The Engadget Interview: John MacFarlane, CEO of Sonos, Inc.
posted Dec 13th 2004 5:29PM
Veteran journalist J.D. Lasica interviewed John MacFarlane, CEO of Sonos, Inc., about the company's soon-to-be-released digital music system, the state of home entertainment, and how to throw a wireless party. Please give me the 30-second rundown on Sonos – what do you do, where are you located, when were you founded?
We're in Santa Barbara, Calif., and Cambridge, Mass. We've been going at this for a little more than two years now. We're a group of people with prior successful backgrounds who all enjoy music, and we all wanted a better way to experience music around the home.
How big is your staff?
We're a little north of 50 people.
The Sonos Digital Music System is your first product. Will it be out next month?
That's correct. We're racing to get our first product shipped by mid- to late January.
What does your system do?
The system is designed around someone who enjoys music in multiple locations in their home or their office.
So tell me about the components.
There's the handheld controller, which is a horizontal, 3.5-inch color LCD with a scroll wheel, which is your main
experience with the system as a user. Then there are units called ZonePlayers, which serve as very high-quality
two-channel amplifiers and computer networking. The ZonePlayers connect into your home speakers. Those units will pull
music off a PC, Macintosh or a Network Attached Storage, including an Internet radio stream. The controller aggregates
up a view of all your music by album, artist, genre or playlist and lets you navigate what you want to listen to and
where you want to listen to it.
Network Attached Storage is those dumb boxes, right? Yeah. It's basically the evolution of USB
storage to include an Ethernet connector. What's pushing that is digital photography - people have such a huge
accumulation of pictures and they need a place to store them.
Does your music system essentially replace the home stereo system?
Yes. We started from a different set of principles. If you were going to design an audio system for the next
generation of digital music, how would you do it? That's the approach we took.
The other viewpoint we took was, while some of us are technical people, all of us enjoy ease of use and not having to
think about technology. The aim was for a nontechnical person to be able to set up the system and enjoy it.
How do the ZonePlayers connect up to the system?
First, they work wirelessly over the wifi band. Very few people have structured Ethernet wiring. This allows you to
put the units where you want them to go, not where your networking is available. We built a mesh networking technology
on top of that, so you're not tethered to an access point. Basically, as long as each unit can see another unit,
they'll work together as a system.
Is this 802.11g?
It is 802.11g wave form. The mesh networking is something else, which we call Sonosnet.
I understand that the system can play music from multiple devices, not just off a computer.
There are a lot of features built in. There's a line-in on the back of each ZonePlayer, and you can plug a CD player,
MP3 player, or iPod or TV into it. There's an auto-sensing jack in the back so when you pop the RCA cables in, it will
pop up on your controller.
Just this weekend my brother brought his iPod over and we were playing music throughout the house on it.
When I interviewed Musicmatch founder Dennis Mudd last year, he said his main motivation for founding the
company was because he wanted to create the ultimate party CD. With a Sonos setup, sounds like anyone can bring a party
to your house.
Listening to your music when you're sitting at your PC is not most people's idea of musical enjoyment. So, yeah, you
bring your iPod over, plug it in and enjoy away. With some subscription services you can access the music on your
account and play it anywhere.
Did Sonos create the software, design the hardware and contract it out to factories in Asia to
build?
We designed the entire product: hardware, software, industrial design, mechanical. The manufacturing was done by a
super-high quality contractor in Taiwan - the same people who built the iPod.
Who are you targeting as your main customers?
If you're eight years or less out of college, this is a no-brainer to you because most of your music is in a digital
music library. So those people get the idea right away. Of course, that's generally not the sweet spot of homeowners
with a desire to listen to music in multiple zones. Our customers are people who are generally broadband connected,
have digital music, are music lovers. They're not technical but they'll often have more than 100 MP3s or digital
songs.
How are sales going?
It's too early to say. We have a healthy pre-order list but you never know until you're six months into sales what the
run rates are.
How much does this cost?
The most meaningful package for a first-time customer is our bundled package, which includes two ZonePlayers and one
controller for $1199.
Who are your main competitors in this space?
First, there are the companies that make digital media receivers, and I don't really view that as direct competition.
They include the Apple Airport Express, DLink, Linksys - a whole variety of folks make these gateways between the home
stereo and your computer. They don't include a controller, so with the Airport Express you run it through the iTunes
software on your PC or Mac. The Roku Soundbridge is another.
Second is the category of CEDIA or custom home installers like Escient, Fireball and Yamaha's MusicCast. They're
self-contained systems, but they're somewhat proprietary and very high end.
Fitting into this market, we saw that products like the Roku and Airport Express do a good job of bringing music into
one room. And you have the high-end hard-wired CEDIA types that do multi-room audio and are very expensive. An
installer places infrared eyes in each room and they home-run all the speaker cables to one spot in your house and put
this huge rack of gear there. If you wanted to get four rooms of music done by a custom installer, you are looking at
about $12,000 vs. $2,300 with our system.
So we're fitting in the middle of those two product categories. We're offering a product that is multiple room and at
a price point that's well below anything you can get from Yamaha, Escient or anybody else. Digital music and networking
allow just a really rich multi-zone experience. And our controller is the bread and butter that none of them offer. So
we're developing a new category called digital music systems.
Let's touch on rights management for a moment. What kinds of files will play on your system?
At release, it'll play MP3, WMA without the DRM, AAC without the DRM, WAV and a couple of other formats. Both Apple's
FairPlay and Microsoft's DRM aren't supported right out of the gate for us. Apple doesn't support its format with any
other vendors yet. Microsoft's DRM is centered around a handheld, not around a multi-zone approach.
What about if some kids at MIT wanted to tap into their dorm neighbors's ZonePlayers - could
they?
We considered that scenario. The ZonePlayers have an encryption key between them, and if you're in a college network
and in the same dorm but don't want to share your music collections, the systems won't allow the two to
intercommunicate.
But if I were interested, I could.
You could for formats that are not DRM-protected. If you were playing an MP3 stream, you could link it into another
room and play it, yes.
Sonos get any buzz at the Digital Music Summit last week?
Quite a bit. Ted Cohen of EMI was raving about us during his keynote. He stopped by our booth with somebody new about
five times. We're asking him to be part of our beta program to try out the system. We're a new company and so our first
impression has to be our best impression.
What can EMI or the music industry do for you?
What Ted liked about us is that this isn't a gateway product. We look at our product as a consumer electronics device,
not as a PC peripheral. We're not relying exclusively upon a PC or Mac.
We are big supporters of DRM. However you look at it, the artists have to be paid. IT's not sustainable if they're
not. The challenge is getting that industry to getting understand the computer industry a little better so that there's
a good solution that works. Apple as one solution, and Microsoft DRM is another, but you're out of luck if want to play
a song with Microsoft DRM on an iPod.
All these kinds of competing DRMs just extend the longevity of MP3 and the open formats. So our focus out of that
conference and the interest out of EMI for us is an open DRM that we could embrace so make them happy and
comfortable.
Open DRM? You mean cross-platform?
Yeah. One DRM that's usable and cross-vendor formats. We're in the Betamax-VHS wars right now. Those wars don't
benefit consumers or content producers. The industry has got to mature beyond that. One of the parties that can push
that is the people who produce the content.
Sonos won a Best of Audio award at last month's Consumer Electronics Association awards competition last
month. Not too shabby.
That was beyond our most hopeful expectations. We're pretty proud.
What other kinds of devices might we eventually see coming through the Sonos pipeline?
We're pretty focused on getting this product out the door and getting a lot of happy customers right now. It's just
the very beginning of this industry. DRM is a major topic, how you work with the music industry in home entertainment -
there are just a lot of interesting areas.
J.D. Lasica is author of the upcoming book Darknet: Hollywood's War on the Digital Generation.
Does anyone know how the "internet radio" features of Sonos work? I'm looking for something that can play more or les any random internet radio station throughout the house. Thanks.
"How big is your staff?"
Ho ho ho :D
Is that his Senior high school photo or what?
REPLY TO TODD:
---Todd, the Sonos system user interface on the hand held Controller, includes an Internet Radio menu, provided with a pre-set list of high quality Internet Radio streams of various genres.
You may also customize your Internet Radio listening experience by adding your own favorite stations to the "Favorites" menu by entering the source URL.
Sonos supports MP3 Internet Radio streams and is working to support other streaming formats.
John S.
Sonos Technical Support
I like that these guys are raising the bar for what a digital audio system looks like.
First, they've put the display where it belongs: on the remote. Not on a computer. Not on a tiny display that you're squinting at from across the room, and not on a TV (why do I need a TV to play my music !?).
Second, they've realized that for any decent-sized library, you need good navigation controls. The (potentially patent-infringing) scrollwheel is, of course, fantastic for this. Typing in the name of an artist as if you're writing a txt-message is not.
Third, it (supposedly) handles multiple rooms playing music from multiple sources. Some systems handle multiple rooms well, but require a designated "library" computer. Some support multiple library computers, but can't play in multiple rooms. This does both.
Fourth, they're basing this on higher-speed 802.11g.
Finally, though obviously inspired by the Apple/Bose aesthetic, it's pretty nice looking. I wouldn't be ashamed to have one sitting in my living room.
So what's not to like?
First, it doesn't handle iTMS music. And probably nothing but Apple gear ever will. That's unfortunate, but it isn't really the fault of Sonos.
Second, they need to support a lossless format like FLAC and/or Apple Lossless.
Third, I don't get their price point. A single player and a remote will run you $900, which is way more the "consumer-level" offerrings like the SqueezeBox and the SoundBridge. Perhaps they're going after the Bose demographic? Personally, I'd rather have control over my amplification, but I can see how their setup is simpler (and the auto-detection of connected components is slick).
I'd say that if this were a bit less (say $300 for each component), I'd snap a system up, but in reality, I'll probably at least wait to see what comes out of MacWorld.
But none-the-less, these guys deserve kudos for bringing out a way cool product.
1. I see now that every player has audio outs. Cool!
2. The Mac software is pretty minimal compared to the PC stuff. Typical, but unfortunate.
This system looks promising, but I don't see how they're addressing the TV/entertainment room. Most customers who purchase this type of system will probably already have a high-end surround sound system in their entertainment room.
It seems like a waste to spend $500 on an amplified ZonePlayer for a room that already has a decent receiver/amplifier and more speakers than the ZonePlayer would know what to do with! And customers won't want to add a non-Sonosnet solution into the mix just to get their digital music to this room.
From the interview and their web site I get the impression that Sonos is a user-centered company so they probably already came to this realization. My guess is they'll have an amp-less version in the near future.
Looking over the sonos website and i'm impressed. What they appear to be doing (and more importantly, the way they are trying to do it) is pretty much what i've been waiting for someone to do.
It's too bad about the price though. For a student like me it's way too high.
A few questions:
- Doesn't Sonos have a company blog?
- Will this be available in Europe?
- Can you have several Sonos Controllers? If not, it's a bit limited to singles with big houses.
I agree with some of the precedent comments, it's a bit expensive for the functionnality.
I just came back to post some questions about the product, only to find that Vincent has just asked them all!
Specifically, will is be available in Europe and is it possible to use two controllers in one system? For example, i can imagine the situation where one person is in the den and another person is in the garage, each with their own ZonePlayer listening to their own tunes. But if they want to change song or something then they will both need a controller. Is this possible?
Deal breaker:
- No optical out.
Otherwise it looks dope.
One more thing, does it play apple lossless files by any chance?
The more i read about this system the more i like it.
I asked Sonos about multiple controllers, and they said you can have up to 32 of them, along with 32 of the ZonePlayer amplifier units.
I third the question about multiple controllers. This is a critical feature for me. I've been envisioning the perfect setup for years now and the key was a system that didn't need a computer to serve up the audio (I've rid myself of all my desktops and I'm 100% on laptops now). Once the Buffalo GigaStation hits the US I'm re-ripping my audio collection in lossless and giving this thing a shot!
Please add UWB!
http://www.pulsepipe.com
Thanks everyone for your interest in Sonos!
Great questions:
a) Multiple Controllers. The Sonos Digital Music System supports up to 32 controllers in simultaneous use. All controllers show the state of the system in real-time.
b) Europe - we will commence European distribution in March of 2005.
c) Mac OSX Support. We will provide Mac and PC software which aids the setup process. PC users will also get a full blown desktop controller. In the early part of '05 Sonos will release a Mac Controller which will have feature parity with the PC controller.
d) Lossless Music formats. Support for a lossless format will be added in an upcoming software release. Trigger an update from any controller and the entire system is updated.
Feel free to ask more questions here or visit us @ http://www.sonos.com (800-680-2345).
Thanks, Chris.
--
Sonos Technical Support
Thanks everyone for your interest in Sonos!
Great questions:
a) Multiple Controllers. The Sonos Digital Music System supports up to 32 controllers in simultaneous use. All controllers show the state of the system in real-time.
b) Europe - we will commence European distribution in March of 2005.
c) Mac OSX Support. We will provide Mac and PC software which aids the setup process. PC users will also get a full blown desktop controller. In the early part of '05 Sonos will release a Mac Controller which will have feature parity with the PC controller.
d) Lossless Music formats. Support for a lossless format will be added in an upcoming software release. Trigger an update from any controller and the entire system is updated.
Feel free to ask more questions here or visit us @ http://www.sonos.com (800-680-2345).
Thanks, Chris.
--
Sonos Technical Support
Hi Chris of ZonePlayer.
I second other posts about cost and compatability with existing sound systems.
In my apartment we have two stereos. My partner and I would love to connect our computer to them. We tried AirPort Express but the lack of a remote is a big problem.
I would gladly over the $150 to have a Sonos controller. We don't want to use our computer as a remote control anymore. The Sonos controller's design is beautiful---the scroll-wheel and the color screen! Definitely the best controller I've seen.
Are there any plans for making the Sonos controller available to work without a Zone Player? We all have digital music on our computers. Many of us interested in the controller already have home theatre systems and don't want redundant equipment.
Sell us the controller seperate, as an independent unit. your product to control our computers or something and then when we're hooked or interested, we'll add more ZonePlayers.
Thanks,
Bryan
Hey all!
I'm behind Sonos for creating the best .mp3 player (soon to be) on the market and plan on buying an "Introductory Bundle" when it's released. Where I feel it's falling short however is:
- 30,000 track limit ceiling (an iPod photo scales to more than that based on 128kb and 1 minute tracks, as opposed to the 15,000 they promote when using 128kb and 4 minute tracks... it's not the track length, focus on the fact that an iPod can index more tracks with it's firmware and this is supposed to replace your home stereo system)
- No ID3 "Relative Volume Adjustment" support (if your tracks aren't relatively at equal volume, Sonos doesn't natively support the ID3 spec which was created to help the situation)
Again, they're doing a great job (from everything I've read), but the above two items are certainly something to be addressed. Volume more than capacity for the moment, as I do not potentially want to have to manually adjust the volume between each song.
Hi All,
Re: Bryan's request for a standalone controller.
Sonos has no plans to get into the generic remote control business. Our Controller relies on a great deal of smart software running in each ZonePlayer to make it work the way it does. Given it only works with Sonos equipment the UI design has been optimized for its function - and hence delivers the user experience Art is looking forward to...
re: Art's questions:
30,000 track limit: We had to set the v1.0 spec somewhere. It landed @ 30,000 tracks. For the past three months we've been feature locked for our v1.0 release. The goal is to provide as rock solid a product at ship as humanly possible. Product Management are now working on the v1+ feature set - this is on the table for discussion.
ID3 "Relative Volume Adjustment": This feature did not make the v1.0 cut. It is also under consideration for the v1+ release.
I can assure you our engineers are eager to work on the fun features - we've been hammering them for months on reliability!
Chris.
Hey Chris,
I hear ya... there needs to be scope when a v1.0 spec is created. And it's good Sonos stuck to it in order to get its product out at a pace better late than never.
The 30,000 track limit isn't really a problem initially (since the iPod has already proven this plateau can technically be surpassed whenever Sonos sets its mind to it); honestly I was pretty amazed however that "Relative Volume Adjustment" wasn't in the v1.0 spec. I mean... this is a major oversight out of the gate. If volumes vary greatly amongst albums, boy will it not be fun to have to manually adjust volume on playlists. "Relative Volume Adjustment" has been an ID3 frame since 1999.
Again, I'm going to buy your product (it's been on order since July), but words phrases like "It is also under consideration for the v1+ release" make me cringe. Why would this not be a no-brainer for the first update? "Consideration?" C'mon now... tell us it's a definite, as it would make the experience of listening much smoother and acceptable.
See ya!
I would like clarification on the upcoming support for lossless formats. I asked this same question through your website and was told that your "plan for Lossless formats is to include whichever one (WMA or AAC) has the widest industry usage." Are you saying that you will definitely support Apple Lossless, or is that still up in the air? Thanks!
I just bought the starter package (two zone players, one controller) and I'm happy to say that it has met my expectations. A few of minor gripes:
1) There does not seem to be any way to route the audio from the desktop controller that runs on my PC to my computer speakers - i.e. you need to have one of your ZonePlayers in the same room as your "host" computer.
2) The color display on the controller is great but it would nice to see some options to change the colors, change the skins, customize the layout, etc.
3) I'd like to have the ability to pull up more meta data about the song: Year, addtional Comments, etc.
4) I agree with earlier comments that there should be a cheaper "amp-less" zone player that you could plug into an existing stereo system.
5) On the Music Library I'd like to see some support for subscribing to PodCasts.
Overall this thing works as advertised. I'm convinced that this is how everyone will be listening to music in the house a few years from now.