
This happens on the PC side as well - pretty simple - you can only put compatible video cards into the corresponding card slots. Duh!
i know what you mean... its kinda like people buyings xbox 360. i guess the games for xbox 360 must be really really good for people to deal with the flaws. some things i will never understand and prolly never will
XBOX 360 really doesn't have that many flaws.
Only thing that really was wrong with it was the RROD, and that's almost gone now with the new 45? nm chips.
Stop being a troll. Apple fucked up and you're bashing Microsoft. Get a life fanboi.
Comparing a 360 to a Mac is flawed. A better example would be to pay the price of a PS3, but replace the internals with a Wii :D
RE: Andrew
Apparently everyone knows this is BS except for you. The original Intel Mac Pro used the 5000X MCH, which does support the 8800GT. It has a 980W power supply which is more than enough for a single 8800GT. There's absolutely no technical reason why the 8800GT wouldn't work in it other than for the fact that Apple would rather people buy the new one.
Dec, it's not cocaine, it's the Kool-Aid :)
Re: "Mac Pros are always packed with the latest hardware so broken backwards compatiblity is going to happen"
Andrew, you do realize that 8800GT for PCs work with both PCI-e 2.0 and PCI-e 1.x slots? Infact, the card doesn't even utilize all the bandwidth of 16x PCI-e 1.x so there really isn't a technical reason why PCI-e 2.0 is required (Only uses around 80% at most). PCI-e 2.0 does provide more power per slot but a power connector on the side of the card easily works around the power requirement. Yes, the supplemental power connector and circuitry is incuding on NVIDIA's reference boards, and all PC retail cards I've seen. I haven't seen the Apple card but there should be no reason why it doesn't come with a supplemental power connector esp. for the the price of $350.
Umm Andrew, PCIe slots for Video Cards are the same size whether it's 1.0 or 2.0. The 8800GT is made to be compatible with both 1.0 and 2.0. So the problem isn't not being able to plug it into an older mac pro with a PCIe slot. That's just fucking stupid. The problem is plugging it into an older mac pro and not have it recognized because apple locked out any PCIe 1.0 support on the upgrade kit. That, my friend, is a fucking travesty.
Seriously bad news and one that makes me feel worried about buying a Mac Pro as updating the GPU is part of keeping a tower useful over the years. Jobs is actually one of the worst CEOs in the industry when it comes to making a computer for customers to work, rather than play.
My Windows HP Blackbird 002 2GB of RAM, 1.5GB nVidia 8800 Ultra SLi running 32 bit Vista Ultimate makes the 2.8 dual standard Mac Pro look like the slug it is. I need FCS and Shake, so I bought this boring, slow tower to run it on. Aluminum is the new beige. Leopard is the new Vista... except unlike Vista it doesn't work.
$350 for an 8800GT? Christ, that's expensive.
Not really, its for a Mac....thats a bargin.... Hell be happy you can stick a regular HD in one.
I don't really care one way or the other. I don't have one. I've always heard about Macs being more expensive, but I never really paid attention. If this is any indication, though, what with a 40% increase in price, I can see why people complain.
And Apple again lives up to it's biz model...the updgrade Nazi: "No Upgrade for YOU!"
i'm pretty sure i've read that the backwards compatibility only works as long as it does not create a bottleneck, i.e. the processor kicking out more data than the old pcie can handle.
i do have a question. why as it that the mac 8800's are so slim? i've been lead to believe the other ones are thicker because they need larger heat dissipation components.
That's because the new 8800's have a smaller gpu core resulting in less heat and a smaller foot print. Same for the PC versions. I'd love to have one but the new card from them should have 2x of these on one. :)
The 8800GT is a newer modle with a smaller heatsink while the rest of the 8000 fmaily has larger heatsinks, this is standard for all hardware systems.
@Chris von Eitzen: thank you. i was looking at an older model, that explains it.
It's fully backwards compatible, both from the device (PCIe2.0 GPU + PCIe1.1 mobo) and from the host (PCIe2.0 mobo + PCIe1.1 GPU). As for actual used bandwidth, it's much like hard drives: we've barely passed saturating x8 PCIe1.1 (even though x16 has been around for a while), so the issue must not be in the spec, but rather in Apple's own hardware implementation. Remember when there used to be Apple-specific GPUs from nVidia/ATi? My guess is that sort of design choice is coming back to bite, now with next-gen GPUs.
Kudos to Apple IF they take the initiative to resolve the issue. But if not, welcome to the world of DIY troubleshooting, where PC builders have been identifying faulty components, tracking down liable manufacturers, and dealing with hours of support tickets and RMAs for many, many years. ;)
Why is it again that a Mac is so great? I can understand for a computer newbie, but for a power user, why would you want a locked down proprietary system.
exactly. They could be good, but apple is too much of a brand nazi for that to happen.
Their lockdowned proprietary systems are what make Macs great.
If Mac's weren't locked down hardware wise they'd be just as unstable as (dare I say it knowing I'll be low ranked) any PC.
as unstable as "any" pc?
My powerbook crashes a lot more than the shuttle i built with these two hands. OSX has the volume bug where the sound shifts to the left for no apparent reason (documented by apple 5 years ago), and now they want me to pay a hundred bucks for a service pack (aka Leopard)?
just because you downloaded Bonzi buddy, does not make Windows an unstable platform.
for me, it's os x. i use linux/bsd/xp/and...os x is untouchable. however, kde 4 is a big step to changing that. if apple doesn't open up at least a bit (maybe work with the bsd guys) i give it 5-7 years before oss rocks windows and os x.
You know Windows isn't all that unstable. Kernel Panics on a LOCKED system is unacceptable.
Personally the only time I've gotten a BSOD is when I tried to take my 800mhz memory and I tightened the timings AND overclocked it to 1000mhz. Well my E6750 worked at 4Ghz for a few minutes at least ;)
I just don't understand when someone uses the Mac OS and acts like the are some kind of elite user. I couldn't possibly use that OS, it does nothing that I need to do. Typically the only time a Windows machine crashes is when you are trying to do something that the Mac probably wouldn't allow in the first place. Such as overclocking, running some unstable piece of software, early hardware drivers. But I like the options, I like doing whatever I want with my system, I build my own systems, I could never be tied down to what someone else thinks I should use. By the way, I'm running Vista SP1, it's much more stable.
Yeah, you're a real power user because you can build a PC, just like every single employee at Fry's. You keep good company.
I've built quite a few PCs myself too, but unfortunately it means either being stuck with Windows, or using Linux. I used Linux exclusively for 7 years and it is my job to administer Linux and Solaris, but the Mac is where it's at on the desktop (both home and work).
It'll be interesting how this shakes out. I bought my first-gen Mac Pro with the low-end video card because I'm not a gamer. I'm happy with the card, but I do know I'll end up upgrading it someday. The machine is a year and a half old, it'll probably be another 3 before I'm looking to put something else in. Upgradeability is one of the big reasons for buying the Pro; my laptop lasted 5 years and I expect my desktop to last quite a bit longer. Obviously hard drives, RAM, and CPUs are very upgradeable. Already I can put in 8 cores worth of 3.0ghz, which should be more than enough for some time to come.
yeh for a proprietary hardware/software combo.
This article makes me mad.
What kind of idiot does it take to not know you need the latest PCI-Express graphics card slot to use this card?
As a mac fan this was something I was waiting a long time for and really excited about. It was a great progression for the Mac Pro and now because of idiots like this there is confusion and hatred towards Mac... IDIOTS!
The kind of idiots that expect things to "just work"?
On the PC side, all 8800 cards work in PCI-e 1.0 slots (provided enough power from the PSU).
"confusion and hatred against macs" oh no!
Uh...no. Please don't insult people when you don't know what you're talking about. PCI-e is like USB; backwards compatibility is built-in. You can put the card in a PCI-e x16 slot on a PC, and you should be able to do it on a Mac according to the standard. At best, this is extreme lazyness on Apple's part. At worst it's greedyness.
You're the idiot. The 8800GT works fine in PCI-E 16x slots. You don't NEED PCI-E 2.0 to run the 8800GT, it doesn't use that much bandwidth.
So you expect this upgrade card to work in older mac pros?
Anyhow I guess don't know much about the PC side of things, all I knew was that the new mac pros can now accept the 8800. I thought that was common knowledge and something that was going to excite more people to get a mac pro. I personally knew a lot of people waiting for better graphics options before seriously considering getting one.
For those left in the dust and need to upgrade to enjoy, get with the program, hey at least you have the option to.
@Abuzar: i know in theory you are right, but then why do the evga ones run faster on 2.0 than 1.1? serious question, not being facetious.
Wow. Just wow. You are surprised people don't want to buy a whole new computer for absolutely no technical reason?
How the hell do I start a business like Apple where I can screw over my customers again and again and yet they all line up to pay the EAT (Early Adopter Tax)?
The brand loyalty Apple has built is legendary.
I've personally tested it on both and I didn't see any difference. This was done with a 3870 though...
thats why i always build my own mac. www.osx86project.org is my apple store!
Do you know if the Dell Lattitude XT tablet would run osx 86? (Leopard)
That would be sweet. I like how this has finger touch unlike the modbook.
Another brave man, giving Apple and their direct horrid DMCA abuse the finger. Rock on.
...but I'll stick with Ubuntu and submit ideas and feature requests until it is what I want it to be... it's getting pretty darn close. You can't take a windows install on a hard drive, move it from machine to machine, and expect it to just reconfigure itself and work. Think about it. Isn't that amazing? Yeah, that's Ubuntu Hardy. It uses on the fly graphical configuration instead of xorg.conf now.
Then of course there's the fact that you can get it for all major architectures, it costs nothing, and all software is updated centrally.. it's easier to use than windows by a long shot, it has eye candy that puts both aero and leapord to shame... And with Hardy, I understand there's a very strong emphasis on stability, so no more of this xorg-decided-to-barf-on-you business. (reminds me too much of explorer.exe) ethana2@gmail.com
$350 for a 8800GT isn't expensive.
$850 for 4GB of RAM on a macbook, THAT is expensive.
Yeah. It's actually more than $850, really because the price of the 1GB is in there already. 4GB RAM for the MacBook at Crucial is $107...
Well you can get the 8800GT or better yet the 3870 for around 240. It's still expensive, although not NEARLY as much as the RAM.
Better yet? It's my understanding that the 8800gt betters the 3870 by a fair margin in most tests. And if you look hard enough, you can find the 8800gt for $250, a comparable price to the 3870 (both with 512MB).
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130319
mac hardware is a joke
putting such a nice card into a Mac is such a waste. . .
yeah, it's not only that, but the fact that they are STILL selling the way outdated x1900 for 400 friggin dollars which is 50 dollars MORE than the 8800GT!!!!
I will defend apple on most decisions they make, but this is flat out greedy and shady to say the least. We paid the price for these machines specifically for the upgradeability. I can run an 8800GT in bootcamp, so why is it so hard to run it in OS X?
EFI, EFI, EFI my ass. Get it working apple. period. this is BS
Too bad that card wouldn't be used for any gaming on the Mac! hahahhaha :)
Yeah, but the 3d graphic artists are using the macs to make the precious games that you love so much. It still serves a purpose.
What's so funny? The fact that you didn't know that games for the Mac existed?
All our games are made on the Mac? Didn't know that, and I still doubt it.
"Yeah, but the 3d graphic artists are using the macs to make the precious games that you love so much. It still serves a purpose."
No we`re not...
srsly, stfu.
games are made on many MANY platforms. there is no reason to choose a Macintosh platform over any other. Maya is multiplatform, but 3D Studio Max is Windows only. so for you to say "lulz games are MADE on macs though!" is spreading idiocy and ignorance.
PS - they make PC games on Mac?
They make PC games on a Mac?
>> PS - they make PC games on Mac?
No, unless they run WinXP or Vista on their MacPros via BootCamp or Parallels. The only reason to use a Mac for game development would be for drawing static visuals (backgrounds, artwork, etc.) with the all-omnipresent Adobe Photoshop and for perhaps creating 2D animations with what I once used to call Macromedia Flash (now Adobe Flash). Otherwise a Mac with no BootCamp nor Parallels is useless for PC games because it cannot compile C++ code into genuine Windows x86 executables if such code requires pre-assembled Windows-only binaries (most notably DirectX routines, and there is no DirectX for Mac) in order to compile. And even so, some of the newest games for Windows (and even Xbox 360) are done now with the help of the all-new XNA.
@John
Do you honestly believe that mac propaganda? two of the three main 3d modeling programs (3d studio max, xsi, maya) don't even have an OSX version. All games with map design programs only have the program for windows. Besides, what game designer would ever want to compile and then switch OSes to test it?
As for the video card, there's no reason it shouldn't work. The 8800GT cards for PCs all work with pci-e 1.1 or 2.0 sockets with the power connector. They obviously didn't make the choice to exclude a power connector in favor of powering it just off of the slot in the new mac pros because that picture shows the power cable connected.
John...I'm in gaming and the industry is probably 95 percent PC. I work for game companies that employed somewhere between 300 to 1200 people and I have never saw a single mac! Get your facts right.
From the WoW boards, it's being hinted the issue isn't PCIe compatibility, but instead firmware issues.
The majority of PCs still use BIOS, and so a video card in a PC has to support BIOS to boot.
The first gen Mac Pros used EFI32, and so the video cards had to support EFI32.
The newer Mac Pros use EFI 64, and so the video cards have to support EFI64.
It's possible to build the ROM on the video card to support all 3, but the issue may be here that the ROM on the 8800GTs Apple uses are EFI64 only, or possibly EFI64 and BIOS only. Two things can fix this issue. Firmware upgrades to the video card prior to being put into the first gen Mac Pro. Or a firmware upgrade for the first gen Mac Pro that turns it into EFI64. Going the second route though will likely require Leopard due to it supporting EFI64 booting.
The bios issue is unacceptable at this point. It was almost passable to have different "AGP" and "PCI" card bios when Apple used PowerPC. They JUST changed to Intel, and before the machine is Rev'd 1 time they have made the bios incompatible? So boards sold for one INTEL MAC PRO don't work in another INTEL MAC PRO. WT*! That's not acceptable, why not simply update the firmware on all the old Mac Pros to the new version like any PC company would do? Or provide a pre-installed program to down-flash the card after it's installed.
From other pages on the internet the PC version (with PC bios) of the SAME CARD works under Boot camp and windows!!!! Think about that. This is as silly as the other "updates" Apple has done this year.. the pay for upgrades to wireless n and iPod Touch, suddenly dropping iPhone $200, cutting of Boot Camp re-installs in 30 days after 2 years of waiting on Apple for the product, etc.. Apple makes good stuff, but man they make STUPID decisions to cut off their PAYING customers at the worst times!!!
How is it unacceptable? EFI32 was the shipping standard recommended by the UEFI group when the Mac Pro came out. EFI64 was finished, and is now the recommended standard from UEFI, and Apple is simply following those guidelines.
NVidia makes the ROM on the video card, and for some reason chose not to make it EFI32 and EFI64 compatible. Should Apple have asked for this? Yes, more then likely, but also nothing prevented NVidia from just doing it anyhow, as they had all the tech specs for the systems.
As already stated, Apple could upgrade the firmware on the first gen Mac Pros to EFI64, but then they have to contend with issues of booting their EFI32 os called Tiger that shipped on those machines. Tiger is in maintenance mode now, so rewriting it's boot code is not going to be trivial.
Given time (and odds are not a ton of time), this issue will be resolved one way or another. This is just another OMG moment of the internet overreacting to an issue on a product not even shipping yet.
As for the PC cards working under bootcamp, so? Windows is a BIOS based OS, and Macs ship with an EFI compatibility module that allows BIOS based OSes to boot and thus use BIOS based hardware. Since OS X 10.4.5 and above are EFI based only, they don't touch that compatibility module, thus the BIOS routines on the card aren't looked at.
Simply put, the issue is that Apple chose to move to Intel and they did so in a way that didn't bring 30 years of legacy baggage with it. HP, Dell, and the others still hold to the old BIOS when nothing else in a modern system even is remotely like what it was 30 years ago. Until more of the market shifts, the companies on the edge of the new stuff like Apple will have to sort out these issues.
This story misses some things. Someone wrote Steve Jobs an email about this, and he said the issue is being worked on. Maybe it's a fake email, but the guy provided evidence of a real email.
Other people have talked to apple representatives who have stated that they this problem only became known to apple days before the new mac pros shipped.
Sure, apple should have done more testing, and they have not handled this properly, but right now it DOES NOT look like Apple is intentionally denying the 8800 card to owners of old Mac Pros.
Also, note that the new ATI card (forget the model) that is the base card on the new mac pros is available for $149 and works on the old Mac pros. It's less powerful, but is an upgrade from the 7300 card that was the base on the old mac pros.
I think apple will have a resolution to this at some point. Otherwise, many potential mac pro buyers will buy something else in the future.
They have a system that you can't upgrade? But what is all this I hear about being rewarded by Greenpeace??
Say it ain't so. [rolls eyes]
you DO understand the reason why Apple can get away with blind-sided highway robbery like this is because Apple users are not computer-savvy enough to order and put it in themselves, right?
Really? I'm pretty sure the majority of PC users don't know how to install RAM either and get charged an arm and a leg for adding half a gb.
Note that I didn't say that all of you couldn't do it. Because. You know. It'd be silly to generalize and say something like "because Apple users are not computer-savvy enough to order and put it in themselves"
Another reason and I believe a more valid one is that the majority of Mac users are also wealthier than PC users.
I'm willing to bet that the majority of Mac Pro users install RAM and other things themselves. Haven't you ever seen the G5/Mac Pro tower? That thing is easier to open than a pudding cup. Apple actually makes it well known just how great the case design is (which I could easily argue against since I own a G5, but I digress because it is easier than any other computer I've worked when it comes to accessing the internals). Contrasting this, I'm looking at the back of the HP sitting here at work, and I see no way to access the insides without a screwdriver. Who knows what the inside looks like? Knowing HP, probably a tangled mass of wires. The inside of the G5/Mac Pro is very clean and simple to access. I'm pretty sure Apple does the same exact thing as EVERY OTHER SIMILAR COMPANY when it comes to offering additions at the point of purchase.
It's actually hilarious to assume that most Mac users can't upgrade their computers when it's obvious that, in fact, Windows users are far less computer savvy. Most people don't even think about what they want in a computer, they just know that Windows is what they're used to and Window is widely used, therefore Windows is good and so they buy it. Everyone knows this type of person. I know dozens of this type of person because they're constantly asking me for help with their computers. On the other hand, I'd say that most people who buy Macs put more thought into it before they buy it (and not just because of the "Apple tax").
@Joe Shmoe
the 8800gt is one of the best in the Nvidia 8800 range, because it is based on the G92 Core,(9xxx)
It easyly beats the old G80 GTS and even beats the GTX on some games.
The best in the range currently is the new GTS (G92) and the ultra by like 3 FPS.
UGH, reply system seems broken. this was supposed to be a reply for the $850 comment up there
see what i mean? :(