Poll: Did HTC mishandle the video driver controversy?

In case you haven't been following all the drama over at Engadget Mobile, Taiwanese smartphone kingpin HTC is seeing a rather unexpected customer backlash over sub-par video playback in recent devices employing Qualcomm's MSM7xxx chipsets -- apparently, handsets like the popular TyTN II and Touch Cruise were purposely shipped without drivers that would take advantage of the embedded ATI Imageon acceleration hardware. And now, instead of issuing a mea culpa or at least providing the drivers for a small fee, HTC has basically suggested in a recent statement that consumers will need to upgrade to future products if they want "high-resolution video support." Obviously customers are outraged, with the statement only fueling further talk of a class action lawsuit.

We think it's time for the Engadget community at large to weigh in on this snowballing controversy: what (if anything) should HTC have done differently in order to maintain the proactive, customer-friendly image that it has up to this point been known for?

What should HTC have done differently with respect to the video driver controversy?

Nothing, quit whining: they never advertised video acceleration when pitching the devices in questionAt least tell me on the box that a known feature of this chipset isn't supported, geez!Drivers should have been built right in; don't they have some great developers over there, anyway?Once everyone started complaining, free or very cheap drivers should have been immediately whipped upUm, why should I care about a minor issue affecting a few phone geeks?Vote

[Fernando @ Jan 23rd 2008 9:49AM]

Oooh Oooh my iPhone has no video issues. There take that! LOLOLOL

[Mobius_1 @ Jan 23rd 2008 9:55AM]

First post of any phone-related article is bound to concern the "savior" iPhone in one way or another

[kal326 @ Jan 23rd 2008 9:58AM]

Yeah, but if it did you would be asked to pay out $20 to the Big Blue Apple for the luxury of a new enhanced video experience with dramatic and life like multimedia jackassery....

Seriously though, how hard is it to release a update with the driver? Some devices from HTC got upgrade to WM6 for free, but they can't roll a new rom with a driver that makes existing hardware work better? Dirty pool HTC and that's why I haven't gotten a Tilt yet. Fix said issue and we'll talk.

[Fernando @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:20AM]

Yes iPhone is the God of all phones! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Now to pay $100 for the next update from apple, I love it. How else am I suppose to bounce back the economy? On a serious not though, HTC phones and WM6 is junk. Talk about cluncky UI on an overpowered and huge phone that has crap battery life. Oh wait my 8925 has GPS oh yeah did I forget to mention that cable sticking out the back of it in order for it to function?

[JerryA @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:24AM]

Also no keyboard, wifi, 3g, flash, skins, or 3rd party addons, but you don't see anyone mentioning that in an article about HTC do you? ;)

[Benson Leung @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:42AM]

Kal, for the record, all iPhone updates have been free software updates. Check your facts. The iPod Touch is a different story of course.

[Jack Storm @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:46AM]

Voice your opinion directly to them, as i did:

http://member.htc.com/CustomerService/CS_Mail.aspx

Tell them how wrong they are, and how stupid they sound. Its not like its going to cost them a million dollars to release this. It'll probably in the end make them more money and look better with their customer base.

[MED @ Jan 24th 2008 2:16AM]

well it does have video issues if you consider the fact your not actually able to take a video like $100 phones can.

[quxjox @ Jan 24th 2008 3:24AM]

DOESN'T PLAY VIDEO???
U guys kidding me??My Sony Ericsson P990 had HUGE problems.For starters,the hardware was not sufficient to handle the faulty software.The phone used to reboot everyday sometimes during a call.The camera makes out of focus pictures.The alarm never worked well...i even had 3-4 sleepless nights due to that.The sound is not audible enough when playing music/video.There is no way to close an application.
At any given time the total free ram is less than 10 mb(for a smartphone)...meaning you can never browse and listen to music at the same time(either one of the application closes or the phone reboots).
And we paid us$ 750 for this brick.Then later thay said they are stopping support for the device (about a year after launch)by stopping firmware updates.

And when we complained(well HTC said our future products have these things...but wait to see what SE said)SE officially said (something like this)...WE find the product with current firmware very satisfactory to use and if you don't like it,BUY our new phone P1i which has many of these issues sorted out.
We got this official word when hundreds of P990,M600 and W950 users complained at the SE dev forum.
WE even distributed flyers at a famous mobile phone show in europe last year but SE simply turned a blind eye.


Am surprised that due to video playback problems,(engadget made a news entry,but never made a news entry for out p990 problems)HTC owners are planning a lawsuit...

My P990 was the biggest mistake i ever made with my money.Will never forgive SE for this.

[Dave @ Jan 24th 2008 10:52PM]

anyone that wants to complain DIRECTLY to HTC can now feel free, courtesy of disgruntled HTC owners with the MSM 7200 and 7500 chipsets:

Email Addresses here u go!

[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail]

Maybe now they will listen.

[paragraph @ Jan 23rd 2008 9:54AM]

Well, the drivers should have be shipped on the damn thing if that was the idea... if not, the drivers should have been made available.

Suggesting they get a newer phone isn't a solution...

[bob @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:46AM]

this guy doesnt really know what he is talking about, why just make stuff up? is it to look cool, the iphone has a good battery for a do-all device and it has the smoothest ui on the market, hate apple products if you dont like using them but dont look like a fool making stuff up on the internet.

[bob @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:47AM]

oh yes, and you dont pay for iphone updates or appletv updates as the way they are accounted over 18 month period, unlike the ipod touch, so i guess you are wrong about that too, better luck on the next fud post.

[E71 @ Jan 23rd 2008 3:49PM]

@bob:

The TyTN II has GPS, 3G, HSDPA, HSUPA, secondary camera and it's a proper PDA (easy to extend its functionality with software). It's clearly the choice for those looking for more features than those of an iPhone.

I'll give the iPhone some credit though as its software operates a lot smoother (probably because the same manufacturer designs both hardware and software) and it has the friendliest UI to date.

They're just built for different types of consumers. The TyTN II for the more Business (Heavy Duty)/Pleasure folk and the iPhone for the (hip?) casual phone users.

A few quick tip about this controversy: It is not about playing high res video, it's about the TyTN II (and other models) performing worse than their predecessors and that HTC falsely advertising video accelerating via their press release.

I'm totally ready to donate towards the possible lawsuit and I'm sure a lot of the xda-developers community members who pledged towards the $4000 bounty are also willing to use their pledged for this purpose.

[IraqiGeek @ Jan 23rd 2008 9:56AM]

I don't think anyone has any right to complain here. Nor does HTC have any obligation to put together any such drivers for those devices. They never advertised the ATI Imageon hardware in their features or specifications list to begin with. Just because the hardware is there doesn't imply that it's being used in the device.

[lmjabreu @ Jan 23rd 2008 9:59AM]

The people who bought the device PAYED for that ATI Imageon chip, they have the right to be able to use it.

[drakono @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:03AM]

Sure it does. It might make sense for manufacturers of individual chips (like CPUs) to include features that they can disable and sell as low-end models. But to include a chip on a circuit board and not use it is ludicrous. Even if they don't want to redesign the board, they can usually just leave out the chip if it won't be used on a given model. Chips cost money, and no company would overlook such a simple way of reducing their costs, especially if it doesn't mean a price-drop (i.e., all that saved money goes straight to their profit).

[derX @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:07AM]

I completely understand what you're saying: it wasn't advertised, so, as far as they're concerned, it never did nor will it ever exist on the devices.

Here, Dave from the linked EngadgetMobile articulated the issue:
"Sorry, when it takes my screen LITERALLY 1.5 seconds to switch from horizontal to landscape when i open the keyboard, there is DEFINITELY something wrong with the video drivers. HTC is making this sound like all we are bitching about is ATI Imageon support, but what we want is a directdraw fix so our displays dont suck ass."

[kjb434 @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:24AM]

I agree with IraqiGeek on this one.

Anyone who buys a new car but it is not loaded has fallen into the same situation. All base model cars are completely wired and ready to go for the more expensive equipment. Especially cars now with completely computer based electronic systems.

[Dave @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:30AM]

@kjb434...
that reasoning is completely flawed. If you owned this phone you would realize that a good analogy would be like buying a car and then finding out the tires are flat and cant be inflated or replaced. Sure, you can still drive the car, but not very far at all.

[josh @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:28AM]

I don't understand why the parent comment was graded down; it was pretty spot on and not horribly inflamatory even if it did say something people don't want to hear. If they don't advertise a feature, if they don't try to sell that feature, they aren't liable for not including it. The chipsets used by most iPods support hardware WMA decoding, should apple have provided WMA support? I don't think anyone could successfully argue that.

Most companies by existing chipsets that provide the majority of features that they hope for at the lowest price. If it includes features they don't intend to use they don't go and ask for a custom setup from the chip provider, nor do they typically go back and rework the design docs for the product they are making. They just don't use the features they don't want.

There are a couple considerations that the average gadget head here isn't considering. First, WM is not exactly the same thing as the desktop windows. THey can't just put a driver up for download and have everything work. They are going to need to push out a new OS with the driver baked in, via image update, which isn't exactly practical. Further, maybe there is a damn good reason they didn't enable it this round. THe battery life of the touch isn't exactly amazing without the support for the chip; enabling full use of the video chipset is likely to eat up all that much more power. Considering it is ATI, maybe the WM reference drivers provided either suck or don't exist, which would require HTC, who isn't exactly in the video driver writing market, to create the drivers.

[fyreblazer @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:30AM]

Bullshit @ Dave

This is like a car being advertised as ipod compatible, but they don't provide the ipod. The car works just fine, but all you can listen to is the radio or CD player.

I'm done with this whole thing. At first I cared, but all this whining has soured my views on this and my Kaiser works just fine for me. Just waiting on WM 6.1 now. Back to XDA.

[Chris S. @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:39AM]

"They are going to need to push out a new OS with the driver baked in, via image update, which isn't exactly practical. Further, maybe there is a damn good reason they didn't enable it this round. THe battery life of the touch isn't exactly amazing without the support for the chip; enabling full use of the video chipset is likely to eat up all that much more power."

HTC releases new ROMs yearly, so that isn't an issue, and is, by ALL means, "practical." And, as far as battery life, the dedicated chip would require less energy because the main processor would not have to work as hard as a specialized piece of electronics would. You have a point that maybe there's a good reason, but where is that reason?

[Todd @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:48AM]

I've got to side with IraqiGeek, too. While providing the drivers after the fact definitely would earn HTC some (apparently much needed) good will, I don't think it's a crime that the drivers aren't there. This is certainly not an offense worth suing over.

Furthermore, phones can be demoed before buying. If you were so impulsive that you bought the phone before ever trying one in a store, you have to accept the risk that you might not like the phone. Caveat emptor.

[NuShrike @ Jan 23rd 2008 2:14PM]

fyreblazer: BS! Then you're saying it's okay to ship Vista without Nvidia drivers, getting the latest dual core/8800GT sweetness that only runs in safe mode, or going back to PIO mode for our hard drives instead of DMA.

[greatheart2 @ Jan 23rd 2008 5:47PM]

You see IraqGeek here in America we have the right to EXPECT AND DEMAND THAT A PRODUCT WORKS PROPERLY. ITS CALLED "FAIR BUSINESS PRACTICES" & "DOING BUSINESS IN A GODLY WAY" .. TRY TO GET USE TO THE NEW FOUND FREEDOMS YOU HAVE NOW THAT WE HAVE LIBERATED YOU!

[Josh Girvin @ Jan 23rd 2008 5:41PM]

http://www.htcclassaction.org/misadvertising.php

We were jibbed. Bastards.

[lmjabreu @ Jan 23rd 2008 9:56AM]

Humm, they always do this kind of crap, my HTC Trinity has crappy touchscreen drivers(I believe Hermes has the same problem), if you tap the screen continuously the cpu usage rises up to 43% or something, noticeable in 3d-intensive games.

HTC couldn't care less about the quality of their roms/drivers, they'll sell well anyways.

[Shawn @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:01AM]

All I can say is that when a phone company starts telling me that I should "upgrade to future products in order to take advantage of..." something that should have been offered in the first place, I quit. Let them go bankrupt if that's the way they want to play...

[Chris S. @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:30AM]

Sorry, IraqiGeek. You don't know the issue at hand. From HTC's TyTN II product page:

"Communicating on the go is easier than ever with an innovative, ergonomic LCD design that positions the touch screen perfectly for reading and creating e-mails, using applications, or even just playing games."

Read that last little bit. I think you need to research before you comment.

[Chris S. @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:31AM]

http://www.htc.com/product/03-product_tytn_II.htm

[Dave @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:42AM]

IraqiGeek:

Since you don't own a Tilt or a Polaris, I don't really think you have any sort of credibility with regards to weighing in on this issue. If you owned a TyTn II or Polaris you would realize that we as owners ARE NOT BITCHING ABOUT THE ATI IMAGEON drivers! We are bitching about the LACK OF DIRECTDRAW DRIVERS that make these phones come to a screeching halt. HTC has just decided to run with the ATI Imageon story because they feel it is their best chance at damage control and making us, the consumers, look like whiney kids that want to play 3d games on our devices, which is NOT THE CASE.

[Moco Binson @ Jan 23rd 2008 12:30PM]

IraqiGeek, you want to talk "promises"? How about GPS capability and the fact that the same drivers deteriorate TomTom performance and even basic file browsing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIJWAu6IRe4

Stop making it look like this is a problem only kids who want to play games experience. As a graphic designer I used to use a number of graphics apps (VS Painter etc) for quick doodles on the go, all without a hitch on my Eten M600. I also preferred using Picsel browser for my day to day browsing. Yes,once in awhile I'd want to fire up a "designed for windows mobile" game like Skyforce. NONE OF THEM runs as they should (ie: optimally) on the Tilt. When people have shelled out more than 500 to 700 dollars for a product you advertise as running on an advanced chip capable of all these things and fail to implement them you owe your loyal customer-base an explanation. By pushing and touting the graphics and communications capabilities of the Q chip they IMPLIED that these new devices were capable of all this and as such was the reason many of us bought them. By your same argument they should then have listed in the spec-sheet that the drivers were being omitted so customers could have made an informed purchase decision. This was a classic bait-and-switch. As far as I'm concerned I hope Eten is listening. Eten, your devices are beautiful...just up the RAM to 128MB and you have a loyal user. I'm done with HTC.

[IraqiGeek @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:16AM]

That's a different issue. I have a Hermes, and know what you are talking about.

Do I want a better graphics driver? Sure I do. But I don't think anyone has the right to complain about the lack of drivers for the Imageon hardware. The complaints about performance in games and the like are simply wrong. HTC never advertised the devices in question as anything but business oriented devices.

If HTC had advertised any media/gaming capabilities in any of the devices in question, than yes they should have made those drivers to begin with. But they just didn't.

[KnightRider @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:08AM]

I am an enthusiastic first buyer of Tytn II (ATT Tilt), and VERY disappointed would be a mild word to describe my experience with it. You cant record video properly (only ghosts), pictures suck (because of slow rendering), cant play videos at a good resolution, and it is pretty sluggish generally.

Because of this experience, I will never buy/recommend HTC phones to anybody (I get a lot of 'what should I buy' questions from friends and colleagues).

Thank you engadget for this publicity. FU HTC.

[kjb434 @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:27AM]

I wonder if you really have the the TyneII.

I have one and the camera and video capabilities are awesome.

I don't see everyone trying to sue Apple because they released the iphone with more barricades to its full potential. Many phones the first started including GPS circuitry didn't allow the user to use it. It was only there for the carriers to locate the phone.

[Chris S. @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:35AM]

@ kjb434

"I have one and the camera and video capabilities are awesome."

Are you serious? Dude, I average 2.3 FPS for regular photo shots in any light other than direct sunlight. What type of phone do you possess, because it obviously isn't an HTC TyTN II.

Try editing your registry on the phone,
HKLM\Software\HTC\Camera\Common
and set EnableFrameRateInfo to '1'

...Are you serious, kjb434?

[Dave @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:42AM]

ya kjb434 is obviously either a fanboy or an HTC troll because the camera in the TyTn II sucks major ass...takes literally 3 seconds from the time you press the camera button to focus and actually take a picture...

[Chris S. @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:59AM]

Hey, Dave, try these tips:

HKLM\Software\HTC\Camera\Captparam
Change CapKeyDelayTime to desired time (in miliseconds)
Change EnableCapKeyDelay to '0'

If running the Q-Mobile ROM, you shouldn't have to edit those. Other ROMs may require you to.

[PSM @ Jan 24th 2008 2:15AM]

HTC has obviously missed the point -- this is not about people who expect to watch HD movies like they're sitting at home in their home theatre. This is about the fact that switching screen orientation, taking a picture, and just generally navigating around the UI takes forever. This has nothing to do with being a media player. The lack of drivers makes every function of the phone more difficult to use.

[Jeff @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:10AM]

Htc fix this issue already....Do right by the consumers who have spent their hard earned bucks on your product. My best friend has a Tilt with PointUI on it and it sux. I have a Hermes with PointUI and its awesome. I just got my W2 and was thinking about droppin some cash on the Tilt but after this fiasco...I'm holding off.

[Jason Stewart @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:11AM]

My first question would be why did they not include drivers for the ATI chip? Were they trying to extend battery life? Would it adversely affect the operation of the device (make things slower, etc.)?

Or is it 'cause they wanted to market the graphics feature for a more expensive upgrade unit, but still use the same hardware - thus saving some money and bilking the loyal customer base.

If the former, I don't have THAT big of a problem with their decision (although they could still offer the driver with caveats).

If the latter, man that would be messed up! That's the kind of crap that made me stop buying I-Mate stuff.

[Dan @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:19AM]

Hooray capitalism!

The price of a product is what the market is willing to support. If HTC can charge X for a phone with lower graphics functionality and X + Y for a phone with better graphics, and the market willingly pays it, the market is working as it should.

It seems to me that this functionality wasn't advertised as being part of the price. The consumer struck a deal with HTC to pay for a product with certain features. Now the consumer finds that a feature it may have thought was included (in reality it seems to me a bunch of people figured out this functionality was missing only after the fact and didn't actually purchase the phone with the expectation of advanced graphics) was not included in the purchase price. Tough. HTC didn't hide anything from you.

Should they be nice and give the drivers? Yea. Is that how a capitalistic economy/society works? Heck no! This is what drives innovation and improvement. HTC will lose a lot of loyal customers when another company comes along and builds a better mousetrap -- a similar phone with lower price and the better graphics.

Caveat Emptor!

[An_asshole @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:45AM]

That's just it, they DID advertise the unit as utilizing the Qualcomm MSM 7200 series chipset. One of the publicized features of this chipset is hardware video rendering. So yes, they absofuckinglutely did "promise" that it would contain this functionality. The phone has a hardware video accelerator chip that is crippled by the lack of a driver. A reasonable person when purchasing an item of this nature would reasonably assume software support for *all* advertised hardware. What if they put a camera in the phone but omitted the drivers and software for it? Caveat emptor huh? How's about "false advertising"?

Furthermore, issue is not just "playing video" in the sense of playing a pre-rendered avi or whatever. The issue is that there is no directdraw video driver for *rendering video.* This has an effect every single time a pixel drawn to the screen. The CPU has to do all the damn work rather than offloading it onto the specialized video rendering chip that is sitting right there waiting to be used. For simple operations the CPU is more than enough to render so it isn't as noticable (except that it eats into battery life.) Have you ever used your PC in 640x480 mode without a video driver installed? That's exactly what this is like.

A good way to see the problem is to try to use the camera on the Tilt. The viewfinder is a slideshow, mine has literally 1000ms lag between frames. The viewfinder on my old Blackjack? Smooth as silk. This is a shame because the camera on the tilt takes nice photos, but it is essentially unusable because the viewfinder is so slow.

In short, this isn't just about playing "high resolution" videos (who the fuck considers 320x240 to be "high resolution"?) on the device, this is about rendering pixels to the screen of the device, regardless of the source. It affects the UI, the camera, battery life, and yes, playing video files.

[Dan @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:33AM]

@An_asshole

Where exactly is the false advertising? HTC advertised that their phone came with chip X. You then went out and found a document published by someone else that said "hey, chip X can do hardware acceleration." Then you assume (ass out of u and me) that because chip X can hardware accelerate the phone HTC is advertising must hardware accelerate. You don't bother to do any research or ask anyone, you just assume based on a third party document that the first party product must perform in exactly the same was as the third party document says it should. In my book that isn't very smart.

In fact, did HTC even advertise the hardware acceleration portion of the chip or just the general chipset? Answer: general chipset and not the specific portion.

No, not all reasonable people would assume this functionality because 95% of the population doesn't have a clue what kind of chip is inside their phone to start with, let alone the chipset and extended functionality.

HTC never told you that you were getting hardware acceleration, in fact they never even implied it, you assumed it and your assumption was wrong. Tough. Next time, ask.

And honestly why is this even an issue on a "high level" tech blog like Engadget? We all know how often electronics companies cripple a device that could run faster/do more/whatever in order to segment the market and make more money. Again, while that is a bad PR move and maybe not the best for your company in the long run, it is capitalism.

As I said in another post on here, if it is so bad that it is like running a 640x480 monitor, why didn't you discover this in testing out the device or during your first 30 days of ownership? You had every opportunity to return a device that clearly does not meet your personal expectations.

[Geir L K @ Jan 28th 2008 11:46AM]

Hi Jason

it's quite common today that several functions are baked into one chip, like the MSM7x00 series. But often you have to buy a license to use the different functions. So that when HTC bought the chip and licenses for the MSM7x00 chips, it doesn't surprise me that they didn't buy the right to use the Ati Imageon functions in it.

But still, this has nothing to do with video drivers as such, but with the DirectDraw capabilities. I've been testing different WM based phones for the better part of 1 1/2 years now. And I can tell you, the TyTN II renders and updates the picture slower than my grandma with arthrities can draw! It's in a _big_ way a productivity killer.

[Chris S. @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:12AM]

Stop thinking this is just about VIDEO PLAYBACK. It's about the overall responsiveness of the unit. Think having an ATi card in your PC, but using the Intel Integrated Drivers. Yeah, it's THAT bad.

[Kizorblade @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:55AM]

You forgot to mention trying to play Crysis with it

[SimbaDogg @ Jan 23rd 2008 12:30PM]

That is seriously the best analogy that has been used thus far. I've taken business law classes, and to be honest, you simply can't imply that a product is better than a previous one, support that implication by showing that it has a much better chipset to power it - and then here's the final thing, make it SLOWER than its predecessor because you're using a crappy driver/none @ all. You're basically building up a product, and baiting the customer to make a switch to the upgrade, when in all reality in terms of performance, its a downgrade. I'm going to contact my business law professor today and ask him how solid the case would be because he's done quite a few of torts and consumer class action suits. Jesus shit with the people on this board, i dont know why anyone would support a big company anyways. But seriously looks @ the VERY FIRST PARAGRAPH on their page describing their product

"More powerful than any mobile communications device you've seen before, the HTC TyTN II takes global connectivity to the next level."

If i see that i'm expecting a huge upgrade over my old HTC Kaiser which is 2 generations old. And if you just look at the language use, theres no assumptions being made, so dont even think about saying that. They are CLEARLY saying its more powerful than any mobile handset on the market, and if its not more powerful than a device thats 2 generations old because they're intentionally crippling it, thats a HUGE problem

[Witch-King @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:12AM]

In my case, I just sold my AT&T Tilt (fortunately for what I paid) and purchased an iPhone instead. I grew very weary of the crappy performance of the Tilt (i.e. HTC Kaiser) with it's consistently low FPS, frequent screen lock-ups, etc. I truly expected a LOT more from a phone that was supposed to be the holy Mecca of Windows Mobile devices.