GeForce 8800 GT upgrade causes headaches for some Mac Pro users

It looks like Mac Pro users wanting to get in on some of the latest and greatest action without ditching their old system altogether are still out of luck, despite a recently released "upgrade kit" from Apple that got some of their hopes up, and caused some consternation for anyone that actually took the plunge on one. As a number of users have reported on various discussion forums (one of which is linked below), the $349 GeForce 8800 GT upgrade kit only works in the newest Mac Pros, and not the older models, due to their lack of support for PCI-Express 2.0. That little detail was indicated as requirement by Apple, although many apparently assumed the cards would work because of the inherent backwards compatibility in PCIe 2.0. As you might expect, many users are none to pleased with Apple actions on the matter, with some claiming that the company's interested only in getting customers to buy a new system instead of prolonging the life of their old one. Shocking, we know.

[Thanks, John]

Update: Nvidia's Director of PR emailed us to let us know that the company is "in the middle of bringing out an upgrade kit based on the NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT solution for all Intel-based Mac Pros." What's more, this upgrade kit "should be out in a few weeks." So there you have it, folks. We'll see if they deliver as promised.

Update #2: Minor correction: it seems that Apple didn't indicate that PCIe 2.0 was a requirement from the start. That all-important detail was only added to the description on January 15th, or six days after the cards originally went on sale.

[Tom W @ Jan 31st 2008 3:58PM]

I just stumbled onto this conversation, and WOW! Lots of Mac bashing and misunderstanding here, plus a little of the extreme opposite!

I own both the new and the previous generation of Mac Pro, and let me make a few things clear.

1. Both are very capable, upgradeable towers. Whoever said it must be the "world's least upgradeable" is WAY off-base. (There are certainly several PCI-e RAID controller options out for both old and new Mac Pros, and Apple even offers an SAS compatible card for the new ones now. So yes, things besides a video card are sold to upgrade Mac Pros with via the slots.) The *only* issue here is that *one* particular video card, nVidia's Mac version of the 8800GT, was not designed to be compliant with both EFI32 and EFI64 in its firmware. nVidia has made it clear that they'll be selling a version of the card that IS compliant with EFI32, making it work in older Mac Pros. If you pounced on buying Apple's 8800GT just to have it first, well - too bad for you. Just do a return, get your money back, and hang on a few more weeks for the proper version of the card for YOUR Mac Pro. I don't see the big deal, really.

2. The X1900XT 512MB card I pulled from my older gen. Mac Pro works just fine in the new one, as does the nVidia 7300GT card included with many of them. The ATI Radeon HD2600XT shipping in many new Mac Pros also works fine in the older model. So yes, it's just as PRN explained.

3. Many of the Windows PC fans complaining about the Mac Pro (price, upgrade options, etc. etc.) aren't even considering the fact that the Mac Pro is the equivalent of a "pro workstation" system on the Windows side of things, NOT a standard desktop PC. It uses *Xeon* processors, NOT P4 Core 2 Duos. This should immediately make it clear that this is a machine one would use for heavy-duty data crunching work (video rendering, scientific molecular modeling, multiple virtual instruments and heavy audio processing, etc.). It's simply not a fair comparison to put a Mac Pro head-to-head with your typical Dell P4 desktop. If Apple is guilty of anything, it's the simple fact that they've hung onto their philosophy stemming from the beginning of the Macintosh era; all-in-one machines are "best" for home and small business users. That's why you still see "non expandable" iMacs in their lineup. Sometimes, I think they're right about this, and for other uses, not so much. But it IS the Apple tradition. They made the first "all in one" computer, if you think about it.

[GoofyMac @ Feb 10th 2008 10:37PM]

Hey guys, do what I did. Run the Mac as a dual boot, install the 8800** card and use it on your main monitor with the DVI connection, run it in parallel to the main monitor with VGA on the older 7300 or 1900xt for Apple use. When you boot up Apple it wont recognize the 8800 and will default to the older card....when you boot up Windows you get 8800** Then you can game, and work on your Apple and keep them separate and running as well as possible until Nvidia comes out with a work around. (or Apple). Or, just keep fighting with everyone about who is better and why Apple sucks or why Windows sucks...it's up to you.

[John Peterson @ Feb 10th 2008 11:14PM]

There will be no need to dual boot in the near future. This story is based on an email I sent engadget, and I have been working for the last 5 weeks to get an answer from Apple on this issue. I finally got a response from Steve Jobs yesterday. He said that nVidia is engineering the card, and Apple will distribute it. He said nVidia isn't done yet. We will have an 8800GT that runs in older Mac Pros.

[Philscbx @ Mar 10th 2008 7:41AM]

Here is the link as to how it lead me here.
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1399776&start=45&tstart=0
You'll see my frustrations as well, as we are trying to solve the Aperture bogged down issue.
On the site here, there's definitely some talent that knows what's going on. I'm glad I stopped by.

[Will @ Mar 16th 2008 4:31PM]

It's been about 2 months now since that quote from Nvidia - has anyone heard anything else since then? Are the cards ever going to come out? Are they still working on it, or have they totally abandoned us? I really need to upgrade my card for Aperture as well, and I hate to spend the money on a mediocre card like the ATI 2600 if I can get a really good card like the Nvidia 8800. :(

[Pesch @ Apr 6th 2008 6:13AM]

Is there something I need to be aware of if I buy a PC-videocard to put in the Mac Pro to run in bootcamp? The card I am interested in is the 8800GT with 1GB or the 9600GT with 1 GB. If I put one of these in the bottom PCI slot in the Mac Pro and the X1900XT in one of the other PCI slots will thos work?
Like you suggested, the bootcamp card will be connected with the DVI cable of my two monitors and the X1900XT with the VGA cables.
In bootcamp I will then have to disable the X1900XT to avoid this card from being used and in MAC OS the X1900XT will work as always because the bootcamp card is not recognized by MAC OS?
I'm asking this because it would be gamble of about €260.

[Will @ Apr 15th 2008 11:05AM]

It would appear...that the card is now listed in the Apple store ($279):

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?s=topSellers&fnode=home/shop_mac/mac_accessories/displays&nplm=MB560Z/A&mco=OTkzNDY#overview

[ianb @ May 6th 2008 3:38PM]

A solution is now available, directly from NVidia:

http://www.nvidia.com/object/geforce_8800gt_for_mac.html

Cheaper, too.

[sniper_i @ Jul 22nd 2008 9:08AM]

my now 8800 gt mack a beep sund ?? help

[Rodrigo @ Aug 31st 2008 3:28PM]

I bought the 8800GT at an apple store, specifying it was for my 1st generation macpro. It doesn't work on my Mac Pro. Hence I suppose I got the (early 2008) version of the card :( As I live abroad I can't take it back, and I dumped the packaging.
On the card, is there a way (physical difference, marking) to tell the difference between the 2 versions of the card so that I'm sure I got the wrong version ?
thanks.

[Rob @ Feb 17th 2009 4:12AM]

I'm running an older G5 tower. It's the dual 2ghz that's a few years old now. Does anyone know what is the best (compatible) graphics card i can get for it? my new software for my digital camera system is hammering the card that is currently in there

[LoganT @ Jan 18th 2008 12:05PM]

This is going to sound cliche but I'm a mac user but this is a little bit ridiculous. Isn't the whole point of people buying a Mac Pro (a very expensive investment) is that they can upgrade it down the road?

[Andrew @ Jan 18th 2008 12:11PM]

So Apple pointed out that it wouldn't work on older machines and
people ASSUMED it would work so they bought it anyway and now they
are upset?

WTF is wrong with you Engadget - report on news - dont spread FUD

Why would people assume that just because a card slot is backwards
compatible that a high end power hungry video card will work in that
old slot?

Yeah you can upgrade old machinnes but not mix and match components. If you want a video card for your old Mac Pro get a compatible card. If you want the latest and greatest well then backwards compatibility is going to get broken as brand new cutting edge components are added to new Macs.

[Joe Shmoe @ Jan 18th 2008 12:19PM]

The GeForce 8800 GT is the low end of the 8800 series (not "the latest and greatest")and this is intended to be an upgrade package. It's not unreasonable to expect an upgrade to play nice with older components, this is the entire purpose of such an upgrade product.

[Andrew @ Jan 18th 2008 12:38PM]

Joe - really?

latest and greatest refers to the card slot technology in the Mac Pro.

This is an upgrade package for machines with compatible card slots - not for any PC you can physically stuff this video card into.

The upgrade even states that it will NOT work with older machines because they do not have card slots capable of working with this video card - PC users should know all about this especially gamers.

This is the equivalent of getting upset your power hungry USB 2.0. device doesn't work in a USB 1.0 slot.

[smi1ey @ Jan 18th 2008 1:05PM]

andrew i totally agree. to me this is no different than the early adopters of the iphone bitching that the price dropped "too soon." my god, you get what you pay for! if you buy a kit that says it's not compatible with previous machines, don't whine when it's not compatible! i would understand complaints that there maybe isn't a new upgrade kit for the older mac pros, but complaining that a NEW upgrade kit for NEW mac pros isn't compatible with old ones is ridiculous.

[sinai @ Jan 18th 2008 1:07PM]

it's quite obvious that andrew has never used a computer before.

[Paul @ Jan 18th 2008 1:10PM]

No, the problem here is that while the 8800GT does use PCI-ex 2.0, PCI-ex 2.0 is made to be backwards compatible so that it will run at PCI-express 1.0 speeds. It should work in a PCI-express 1.0 16x slot, however Apple's proprietary nature when it comes to hardware have them locking it down so you cant.

If this was anyone else, Dell, HP, ANYONE, everybody would be in up in arms about this, but since its Apple we have livid fans like Andrew here advocating everyone just buy an entirely new computer instead of just upgrading the video card.

[madgamer @ Jan 18th 2008 1:13PM]

Except that this card does not use power (or require bandwidth) outside of the 1.0 PCI express spec (based on what card it is), and the card would be fully backwards compatible in any regular PC. It sounds like a matter of apple simply locking it out arbitrarily to make you upgrade, and that's why people are so angry.

[KC @ Jan 18th 2008 1:27PM]

WTF? It should just work.

[purezerg @ Jan 18th 2008 2:01PM]

I wont be surprise if mac have a CPU upgrade kit for the 45nm CPUs only to say it works with the latest mac pro only.

[bobartig @ Jan 18th 2008 3:01PM]

In Apple's defense, its not always "locking out to screw the user" it is often "not making compatible because we didn't have time, and we may go back and add it, or not".

But the fact is, there are just not enough compatible cards for mac users. This is the first GFX card upgrade in 18 months or so, and it only works with computers that you can already order the card in? What's the point to that?

If you bought your Mac Pro v1 with a Radeon X1900, there's NO upgrade path at all, so 'buy a compatible card' = no upgrade for you.

I am a 20+ years life-long mac user. I always will be as long as Macs are being made, but this is why gaming on a Mac is so damned hard. This matters to me because I'm also a life-long gamer and I've even worked in game development.

[Zeus.:God @ Jan 18th 2008 4:22PM]

Joe, not any more. The low-end 8800 is now the GS, which has just been quietly released.

[Paul @ Jan 18th 2008 4:53PM]

@Zues, no, There are 3 (ok, maybe 4) teirs for the 8800 series.

8800 GTX Ultra
8800 GTX
8800 GS
8800 GT

the GTX + GS were first released with the larger chip size with a slightly different architecture they were also priced starting at around $350. Then the 8800 GT was released by nvidia using a newer architecture. It ran about as fast as the 8800 GS but had a suggest retail price of $200-$300, so it became the best deal out there.

Then, Nvidia updated the chips for the GS and GTX so they now use the same architecture, but are obviously better chips. Despite this ExtremeTech (who reviewed the new cards) said that while you see an increase with the GS vs. the GT now, its not a $100 worth of an increase.

Which brings me to my next beef, why in gods name is Apple charging $350 for a card with a suggested retail price of $200-300? Especially when EVGA is selling the 512 mb version for $270.

/ dont argue computer parts with me, I have no life.

[Hung @ Jan 18th 2008 5:35PM]

@ Paul

Apple charges more because they have to write the drivers. Also, because they can and people who need it will buy it, regardless.

Also, the GS doesn't exist and Nvidia doesn't plan to develop it.

"NVIDIA has no plans to release a GeForce 8800 GS. We have corrected the mistake and will be replacing the document on our website."


/no life < google + not a virgin.

[Zeus.:God @ Jan 18th 2008 8:01PM]

Actually, you're both fucking wrong. I can, right now, go and buy an 8800GS (weaker than the GT, but with equal power to the OLD G80 based GTS) from Europe, right now. XFX is the first board partner to release it, I believe, as that is the first company I have seen it from.

Don't believe me? EDUCATE YOURSELF WITH THE INTERNET.

http://guru3d.com/newsitem.php?id=6332

The GS IS BELOW THE GT. Don't try to correct someone when you're WRONG.

[DAZA @ Jan 19th 2008 1:20AM]

Err.. and WTF happened to the 320MB 8800GTS? Perhaps that's what the inital poster meant by GS .. GTS?

[Zeus.:God @ Jan 19th 2008 6:00AM]

No- READ.

The GS is a completely different card from the old GTS. This is a 384MB card, with the G92 based GPU, with 96 stream processors.

However, this GS will cost roughly 150-200 and have roughly the equivalent performance of a 640MB GTS (according to XFX).

[Hung @ Jan 19th 2008 2:02PM]

@ Zeus.:God

You're an r-tard and such a jerk, too! XFX's GS is liken to the 8700m. It's not a different chip, but a lower-end or quality-failed chip that's been modded but not enough to make pass higher-end standards, so they created a new distinction.

But seriously, what a douche! You probably don't even read official releases and just listen to what other news sites write without the context. Try to be more open-minded and less asshole-ish.

[Hung @ Jan 19th 2008 2:04PM]

You see, Zeus.:God? Even though you're wrong, I was still reasonably nice about it, despite the profane name-calling and dead-on accusations.

[Stuart Seeley @ Jan 23rd 2008 12:23AM]

At least people with old mac pros bought them a while ago.. I just got mine a little over a month before they released the new mac pros. I figured something was coming, but didn't expect not to be able to upgrade the video card. Oh well $4000 wasted... maybe I'll try Dell next time.

[Zeus.:God @ Jan 25th 2008 11:11AM]

Hung, you're such a hypocrite, its not even funny.

The GS isn't a "quality-failed" chip, its the same GPU, I understand, but it has more stream processors deactivated, different memory clocks, and such. Its a different board, with different performance, a different SKU, and a different price.

The funny thing is, I never really flamed anyone, just showed aggrivation. You called me a douche, so really, you're the only one in the wrong here.

Good job, and good luck with life and your failed logic.

[Dec @ Jan 18th 2008 12:07PM]

I still remain amazed at the level of hubris that Apple displays sometimes. The people this kind of decision hurts the most are some of the companies biggest fans, and yet, no matter how badly they are treated, those fans go on loving Apple more and more ...

It's worse than cocaine.

[Andrew @ Jan 18th 2008 12:15PM]

Mac Pros are always packed with the latest hardware so broken backwards compatiblity is going to happen - I am not surprised that a brand new power hungry video card is not compatible with the old hardware card slot in an old Mac Pro but I guess you are.

This happens on the PC side as well - pretty simple - you can only put compatible video cards into the corresponding card slots. Duh!

[darkstar @ Jan 18th 2008 12:17PM]

i know what you mean... its kinda like people buyings xbox 360. i guess the games for xbox 360 must be really really good for people to deal with the flaws. some things i will never understand and prolly never will

[z3r0D @ Jan 18th 2008 12:20PM]

XBOX 360 really doesn't have that many flaws.

Only thing that really was wrong with it was the RROD, and that's almost gone now with the new 45? nm chips.

Stop being a troll. Apple fucked up and you're bashing Microsoft. Get a life fanboi.

[Reader @ Jan 18th 2008 12:27PM]

Comparing a 360 to a Mac is flawed. A better example would be to pay the price of a PS3, but replace the internals with a Wii :D

[System48 @ Jan 18th 2008 1:02PM]

RE: Andrew

Apparently everyone knows this is BS except for you. The original Intel Mac Pro used the 5000X MCH, which does support the 8800GT. It has a 980W power supply which is more than enough for a single 8800GT. There's absolutely no technical reason why the 8800GT wouldn't work in it other than for the fact that Apple would rather people buy the new one.

[r3loaded @ Jan 18th 2008 1:40PM]

Dec, it's not cocaine, it's the Kool-Aid :)

[nmosfet @ Jan 18th 2008 1:48PM]

Re: "Mac Pros are always packed with the latest hardware so broken backwards compatiblity is going to happen"

Andrew, you do realize that 8800GT for PCs work with both PCI-e 2.0 and PCI-e 1.x slots? Infact, the card doesn't even utilize all the bandwidth of 16x PCI-e 1.x so there really isn't a technical reason why PCI-e 2.0 is required (Only uses around 80% at most). PCI-e 2.0 does provide more power per slot but a power connector on the side of the card easily works around the power requirement. Yes, the supplemental power connector and circuitry is incuding on NVIDIA's reference boards, and all PC retail cards I've seen. I haven't seen the Apple card but there should be no reason why it doesn't come with a supplemental power connector esp. for the the price of $350.

[Silenthillnight @ Jan 19th 2008 3:37AM]

Umm Andrew, PCIe slots for Video Cards are the same size whether it's 1.0 or 2.0. The 8800GT is made to be compatible with both 1.0 and 2.0. So the problem isn't not being able to plug it into an older mac pro with a PCIe slot. That's just fucking stupid. The problem is plugging it into an older mac pro and not have it recognized because apple locked out any PCIe 1.0 support on the upgrade kit. That, my friend, is a fucking travesty.

[peternj @ Jan 20th 2008 11:25AM]

Seriously bad news and one that makes me feel worried about buying a Mac Pro as updating the GPU is part of keeping a tower useful over the years. Jobs is actually one of the worst CEOs in the industry when it comes to making a computer for customers to work, rather than play.
My Windows HP Blackbird 002 2GB of RAM, 1.5GB nVidia 8800 Ultra SLi running 32 bit Vista Ultimate makes the 2.8 dual standard Mac Pro look like the slug it is. I need FCS and Shake, so I bought this boring, slow tower to run it on. Aluminum is the new beige. Leopard is the new Vista... except unlike Vista it doesn't work.

[JustinM @ Jan 18th 2008 12:07PM]

$350 for an 8800GT? Christ, that's expensive.

[kal326 @ Jan 18th 2008 2:31PM]

Not really, its for a Mac....thats a bargin.... Hell be happy you can stick a regular HD in one.

[JustinM @ Jan 18th 2008 2:41PM]

I don't really care one way or the other. I don't have one. I've always heard about Macs being more expensive, but I never really paid attention. If this is any indication, though, what with a 40% increase in price, I can see why people complain.

[whatishalo? @ Jan 18th 2008 12:09PM]

And Apple again lives up to it's biz model...the updgrade Nazi: "No Upgrade for YOU!"

[EMoShunz @ Jan 18th 2008 12:09PM]

i'm pretty sure i've read that the backwards compatibility only works as long as it does not create a bottleneck, i.e. the processor kicking out more data than the old pcie can handle.

i do have a question. why as it that the mac 8800's are so slim? i've been lead to believe the other ones are thicker because they need larger heat dissipation components.

[Chris von Eitzen @ Jan 18th 2008 12:13PM]

That's because the new 8800's have a smaller gpu core resulting in less heat and a smaller foot print. Same for the PC versions. I'd love to have one but the new card from them should have 2x of these on one. :)

[Shocker38 @ Jan 18th 2008 12:19PM]

The 8800GT is a newer modle with a smaller heatsink while the rest of the 8000 fmaily has larger heatsinks, this is standard for all hardware systems.

[EMoShunz @ Jan 18th 2008 12:23PM]

@Chris von Eitzen: thank you. i was looking at an older model, that explains it.