We've always had a soft spot for Sony CEO Sir Howard Stringer, and it sounds like the old man's doing more than
cajoling Tom Hanks into telling jokes following his
consolidation of power: in a lengthy and illuminating interview with Nikkei Electronics Asia, Sir Howard pledged that Sony would use more open standards in the future, saying "If we had gone with open technology from the start, I think we probably would have beaten Apple" in the music market. That's a pretty bold statement to be making in hindsight -- especially since we're pretty sure the Connect Player and SonicStage would have still driven people screaming into the arms of iTunes -- but it's pretty heartwarming to hear from the head of a company just as famous for an endless array of funky proprietary standards as it is the Walkman. You want to make us feel even warmer and fuzzier, Howie? "We can no longer say that we're right and our customers are wrong. We can't build only what we want to build." Wow -- sounds like the start of a whole new Sony. We'll see if Sir Howard can actually pull off what sounds like a major change in his company's culture, but for right now we'd recommend hitting the read link and taking in the whole interview, cause it's a good one.
posted May 11th 2009 1:52PM
Oh no he ditn't!
He is correct though, sony was ahead of apple for a very longtime in the portable music industry and even to this day there walkman music Quality shit over any ipod on the market
Apple was smarter though with ipod they made it hip and accept kinda all kind of files for music (mostly mp3)
Sony was using stupid programs and stuff at the time and wouldnt let you copy your mp3 to your walkman
If Sony was successful the Apple would be considered the "Bargain" brand in comparison. The world is much better off when Sony fails.
Yea Engadget!!! Change this headline at once - the is a classic CE-OH-NO-HE-DIDNT!!!! (love that series!)
If he considers Apple and the Ipod open technology, that's more proof Sony people is just crazy. Apple had a great propietary product that sold dramatically well, and has forced people into apple standards, using quicktime and itunes DRM AAC but ANY player that didn't want to use mp3 would be to crazy to even try to sell, as Sony leaned.
I never thought I'd live to see the day Sony gave a shit about their customers. Maybe the end times ARE upon us!
Coulda shoulda...
Sony's always been a great gadget company. Stuff they've miniturized has always had a great o-wow factor. It'll be interesting to see if they've learned anything and can apply this going forward.
Things that could have benefited from being more open:
El-casette
Betamax
ATRAC
MD
Memorystick
They need to be more willing to license out technologies in order to establish a "standard" and market to people based on their brand recognition much like what they've done in the TV market.
@RidgeRacer
he meant more open, not open source.
If you take a step back, its surprising that Sony isn't leading the portable music market. Walkmen were ubiquitous, and it would have been as easy as "This is a iWalkman, it plays mp3s from your computer"
Ridgecity!
iPod uses open technologies like
1) MP3
2) WAV
3) AIFF
4) AAC (MPEG4 audio)
5) MPEG4 Part 2 for video
6) MPEG4 -Part10 (aka H.264) for video
The only proprietary technologies they use in addition to this are
1) DRM'd AAC
2) DRM'd MPEG-4 Part 10
3) Apple Lossless
The music sold through the iTunes store now is plain AAC.
So, before you start saying everything is proprietary, get your facts.
some of us may be too young to remember, but the world was, in fact, better when sony was successful. they made really great quality products, which had all the latest and most convenient features-- like auto-track search for tape decks-- at prices that were relatively modest against the european brands'. it's not just the walkman, either--they gave us portable radio, before most of us were even born, and the cd player. the consumer came first. their downfall came from the obsession with protecting their own music and movies, which they decided they needed after the fall of betamax. the result? they're still building encryption into their voice recorders, even. i assume this is to stop you recording a sony artist at a live show, but it's absurd when the primary use is recording, duh, your own voice. most people hate their own voices.
as for apple, it's fun watching them repeat so many of sony's mistakes. such arrogance...
@ Urkel
Wrong. The world is much better when Microsoft fails. Their tactics are SO wrong, making people think that it has to be hard to run a computer and keep it running smoothly for years...Apple happens to be changing everyone's views on that however. ;-)
Nobody has crystal ball.
It is useless to say if I would have bla bla bla.
How about ask yourself why I wouldn't have?
@siva
Don't forget the extortion chips: http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/16/apple-confirms-presence-of-proprietary-chip-in-shuffle-headphone/
Wanna bet the next gen iPods and iPhones will require this as well?
"The music sold through the iTunes store now is plain AAC."
That's right, now. They already own the market and can do whatever they want, The didn't allow any other player to work with itunes so even now that everything is open, you still can't use itunes with other brands... I own an ipod since day one, but you gotta accept what has happened, at least I have seen the limitations of only being able to use quicktime for everything video.
MP3 and SDHC (and soonish, SDXC) are your friends, Sony.
Not ATRAC and Memory Stick Duo Platinum eXtreme or whatever.
well shit ill have to see if i can return my Stick Duo Platinum eXtreme Pro Trio
Does this imply that with M2 going the way of MicroSDHC in the coming years, Sony won't be cooking up an 'M3' to compete with the (as yet unfounded but logical) 'MicroSDXC' future mobile standard?
Huzzah!
100% agreed. The combination of proprietary audio and removable media was Sony's bane. Just two of the many missteps that caused me to avoid them as an option.
don't forget OGG and FLAC :)
'A leopard doesn't lose its spots', is something to keep in mind at such junctures.
@From My Cube: You ACTUALLY got one of those useless things?
Jerry Springers alter ego
and that is the reason why sony lost the format war
bluray is dead
Considering sales are up in a recession says otherwise.
Keep trying though.
I don't see what you did there... =/
I hope you were being sarcastic, that or your still waiting for the Davinci Code to be released on HDDVD
It was clearly a joke...
@s0dOlS
....as are your hopes of losing your virginity, sir.
apple is open? he got it totally wrong.
How is AAC not open?
No, he means that Apple have fucking geniuses working in their design department (the ones Sony should have but lost in the late 90's) and the only way to beat such a fucking amazingly excellent company is to attack their achilles' heel, which is that Apple is more locked down than my neighbour's garden gnomes.
Sony used to get it, but when they bought into Hollywood, they became like my GF's sexy sister, so sweet but so out of reach. The minidisc... oh jeez. Great, great piece of kit in its day but running some confused proprietary format that made it useless. Every Sony "mp3" player I every bought insisted on doing its SonicStage dance of death... (microwave the little buggers, they explode real nice).
They could have been the IBM of consumer equipment but instead they are the GE.
ph, this article is about the music selling business. Apple uses AAC which is an open standard. That's what he's talking about. There is no "locked down".
Yea, referring to the audio format that is currently used, the old AAC used a proprietary drm technology.
(still not that great requiring a proprietary software to sync with their devices, but everyone already knows that).
AAC is an open codec. The DRM the labels originally forced them to put on the tracks is not.
ph: Excellent similes there. Also Walkmans have been great for a while now - zero software, the best hardware.
You said it right there - the labels forced them to put DRM on the tracks. Does anybody here honestly believe Sony would have sold their own music DRM free? If so, I have a bridge to sell you. Furthermore, Sony is only one out of four major labels, and Sony wouldn't be able to sell the other three labels' music DRM free so what would be the point?
Apple's format was open, which is specifically what Stringer was referring to, not DRM.
If the labels forced Apple to put on DRM why didn't they force Amazon and others to follow those same standards?
@bjsguess
Because Apple made a deal with them several years before Amazon/etc. When Amazon was making the deal, labels already got the point that P2P is unstoppable and DRM's easily removable.
If you want to compare iTMS, compare it with PlaysForSure. Apple at least negotiated that DRM doesn't need license refresh, while the PlaysForSure required you time after time (and more often then expected) to plug your player into Internet-connected computer.
bjsguess - Because Amazon has always had variable pricing, and Apple hasn't until recently. Amazon has always charged more than $.99 per song for popular songs, and more than $10/album for popular albums. That is specifically what the labels wanted.
AAC is an open format, but Apple's just about the only one that really uses it. MP3/OGG/FLAC FTW!
I would love to see Sony adopt more consumer-friendly practices with regards to format choices and giving users more control over how they use their devices. They're a huge player in the industry and they have some real stunning devices, not to mention the breadth and depth of their product lines, they have the opportunity to connect all of their products and really create a great experience for the user. They've just been so stubborn for such a long time, it's hard to imagine them changing their ways, but if they did they have the potential to really compete with Apple in the future.
well said. I think you are exactly right in calling Sony 'stubborn'.
They do make some great looking stuff, but they seem to show a lack of caring when it comes to the consumers and the usability of their products. I think thats a reason why people are so in love with Apple.
It's not just in the music format as far as 'open' vs 'closed', but it's Sony's view on everything they do. Memory Sticks? UMD's? even minidisc (which i happened to love) are horrible proprietary formats.
don't even get started on sonic stage. that thing is so terribly awful. its probably the main reason why i refuse to buy any media player that won't work as a flash drive to upload music...
i feel like Sony has been snobbishly looking down on us consumers for a long time. Maybe if they took the time to see what it is they are stepping on, they could come out with some great stuff. They are the only ones holding them back.
I don't know if they're snobbish or just don't have the right people assigned to user experience. I have many Sony products, hardware awesome, software not so much. Bought the ebook reader which is just great, and that's despite the really annoying software you have to use on PC to purchase books for it. Don't even start me on Vaio utilities and drivers....
Uh huh, sure, because Apple really gives a damn about their customers.
Except with the ipod:
You can't change your own battery (without voiding the warranty)
You can't replace one of their easily broken screens (without voiding the warranty)
You can't use OGG or FLAC without converting it to the ipod standard
If you're stupid enough to buy your music through itunes, you can't take it with you when it comes time to buy a real MP3 player.
You only can use Itunes to organize your music. So that would make Apple, oh what's the word all you people are using... PROPRIETARY.
And as for those POS Apple computers:
You can't upgrade your memory.
You can't upgrade your hard drive.
You can't upgrade your graphics card.
In fact, you can't frigging upgrade anything, not without complete voiding the warranty and in many cases having to actually snap off bits of your computer to gain access to parts those wonderful, caring Apple technicians worked so hard to lock up from their consumers. To paraphrase Steve Jobs, that cheap huckster, if you want better performance, your only choice is to 'buy another.'
Yeah, Apple is a company that really cares. Unlike Sony, which has consistently released outstanding electronics for decades and - but oh no, they have a memory stick. They must be evil.
It's going to be hard to change decades of a certain way of doing things.
I think "Change or get fired" can be incentive enough.
I think a more appropriate quote would be, "change or go into bankruptcy protection" has a better ring.
Here, let me go back in time and fix Sony's music problem.
1. Buy Napster for $250 million.
2. Use MP3 format, multiple bitrate options, no DRM.
3. Use Napster as distribution tool. Add in function to link up to media players (non-proprietary function, open to all players).
If they followed those three steps, Apple would likely be out of business at this point (no iPod = no cash reserve = no way to fix their failing Mac line)
Just another knot in the string of Sony's failures. Next up: Blu-ray.
Apple had many billions in cash before the iPod came out. Nice try though.
I'm afraid you're a bit off. Apple had huge cash reserves BEFORE the iPod. Considering that they really started turning their computer business around with the release of OS X, well...
Sure, without the success of the iPod they would not be as profitable today, and would not have as much market share as they do (small as it might be).
But the iPod did not save Apple.
Well said, but Blu-ray will not be a failure. It is already being adopted into laptops and players are slowly starting to lower in price (read:slowly).
I can't say I use either service. Rather choose amazon over the two.
@UnixSysEng -- The Apple brand had a very small established user base, but the iPod saved the company from the investors dropping out. Honestly, the iPod was the best thing that could've happened to Apple. It actually grew the dwindling Apple users and allowed them to reinvent themselves from the company that created quirky electronics to "sleek designs and UI's".
I'm rather sure they would've gone under by now if it weren't for the iPod.
scythe - what part of "Apple had billions in cash before the iPod came out" don't you understand? Is it the billions part? The iPod didn't "save" jack squat, just like Microsoft didn't "save" Apple by buying 150 million in stock. 150 million was laughable compared to the multiple BILLIONS Apple had in CASH at the time.
Get a clue plz, thx.
@Zak Might I suggest reading starting from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer#1986.E2.80.931993:_Rise_and_fall
The iMac is what initially set Apple down the path back to prosperity, not the iPod.
I don't care how much money Apple supposedly had in cash reserves, if it wasn't for the iPod, they would have burned through all of that just trying to convince people that Apple wasn't dead. The iPod single-handedly saved Apple. Yes, the iMac and OS X were released slightly ahead of the iPod, but without the iPod, nobody would have payed any attention to them. Apple's products would still have been "the alternative choice for artists and weirdos". The iPod made it ok for "normal" people to look at Apple again.
So as I said before, if someone (in this case Sony) had launched a successful music distribution platform, and either their own portable device or an open platform for others, there would be no iTunes, no iPod, and after Apple burned through all of their cash reserves, no Apple.
scythe : Apple didn't have billions in the bank prior to the iPod....only in fanboi dreams it had it. Apple's cash reserves allowed it breathing room and lets be blunt. People didn't start buying Mac in mass until the iPod hit. That isn't speculation that is an outright fact.
You're giving the iPod way too much credit for Apple's current success. Sure the iPod helped, but it wasn't a huge seller for many years, just incredibly famous. It was originally a Mac only mp3 player that interfaced with iTunes, created because most players at the time, especially Sony's garbage, were Windows only. PC support debut with the 2nd gen model when Apple realised it had invented a new cash cow, and at first was only through a very un-apple-like 3rd party utility. iTunes for Windows and the iTunes store were release the following year, 2003. At that time, Apple was already back on track with Mac sales.
The 2G came out 9 months after the first. You act like it took Apple a long time to get their act together.
The original iPod didn't sell a ton of copies (300,000 I think), but given the size of the mp3 player market at the time, it was still a huge number.
Scythe, hexydes, Jon Doe - you're all idiots. Scythe, your link did nothing to contradict what I said. Would you like to try again? hexydes, with over 3 billion in cash BEFORE the iPod came out, it's so unlikely as to be absolutely moronic to believe that Apple was about to die, go under or whatever you'd like to call it. You Apple haters really like to rewrite history to make it look like Apple was always on the brink of death, don't you?
Jon Doe - Yes they did have billions in cash before the iPod came out. And no, the iPod didn't cause people to buy more Macs all of a sudden. You're pulling that out of your ass, and you obviously don't know what a "fact" is. Revisionist history does not constitute a "fact".
x264 .MKV Support for the PS3 and Sony is back on the top.
seriously, i agree with that
MKV support would be so handy (if your PC is beefy enough TVersity work's quite well, 1080p can stutter though). But as MKV's main use is for Blu-Ray rip's I kinda understand why they wouldn't want to support the format. And no matter how much Stringer wants to change Sony I doubt even he would back a paly to have Their flagship console support playback of rips from their flagship disc format.
I would love to see this.
However, converting from MKV to mp4 (which PS3 does support) is just a remux, and a decent streaming server can do it on the fly even on a machine with a low processor (A P4 could easily handle an HD stream).
the dumb part is that you can just change the container to mp4 or whatever and it plays just fine, so the lack of mkv support doesn't stop anything, it just makes the process 5-10min more difficult
@deanb
You mean just like how they for years refused to support MP3's in their audio players and insisted that you convert your music to ATRAC? Look where that got them. So now they'll insist that you only play their DRM videos on their hardware. Right. Brilliant geniuses over there.
alex and deanb:
You're both off your rockers. PS3 already supports tons of formats. It just doesn't support MKV.
You can actually rip a Blu-ray, then stream the unmodified .m2ts files to the PS3 to view the rip. I know, I've done it.
@LS2LS7
I know it supports ton's of format's. An awesome amount.
The only MKV I've wanted to play is the recent Advent Children. I tried to stream it with TVersity, but it clugged out.
So I'm gonna have to leave my PC converting it tonight and hope it comes out okay.
As for ripping Blu-Rays theres not much point as I have the Blu-Ray's. Just Advent Children isn't out here yet. :(
Anywho I argued the point that MKV support, while nice to have, is never gonna happen.
@Josh I just tried your swap .mkv to .mp4, it don't work.
You're right, all I hear about at thanksgiving is how much it sucks that more devices don't have mkv and h.264 support.
While that support would be nice, it's not gonna help them sell machines to the general population.
It's impressive that someone at Sony seems to actually get it. For too long the video/music side of Sony has hamstrung innovation on the electronics side. There's a reason Sony loses money on TVs, PS3's, etc..
(Shakes fist in the air)
ATRAC!!!!!!!!!
Sounds so much like "8 Track!"
Alright Sony..... so now here's your chance to do it with video, man! GET IT FREAKING DONE ALREADY! The lack of .MKV support on the PS3 is one area you can begin with, for starters.
Lol - Sony is basically saying - awww shucks, if we weren't so damn greedy to begin with and didn't use proprietary shit, we probably would have beat apple! YA THINK? Sad it took this long for them to realize that. However, they have not learned. They are still peddling their memory stick crap.
Go figure!
Actually I kinda agree with him, If Sony had made some changes over the past 6 years things might have been different now.
My answer to that? No you wouldn't have.
1) "We can no longer say that we're right and our customers are wrong." Wow - there is so much wrong with that... Business School 101 - the customer is ALWAYS RIGHT. Geez Louise and you're honestly wondering why your non-TV products have been performing like crap?
2) Sony would still have been behind Apple because Apple didn't succeed because of DRM-free music, it succeeded through some of the best marketing ever conceived. Using open technologies would not have abated consumer angst against Sony since that wasn't Sony's major problem, as the vast majority of consumers don't even understand what major technology buzzwords mean. Sony's major problem was that it priced itself out of many people's homes - you think Apple had an open ecosystem? Even today, movies downloaded from iTunes are DRM protected and will only run in Quicktime, iTunes, Apple TV, and on the iPod/iPhone. Apple was about as closed as it got - which, incidentally, was why it succeeded, since if iTunes had failed right in the beginning, it would've been sealed off among the Mac world minority and within Apple's closed garden, which is why recording executives were willing to take that chance with Apple.
If this is Stringer's response then I've got a BAD feeling about Sony's future.
To be clear, I'm not admonishing open technology - TODAY, open technology is the way to go. But in the past, that's not what would have put you on top.
(damn the lack of an edit button)
I used to work as a game reviewer covering predominantly Sony PS2 (and PS1 before that) hardware and software, even when the PS3 was just a glimmer in Sony's eye I was jumping ship. The company is so screwed up internally that it wouldn't matter if the PS3 debuted as the best console ever, it was still going to be a slow road to victory. I got tons of dissenting opinions and outright ire but for me the writing was on the wall, and I'm glad I listened to my experience and gut. The company is going to fail, it is just a matter of when. Every sector has been monumentally flawed for some time now: building glass plants and CRT tube plants in the face of LCD/Plasma, PSP, Vaio, Memory stick in the face of SD/SDHC, Cell processor being as cryptic and tough to program for as possible, Linux (PS2/PS3), the me-too Walkman DAPs, and on and on. The ship is sinking and the only perceived Sony benefit, quality/reliability, is long gone as they source the same panels and parts as everyone else. The final days are coming even if they've finally seen the light on opening up.
I think that being more open would have helped, because Apple did a much better job of implementing its closed technology. They became open where it really counted, the biggest move they made was investing in turning itunes into a player that people would want to use regardless of whether they owned an ipod, then making it easily accessible. Once people became used to using itunes as a music player, buying an ipod to put music on didn't scare you with some new proprietary program that would convert your music. Sure, you could buy music from the itunes store, but you didn't need to - and itunes made it easy to rip your music from cds or use existing mp3 files. Then they were closed off enough to require people to continue using itunes with the ipod, and to keep putting that store in front of people. Of course, the marketing was a major boon there.
When I first started looking for an mp3 player I quickly passed on the Sony, too much crap to go through getting my existing music on and off the player. That's something any consumer can understand and one reason why sony mp3 players got fairly poor reviews. It's not like we're talking about using ogg vs aac here - although had sony taken that type of open attitude I would probably be using a walkman product.
@teasphere
I see your point, but PSP? A failure? The UMD is a failure, but the PSP with good marketing, could really help Sony. If they had released the PSP as THE gaming phone (maybe shrunk it down, increased the pixel pitch, removed UMD, added 32gigs internal storage and 3G), the iPhone wouldn't be considered a "platform".
To me PSP had alot of potential, they just screwed it up. I am still surprised how they managed to screw up the PlayStation name. Anyone will tell you that the PS2 was the god of consoles, but ps3 suffers a really hurt reputation.
This is good to hear :)
Here's to a better more open SONY :D
After being introduced several years ago, Sony is still building Playstations at a huge loss. Contrast that with Nintento. Stringer is on his way out. Under his watch, just about every business Sony has, is doing poorly. From gaming to media, to mobiles, to music, this guy hasnt produced much for Sony's shareholders. And for all those people complaning about the price of Apple's laptops, check out Sony's. At least Apple's are profitable. He'll resign soon.
Yup. Stringer has pretty much screwed up everything that he was in charge of at Sony.
That all happened BEFORE Stringer was hired to save the company, but it is amusing that he's only hasted its descent toward irrelevance. Maybe he should have stayed at CBS, eh?
Proprietary just sucks in general... At one time Memory Stick couldnt be created/sold unless it was under the Sony brand name... They sold, but it was such a headache to find them and find them cheap... Now they license it out to sandisk, kingston and everyone else...
But as for beating apple?? pff, yeah right... apple has some of the most brilliant minds for making things simple and sexy... Microsoft is another that needs to pick up the slack with the Zune... Need some type of xvid/ divx/.264 playback on their portable devices... Apple isnt going to change... Theyre a complete household name...
Microsoft already has support for H.264
Endless array of proprietary products is the sole reason I have blacklisted Sony in my book. It's a great company which makes very nice products, but an attitude to lock their customers into proprietary standards was just unacceptable. If what he says is true, then I am really looking forward to removing Sony from my blacklist of companies. Make me proud Sony! Here's your chance to win a customer for life.
I read the interview and I think Sony is going to continue its' long slow decline.
Stringer doesn't seem to have a real vision for Sony. He seems to be trying to use generic management ideas.
It's breathtaking to see how far Sony has already slid but the slide isn't over.
Well, Sony is great with innovative ideas...
However, it appears to me, that sometimes, they overload features or makes it too complicated for end-user/consumers to operate.
Another thing I admit that Apple does better is keeping consistence user interface and user experience.
Especially on iPod, except for the 3G with those 4 crazy buttons... I'm sure Apple notice it was a stupid move and falling out of their "Simple Wheel" design.
Sony should and MUST learn from this. Keep consistence UI and UE, even if you want to have proprietary format, always embrace the open source community.
Apple's iPod tried to push AAC and LossLess, however, they still made iPod available to play MP3, which eventually users all-over-the-world preferred iPod over any Sony Music Player...
"their "Simple Wheel" design."
You mean the design that they pay Creative to use?
Learn from your mistakes! Sony can also try to integrate the MYLO experience into its next PSP.
myb something is cooking up in Sony's garage...
Sony had to start with ATRAC. The Minidisc player came out a long time ago, and MP3 was still under development.
But once they made a solid state player they should have switched to MP3.
They should have just opened ATRAC.
Sony will never win in this department as long as they are IP owners /and/ content playing personal electronics producers. Sony is constantly in conflict with itself. I think if they sold off their music/movie/IP and focused solely on making personal electronics they could survive in a big way.
Step one is admitting you are a dumb***. Step 2 is getting rid of the memory stick and going with an industry standard.
Apple was only MARGINALLY better than Sony. Both company's audio players required special software to load music onto their devices. Apple was just a LITTLE more flexible. I don't own an iPod because of this fact (OK, i have an iPhone but don't use it much as an mp3 player).
>> "Both company's audio players required special software to load music onto their devices."
But Apple's software also connected to their wildly popular iTunes Store... making it easy to buy new music and organize your existing music. So easy, in fact, that it became popular with non-techie people. It was 2003, and people were finally buying music when they were used to P2P.
I prefer to organize my own MP3s in folders... but I can't imagine trying to teach my parents that. iTunes makes it easy to organize your music and purchase new music.
"We can no longer say that we're right and our customers are wrong. We can't build only what we want to build."
Uhhh.... didn't this work for Apple?
So I guess Sony did something else wrong......
Yeah, this is what Apple pretty much does too, but it works for them. One of my favourite quotes about Apple:
"Apple is a company that makes products that pleases Steve Jobs, whether or not customers will want it. (See the Apple Cube) Fortunately for Apple, customers and Steve Jobs often want the same things."
The difference is that Apple has some pretty smart people making pretty smart decisions. Sony is run by suits.